What do you think about CP in PvP?

VaranisArano

RighteousBacon wrote: »

Baranthus wrote: »

CP gives more opportunity to 'refine' and really personalise your character and their playstyle. I played for 2 years in non-CP and it was ok but qute boring. I Like tinkering with the CP and love it when sometimes it works out like I want and suddenly i've got better sustain or more damage etc etc. I think they should be capped though.

The reason non cp is boring is because it’s hardly played. Today’s players have become so reliant on their cp that they can’t handle getting killed by a 300 cp player in non cp campaign. They feel entitled to their cp because they’ve simply been logged in the game longer. There are a lot of quality low cp players but they can’t 1vX in cp campaigns because it’s filled with 690’s. Then they go to non-cp and win every fight they get in. The problem is, since non cp is so empty they only run into like 4 fights in an hour

Getting killed by a CP 300 players in No CP is exactly the same as getting killed by a CP 690 or a CP 160 or a CP 10, right? It's no CP. Its not like CP gained is a good indication of skill - its an indication of experience and time spent in game. So why would players in no CP have a problem with that? That's sort of like complaining about getting wrecked by someone's low level alt in Kyne.

Oh. But the poor low CP skilled players can't 1vX in CP campaigns. Not like they can't do other things and be just fine. But they can't 1vX so the game is broken for them. How awful.

lao

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

lao wrote: »

CP campaign is far superior. it allows for more build variety and its better to 1vX with CP cos the burst dmg is higher. yes you also die quicker but that only means the margin for error is smaller which results in a higher skill ceiling.

LoL, just put points into the counter cp trees and that "burst" is gone.

while that is true to some extend it totally ignores the grand picture. you get alot of sustain from CP thus allowing your builds to focus much more on dmg. that together with the dmg you get from CP results in the average dps beeing alot higher. all no cp does is take out the majority of sets essentially leaving you with only a couple truely viable builds for every class. dont fool yourself thinking no cp is harder to play. it clearly is alot easier. you can sustain yourself in no cp just fine just like you would in CP. the only difference is that the dmg incoming and outgoing is alot lower essentially giving everyone more time to react to things and thus a much bigger error margin as its alot more forgiving. no cp is literally the OAP campaign.

RighteousBacon

VaranisArano wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

Baranthus wrote: »

CP gives more opportunity to 'refine' and really personalise your character and their playstyle. I played for 2 years in non-CP and it was ok but qute boring. I Like tinkering with the CP and love it when sometimes it works out like I want and suddenly i've got better sustain or more damage etc etc. I think they should be capped though.

The reason non cp is boring is because it’s hardly played. Today’s players have become so reliant on their cp that they can’t handle getting killed by a 300 cp player in non cp campaign. They feel entitled to their cp because they’ve simply been logged in the game longer. There are a lot of quality low cp players but they can’t 1vX in cp campaigns because it’s filled with 690’s. Then they go to non-cp and win every fight they get in. The problem is, since non cp is so empty they only run into like 4 fights in an hour

Getting killed by a CP 300 players in No CP is exactly the same as getting killed by a CP 690 or a CP 160 or a CP 10, right? It's no CP. Its not like CP gained is a good indication of skill - its an indication of experience and time spent in game. So why would players in no CP have a problem with that? That's sort of like complaining about getting wrecked by someone's low level alt in Kyne.

Oh. But the poor low CP skilled players can't 1vX in CP campaigns. Not like they can't do other things and be just fine. But they can't 1vX so the game is broken for them. How awful.

Your response is kind of confusing me. Lemme just give you this. Say you're in Vivec, in the middle of a field, you only have 300 cp, and you somehow get into a 1v1 with a 690 cp player. You get killed easily, it's obvious you're no match for this guy. You then go into Sotha Sil (non-cp) and happen to run into the same exact 690 from before, woah what are the chances. You two fight for a good minute and you happen to win this time. You're feeling good about yourself so you keep playing non cp but you can't find anyone to fight...where's everybody at? You check the population bars on sotha sil and they're all empty...no wonder you can't find anyone to fight. You go back to vivec so you can actually play the game; however, you know for a fact you're just gonna get destroyed by high cp players, feels bad man. Now, would you not feel just a bit cheated? Does it really seem right that low cp players who enjoy pvp are forced to join the zerg if they wanna go up against 690's?

tplink3r1

The game overall is a lot better with it. The game is already very short when it comes to progression, and removing it would make me less likely to play it.

VaranisArano

RighteousBacon wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

Baranthus wrote: »

CP gives more opportunity to 'refine' and really personalise your character and their playstyle. I played for 2 years in non-CP and it was ok but qute boring. I Like tinkering with the CP and love it when sometimes it works out like I want and suddenly i've got better sustain or more damage etc etc. I think they should be capped though.

The reason non cp is boring is because it’s hardly played. Today’s players have become so reliant on their cp that they can’t handle getting killed by a 300 cp player in non cp campaign. They feel entitled to their cp because they’ve simply been logged in the game longer. There are a lot of quality low cp players but they can’t 1vX in cp campaigns because it’s filled with 690’s. Then they go to non-cp and win every fight they get in. The problem is, since non cp is so empty they only run into like 4 fights in an hour

Getting killed by a CP 300 players in No CP is exactly the same as getting killed by a CP 690 or a CP 160 or a CP 10, right? It's no CP. Its not like CP gained is a good indication of skill - its an indication of experience and time spent in game. So why would players in no CP have a problem with that? That's sort of like complaining about getting wrecked by someone's low level alt in Kyne.

Oh. But the poor low CP skilled players can't 1vX in CP campaigns. Not like they can't do other things and be just fine. But they can't 1vX so the game is broken for them. How awful.

Your response is kind of confusing me. Lemme just give you this. Say you're in Vivec, in the middle of a field, you only have 300 cp, and you somehow get into a 1v1 with a 690 cp player. You get killed easily, it's obvious you're no match for this guy. You then go into Sotha Sil (non-cp) and happen to run into the same exact 690 from before, woah what are the chances. You two fight for a good minute and you happen to win this time. You're feeling good about yourself so you keep playing non cp but you can't find anyone to fight...where's everybody at? You check the population bars on sotha sil and they're all empty...no wonder you can't find anyone to fight. You go back to vivec so you can actually play the game; however, you know for a fact you're just gonna get destroyed by high cp players, feels bad man. Now, would you not feel just a bit cheated? Does it really seem right that low cp players who enjoy pvp are forced to join the zerg if they wanna go up against 690's?

See, while your situation you describe here makes sense, that wasn't the scenario I was responding to. The scenario I responded to posited that CP 690 players can't handle losing to CP 300 players on the No-CP campaign. That's more of an elitism problem than a skill thing right there. In No CP campaigns, you shouldn't be expecting your extra time in game (represented by CP here) to automatically translate to skill in PVP. That's not how it works in No CP campaigns. You are all the same level effectively, so there's no point to CP 690 players whining.

Then, you switched to talking about 1vXing. Not that a CP 300 player will be destroyed by the same CP 690 player he could kill in a No CP campaign. 1vXing. A CP 300 player can do just fine in most playstyles in Vivec, but if he doesn't have the CP for a 1vX build, maybe that's a playstyle he should steer clear of until he does. That's not a "A CP 300 player can't ever play in the CP campaign he'll be destroyed!" problem, that's a "Look, that playstyle is pretty reliant on having maxed CPs, maybe pick something that isn't reliant on max CP" problem. There are plenty of other playstyles that a CP 300 player can enjoy in Vivec, I certainly managed just fine as a healer and there are plenty of people in my organized raid below CP 690 who seem to manage just fine. (1vXing and other permablock tank builds are pretty reliant on CP, as seen by their recent proliferation in CP Battlegrounds.)


As for your situation described here, look. I'm not going to claim that CP makes anyone a better player or a better PVPer. Heck, I got my CP mostly from PVE and started PVP sometime in the CP 400s or thereabouts. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see a CP 300 destroy a CP 690 in the no-CP campaign. For one thing, No CP takes a slightly different build than CP PVP. On the other hand, superior skill is a huge factor, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a skilled CP 300 opponent destroy a CP 690 opponent in CP PVP either. (I'm sure that I've been soundly beaten by opponents of much less CP than I, since I'm not a great 1v1 player despite being CP 690) Once we get to the point of hypothetically, if two opponents of equal skill and unequal CP met...we're pretty darned hypothetical and I'm bored of it.

Player skill can compensate for a lack of CP. Plenty of times, player skill is the determining factor in a victory or loss, even in CP PVP. Common sense should also play a factor. If you don't have the CP for a playstyle like 1vXing, maybe you shouldn't 1vX. Find a different playstyle until you have more CP and can start 1vXing comfortably.

Waffennacht

I remember when I was v4 and I was so happy to kill a v8

lao

VaranisArano wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

Baranthus wrote: »

CP gives more opportunity to 'refine' and really personalise your character and their playstyle. I played for 2 years in non-CP and it was ok but qute boring. I Like tinkering with the CP and love it when sometimes it works out like I want and suddenly i've got better sustain or more damage etc etc. I think they should be capped though.

The reason non cp is boring is because it’s hardly played. Today’s players have become so reliant on their cp that they can’t handle getting killed by a 300 cp player in non cp campaign. They feel entitled to their cp because they’ve simply been logged in the game longer. There are a lot of quality low cp players but they can’t 1vX in cp campaigns because it’s filled with 690’s. Then they go to non-cp and win every fight they get in. The problem is, since non cp is so empty they only run into like 4 fights in an hour

Getting killed by a CP 300 players in No CP is exactly the same as getting killed by a CP 690 or a CP 160 or a CP 10, right? It's no CP. Its not like CP gained is a good indication of skill - its an indication of experience and time spent in game. So why would players in no CP have a problem with that? That's sort of like complaining about getting wrecked by someone's low level alt in Kyne.

Oh. But the poor low CP skilled players can't 1vX in CP campaigns. Not like they can't do other things and be just fine. But they can't 1vX so the game is broken for them. How awful.

Your response is kind of confusing me. Lemme just give you this. Say you're in Vivec, in the middle of a field, you only have 300 cp, and you somehow get into a 1v1 with a 690 cp player. You get killed easily, it's obvious you're no match for this guy. You then go into Sotha Sil (non-cp) and happen to run into the same exact 690 from before, woah what are the chances. You two fight for a good minute and you happen to win this time. You're feeling good about yourself so you keep playing non cp but you can't find anyone to fight...where's everybody at? You check the population bars on sotha sil and they're all empty...no wonder you can't find anyone to fight. You go back to vivec so you can actually play the game; however, you know for a fact you're just gonna get destroyed by high cp players, feels bad man. Now, would you not feel just a bit cheated? Does it really seem right that low cp players who enjoy pvp are forced to join the zerg if they wanna go up against 690's?

See, while your situation you describe here makes sense, that wasn't the scenario I was responding to. The scenario I responded to posited that CP 690 players can't handle losing to CP 300 players on the No-CP campaign. That's more of an elitism problem than a skill thing right there. In No CP campaigns, you shouldn't be expecting your extra time in game (represented by CP here) to automatically translate to skill in PVP. That's not how it works in No CP campaigns. You are all the same level effectively, so there's no point to CP 690 players whining.

Then, you switched to talking about 1vXing. Not that a CP 300 player will be destroyed by the same CP 690 player he could kill in a No CP campaign. 1vXing. A CP 300 player can do just fine in most playstyles in Vivec, but if he doesn't have the CP for a 1vX build, maybe that's a playstyle he should steer clear of until he does. That's not a "A CP 300 player can't ever play in the CP campaign he'll be destroyed!" problem, that's a "Look, that playstyle is pretty reliant on having maxed CPs, maybe pick something that isn't reliant on max CP" problem. There are plenty of other playstyles that a CP 300 player can enjoy in Vivec, I certainly managed just fine as a healer and there are plenty of people in my organized raid below CP 690 who seem to manage just fine. (1vXing and other permablock tank builds are pretty reliant on CP, as seen by their recent proliferation in CP Battlegrounds.)


As for your situation described here, look. I'm not going to claim that CP makes anyone a better player or a better PVPer. Heck, I got my CP mostly from PVE and started PVP sometime in the CP 400s or thereabouts. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see a CP 300 destroy a CP 690 in the no-CP campaign. For one thing, No CP takes a slightly different build than CP PVP. On the other hand, superior skill is a huge factor, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a skilled CP 300 opponent destroy a CP 690 opponent in CP PVP either. (I'm sure that I've been soundly beaten by opponents of much less CP than I, since I'm not a great 1v1 player despite being CP 690) Once we get to the point of hypothetically, if two opponents of equal skill and unequal CP met...we're pretty darned hypothetical and I'm bored of it.

Player skill can compensate for a lack of CP. Plenty of times, player skill is the determining factor in a victory or loss, even in CP PVP. Common sense should also play a factor. If you don't have the CP for a playstyle like 1vXing, maybe you shouldn't 1vX. Find a different playstyle until you have more CP and can start 1vXing comfortably.

too bad there is not a single playstyle other than 1vX, 2vX maybe 3vX a skilled player will ever find remotely enjoyable in this game. there is a reason why all the good players in this game are solo/small scale players. large group pvp in this game is awful and for potatoes only.

however i dont think cp grind should be lowered. it can stay the way it is so all the pve/progression nerds have something to do. they should however give everyone entering a cp campaign automatically max cp while he is in cyrodiil/ic. simple fix that is completely justified. its already bad enough they force pvpers to do the crappy undaunted grind. dont force us to grind for cp aswell as all we wanna do is kill each other.

MurderMostFoul

CP is fine for PvE. I don't even mind it for Cyrodiil where there are PvE elements and it's all just a zerg fest anyways.

But in small-scale, like BGs, where balance and pace are under a microscope, CP harms the PvP experience. Fights become such a slog with the ease of achieving extreme tankiness. Also, CPs make balance a constantly moving target as the cap increases over time. Why subject the game to this? We've already seen ZOS forced into one major CP overhaul (Morrowind), and I'm sure we'll see more. Again, that's fine in PvE where a sense of progression is important, but please, don't put PvPers through it.

Kolache

With CP battlegrounds and dead no-CP campaigns it makes it impossible for me to lure semi-casual MMO friends to come PvP with me in ESO. I mean it was already hard enough explaining to them why they couldn't see some attacks to block or why they couldn't significantly damage some players with the right/wrong set combinations. Add "you're going to need to play for X-days/hours before you can have fun in PvP"? Not a chance.

Just had this conversation recently with a buddy that has jumped in with me just to PvP in games like WoW, SWTOR, GW2, AoC, etc... it's depressing, even for someone with capped CP and access to plenty of sets. This game could be luring other MMO players looking for good PvP if they could jump into it fairly quickly but instead ESO appears to be heading in a direction that's likely to discourage them from starting.

What's odd is that with 1T and world scaling you'd think ZOS would have a good idea of what works for making the game more accessible to a wider audience. Yet PvE is easier than ever, and PvP is harder than ever (to get started). All because of CP. Currently we appear to be on course for the cliché MMO PvP where eventually only the same premades get to fight with each other. Catering to veterans over new players in PvP is an inevitable community death due to attrition.

MurderMostFoul

Kolache wrote: »

This game could be luring other MMO players looking for good PvP if they could jump into it fairly quickly but instead ESO appears to be heading in a direction that's likely to discourage them from starting.

So many MMO players play these games for end-game PvP. Yet, ZOS has shut the door in their faces with CP. ESO has some of the most enjoyable PvP in the MMO market right now. It could be a draw for new players if it didn't take months of reasonable play to actually be competitive.

lao

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

This game could be luring other MMO players looking for good PvP if they could jump into it fairly quickly but instead ESO appears to be heading in a direction that's likely to discourage them from starting.

So many MMO players play these games for end-game PvP. Yet, ZOS has shut the door in their faces with CP. ESO has some of the most enjoyable PvP in the MMO market right now. It could be a draw for new players if it didn't take months of reasonable play to actually be competitive.

the problem isnt CP. CP make the game infinity times better and massively raise the skill ceiling compared to no CP. the problem is that ZOS forces PvPers to grind CP when they really shouldnt have to. massive grind is for PvErs, they enjoy that stuff so let them have it but the very second you step into cyrodiil you should have max CP until you leave again. this really isnt rocket science.

MurderMostFoul

lao wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

This game could be luring other MMO players looking for good PvP if they could jump into it fairly quickly but instead ESO appears to be heading in a direction that's likely to discourage them from starting.

So many MMO players play these games for end-game PvP. Yet, ZOS has shut the door in their faces with CP. ESO has some of the most enjoyable PvP in the MMO market right now. It could be a draw for new players if it didn't take months of reasonable play to actually be competitive.

CP make the game infinity times better

Sound argument.

Waffennacht

@MurderMostFoul are you the same murdermostfoul I've seen in BGs?

MurderMostFoul

Waffennacht wrote: »

@MurderMostFoul are you the same murdermostfoul I've seen in BGs?

I believe so.

BroanBeast1215

RighteousBacon wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

Baranthus wrote: »

CP gives more opportunity to 'refine' and really personalise your character and their playstyle. I played for 2 years in non-CP and it was ok but qute boring. I Like tinkering with the CP and love it when sometimes it works out like I want and suddenly i've got better sustain or more damage etc etc. I think they should be capped though.

The reason non cp is boring is because it’s hardly played. Today’s players have become so reliant on their cp that they can’t handle getting killed by a 300 cp player in non cp campaign. They feel entitled to their cp because they’ve simply been logged in the game longer. There are a lot of quality low cp players but they can’t 1vX in cp campaigns because it’s filled with 690’s. Then they go to non-cp and win every fight they get in. The problem is, since non cp is so empty they only run into like 4 fights in an hour

Getting killed by a CP 300 players in No CP is exactly the same as getting killed by a CP 690 or a CP 160 or a CP 10, right? It's no CP. Its not like CP gained is a good indication of skill - its an indication of experience and time spent in game. So why would players in no CP have a problem with that? That's sort of like complaining about getting wrecked by someone's low level alt in Kyne.

Oh. But the poor low CP skilled players can't 1vX in CP campaigns. Not like they can't do other things and be just fine. But they can't 1vX so the game is broken for them. How awful.

Your response is kind of confusing me. Lemme just give you this. Say you're in Vivec, in the middle of a field, you only have 300 cp, and you somehow get into a 1v1 with a 690 cp player. You get killed easily, it's obvious you're no match for this guy. You then go into Sotha Sil (non-cp) and happen to run into the same exact 690 from before, woah what are the chances. You two fight for a good minute and you happen to win this time. You're feeling good about yourself so you keep playing non cp but you can't find anyone to fight...where's everybody at? You check the population bars on sotha sil and they're all empty...no wonder you can't find anyone to fight. You go back to vivec so you can actually play the game; however, you know for a fact you're just gonna get destroyed by high cp players, feels bad man. Now, would you not feel just a bit cheated? Does it really seem right that low cp players who enjoy pvp are forced to join the zerg if they wanna go up against 690's?

lol

implying that anyone whos at 300cp cant kill a 690cp....what?

BroanBeast1215

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

This game could be luring other MMO players looking for good PvP if they could jump into it fairly quickly but instead ESO appears to be heading in a direction that's likely to discourage them from starting.

So many MMO players play these games for end-game PvP. Yet, ZOS has shut the door in their faces with CP. ESO has some of the most enjoyable PvP in the MMO market right now. It could be a draw for new players if it didn't take months of reasonable play to actually be competitive.

then it wouldn't be the same PvP you now enjoy.

get it?

RighteousBacon

VaranisArano wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

Baranthus wrote: »

CP gives more opportunity to 'refine' and really personalise your character and their playstyle. I played for 2 years in non-CP and it was ok but qute boring. I Like tinkering with the CP and love it when sometimes it works out like I want and suddenly i've got better sustain or more damage etc etc. I think they should be capped though.

The reason non cp is boring is because it’s hardly played. Today’s players have become so reliant on their cp that they can’t handle getting killed by a 300 cp player in non cp campaign. They feel entitled to their cp because they’ve simply been logged in the game longer. There are a lot of quality low cp players but they can’t 1vX in cp campaigns because it’s filled with 690’s. Then they go to non-cp and win every fight they get in. The problem is, since non cp is so empty they only run into like 4 fights in an hour

Getting killed by a CP 300 players in No CP is exactly the same as getting killed by a CP 690 or a CP 160 or a CP 10, right? It's no CP. Its not like CP gained is a good indication of skill - its an indication of experience and time spent in game. So why would players in no CP have a problem with that? That's sort of like complaining about getting wrecked by someone's low level alt in Kyne.

Oh. But the poor low CP skilled players can't 1vX in CP campaigns. Not like they can't do other things and be just fine. But they can't 1vX so the game is broken for them. How awful.

Your response is kind of confusing me. Lemme just give you this. Say you're in Vivec, in the middle of a field, you only have 300 cp, and you somehow get into a 1v1 with a 690 cp player. You get killed easily, it's obvious you're no match for this guy. You then go into Sotha Sil (non-cp) and happen to run into the same exact 690 from before, woah what are the chances. You two fight for a good minute and you happen to win this time. You're feeling good about yourself so you keep playing non cp but you can't find anyone to fight...where's everybody at? You check the population bars on sotha sil and they're all empty...no wonder you can't find anyone to fight. You go back to vivec so you can actually play the game; however, you know for a fact you're just gonna get destroyed by high cp players, feels bad man. Now, would you not feel just a bit cheated? Does it really seem right that low cp players who enjoy pvp are forced to join the zerg if they wanna go up against 690's?

See, while your situation you describe here makes sense, that wasn't the scenario I was responding to. The scenario I responded to posited that CP 690 players can't handle losing to CP 300 players on the No-CP campaign. That's more of an elitism problem than a skill thing right there. In No CP campaigns, you shouldn't be expecting your extra time in game (represented by CP here) to automatically translate to skill in PVP. That's not how it works in No CP campaigns. You are all the same level effectively, so there's no point to CP 690 players whining.

Then, you switched to talking about 1vXing. Not that a CP 300 player will be destroyed by the same CP 690 player he could kill in a No CP campaign. 1vXing. A CP 300 player can do just fine in most playstyles in Vivec, but if he doesn't have the CP for a 1vX build, maybe that's a playstyle he should steer clear of until he does. That's not a "A CP 300 player can't ever play in the CP campaign he'll be destroyed!" problem, that's a "Look, that playstyle is pretty reliant on having maxed CPs, maybe pick something that isn't reliant on max CP" problem. There are plenty of other playstyles that a CP 300 player can enjoy in Vivec, I certainly managed just fine as a healer and there are plenty of people in my organized raid below CP 690 who seem to manage just fine. (1vXing and other permablock tank builds are pretty reliant on CP, as seen by their recent proliferation in CP Battlegrounds.)


As for your situation described here, look. I'm not going to claim that CP makes anyone a better player or a better PVPer. Heck, I got my CP mostly from PVE and started PVP sometime in the CP 400s or thereabouts. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see a CP 300 destroy a CP 690 in the no-CP campaign. For one thing, No CP takes a slightly different build than CP PVP. On the other hand, superior skill is a huge factor, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a skilled CP 300 opponent destroy a CP 690 opponent in CP PVP either. (I'm sure that I've been soundly beaten by opponents of much less CP than I, since I'm not a great 1v1 player despite being CP 690) Once we get to the point of hypothetically, if two opponents of equal skill and unequal CP met...we're pretty darned hypothetical and I'm bored of it.

Player skill can compensate for a lack of CP. Plenty of times, player skill is the determining factor in a victory or loss, even in CP PVP. Common sense should also play a factor. If you don't have the CP for a playstyle like 1vXing, maybe you shouldn't 1vX. Find a different playstyle until you have more CP and can start 1vXing comfortably.

I’m glad we’ve found some common ground here. I pretty much agree with everything you just said

RighteousBacon

Kolache wrote: »

With CP battlegrounds and dead no-CP campaigns it makes it impossible for me to lure semi-casual MMO friends to come PvP with me in ESO. I mean it was already hard enough explaining to them why they couldn't see some attacks to block or why they couldn't significantly damage some players with the right/wrong set combinations. Add "you're going to need to play for X-days/hours before you can have fun in PvP"? Not a chance.

Just had this conversation recently with a buddy that has jumped in with me just to PvP in games like WoW, SWTOR, GW2, AoC, etc... it's depressing, even for someone with capped CP and access to plenty of sets. This game could be luring other MMO players looking for good PvP if they could jump into it fairly quickly but instead ESO appears to be heading in a direction that's likely to discourage them from starting.

What's odd is that with 1T and world scaling you'd think ZOS would have a good idea of what works for making the game more accessible to a wider audience. Yet PvE is easier than ever, and PvP is harder than ever (to get started). All because of CP. Currently we appear to be on course for the cliché MMO PvP where eventually only the same premades get to fight with each other. Catering to veterans over new players in PvP is an inevitable community death due to attrition.

I have the exact same issue trying to get my friends to play again

MurderMostFoul

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

This game could be luring other MMO players looking for good PvP if they could jump into it fairly quickly but instead ESO appears to be heading in a direction that's likely to discourage them from starting.

So many MMO players play these games for end-game PvP. Yet, ZOS has shut the door in their faces with CP. ESO has some of the most enjoyable PvP in the MMO market right now. It could be a draw for new players if it didn't take months of reasonable play to actually be competitive.

then it wouldn't be the same PvP you now enjoy.

get it?

I agree, I would enjoy it more.

NyassaV

I like CP and I also don't mind non-CP but I prefer CP campaigns because I can actually sprint... That being said with tweaks to base game I'd be 100% happy with non CP

BroanBeast1215

Kolache wrote: »

With CP battlegrounds and dead no-CP campaigns it makes it impossible for me to lure semi-casual MMO friends to come PvP with me in ESO. I mean it was already hard enough explaining to them why they couldn't see some attacks to block or why they couldn't significantly damage some players with the right/wrong set combinations. Add "you're going to need to play for X-days/hours before you can have fun in PvP"? Not a chance.

Just had this conversation recently with a buddy that has jumped in with me just to PvP in games like WoW, SWTOR, GW2, AoC, etc... it's depressing, even for someone with capped CP and access to plenty of sets. This game could be luring other MMO players looking for good PvP if they could jump into it fairly quickly but instead ESO appears to be heading in a direction that's likely to discourage them from starting.

What's odd is that with 1T and world scaling you'd think ZOS would have a good idea of what works for making the game more accessible to a wider audience. Yet PvE is easier than ever, and PvP is harder than ever (to get started). All because of CP. Currently we appear to be on course for the cliché MMO PvP where eventually only the same premades get to fight with each other. Catering to veterans over new players in PvP is an inevitable community death due to attrition.

yep and constantly catering to the newbs and newcomers will drive away any kind of serious pvper from this already dying game. I watched it happen in EQ2.

RighteousBacon

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

With CP battlegrounds and dead no-CP campaigns it makes it impossible for me to lure semi-casual MMO friends to come PvP with me in ESO. I mean it was already hard enough explaining to them why they couldn't see some attacks to block or why they couldn't significantly damage some players with the right/wrong set combinations. Add "you're going to need to play for X-days/hours before you can have fun in PvP"? Not a chance.

Just had this conversation recently with a buddy that has jumped in with me just to PvP in games like WoW, SWTOR, GW2, AoC, etc... it's depressing, even for someone with capped CP and access to plenty of sets. This game could be luring other MMO players looking for good PvP if they could jump into it fairly quickly but instead ESO appears to be heading in a direction that's likely to discourage them from starting.

What's odd is that with 1T and world scaling you'd think ZOS would have a good idea of what works for making the game more accessible to a wider audience. Yet PvE is easier than ever, and PvP is harder than ever (to get started). All because of CP. Currently we appear to be on course for the cliché MMO PvP where eventually only the same premades get to fight with each other. Catering to veterans over new players in PvP is an inevitable community death due to attrition.

yep and constantly catering to the newbs and newcomers will drive away any kind of serious pvper from this already dying game. I watched it happen in EQ2.

I really don’t think tweeting the cp system or giving players max cp in cyrodil would “drive away any kind of serious pvper”

Bam_Bam

RighteousBacon wrote: »

Baranthus wrote: »

CP gives more opportunity to 'refine' and really personalise your character and their playstyle. I played for 2 years in non-CP and it was ok but qute boring. I Like tinkering with the CP and love it when sometimes it works out like I want and suddenly i've got better sustain or more damage etc etc. I think they should be capped though.

The reason non cp is boring is because it’s hardly played. Today’s players have become so reliant on their cp that they can’t handle getting killed by a 300 cp player in non cp campaign. They feel entitled to their cp because they’ve simply been logged in the game longer. There are a lot of quality low cp players but they can’t 1vX in cp campaigns because it’s filled with 690’s. Then they go to non-cp and win every fight they get in. The problem is, since non cp is so empty they only run into like 4 fights in an hour

Like I said in my post - I played for 2 years in non-CP. by hte end I felt like i was completely doing myself an injustice. There was very little build diversity - every having to run the same sets due to the lack of sustain (and that got even worse when they nerfed sustain). It was all very very bland. When I moved to CP, I was immediately in love with the options open to players -Say I wanted to build a stamina templar - I have the options to build for DPS or for survivability or, with enough knowledge, to make some funky hybrid. The better players all seem to migrate to CP campaigns and I don't believe that has anything to do with how populated a server is. It comes down to "Do I REALLY want to gimp my build and do away with hours of meticulous planning and theorycrafting? Or am I happy plonking on a couple of sets and jumping straight in?" non-CP campaigns are fun for a change, once in a blue moon. But I just feel like an idiot for not switching to CP campaigns straight away!

Bam_Bam

RighteousBacon wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

Baranthus wrote: »

CP gives more opportunity to 'refine' and really personalise your character and their playstyle. I played for 2 years in non-CP and it was ok but qute boring. I Like tinkering with the CP and love it when sometimes it works out like I want and suddenly i've got better sustain or more damage etc etc. I think they should be capped though.

The reason non cp is boring is because it’s hardly played. Today’s players have become so reliant on their cp that they can’t handle getting killed by a 300 cp player in non cp campaign. They feel entitled to their cp because they’ve simply been logged in the game longer. There are a lot of quality low cp players but they can’t 1vX in cp campaigns because it’s filled with 690’s. Then they go to non-cp and win every fight they get in. The problem is, since non cp is so empty they only run into like 4 fights in an hour

Getting killed by a CP 300 players in No CP is exactly the same as getting killed by a CP 690 or a CP 160 or a CP 10, right? It's no CP. Its not like CP gained is a good indication of skill - its an indication of experience and time spent in game. So why would players in no CP have a problem with that? That's sort of like complaining about getting wrecked by someone's low level alt in Kyne.

Oh. But the poor low CP skilled players can't 1vX in CP campaigns. Not like they can't do other things and be just fine. But they can't 1vX so the game is broken for them. How awful.

Your response is kind of confusing me. Lemme just give you this. Say you're in Vivec, in the middle of a field, you only have 300 cp, and you somehow get into a 1v1 with a 690 cp player. You get killed easily, it's obvious you're no match for this guy. You then go into Sotha Sil (non-cp) and happen to run into the same exact 690 from before, woah what are the chances. You two fight for a good minute and you happen to win this time. You're feeling good about yourself so you keep playing non cp but you can't find anyone to fight...where's everybody at? You check the population bars on sotha sil and they're all empty...no wonder you can't find anyone to fight. You go back to vivec so you can actually play the game; however, you know for a fact you're just gonna get destroyed by high cp players, feels bad man. Now, would you not feel just a bit cheated? Does it really seem right that low cp players who enjoy pvp are forced to join the zerg if they wanna go up against 690's?

I know this is a bit late in the day - but in Cyrodiil players are capped at around 230 CP. Whether they have 1000000 CP or not, they are ALL capped at 230-ish CP. (It's 5.32am and I haven't had the required coffee to remember such stuff lol).

ToRelax

Baranthus wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

Baranthus wrote: »

CP gives more opportunity to 'refine' and really personalise your character and their playstyle. I played for 2 years in non-CP and it was ok but qute boring. I Like tinkering with the CP and love it when sometimes it works out like I want and suddenly i've got better sustain or more damage etc etc. I think they should be capped though.

The reason non cp is boring is because it’s hardly played. Today’s players have become so reliant on their cp that they can’t handle getting killed by a 300 cp player in non cp campaign. They feel entitled to their cp because they’ve simply been logged in the game longer. There are a lot of quality low cp players but they can’t 1vX in cp campaigns because it’s filled with 690’s. Then they go to non-cp and win every fight they get in. The problem is, since non cp is so empty they only run into like 4 fights in an hour

Like I said in my post - I played for 2 years in non-CP. by hte end I felt like i was completely doing myself an injustice. There was very little build diversity - every having to run the same sets due to the lack of sustain (and that got even worse when they nerfed sustain). It was all very very bland. When I moved to CP, I was immediately in love with the options open to players -Say I wanted to build a stamina templar - I have the options to build for DPS or for survivability or, with enough knowledge, to make some funky hybrid. The better players all seem to migrate to CP campaigns and I don't believe that has anything to do with how populated a server is. It comes down to "Do I REALLY want to gimp my build and do away with hours of meticulous planning and theorycrafting? Or am I happy plonking on a couple of sets and jumping straight in?" non-CP campaigns are fun for a change, once in a blue moon. But I just feel like an idiot for not switching to CP campaigns straight away!

Sustain isn't the biggest difference between CP and non-CP since Morrowind.
Non-CP makes setups viable that otherwise wouldn't be because they rely on different damage types (that also means if hybrids where actually viable, it would be in non-CP).

Baranthus wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

Baranthus wrote: »

CP gives more opportunity to 'refine' and really personalise your character and their playstyle. I played for 2 years in non-CP and it was ok but qute boring. I Like tinkering with the CP and love it when sometimes it works out like I want and suddenly i've got better sustain or more damage etc etc. I think they should be capped though.

The reason non cp is boring is because it’s hardly played. Today’s players have become so reliant on their cp that they can’t handle getting killed by a 300 cp player in non cp campaign. They feel entitled to their cp because they’ve simply been logged in the game longer. There are a lot of quality low cp players but they can’t 1vX in cp campaigns because it’s filled with 690’s. Then they go to non-cp and win every fight they get in. The problem is, since non cp is so empty they only run into like 4 fights in an hour

Getting killed by a CP 300 players in No CP is exactly the same as getting killed by a CP 690 or a CP 160 or a CP 10, right? It's no CP. Its not like CP gained is a good indication of skill - its an indication of experience and time spent in game. So why would players in no CP have a problem with that? That's sort of like complaining about getting wrecked by someone's low level alt in Kyne.

Oh. But the poor low CP skilled players can't 1vX in CP campaigns. Not like they can't do other things and be just fine. But they can't 1vX so the game is broken for them. How awful.

Your response is kind of confusing me. Lemme just give you this. Say you're in Vivec, in the middle of a field, you only have 300 cp, and you somehow get into a 1v1 with a 690 cp player. You get killed easily, it's obvious you're no match for this guy. You then go into Sotha Sil (non-cp) and happen to run into the same exact 690 from before, woah what are the chances. You two fight for a good minute and you happen to win this time. You're feeling good about yourself so you keep playing non cp but you can't find anyone to fight...where's everybody at? You check the population bars on sotha sil and they're all empty...no wonder you can't find anyone to fight. You go back to vivec so you can actually play the game; however, you know for a fact you're just gonna get destroyed by high cp players, feels bad man. Now, would you not feel just a bit cheated? Does it really seem right that low cp players who enjoy pvp are forced to join the zerg if they wanna go up against 690's?

I know this is a bit late in the day - but in Cyrodiil players are capped at around 230 CP. Whether they have 1000000 CP or not, they are ALL capped at 230-ish CP. (It's 5.32am and I haven't had the required coffee to remember such stuff lol).

No.

Emma_Overload

Beardimus wrote: »

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

lao wrote: »

CP campaign is far superior. it allows for more build variety and its better to 1vX with CP cos the burst dmg is higher. yes you also die quicker but that only means the margin for error is smaller which results in a higher skill ceiling.

LoL, just put points into the counter cp trees and that "burst" is gone.
In CP you have:

- more ressources
- 1 click full bar heal cause of CP
- perma blocking
- perma roll dodging
- and many more annoying mechanisms

Why do you think duels against decent enemies take for ages? It's the CP - who is interested in fighting 1 enemy for 10 mins? i am not!

In no CP sieges hurt a lot, procs hurt, you need to watch your ressources, cant fight forever and you die way faster what leads to shorter fights - as @Arthg mentioned - 1vXers in no CP are real heroes.

Also agree that CP BGs was the biggest fail ever, i stopped playing them after they introduced CPs


But i get it that some ppl like the diversity and being able to make fun builds work!

Spot on, great summary.

I'm a huge convert. However many won't try it. Mainly as they cant adapt so die once and run back to CP.

Or it's this fear of loss of progress rubbish. You still keep your CP 'score/level' if you need that to keep you content, but surely game play pace etc are more important. And its undoubtedly better play in no-cp

People are stubborn tho and follow the herd. Heck I did till I tried no-cp in BG and felt the breath of fresh air. To be fair no-cp is even more suited to the intended small scale buzz of BG.

Lastly CP are WAY too skewed towards damage reduction is also the problem. DPS feel little different in CP but defence build get huge boost, asBG has shown.

Also to make sense of it all 15/14 kill deaths in BG was way more fun a match than 1/0 despite the outcome of the match the same

You're ignoring the fact that not everyone plays the same way you do. No-CP is a terrible experience if you constantly find yourself outnumbered like I do. With CP damage reduction, I can often wriggle out of bad situations or stall for time. No-CP is just a death sentence if you face even two good players.

BTW, if you think people only care about CP for bragging rights, you're the one talking "rubbish". Becoming as powerful as possible is the whole point of numerous activities in a game like this. It's the reason why I spent all last week grinding a dungeon I hate just to get a set of armor I wanted. This is just how MMOs work.

VaranisArano

Baranthus wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

Baranthus wrote: »

CP gives more opportunity to 'refine' and really personalise your character and their playstyle. I played for 2 years in non-CP and it was ok but qute boring. I Like tinkering with the CP and love it when sometimes it works out like I want and suddenly i've got better sustain or more damage etc etc. I think they should be capped though.

The reason non cp is boring is because it’s hardly played. Today’s players have become so reliant on their cp that they can’t handle getting killed by a 300 cp player in non cp campaign. They feel entitled to their cp because they’ve simply been logged in the game longer. There are a lot of quality low cp players but they can’t 1vX in cp campaigns because it’s filled with 690’s. Then they go to non-cp and win every fight they get in. The problem is, since non cp is so empty they only run into like 4 fights in an hour

Getting killed by a CP 300 players in No CP is exactly the same as getting killed by a CP 690 or a CP 160 or a CP 10, right? It's no CP. Its not like CP gained is a good indication of skill - its an indication of experience and time spent in game. So why would players in no CP have a problem with that? That's sort of like complaining about getting wrecked by someone's low level alt in Kyne.

Oh. But the poor low CP skilled players can't 1vX in CP campaigns. Not like they can't do other things and be just fine. But they can't 1vX so the game is broken for them. How awful.

Your response is kind of confusing me. Lemme just give you this. Say you're in Vivec, in the middle of a field, you only have 300 cp, and you somehow get into a 1v1 with a 690 cp player. You get killed easily, it's obvious you're no match for this guy. You then go into Sotha Sil (non-cp) and happen to run into the same exact 690 from before, woah what are the chances. You two fight for a good minute and you happen to win this time. You're feeling good about yourself so you keep playing non cp but you can't find anyone to fight...where's everybody at? You check the population bars on sotha sil and they're all empty...no wonder you can't find anyone to fight. You go back to vivec so you can actually play the game; however, you know for a fact you're just gonna get destroyed by high cp players, feels bad man. Now, would you not feel just a bit cheated? Does it really seem right that low cp players who enjoy pvp are forced to join the zerg if they wanna go up against 690's?

I know this is a bit late in the day - but in Cyrodiil players are capped at around 230 CP. Whether they have 1000000 CP or not, they are ALL capped at 230-ish CP. (It's 5.32am and I haven't had the required coffee to remember such stuff lol).

I think you mean to say that players are capped at 230 CP in each tree, or 690 CP total. But that's not the problem.

The problem people are discussing, with varying degrees of whether or not it is a problem, is whether or not players need a certain number of CP to be competitive in CP PVP. A max CP player will have more CP to put towards sustain/dps/survivability than a player with 300 CP, something that seems obviously although ZOS has tried to address that somewhat by frontloading the benefits of CP trees into the early CP.

So capping players isn't the issue, its whether or not you have to be at or near the CP cap in order to be competitive, aka how much CP grinding do you have to do before you are competitive on a stats level regardless of skill. I tend to think that player skill is a greater determining factor, i.e. a skilled player will overcome a CP deficit and an unskilled player will struggle regardless of max CP. But there's a lot of fudge factor in there for skilled players with low CP vs skilled players with high CP or the reverse with low skilled players benefiting from the "cushion" of high CP that there's a pretty substantial debate.

RighteousBacon

Baranthus wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

Baranthus wrote: »

CP gives more opportunity to 'refine' and really personalise your character and their playstyle. I played for 2 years in non-CP and it was ok but qute boring. I Like tinkering with the CP and love it when sometimes it works out like I want and suddenly i've got better sustain or more damage etc etc. I think they should be capped though.

The reason non cp is boring is because it’s hardly played. Today’s players have become so reliant on their cp that they can’t handle getting killed by a 300 cp player in non cp campaign. They feel entitled to their cp because they’ve simply been logged in the game longer. There are a lot of quality low cp players but they can’t 1vX in cp campaigns because it’s filled with 690’s. Then they go to non-cp and win every fight they get in. The problem is, since non cp is so empty they only run into like 4 fights in an hour

Getting killed by a CP 300 players in No CP is exactly the same as getting killed by a CP 690 or a CP 160 or a CP 10, right? It's no CP. Its not like CP gained is a good indication of skill - its an indication of experience and time spent in game. So why would players in no CP have a problem with that? That's sort of like complaining about getting wrecked by someone's low level alt in Kyne.

Oh. But the poor low CP skilled players can't 1vX in CP campaigns. Not like they can't do other things and be just fine. But they can't 1vX so the game is broken for them. How awful.

Your response is kind of confusing me. Lemme just give you this. Say you're in Vivec, in the middle of a field, you only have 300 cp, and you somehow get into a 1v1 with a 690 cp player. You get killed easily, it's obvious you're no match for this guy. You then go into Sotha Sil (non-cp) and happen to run into the same exact 690 from before, woah what are the chances. You two fight for a good minute and you happen to win this time. You're feeling good about yourself so you keep playing non cp but you can't find anyone to fight...where's everybody at? You check the population bars on sotha sil and they're all empty...no wonder you can't find anyone to fight. You go back to vivec so you can actually play the game; however, you know for a fact you're just gonna get destroyed by high cp players, feels bad man. Now, would you not feel just a bit cheated? Does it really seem right that low cp players who enjoy pvp are forced to join the zerg if they wanna go up against 690's?

I know this is a bit late in the day - but in Cyrodiil players are capped at around 230 CP. Whether they have 1000000 CP or not, they are ALL capped at 230-ish CP. (It's 5.32am and I haven't had the required coffee to remember such stuff lol).

Wat

rteezy

Easy fix : eliminate both cp and non co campaigns,open 3 or 4 new campaigns with a lower maximum players cap and everyone inside would have the same cp (200,300,690..whatever some theorycrafter woulf find the most balanced).create a new cp menu for for your "pvp cp build".


This way we would reduce the lag..and put everyone at equal cp.

As an add d bonus it would probably get some mmo pvp'rs to try/re join the game since the pvp cp grind was gone.

Kolache

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

yep and constantly catering to the newbs and newcomers will drive away any kind of serious pvper from this already dying game. I watched it happen in EQ2.

No offense but how can you use EQ2 as any serious comparison to anything when discussing previous PvP experiences? Was there ever, at any point, a thriving PvP community in that game? Maybe there was and I'm off-base.

Anyway, regarding newcomers and "serious pvpers", the vast majority of people I'd put into the "serious" category are existing veterans. Not many people these days will work through all the prep required to be competitive just to see if they might like ESO's PvP. If you have a system that will either keep veterans and discourage newcomers or a system that will encourage newcomers and lose veterans... only one of these has a future.

Then again, by your "dying game" content, I can see why you would just want to ride what's left into the ground without compromise. If that's the case then yeah I wouldn't want anything to change in that regard either. I still have hope for the game though. They've made some serious changes with things like getting rid of VRs and 1T that breathed a lot of life back into the game. I don't see why they couldn't do it again--I actually expect them to.