Look - a PUG ethics poll! What, oh what, would you have done in my place?

Jarryzzt

Actual in-game situation. Note that the poll question is expressly about ethics, not content difficulty (not the least as the content was not difficult at all).

Random dungeon, normal, DPS role. Queue waiting time approximately 15 minutes, plus or minus.

I roll a dungeon this specific character had never done before, i.e. with the dungeon quest available. The rest of the group consists of: a CP690; a CP200-300; and a level 40 or so.

I grab the quest. The rest of the group begins rushing the dungeon, ignoring one of the initial quest objectives. I note this in group chat - politely, I thought - and the response is (from one of the three), well, I've already done it. I point out that I haven't, and the response is, and I quote, "lol", which may be the first time in years that I have actually typed out that acronym.

At this point, I decide to grab the first objective myself, but by this time the group rolls the first boss and is rushing towards the second, essentially putting my next quest objective into "never-complete" mode. [Whether this is a bug or a feature is immaterial to this specific poll.] You will notice that this means the group had no problem taking down the first boss with only three people (skipping ahead, the CP690 was basically rolling everything). It is here that I face the PUG ethics dilemma, as in, how to react to the proceedings.

My actual reaction was as per Option 1 in the poll. Specifically, follow along with the group but essentially let it carry me (i.e. safe and simple one-bar rotation, no unnecessary risks, no sweaty-palms effort); finish the run and grab the loot; and drop the quest afterwards, hoping to some day roll the same dungeon with the same character again. The decision was part psychological payback - why should I help you if you hadn't helped me - and part rational assessment - if the three of them can roll one boss, then the three of them plus my simple-and-safe one-bar rotation can roll all of them (which is precisely what happened) and I will still have legitimately contributed some DPS to the kills.

I recognize, however, that many - perhaps most? - individuals on these forums might find my approach to the situation to be...to quote something a person of the opposite gender has once said about me, to my face - "cold and heartless"? Or perhaps "selfish", "petty" even? Something along those lines. Hence, this anonymous poll on PUG ethics, a sort of a "what I would do" test (the anonymity aspect hopefully decreases the instances of "what I would do" turning into "what I would want people on the forums to think I would do"). A miniature social experiment, if you will.

You will notice that nowhere in this account do I actually complain about the circumstances nor call for some sort of reform or action like the myriad "fake tank" posts we've had to endure these last few days. In fact, I do not care about what the group "should" have done - this is immaterial. The poll is about the individual's response to the group being what it is, whatever it is.

For fun, but, sadly, no profit, I've added some D&D alignment labels to most of the options. I stress in advance that these are my labels and my takes on what each alignment is supposed to mean, and as anyone who's ever had this conversation in a gaming store ought to know, every D&D player has their own favoured interpretation, and far be it for me to change their mind about it so long as no-one attempts to change mine.

obscure7

Which dungeon was it [I'm a Chaotic Neutral btw]

Glurin

Personally, if I had joined specifically to finish the quest, I'd be sorely tempted to simply leave and rejoin the queue. Hopefully the next group will be willing to take the extra two minutes or less to complete that first objective.

It's a combination of my desire to complete the quest and their clear desire to simply faceroll to the end as quickly as possible while at the same time displaying a clear disdain for my own needs. Besides, they can find a replacement DPS quickly enough if they so desire.

If, however, I was just looking to run a dungeon and happened to get one that I hadn't completed the quest for, then I'd probably just bite my tongue, abandon the quest, and let them do their thing. I'd contribute to the fight where I can but if they're just facerolling everything on their own then I doubt my heart would be in it.

newtinmpls

OK...if it was during the 'event' recently; then expecting anyone to not rush in at breakneck speed and be jerks....not worthwhile as a choice.

Other than that, I would just do the quest mechanics and say "I'm here" (Or wherever) and try and mostly catch up to them, but also I would expect to be kicked.

OTOH the odds of me doing a PUG group are pretty much nil.

Hippie4927

I chose "neutral evil". I'd be pissed enough that I wouldn't put in much effort. Just finish the run, get my loot, and do the quest at a later time. And don't anyone dare to ask me for any of my loot!

FrancisCrawford

Why abandon the quest?

If I had done one of the non-pledge side trips for a quest that will when completed give me a skill point, I'd use one of my 25 scarce quest log spots to keep that quest active until it was eventually done.

SaRuZ

I used to be quite verbal back when I couldn't carry or solo. Idk what dungeon you are referring to but even if I steamroll one, any newbies or people on alts can not only pick up the quest but also read through the dialogue. Chances are that 690 didn't need any of you to blast through.

If it's the story and pace you truly want. I reccomend joining a PvE guild that is new-user friendly. Plenty of people want to experience the quest. I personally am not one lol but to each his own.

idk

This is just plain silliness which I assume is OPs goal since the answers boarder on humorous.

Rainraven

Serious answer: for me this is not a question of ethics but one of expediency. Complaining is a lot of effort, is it going to get me anything I want? Nope, they've already made their choice, no point in further conversation. Finish the run and go on my merry.

Ultra-serious answer: you left out Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Neutral, and True Neutral! Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow...

AlienatedGoat

Would've finished the dungeon and then called them all out for being *** and not letting me finish the quest.

Then I would've queued a normal of that dungeon and finished the quest with a group that wasn't full of ***.

Sharee

I found it helps to announce your intent to the group right at the start, before the first pull. "Doing quest, sorry for any delays".

In your situation, i would probably just forget about the quest and play normally with full effort, not to be nice but simply to make it faster. Complaining in chat to people you don't know and probably will never see again has 0 point.

pepe1337

The quest finishes at the end regardless if you did any of the objectives just pickup the quest, no need to be a sook. and chances are you've already done it on another character so why does it matter so much?

Pele

The entire group, including you, was inconsiderate.

They because they didn't care at all about your personal reason for being there.

You because you had the audacity to presume three strangers would/should cater a dungeon run for you.

Of the four players in your group, I'd say you behaved the worst because you were presumptuous and became petulant and passive aggressive when you didn't get your way.

zaria

Glurin wrote: »

Personally, if I had joined specifically to finish the quest, I'd be sorely tempted to simply leave and rejoin the queue. Hopefully the next group will be willing to take the extra two minutes or less to complete that first objective.

It's a combination of my desire to complete the quest and their clear desire to simply faceroll to the end as quickly as possible while at the same time displaying a clear disdain for my own needs. Besides, they can find a replacement DPS quickly enough if they so desire.

If, however, I was just looking to run a dungeon and happened to get one that I hadn't completed the quest for, then I'd probably just bite my tongue, abandon the quest, and let them do their thing. I'd contribute to the fight where I can but if they're just facerolling everything on their own then I doubt my heart would be in it.

You could do the dungeon then do it again for quest, it would be done in 10 minutes or so unless an long dungeon because of speed run. I found that in most dungeons its no issue getting the quest done. If some does speed run you can usually do quest and sprint after. Even in an high dps group they are unlikely to take down next boss before you catch up.
Main issue is then its an long action or you need to go another place before delivering quest also if you believe low level players need the quest, yes has been fooled by that one.
So I would followed but not made much of an effort.

ArchMikem

Have an insightful.

I'd do the same thing you did. If the group can easily carry me I'm not gonna waste the xp and loot by just leaving. But at the same time if they're gonna be like that and not help someone that needs to complete the quest I won't talk to them either, and promptly leave the group once the Final Boss is done.

From your description you did nothing wrong. May your next group in that Dungeon be more considerate.

Samadhi

Jarryzzt wrote: »

...
I recognize, however, that many - perhaps most? - individuals on these forums might find my approach to the situation to be...to quote something a person of the opposite gender has once said about me, to my face - "cold and heartless"? Or perhaps "selfish", "petty" even? Something along those lines. ...

"Petty" sounds like it may be about right,
Can respect that you did not like the group's attitude in leaving you behind
but you seem to imply you willfully performed 'poorly' as a form of 'payback'
while noting that the group likely did not need your top-end performance
really, if anything, you simply put undue psychological stress on yourself for the duration of the run
and simply left the other members of the group with the impression that you are a mediocre player
rather than really catching on to you intentionally being dead weight on a run they were breezing through

That said, would have acted in a similar manner to yourself,
but would have just kept a different attitude about it--
would have ditched the quest and relaxed through an easy run
done more than a single bar rotation, but not concern myself with the run failing if my performance is not perfect

keep pace with the group, contribute and, most importantly, have fun with it
then worry about the housekeeping of finishing the quest on another run

Rosveen

Was it during the dungeon event or not? This would affect my reaction. During the event I would never expect a stranger to slow down and wait for others to finish the quest. We all ran with multiple alts every day, there was no time to waste. A terrible introduction to dungeons for a new player, but that's the game we play.

However, if it happened at any other time, I'd be annoyed. It has actually happened to me before, so I know what I did: the same thing as you. If they don't care about me, I don't care about them - and anyway, they clearly didn't need me, so I didn't even hinder them. I just relaxed, left the quest for another time and finished the run without putting in much effort.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Which dungeon was it? Because I know that in most dungeons the quests have been adjusted so you can finish them even if your group rushes ahead, as long as someone stays in group untill you have finished all the talking in the end.
It might seem as if the quest bugged at some point, but as soon as you kill the final boss it often resolves itself.

This could also explain the group behavior. I personally also somtimes kill some more enemies while otheres do their quest npcs if I know that this won't completely break the quest.

SugaComa

If you run random dungeon it's simple you run the way crown wants to run it

You want a quest, you queue specifically for it, and ensure you're the crown others should run now to your needs, that the ethical and polite thing to do in these situations

Crown is always lead ... Stick to with crown

Rosveen

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Which dungeon was it? Because I know that in most dungeons the quests have been adjusted so you can finish them even if your group rushes ahead, as long as someone stays in group untill you have finished all the talking in the end.
It might seem as if the quest bugged at some point, but as soon as you kill the final boss it often resolves itself.

This could also explain the group behavior. I personally also somtimes kill some more enemies while otheres do their quest npcs if I know that this won't completely break the quest.

That's another thing. I had a dungeon quest recently where I skipped a step because I ran forward with the group, but when I reached the next boss it autoupdated to the next step. However, a new player will want to listen to the story and then you have two choices: do the quest and skip the battles or keep up with the group and skip the story. That sucks.

I wish there was a way to return to the story after you finish the quest: a recording, even a summary, anything. It would actually help even the players who listen because the old vet dungeons are a continuation of the original story and sometimes you just forget because you did it so long ago.

phermitgb

Mind you I don't necessarily agree with your alignment categorizations, but other than that...

mechanically, I'd say you did "about right" - the group fairly obviously didn't *need* your contribution, so no points off for not working your hardest. I *personally* would argue that you would at least be obligated to tag along more or less effectively with the group (in other words don't go afk and just have them run the dungeon for you), and I actually hadn't even thought of abandoning the quest so you could do it with a more cooperative group (good on you)

but, on a slightly different note - evaluating ethics (and morality) from an external source is dicey at best - especially on an MMO forum - I've known too many people that allowed themselves what I would consider ethically...lazy...decisions based on the fact that they had observed other people choosing similarly lazy ethical choices and/or not getting enough dissuading arguments from the people around them

in general, I find that upholding high ethical standards requires effort...and in general, humans beings are disinclined to spend extra effort on anything if there isn't any overt benefit or reliable consequence to it - and so, whenever you address a large, faceless mass of individuals and ask them about "what is ethical", the most likely answer you would receive from such a group would be the laziest ethical choice - the one requiring the least effort

*shrug* take that for what you will - anyway, if nothing else, I'd say your quasi-hypothetical question brings up at least 1 fantastic little tidbit of wisdom - if your pug group won't wait for you to finish the quest - abandon the quest, and do it with a group that WILL wait for you - may seem like an obvious option, but it honestly hadn't occurred to me until you mentioned it

FrancisCrawford

One reason not to sweat being rushed through the quest -- you can always do it on an alt.

Besides, in which dungeon quests could you miss much by rushing?

• Banished Cells 1 has lots of inescapable voiceovers that tell you the story. The rest is tedious repetition. Ditto Banished Cells 2.
• Elden Hollow 1 doesn't have much of a story. Ditto Elden Hollow 2.
• City of Ash 1 tells you the crisis at the beginning, resolves it at the end, and has almost no story between those endpoints.
• Tempest Island just has quick discussions of battle tactics.
• Selene's Web feels like it has a story -- but if you missed all dialogue except right at the beginning and right at the end, what would you miss?
• In Spindleclutch 1 it's fun to deweb the various captives and hear what they have to say. But that doesn't take long.
• Wayrest Sewers 1 is another of those that has a set-up, a conclusion, and little or no story in the middle.
• Ditto Wayrest Sewers 2.
• Ditto Spindleclutch 2.
• Crypt of Hearts 1 has a real story. It continues in Crypt of Hearts 2. That's one worth taking your time on at some point. Perhaps not coincidentally, it's in Rivenspire, the region with the best quests in the game.
• Volenfell is worth paying attention to -- the map is super-confusing, and the quest giver is also witty.
• Blackheart Haven has a bit of a story. Ideally you catch that the first time through.
• Fungal Grotto 1 is another of those where all the story is right at the beginning and right at the end. Try to note the characters you meet in Fungal Grotto 1; you'll see them again in Fungal Grotto 2. That said, Fungal Grotto 2 doesn't really have a story.
• Darkshade Caverns 1 has story and humor in the early going. After the first major plot twist, however, the story has pretty much run out. And there isn't much story in Darkshade 2.
• Arx Corinium has little story, and the quest givers have annoying voices.
• Direfrost keep has tedious male Nord voices not worth the trouble to listen to.
• Blessed Crucible's story, such as it is, is a mess.
• Vaults of Madness is up there with Crypt of Hearts for having a story.

I haven't done City of Ash 2 yet, but I'd be surprised if the story amounted to much of anything.

White-Gold Tower has a story, but you pretty much are forced to take it in, so getting rushed through is not an issue.

I've only done Ruins of Mazzatun once. It sounded like there was a funny quest giver but not much story.

I couldn't comment on the other DLC dungeons.

raaphor

If I'm running this specific dungeon to complete the quest and the group doesn't allow me to, I leave and try again when the timer resets. Nothing wrong with that, they probably just finish the run with minimal delay without me in that case.

Shardan4968

I don't know what is evil in first 3 options when 690cp could solo whole dungeon. I would quit group immediately to not waste my time with ppl who disrespect me, but in fact I'm doing quests with my guild so I don't experience jerks like that anymore. Chaotic evil is making threads about it.

@FrancisCrawford
In Crypts of Hearts I, they want you to kill some boss in side room which is easy to miss If you don't follow quest objective. This was also only time (and the last quest with PUG for me) when high cp ignored that boss and didn't let me complete the quest.

FakeFox

If a 690+ CP player goes into a normal dungeon with 3 far weaker players and the group facerolls everything chances are good that the 690+ player does 70-80% of the damage, could solo it and the only reason he uses the dungeonfinder is that he needs a reward from that or the dungeon has a mechanic you can't solo. So for him it literally doesn't matter if you do damage, flame, do nothing or just leave. So if you take a action with bad outcome this will only affect you.

Slick_007

newtinmpls wrote: »

OK...if it was during the 'event' recently; then expecting anyone to not rush in at breakneck speed and be jerks....not worthwhile as a choice.

i had no problems with all but one group and doing quests. that group lasted approx 3minutes anyway. i just said at the start i have the quest and when the npc was doing its thing i just said one sec, quest. and they didnt go too far, if anywhere.
yes that was during the event. oooh, spooky! nice players doing dungeons.

edit: oh, i woulda kept doing the quest as long as possible

Dapper Dinosaur

You can just do the dungeon again later and finish the quest then. It's not like you won't have hundreds of opportunities to do so.

HidesFromSun

Honestly, that's pretty inconsiderate of them. I mean it would've only took a few moments for you to complete the quest objective, not like it would kill them to wait a couple moments for you. I'd have probably stayed for the rest of the run, just to grab the loot, but then that'd be it.

monktoasty

Do nothing just follow loot then when complete tell them they are all reported for exploiting and enjoy their ban.

It'll make them think a bit lol

Juju_beans

I would have just left the group. I don't like zerg dungeon runs especially since I like to loot every single crate, box, barrel and sack and read every bookcase on the first run.

Enslaved

I would be like who gives a flying skeever's arse.