Current State of The Magicka Dragonknight (Magplars have a gripe too)

irstarkey57

Number 1. That's right, you guessed it. Both their sustain and competitive dos numbers rely on off balance. Without off balance our whips don't proc and if our whips don't proc, good luck getting halfway through a 3m health target skeleton. This leads in to number two.

Number 2. After maining a magicka dragon knight for nearly two years, I pull around 51k in trials on a static target (first boss in vMol for example.) Now, when I am told that I can't be in end game raids because other melee ranged dos (blasphemous stam dk's ;p ) are doing 65k dps, what is my argument? I can argue the off balance consumption because their heavy attacks will consume the proc as well as my whips but i can't argue 10-15k in dps. Especially when IMO, i work a lot harder for it rotation wise.

Possible Solutions and Ideas. Zos, please, please be very careful in your looking into off balance. The wrong move could make magic dk's extinct. I realize your past track record for leveling the playing field has been to nerf everything. It does't work, won't work, etc. DK's used to bring so much utility to the group that is just not needed anymore. Tanks can run engulfing flames, and hell, most sorcerers and magblades even have a fire enchant on on of their staves. You could argue they can still be helpful with chains but again, if tank is solid enough, they can chain...including the twins fight. The main issue I see is being ostracized from the inevitable elitist end game raiders ( not putting anyone down, I wouldn't want less dps on purpose either) because we aren't capable of pulling the same numbers. Perhaps offer a version of implosion like sorcerers? Buff some of the magicka morph skills? Our passives have been nerfed a few times now but magicka dk continues to basically stay the same through your content but have grown worse by indirect changes to the game...I.E. off balance.

The class needs some help guys...they need a way to be competitive in end game content again. Refusing to play a sorc!

PS. Sorry Magplars, you will have to make your own post. You guys have it bad too : / Also, ignore typos...phone and what not.

Qbiken

Agree on all points. The only class in the game that need off-balance to be viable (All other classes benefits from off-balance, but doesn´t really need it). In general DK´s need changes that helps their sustain.

Suggestion:

* Revert the changes made to Battle Roar and Helping Hands to pre-Morrowind state, so it scales of max resource instead of level.

* Either reduce the cost of all Dragonknight skills or give them a cost reduction passive when an enemy is affected by an ardent flame ability.

Minno

Qbiken wrote: »

Agree on all points. The only class in the game that need off-balance to be viable (All other classes benefits from off-balance, but doesn´t really need it). In general DK´s need changes that helps their sustain.

Suggestion:

* Revert the changes made to Battle Roar and Helping Hands to pre-Morrowind state, so it scales of max resource instead of level.

* Either reduce the cost of all Dragonknight skills or give them a cost reduction passive when an enemy is affected by an ardent flame ability.

DKs:
- If a dot is removed or expended, you should get mag/Stam back. That means purges, cloaks, and durations ended would cause dots to mean something for DKs.

- Return helping hands back to how it was.

- Fix chains so DK's can start using their major expedition source.

- Give another armor boost that runs passively (to mimic losing out on miss chance).
- fix dk bugs

Templars:

- make explosive charge a ground target ability. Let it be the escape tool Templars are asking for. Maybe instead of DMG, it boosts your resists with one morph boosting your allies resists.
- Dawn's wraith passive to increase your armor against the enemy that is affected by a DW spell.
- in addition to cost reduction passive, give templars mag back per ability use. Templars have been starving since 2014 (other threads back then said the same sustain issues as today).
- fix jabs/Jesus beam scaling issues (as promised by zos on pts!).


Basically make DKs and Templars choose other defense options to replace healing/block. Let us move/mitigate dmg and debuff players like we were intended to do!

Brutusmax1mus

Minno wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Agree on all points. The only class in the game that need off-balance to be viable (All other classes benefits from off-balance, but doesn´t really need it). In general DK´s need changes that helps their sustain.

Suggestion:

* Revert the changes made to Battle Roar and Helping Hands to pre-Morrowind state, so it scales of max resource instead of level.

* Either reduce the cost of all Dragonknight skills or give them a cost reduction passive when an enemy is affected by an ardent flame ability.

DKs:
- If a dot is removed or expended, you should get mag/Stam back. That means purges, cloaks, and durations ended would cause dots to mean something for DKs.

- Return helping hands back to how it was.

- Fix chains so DK's can start using their major expedition source.

- Give another armor boost that runs passively (to mimic losing out on miss chance).
- fix dk bugs

Templars:

- make explosive charge a ground target ability. Let it be the escape tool Templars are asking for. Maybe instead of DMG, it boosts your resists with one morph boosting your allies resists.
- Dawn's wraith passive to increase your armor against the enemy that is affected by a DW spell.
- in addition to cost reduction passive, give templars mag back per ability use. Templars have been starving since 2014 (other threads back then said the same sustain issues as today).
- fix jabs/Jesus beam scaling issues (as promised by zos on pts!).


Basically make DKs and Templars choose other defense options to replace healing/block. Let us move/mitigate dmg and debuff players like we were intended to do!

Disagree on helping hands. It was easy to effective on both pve and pvp. It would just reinforce holding block.

Minno

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Agree on all points. The only class in the game that need off-balance to be viable (All other classes benefits from off-balance, but doesn´t really need it). In general DK´s need changes that helps their sustain.

Suggestion:

* Revert the changes made to Battle Roar and Helping Hands to pre-Morrowind state, so it scales of max resource instead of level.

* Either reduce the cost of all Dragonknight skills or give them a cost reduction passive when an enemy is affected by an ardent flame ability.

DKs:
- If a dot is removed or expended, you should get mag/Stam back. That means purges, cloaks, and durations ended would cause dots to mean something for DKs.

- Return helping hands back to how it was.

- Fix chains so DK's can start using their major expedition source.

- Give another armor boost that runs passively (to mimic losing out on miss chance).
- fix dk bugs

Templars:

- make explosive charge a ground target ability. Let it be the escape tool Templars are asking for. Maybe instead of DMG, it boosts your resists with one morph boosting your allies resists.
- Dawn's wraith passive to increase your armor against the enemy that is affected by a DW spell.
- in addition to cost reduction passive, give templars mag back per ability use. Templars have been starving since 2014 (other threads back then said the same sustain issues as today).
- fix jabs/Jesus beam scaling issues (as promised by zos on pts!).


Basically make DKs and Templars choose other defense options to replace healing/block. Let us move/mitigate dmg and debuff players like we were intended to do!

Disagree on helping hands. It was easy to effective on both pve and pvp. It would just reinforce holding block.

I wouldn't take it off the table yet. Especially after seeing how they bring back block cost changes.

Ragnarock41

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Agree on all points. The only class in the game that need off-balance to be viable (All other classes benefits from off-balance, but doesn´t really need it). In general DK´s need changes that helps their sustain.

Suggestion:

* Revert the changes made to Battle Roar and Helping Hands to pre-Morrowind state, so it scales of max resource instead of level.

* Either reduce the cost of all Dragonknight skills or give them a cost reduction passive when an enemy is affected by an ardent flame ability.

DKs:
- If a dot is removed or expended, you should get mag/Stam back. That means purges, cloaks, and durations ended would cause dots to mean something for DKs.

- Return helping hands back to how it was.

- Fix chains so DK's can start using their major expedition source.

- Give another armor boost that runs passively (to mimic losing out on miss chance).
- fix dk bugs

Templars:

- make explosive charge a ground target ability. Let it be the escape tool Templars are asking for. Maybe instead of DMG, it boosts your resists with one morph boosting your allies resists.
- Dawn's wraith passive to increase your armor against the enemy that is affected by a DW spell.
- in addition to cost reduction passive, give templars mag back per ability use. Templars have been starving since 2014 (other threads back then said the same sustain issues as today).
- fix jabs/Jesus beam scaling issues (as promised by zos on pts!).


Basically make DKs and Templars choose other defense options to replace healing/block. Let us move/mitigate dmg and debuff players like we were intended to do!

Disagree on helping hands. It was easy to effective on both pve and pvp. It would just reinforce holding block.

current helping hands reinforces block bots. Only difference is now that you don't have stamDk permablockers with 25k hp, but instead magDk permablockers with all the way up to 40k hp.(they can go higher but not really optimal to run pure hp)
especially the reason why mDKs are having a very easy time with achieving permablock.
They can nerf block separately. I don't have %90 block cost reduction and I need that stamina to fight, heal, run.

f047ys3v3n

The truly miraculous thing is that there was actually a time, around one tamriel, when top tier raids (and lots of those existed at that time) actually had mag and stam toons of all classes. It wasn't perfect by any means but you did at least see people running a variety of builds. Naturally there were some "fixes" needed most prominently in Morrowind but in other updates as well. Now, not so much balance is there. The balance was an accident, the unbalance is as well.

ak_pvp

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

The truly miraculous thing is that there was actually a time, around one tamriel, when top tier raids (and lots of those existed at that time) actually had mag and stam toons of all classes. It wasn't perfect by any means but you did at least see people running a variety of builds. Naturally there were some "fixes" needed most prominently in Morrowind but in other updates as well. Now, not so much balance is there. The balance was an accident, the unbalance is as well.

The time for the best balanced was around 1tam/homestead. Sure there were procs/tanks aplenty, but change that and you have decent balance and variety.

NyassaV

Magplar doesn't have a sustain issue and only a DPS issue with Jabs... Plus they gave all the fun stuff Temp had to Warden

DK sucks for sustain reasons. But in 1v1 and sometimes 1v2 it will absolutely dominate even with their current sustain issue. In PvE however they need serious help and even I am at a loss of how to help them

NyassaV

Sorry no that won't work. Purging is expensive and Ardent flame already perma snares you (pretty much)

kojou

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Number 1. That's right, you guessed it. Both their sustain and competitive dos numbers rely on off balance. Without off balance our whips don't proc and if our whips don't proc, good luck getting halfway through a 3m health target skeleton. This leads in to number two.

Number 2. After maining a magicka dragon knight for nearly two years, I pull around 51k in trials on a static target (first boss in vMol for example.) Now, when I am told that I can't be in end game raids because other melee ranged dos (blasphemous stam dk's ;p ) are doing 65k dps, what is my argument? I can argue the off balance consumption because their heavy attacks will consume the proc as well as my whips but i can't argue 10-15k in dps. Especially when IMO, i work a lot harder for it rotation wise.

Possible Solutions and Ideas. Zos, please, please be very careful in your looking into off balance. The wrong move could make magic dk's extinct. I realize your past track record for leveling the playing field has been to nerf everything. It does't work, won't work, etc. DK's used to bring so much utility to the group that is just not needed anymore. Tanks can run engulfing flames, and hell, most sorcerers and magblades even have a fire enchant on on of their staves. You could argue they can still be helpful with chains but again, if tank is solid enough, they can chain...including the twins fight. The main issue I see is being ostracized from the inevitable elitist end game raiders ( not putting anyone down, I wouldn't want less dps on purpose either) because we aren't capable of pulling the same numbers. Perhaps offer a version of implosion like sorcerers? Buff some of the magicka morph skills? Our passives have been nerfed a few times now but magicka dk continues to basically stay the same through your content but have grown worse by indirect changes to the game...I.E. off balance.

The class needs some help guys...they need a way to be competitive in end game content again. Refusing to play a sorc!

PS. Sorry Magplars, you will have to make your own post. You guys have it bad too : / Also, ignore typos...phone and what not.

There are a few ways they could go here IMO...

1. Buff Battle Roar - Easy way out, just tweak numbers so that sustain matches that of other classes. Won't effect Stam DK DPS because they don't need sustain help anyway.

2. Buff flame staff heavy attacks - Make the heavy attack speed and resource return for flame staves closer to that of Dual Wield. This should probably be done anyway...

3. Make Flame Lash give Magicka and Health back on a proc. This won't get rid of the dependence on off-balance, but will allow magi-dk's to light weave more when they do get a proc which means they won't consume off balance with as many heavy attacks.

4. Make the DoTs for Eruption and F.O.O. 20 Seconds instead of 18 and 15 respectively. This will make the rotation easier to manage, and help with resources since they won't have to be recast as often.

I hope they do something, because I think DPS on Magicka DK is quite fun, but I have switched to Stamplar for now until I get my Magicka DK fixed.

Banana

Use race change and go back to being a stamina Dk. I did this morning. Solved my problems and i needed a change

Conduit0

ZOS needs to do two things.

1. DK magicka costs need to be reduced across the board. Magicka costs were too high before the sustain nerf, now its just abysmal.
2. Give DKs better passive magicka regen. Battle Roar is the only bonus to magicka regen that DKs get and after the Morrowind nerf its not nearly enough.

jakeedmundson

Banana wrote: »

Use race change and go back to being a stamina Dk. I did this morning. Solved my problems and i needed a change

so.... just spend $20+ worth of crowns every time they screw up balance?

Pass.

kojou

Banana wrote: »

Use race change and go back to being a stamina Dk. I did this morning. Solved my problems and i needed a change

I have 3 max level Dragon Knights, a tank, a Stamina DPS, and a Magicka DPS. I can switch to the Stamina DK DPS whenever I feel like it, but I prefer the Magicka DK DPS, because I find it more fun.

Minno

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

Use race change and go back to being a stamina Dk. I did this morning. Solved my problems and i needed a change

so.... just spend $20+ worth of crowns every time they screw up balance?

Pass.

Which btw, that $20+ helps me pay for gas to get to work. I'm lucky im a Breton though lol

Baconlad

I'll gladly trade battle roar for channeled focus...

SaintSubwayy

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

1. Buff Battle Roar - Easy way out, just tweak numbers so that sustain matches that of other classes. Won't effect Stam DK DPS because they don't need sustain help anyway.

Uhh, thats just another buff to Stam DK tho, as a not Redguard Stam DK, Battleroar is very nice actually. Espacially in certain fights, vHOF Endboss, when standing on the boss and block the Stomp....man that conusmes Stamina

Overall, DK has the highest skillcosts of all classes atm. Back in 1T it was ok cause Battleroar made up for them, now Battleroar cannot support those skillcosts anymore, and mag DK is doomed atm.

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Number 2. After maining a magicka dragon knight for nearly two years, I pull around 51k in trials on a static target (first boss in vMol for example.) Now, when I am told that I can't be in end game raids because other melee ranged dos (blasphemous stam dk's ;p ) are doing 65k dps, what is my argument? I can argue the off balance consumption because their heavy attacks will consume the proc as well as my whips but i can't argue 10-15k in dps. Especially when IMO, i work a lot harder for it rotation wise.

well I am sorry to bring that to you, but atm mag DK is "useless" as DPS. Like you mentioned stamina pulls 10-15k more DPS, which just kills all magica meele classes for endgame.

If you dont wana play sorc, try stamplar or stam in general, or search a new group to raid with....if they cannot compensate the 10-15k dps you deal less, then the problem shoul dbe somewhere else.

the_Beard

It would be tough to justify bringing back helping hands back to the way it was, because that would help dk tanks in cyrodiil once again be able to block infinitely. Sure they still can stay alive a long time even now, but its a lot better than it was prior to that nerf. If helping hands was reverted, everyone on the forums would be in an uproar again over unkillable dk tanks in cyrodiil.

In order to fix sustain, they either need to revert battle roar to the way it used to be, or drastically reduce the cost of some of the MagDK skills, or both. Right now it is far too difficult to sustain, as its even difficult to get through a 3mil dummy parse without doing multiple heavy attacks.

Molten Whip and Flame Lash also need to be looked at. Prior to Morrowind, Molten Whip was the clear choice, as sustain was easier, and Molten Whip does more dps overall, because all our ardent flame abilities are buffed just by having it slotted. Ardent Flame abilities make up by far the largest chunk of our dps. The problem now is that you literally CANNOT sustain molten whip now because of the changes to resources post-Morrowind. I've tried. You absolutely cannot even come close to killing a 3 mil dummy using Molten Whip without either running out of resources very early, or putting a crap ton of heavy attacks in your rotation, which is a guaranteed dps loss. We are now forced to use Flame Lash for this reason, and as pointed out by everyone else, opens a lot of other problems because we have to rely on off-balance support.

You're going to be hard pressed to make a case for buffing magDK dps. You run the risk of making them far too powerful in cyrodiil if you buff their damage output too much. I think everyone can agree though that they are in need of some serious love in the sustain department. Hell, reduce the cost of eruption from 4k+ down to 3k. Why does it even cost that much in the first place? Its only useful for PvE, as no one is going to stand in that aoe circle in cyrodiil, just like standard of might. I mean yeah, it is a long, 18-second skill, but with how little dps it does, why 4k+ magicka???

Neoauspex

You know what would help Templar? If every buff their class skills granted wasn't redundant with Mages Guild skills.