Please Look At Soul Assault

BohnT

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

@DDuke @BohnT The defile is what makes incap so powerful on a burst combo as it applies at the end.

@Joy_Division you're right, burst ultimates are superior in small scale for sure. Anyone saying they can't cope with 3.5 seconds of damage, but can handle a proper dbos, leap, incap, meteor, combo with the same build just fine is full of it.

No defiles isn't the Problem with incap, unbreakable cc's with 20% more damage taken is what kills you.
In almost every encounter ppl start stacking defile but that won't kill me especially when i'm on my sorc/magnb/magplar/stamplar but a cc i can not break is a deaths sentence

Joy_Division

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Magicka ultimates are already weak compared to Stamina, they should be buffed not nerfed. I would take a Magicka version of Dawnbreaker over Soul Assault any day!

This put me in tears.

Ikr?

It's not like every magicka ultimate (besides Overload) is undodgeable and every stamina ultimate in the game (besides Dawnbreaker) can be dodged... oh wait.


Stamina ultimates are "so much stronger", that most stam builds would rather slot Soul Assault than the stamina equivalent, Toxic Barrage.

I'd take Incap and Leap over every magicka ultimate in the game and so would you.

Stam has it so hard not being able to dodge Remembrance, Nova, Negate, and Banner. How can stam wardens possibly begin to compete against an array of OP ultis such as those?

No I wouldn't (especially as stam build that already has zero undodgeables), and I was more referring to things like Soul Harvest (undodgeable, unlike its counterpart), meteor, atro, soul assault & EotS.

Also, playing magicka DK I've actually come to appreciate the dmg shield I get on casting Ferocious Leap - I don't think I'd swap that for a little bit more dmg & reduced cost either.


But sure, if you compare the strongest stamina ultimates to the weakest magicka ones I can understand how they might seem very strong.

Since you always compare the strongest magicka stuff in ESO to the weakest or worst situational stamina stuff, I figured you'd appreciate the rejoinder.

You can write on these forums that the 200 cost atro as if it even remotely compares to 75 cost Incap, 110 Take Flight, and 125 Dawnbreaker till the cows come home, but unless you are on a Zookeeper dueling spec, I won't believe it.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

But yeah, just to elaborate a bit more on why I think magicka ultimates are stronger:

For example, if I had to choose between Soul Harvest (undodgeable+ulti from kills) & Incap (stun) being the stamina morph, I'd pick Soul Harvest every single time.

Most of the time Incap is used as part of a combo that includes CC from another source (unless you want it to get blocked/dodged), meaning the stun part is completely redundant.

I'd definitely have it up more often in 1vX & have it be undodgeable instead, which means Soul Harvest is actually the better morph, but just happens to be for magicka builds only...

That´s personal playstyle bias - as i have myself admittedly.
You don´t need incap bc you use it in the middle of your combo - hence undodgeable harvest would be more useful for you.

On a magblade it´s mostly the other way around where you initiate your heavy dmg with incap + followup.
A magblade with harvest is an easier opponent for me than one with incap.

Personally i would not say stamina or magica have better ultimates. It´s DK, NB and fighters guild that have the best offensive ultimates.

Baconlad

""Most stamina toons run soul assault...."""

Roflmao, WTF are you even talking about? Give me an ults that I can animation cancel and do a stun AOE with massive damage upfront.

You can have soul assault. It doesn't nuke anyone but scrubs 1v1 or 1vX or Xv1, only thing It does is force defense.

Meteor? You mean that ultimate that has the same Tooltip values as DBOS but almost double the cost and a massive telegraphed delay? Only classes that can use that are classes with unblockable stun...Go magplar!!!! Oh wait...

Tell me oh wise one...what mag ults are gud? Ight...I'll give you dragon leap, that's a sweet one. Buuuuut only for DK. So everyone else *** off.

Nova? Weaker dot than sweeps, easy to get out of, damage locked behind a synergy.

Couple all of this with the fact that small scale magic players have to build in passive defense AND sustain, drastically lowering the damage of the *** ults we do have. Cept magsorc...they get to have their cake and eat it too. What about stamina toons? Not only amazing ults. But ridiculous passive mitigation in the form of vigor, dodge rolling and much long blocking capabilities...they can wear to damage sets and take on the world...my magplar? Left in the dust.

It's ok I guess...I have remembrance, my small man team of stamina builds appreciate it...

Baconlad

Ah and for those of you who don't know. In big drain is not unblockable stun...fyi, magplar can't use it for that.

Waffennacht

Baconlad wrote: »

Ah and for those of you who don't know. In big drain is not unblockable stun...fyi, magplar can't use it for that.

I don't think Templars have any access to an unblockable stun

idk

Solariken wrote: »

IMO Soul Assault is fine - 1v1 you have a very good chance of surviving it unless you get caught with your pants down. If you get hit with it in an Xv1 you're toast, but that's kinda the way ZOS is designing combat lately.

Also IMO, DBoS is the one that is a bit over-tuned - I think it needs to lose the stun to bring it in line. Again just my opinion, sheath your pitchforks lol.

Combat in most games has it so when you get hit by 10 players, almost regardless of the skills, you can expect to die.

Comparing skills or chastising Zos about the design of skills when discussing a Xv1 situation is a little silly.

OMG, SA is so OP. I died to 10 SAs hitting me all at once. That should not happen.

That's what this sounds like.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Waffennacht wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

Ah and for those of you who don't know. In big drain is not unblockable stun...fyi, magplar can't use it for that.

I don't think Templars have any access to an unblockable stun

Invigorating/Accelerating Drain...

Vaoh

DDuke wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Magicka ultimates are already weak compared to Stamina, they should be buffed not nerfed. I would take a Magicka version of Dawnbreaker over Soul Assault any day!

This put me in tears.

Ikr?

It's not like every magicka ultimate (besides Overload) is undodgeable and every stamina ultimate in the game (besides Dawnbreaker) can be dodged... oh wait.


Stamina ultimates are "so much stronger", that most stam builds would rather slot Soul Assault than the stamina equivalent, Toxic Barrage.

Umm..... you use Soul Assault on a Stam build? Like instead of Dawnbreaker?

Also you conveniently left out the Ballista morph which is very powerful.

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

Ah and for those of you who don't know. In big drain is not unblockable stun...fyi, magplar can't use it for that.

I don't think Templars have any access to an unblockable stun

But then again we have the only unblocked delay DMG ability that also serves as a defensive mechanic.

SodanTok

Vaoh wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Magicka ultimates are already weak compared to Stamina, they should be buffed not nerfed. I would take a Magicka version of Dawnbreaker over Soul Assault any day!

This put me in tears.

Ikr?

It's not like every magicka ultimate (besides Overload) is undodgeable and every stamina ultimate in the game (besides Dawnbreaker) can be dodged... oh wait.


Stamina ultimates are "so much stronger", that most stam builds would rather slot Soul Assault than the stamina equivalent, Toxic Barrage.

Umm..... you use Soul Assault on a Stam build? Like instead of Dawnbreaker?

Also you conveniently left out the Ballista morph which is very powerful.

Eh, plenty of stam people use soul assault. In some situations it is far more powerful than dawnbreaker. Same goes for meteor. Also ballista is not very powerful lol. It is one big joke with 175 cost that kills only stupid people. The only reason to ever use ballista is if you cant allow yourself to stand still and take damage while channeling soul assault. For a price that makes you question why you even slotted it. Channeling soul assault for half the duration is better than this.

DDuke

Vaoh wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Magicka ultimates are already weak compared to Stamina, they should be buffed not nerfed. I would take a Magicka version of Dawnbreaker over Soul Assault any day!

This put me in tears.

Ikr?

It's not like every magicka ultimate (besides Overload) is undodgeable and every stamina ultimate in the game (besides Dawnbreaker) can be dodged... oh wait.


Stamina ultimates are "so much stronger", that most stam builds would rather slot Soul Assault than the stamina equivalent, Toxic Barrage.

Umm..... you use Soul Assault on a Stam build? Like instead of Dawnbreaker?

Also you conveniently left out the Ballista morph which is very powerful.

No, I don't even play a stam build at the moment; they underperform way too much compared to magicka.


But that's not the point I wanted to make, the point is that saying "magicka ultimates are weak compared to stamina" is ridiculous when almost every stamina ultimate in the game can be 100% countered with a simple dodge roll by builds that can already survive the damage thanks to shields/decent self heals, while stam builds have to deal with undodgeable bull[snip] without adequate means of surviving said undodgeable bull[snip].

Brutusmax1mus

DDuke wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Magicka ultimates are already weak compared to Stamina, they should be buffed not nerfed. I would take a Magicka version of Dawnbreaker over Soul Assault any day!

This put me in tears.

Ikr?

It's not like every magicka ultimate (besides Overload) is undodgeable and every stamina ultimate in the game (besides Dawnbreaker) can be dodged... oh wait.


Stamina ultimates are "so much stronger", that most stam builds would rather slot Soul Assault than the stamina equivalent, Toxic Barrage.

Umm..... you use Soul Assault on a Stam build? Like instead of Dawnbreaker?

Also you conveniently left out the Ballista morph which is very powerful.

No, I don't even play a stam build at the moment; they underperform way too much compared to magicka.


But that's not the point I wanted to make, the point is that saying "magicka ultimates are weak compared to stamina" is ridiculous when almost every stamina ultimate in the game can be 100% countered with a simple dodge roll by builds that can already survive the damage thanks to shields/decent self heals, while stam builds have to deal with undodgeable bull[snip] without adequate means of surviving said undodgeable bull[snip].

I saw another of your posts, aren't you built for sniping?

DDuke

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Magicka ultimates are already weak compared to Stamina, they should be buffed not nerfed. I would take a Magicka version of Dawnbreaker over Soul Assault any day!

This put me in tears.

Ikr?

It's not like every magicka ultimate (besides Overload) is undodgeable and every stamina ultimate in the game (besides Dawnbreaker) can be dodged... oh wait.


Stamina ultimates are "so much stronger", that most stam builds would rather slot Soul Assault than the stamina equivalent, Toxic Barrage.

Umm..... you use Soul Assault on a Stam build? Like instead of Dawnbreaker?

Also you conveniently left out the Ballista morph which is very powerful.

No, I don't even play a stam build at the moment; they underperform way too much compared to magicka.


But that's not the point I wanted to make, the point is that saying "magicka ultimates are weak compared to stamina" is ridiculous when almost every stamina ultimate in the game can be 100% countered with a simple dodge roll by builds that can already survive the damage thanks to shields/decent self heals, while stam builds have to deal with undodgeable bull[snip] without adequate means of surviving said undodgeable bull[snip].

I saw another of your posts, aren't you built for sniping?

That's a build I'd love to play in a Miat-free environment (because it's really fun to play) and perhaps when medium armor is a little bit better survivability wise.


Fortunately, I've got lots of builds/characters and I'm currently playing my destro/resto magicka DK that not only deals the same damage as a full dmg focused stam build, but also survives 10x better.

Waffennacht

@TheDoomsdayMonster drain is blockable, I tested several times

Brutusmax1mus

Waffennacht wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster drain is blockable, I tested several times

They can't block the "kiss this" emote. Try dropping a meteor and taunting with that, 60% of the time it works every time. Best a templar has.

Baconlad

Invigorating/ accelerating drain do NOT stun through block...they still heal and provide their effects, including the very powerful fear animation, but do not provide magplar with an unblockable stun. So were also the worst class at meteor usage.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Waffennacht wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster drain is blockable, I tested several times

Then they stealth nerfed it as it used to go through block...

Waffennacht

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster drain is blockable, I tested several times

Then they stealth n erfed it as it used to go through block...

Wouldn't surprise me, there's a reason they made x class abilities unblockable vs blockable, and everyone having access to one would defeat the purpose

gepe87

Block, heal. Done.

Lord-Otto

Waffennacht wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster drain is blockable, I tested several times

Then they stealth n erfed it as it used to go through block...

Wouldn't surprise me, there's a reason they made x class abilities unblockable vs blockable, and everyone having access to one would defeat the purpose

Maybe it got changed last patch with the removal of disorients.
My guess is that every CC that went through block was considered a disorient by the game and was globally changed. Some got their blockfree stun back by manual coding, like Rune Cage and Fossilize. And some were left out, like Drain.
Can't find anything in the Netch Potes, though.
At any rate, that really sucks!
D=

BohnT

gepe87 wrote: »

Block, heal. Done.

And that's where you're wrong. Blocking Soulstrike drains 20k stamina on any build that hasn't invested a lot into block cost reduction.

Brutusmax1mus

BohnT wrote: »

gepe87 wrote: »

Block, heal. Done.

And that's where you're wrong. Blocking Soulstrike drains 20k stamina on any build that hasn't invested a lot into block cost reduction.

You dont have to block it all. Just enough to survive. 20k stam is 20k stam, but you're not dead.

Lord_Eomer

I hardly see this beam in PVP,

Just block and no harm and there is no need for Nerf!

pieratsos

idk wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

IMO Soul Assault is fine - 1v1 you have a very good chance of surviving it unless you get caught with your pants down. If you get hit with it in an Xv1 you're toast, but that's kinda the way ZOS is designing combat lately.

Also IMO, DBoS is the one that is a bit over-tuned - I think it needs to lose the stun to bring it in line. Again just my opinion, sheath your pitchforks lol.

Combat in most games has it so when you get hit by 10 players, almost regardless of the skills, you can expect to die.

Comparing skills or chastising Zos about the design of skills when discussing a Xv1 situation is a little silly.

OMG, SA is so OP. I died to 10 SAs hitting me all at once. That should not happen.

That's what this sounds like.

Saying abilities are balanced because you would die anyway in Xv1 is also a little silly. The point is not about dying or surviving. The point is about how you die.

1vX situations depend on the solo player's capabilities of outplaying his opponents with skill. Abilities, sets, mechanics or whatever with very little to no counterplay excel in Xv1 situations because they essentially remove the solo player's chances of outplaying his opponents. Thats the point people try to make when they bring up those Xv1 situations.

Again its not about dying. Its about how you died. Being spammed with stuns and generally taking too much pressure to the point where u run out of stamina and die is one thing. But running out of stamina and dying because u were forced to sit and block with ur bow, an ability with 7-8 ticks of dmg and a 70% snare is an entirely different story.

SodanTok

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

gepe87 wrote: »

Block, heal. Done.

And that's where you're wrong. Blocking Soulstrike drains 20k stamina on any build that hasn't invested a lot into block cost reduction.

You dont have to block it all. Just enough to survive. 20k stam is 20k stam, but you're not dead.

It depends who is the attacker. Versus some people you dont have to block at all, because it barely outdamages vigor, versus different you have to block it all, because all it takes is having execute on you and curse and you will just pop after 1-2 unblocked tick.

No ulti can make you dead on its own unless you are stupid, so the fact that soul assault does not kill people should not be used as argument. Forcing dodge roller to barely move and not dodge for 4sec is significant thing on its own in any combat that is not just 1v1. Losing 2/3 of stam is just troll cherry on top

Brutusmax1mus

You can't neglect its usage in a group play either though. If I'm on my healer NOBODY in my 4 man dies from SA. A dbos/ incap / leap / meteor combo can do work on anyone however. And that's why those ultimates are so superior. SA is worthless in towers or keeps as well.

Sure SA can kill and forces reaction, but there are far more instances where it's awful than those where it's great. You guys are acting like it's impossible to outplay someone or a couple people if you're hit with SA... and that's not the case at all. Players do it all the time.

ak_pvp

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Magicka ultimates are already weak compared to Stamina, they should be buffed not nerfed. I would take a Magicka version of Dawnbreaker over Soul Assault any day!

This put me in tears.

Ikr?

It's not like every magicka ultimate (besides Overload) is undodgeable and every stamina ultimate in the game (besides Dawnbreaker) can be dodged... oh wait.


Stamina ultimates are "so much stronger", that most stam builds would rather slot Soul Assault than the stamina equivalent, Toxic Barrage.

I'd take Incap and Leap over every magicka ultimate in the game and so would you.

Stam has it so hard not being able to dodge Remembrance, Nova, Negate, and Banner. How can stam wardens possibly begin to compete against an array of OP ultis such as those?

No I wouldn't (especially as stam build that already has zero undodgeables), and I was more referring to things like Soul Harvest (undodgeable, unlike its counterpart), meteor, atro, soul assault & EotS.

Also, playing magicka DK I've actually come to appreciate the dmg shield I get on casting Ferocious Leap - I don't think I'd swap that for a little bit more dmg & reduced cost either.


But sure, if you compare the strongest stamina ultimates to the weakest magicka ones I can understand how they might seem very strong.

Its a solid oh *** ult, but for that I'd prefer bats or shield, so would personally take extra damage+cost+range over a shield, though through passives the ferocious actually has more damage.

Drummerx04

BohnT wrote: »

For anyone saying that dawnbreaker should be magicka based again no. Each class has 0-2 ults which scale with stamina.
DK: Leap and Corrosive Armor
Templar: Crescent Sweep
Sorc: None
NB: Incap
Warden: Bear
+ 6 weapon ults and 2 morphs of dawnbreaker, 2x WW

Against:
Bat swarm (2x), DK ults (4x), Sorc (6x) NB 4x (not counting bolstering darkness), Templar 5x, Warden 5x
4 weapon ults, 2x Soulassault, 2x Meteor.

Not counting Barrier, War Horn, 1h&s ult, Bolstering Darkness as they do not scale with stam and mag

So let's do the math: 15 stamina vs 34 magicka based ults.
Stamina has the cheaper offensive ults to break the better healing survivability in open combat while magicka has the more powerful more expensive ults to wreck stam players in one attempt.
Giving magicka a full damage dawnbreaker would give them the best defensive ults while having a cheap ult that goes through all defences stamina classes have.

On the topic of Soulassault, it's too easy to get kills with it. Find a stamchar that's not a warden, use you dots stun them and then use SA and get the kill if they are outnumbered skip 1&2 and get the easy kill.
SA needs it's cost increased by 15%, changed to be interrupteable again and lowering the snare to 30%.
Along with nerfs to incap and 2 of the most op / powerful ults in the game would come back to a balanced point

I'm a little tired of seeing that opinion tbh. You want SA to be interruptible, but it's designed to be used against dodge rollers who are invariably stam builds who will be in a position to bash pretty much always in a 1v1.

You want it to only be useful in Xv1? Yeah, that's the way to do it.

KingJ

You know you can still sidestep dawnbreaker it's a Cone AOE

Drummerx04 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

For anyone saying that dawnbreaker should be magicka based again no. Each class has 0-2 ults which scale with stamina.
DK: Leap and Corrosive Armor
Templar: Crescent Sweep
Sorc: None
NB: Incap
Warden: Bear
+ 6 weapon ults and 2 morphs of dawnbreaker, 2x WW

Against:
Bat swarm (2x), DK ults (4x), Sorc (6x) NB 4x (not counting bolstering darkness), Templar 5x, Warden 5x
4 weapon ults, 2x Soulassault, 2x Meteor.

Not counting Barrier, War Horn, 1h&s ult, Bolstering Darkness as they do not scale with stam and mag

So let's do the math: 15 stamina vs 34 magicka based ults.
Stamina has the cheaper offensive ults to break the better healing survivability in open combat while magicka has the more powerful more expensive ults to wreck stam players in one attempt.
Giving magicka a full damage dawnbreaker would give them the best defensive ults while having a cheap ult that goes through all defences stamina classes have.

On the topic of Soulassault, it's too easy to get kills with it. Find a stamchar that's not a warden, use you dots stun them and then use SA and get the kill if they are outnumbered skip 1&2 and get the easy kill.
SA needs it's cost increased by 15%, changed to be interrupteable again and lowering the snare to 30%.
Along with nerfs to incap and 2 of the most op / powerful ults in the game would come back to a balanced point

I'm a little tired of seeing that opinion tbh. You want SA to be interruptible, but it's designed to be used against dodge rollers who are invariably stam builds who will be in a position to bash pretty much always in a 1v1.

You want it to only be useful in Xv1? Yeah, that's the way to do it.

That's called counterplay young one something you need in a healthy game.