possible law to officially label loot boxes as gambling (and more)

IcyDeadPeople

Jade1986 wrote: »

supaskrub wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

We are getting there to be honest. Experience scrolls in the store, Crafting certs in the store, etc. They are really pushing the envelope. Its just a matter of time before there are crown exclusive weapons hidden behind rng.

You need to learn the difference between "pay to win" and "pay for convenience"... Pay for convenience doe'snt not mean that pay to win is the next step.

As to giving games a 21 rating due to having "gambling crate" purchases then that is just as hollow as the game being a PEGI 18 now. PEGI is a system in place that prevents shopkeepers/stores etc selling to people below the age stated and has NO legal standing on how old the person playing the game has to be. IE I could buy the game and gift it to a five year old and no law is broken. So its not as simple as just awarding a higher age rating as the complete system would need reworking and this would *** quite a few of the civil liberties people off. PEGI gives a system where parents (and rightly so) decide what content their children have access to.

The Pegi version of AO doesnt usually give the game in Europe a death sentence. However it doe in the US. So it would give the companies pause if that were to happen.

Crafting certs being put in the store is indeed a move toward p2w. You have a limited amount of certs you can do per day in game, with those you could max crafting in a day if you blew enough money.

CyrusArya wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Trading cards you know you are gonna get, trading cards. Please do not use false equivelancies.

Yeah and in crown crates you know you’re gonna get some form of digital content. Just not necesarrily the coveted or valuable ones...just like with trading cards. They aren’t called fancy mount crates, they are called crown crates. Your delusions of entitlement are a personal problem, not a legal concern for ZOS or other players. Nor should it be. Players don’t own a damn thing in this game anyways, lol. You pay for access to a service.

Here’s a novel idea: if people like crown crates, don’t buy em. At the end of the day, it’s something ppl choose to participate in or not.

You are guaranteed to get CARDS though, by your comparison they would and should be able to get marbles in card packs. It was, ad still is a false equivelancy. The closest thing crown crates come to as a comparison would be slot machines, and those are gambling.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I have zero problem with this kind of cosmetic or convenience items.

What I dislike is competitive multiplayer games where you can buy items that make you more powerful than somebody who doesn't spend money. Unfortunately there are quite a lot of games like that, but ESO is not one of them. The only weapon you could buy in ESO was the "Pay to Lose" joke broom.

We are getting there to be honest. Experience scrolls in the store, Crafting certs in the store, etc. They are really pushing the envelope. Its just a matter of time before there are crown exclusive weapons hidden behind rng.

We have had XP scrolls since the store launched. Leveling up crafting skill or XP are just convenience items. And instead of making leveling slower to persuade people to buy the scrolls, they made leveling much, much faster for everybody. (Not to mention you can easily craft or buy XP potions and crafting scrolls with in-game currency.)

There are many games where you spend real money to buy magic sword of kickass +10 and the other player in PVP doesn't stand a chance.

Wut? leveling is faster compared to what? When we had vet levels sure, but the exp has been gutted since morrowind.

Certainly a lot faster than it used to be. At launch it took me 6 months playing almost every day in PVP, just to reach the beginning vet ranks, then I gave up and went to grind in Craglorn.

These days, you can easily get to 50 in a week or two from playing the game normally in PVP or doing quests. It's so fast there is really not any need to grind anymore, but if you are in an extra hurry, you can grind to 50 in a few hours. And of course, now once you reach 50 you are done.

Sure, if you spend all week doing it. But as someone who plays 2-3 hours a day at most I have noticed a considerable increase in leveling time since morrowind through questing alone. The exp amounts you get are just not adequate.

I was referring to someone playing a few hours per day above. Also, note the experience awarded for quests was increased with Morrowind patch, not decreased. What level is your character that you are finding it slower to level after Morrowind? Are you using all armor and weapons with training trait? That gives you up to around 84% XP boost and stacks with the crafted XP drinks.

There was an increase to the cost for the last few levels before 50, but reduction to the cost for the lower levels, so the total cost to reach 50 is exactly the same as it was before the patch.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Adjusted Experience (XP) for Levels 1 – 50
The experience needed to level from 1 to 50 has been adjusted. Earlier levels now require less experience to obtain, while later levels will require more.

• The total time to level from 1 to 50 should generally remain unchanged, and anyone currently leveling should not see any decrease to their current level progress; in some cases you may see an increase in level depending on progress.
• Additionally, all quests now provide more experience to help even the leveling time between those that complete quests versus simply killing monsters.

zaria

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I have zero problem with this kind of cosmetic or convenience items.

What I dislike is competitive multiplayer games where you can buy items that make you more powerful than somebody who doesn't spend money. Unfortunately there are quite a lot of games like that, but ESO is not one of them. The only weapon you could buy in ESO was the "Pay to Lose" joke broom.

We are getting there to be honest. Experience scrolls in the store, Crafting certs in the store, etc. They are really pushing the envelope. Its just a matter of time before there are crown exclusive weapons hidden behind rng.

We have had XP scrolls since the store launched. Leveling up crafting skill or XP are just convenience items. And instead of making leveling slower to persuade people to buy the scrolls, they made leveling much, much faster for everybody. (Not to mention you can easily craft or buy XP potions and crafting scrolls with in-game currency.)

There are many games where you spend real money to buy magic sword of kickass +10 and the other player in PVP doesn't stand a chance.

Yes, most P2W in ESO is horse training as this give an benefit in Cyrodil as you have some chance avoiding an aoe ambush, one sliding slope would be trait change stones in store, excuse would be its just an time saver as you can easy get them in normal trials or zerging in Cyrodil.

Inarre

Anyone who thinks eso is p2w needs to pick up an Asian run mmo that is pay to win.

Once you experience a game that is ACTUALLY p2w you begin to appreciate what you have a bit more.

ADarklore

Jade1986 wrote: »

Ha! I would throw a party if these boxes were banned. I wouldnt care if direct purchases were increased in price by 10%, maybe we can get publishers start to focus on CONTENT instead of rng nonsense.

Are you joking? They would add items to the Crown Store and charge 100-200% on them to make up for the lost revenue. They'd start selling Apex mounts at 10,000 to 15,000 Crown or more and you know what, they would sell them. After all, we have players paying hundreds for a 'chance' at a mount, I guarantee you they'd easily pay $150 to buy it outright.

Samadhi

Inarre wrote: »

Anyone who thinks eso is p2w needs to pick up an Asian run mmo that is pay to win.

Once you experience a game that is ACTUALLY p2w you begin to appreciate what you have a bit more.

Yeah, ESO having Chinese-style cash shop,
would mean the best looking Costumes would be won with the rarity of the rarest mounts
and would provide bonus effects when worn, like 4x Ultimate generation or 10 seconds of invulnerability after using an Ultimate
with no crown gem system, other rare chase prizes would be things like Dreugh Wax, which would no longer be available through in-game means
the Crown tri-restore potions that come out of them would have a 0-10 second cooldown to increase their appeal compared to what can be crafted in game
and the Crown Riding Lessons would be a method to add 60 additional stat pool on top of the maxed out default available in-game

Ashtaris

I would be OK if the crown crates went away. I have purchased them and received a couple of mounts, but usually it’s not a mount I would have preferred. I would have happily paid for one outright from the crown store if it’s reasonably priced. But as others have noted, there hasn’t been any decent offerings from the crown store in the way of mounts or pets for quite sometime. They are depending too much on crown crate sales and that’s where it needs to stop.

Ruckly

Here's a curveball:

http://www.dacardworld.com/sports-cards/baseball-cards

madchuska83

I wonder how much money was made in the few days they brought back the Storm Atranoch Crates. I really wanted one of the mounts but I saw right through that cash grab.

SirAndy

CyrusArya wrote: »

At the end of the day, it’s something ppl choose to participate in or not.

You clearly don't understand how addiction works ...

Reivax

Ruckly wrote: »

Here's a curveball:

http://www.dacardworld.com/sports-cards/baseball-cards

Funny, but reading through this whole thing, I totally equated it with baseball cards, too.

Reivax

Everyone is concerned about the crates and the gambling, but no one notices the racist portrayal of the proud khajiit people as hucksters who swindle you out of your hard earned crowns... lol

NewBlacksmurf

There is literally no way for any company to have gambling in a way that's ethical. The whole point of any company who offers any game of chance, is to include "risk", "chance", "loss" in ways that encourage people to "hope" for personal gain at the cost of the individual not the company.

By definition:
-play games of chance for money; bet
-take risky action in the hope of a desired result
-the act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly

Now ethical is:
-avoiding activities or organizations that do harm to people or the environment
-of or relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge

Smmokkee

eso_nya wrote: »

Possible outcomes if "gamble boxes" become illegal:

- games close down
- games stay p2p or go back from f2p/b2p to p2p
- sub price goes up
- non gamble cash shop prices go up (i% chance to get an item from a box thats j cs currency -> 100 x j / i will be new price)

Is not like im supporting lucky chance boxes, is just that i dont see any "positive" outcome of a ban since the industry figured out how much money ppl r willing to spend on enterainment. Its cool when you gain a fair amount of money, but as soon as u get paid more u wont be willing to do the same job for less.

Plenty of positives the first one being developers making quality games and dlc content based on the fact that they dont have any cash shop schemes or items to think up. No more selling a glowly pink mount for the revenue and getting extremely lazy.. now you really have to earn it. Also I doubt eso performance would be as bad on a p2p model.

Getting rid of gamblecrates is great for gaming period. You sound like a puppet for them spitting out all the same excuses they spit out why it wont work. They say *** like that to scare people into letting them keep making a disgusting profit on very little development.

Slick_007

danno8 wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

remove all violence while ya at it. because its well known that people who play violent video games then go out and stab people with swords and daggers etc.

ESO: where the only killing is done with kindness. player population: 2.

Take note all. This is probably the most perfect example of a strawman argument that could be drawn up.

take note all. danno8 doesnt get sarcasm.

danno8

Slick_007 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

remove all violence while ya at it. because its well known that people who play violent video games then go out and stab people with swords and daggers etc.

ESO: where the only killing is done with kindness. player population: 2.

Take note all. This is probably the most perfect example of a strawman argument that could be drawn up.

take note all. danno8 doesnt get sarcasm.

Sarcasm would imply you mean the opposite of what you are saying, which means you believe that violence should be allowed in games, contrary to your post.

Which would imply you think gambling crates should also remain in games. If that is what you meant, then yes I misunderstood you.

Easily_Lost

I know the perfect solution for this, offer the items for sale in the Crown Store. Let say at about 30,000 crowns each. That way you would know how much you would have to spend to get that special item.

Though if they did that people would complain that the price is to high.

MornaBaine

Easily_Lost wrote: »

I know the perfect solution for this, offer the items for sale in the Crown Store. Let say at about 30,000 crowns each. That way you would know how much you would have to spend to get that special item.

Though if they did that people would complain that the price is to high.

And they would be correct. Game makers need to focus on making quality products that consumers WANT. THAT is what will make us part with our $$$.

kyle.wilson

The whole loot box system has always been about tricking those most vulnerable to addiction.
I think I'll take the recommendation and send a letter to all my representatives.

There would be very little incentive for an elected official to condone pushing gambling on kids.

@ZOS_MattFiror, @ZOS_GinaBruno

LadyAstrum

CyrusArya wrote: »

I sure am glad we solved all the other problems we face in society like poverty, corruption, ludicrously inequitable distributions of wealth, for profit prisons, war profiteering, encroachment on net neutrality, crippling costs for education and health care, terrorism, crime, etc etc etc.

Thank GOD we can finally focus on the true evil and battle of our times: loot boxes in online video games.

Keep fighting the good fight you noble soldier of justice.

Real talk: it’s not gambling because you still stand to gain something for your money. It’s no more gambling than opening a pack of trading cards, for example.

In that case....we should all stop gaming post haste and go on a spree to solve the world of its problems. No takers?

They are gambling. Unlike trading cards you know you're getting a card. With loot crates you do not know what you're going to get. That must-have mount, or a bunch or not-so-desireable junk.

If the crates had a guaranteed rare...so you know there is something nice in it, even if it's not what you want, then yes, I would agree they aren't gambling, but when you've got people putting down money on a chance...a tiny % chance to get something cool, then there is an issue. At the very least, companies should be made to publish their RNG drop rate percentages, and real time if they have algorithms to change the % based on purchasing habits.

I think these things are predatory, and they do prey on the weak. There being other issues in the world does not mean that we, as gamers, should be okay with unregulated virtual gambling systems.

GimpyPorcupine

Because we all need morally dubious politicians to protect us from ourselves....or, "I don't need protection, but the people I'm better than do."

Jade1986

Hokiewa wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

I sure am glad we solved all the other problems we face in society like poverty, corruption, ludicrously inequitable distributions of wealth, for profit prisons, war profiteering, encroachment on net neutrality, crippling costs for education and health care, terrorism, crime, etc etc etc.

Thank GOD we can finally focus on the true evil and battle of our times: loot boxes in online video games.

Keep fighting the good fight you noble soldier of justice.

Real talk: it’s not gambling because you still stand to gain something for your money. It’s no more gambling than opening a pack of trading cards, for example.

Trading cards you know you are gonna get, trading cards. Please do not use false equivelancies.

Cyrus's "real talk" is actually factual in the United States. It's not a false equivalency at least in U.S. law. In a casino, you win or lose, you either go home with money or you don't. Crates/boxes etc., always give you something, there is no implicit risk of walking away with nothing which is what differentiates it from gambling in the eyes of U.S. law (precedent has been set in multiple circuit courts). Before you start on the perceived value of some of the items in the crate or the lack of apex rewards, U.S. law doesn't differentiate btw perceived lesser value items vs. greater value items (which is subjective to the end user) nor does require a company to make "everything" available through a non-required, optional play and save system (i.e. gems).

Luckily laws change, and momentum is growing against this practice. And honestly, US law sometimes is....shady...at best.

Jade1986

ADarklore wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Ha! I would throw a party if these boxes were banned. I wouldnt care if direct purchases were increased in price by 10%, maybe we can get publishers start to focus on CONTENT instead of rng nonsense.

Are you joking? They would add items to the Crown Store and charge 100-200% on them to make up for the lost revenue. They'd start selling Apex mounts at 10,000 to 15,000 Crown or more and you know what, they would sell them. After all, we have players paying hundreds for a 'chance' at a mount, I guarantee you they'd easily pay $150 to buy it outright.

Even if they cost 15 k, thats still cheapr than how much they cost atm. I want to vomit at the thought of how much money i spent trying to get the spriggan skin. Never again.

Whatzituyah

Good I am kinda glad this is becoming a thing so we have less overall encoragment for loot boxes in the future. But then again this might cause a game crash!

You know Crown Crates made me want to how we say "Take a break" for an undefined time from this game and I bought the expansion for Elder Scrolls Online nothing has changed. Am I surprised? No because B2P is close to F2P. This new change in law would probably change it though because it is addicting even with no real life value! Think about it like if your a fisherman in the ocean with bait that can catch so many creatures but you really want one fish and that fish is not as easy to catch as the other things; thats how people feel!

BlazingDynamo

I would love to see this! Honestly! So many games have become watered down and half assed because of the focus on loot crates.

I'd also like to see the percentage chances of certain items that would be cool. Lots of good things could come of this but most likely wont. Not holding my breath, all I want to see os the effort put back into making video games again.