possible law to officially label loot boxes as gambling (and more)

Wing

various political figures and law makers are now seriously looking at proposing a law that would define "gambling" in video games.

such defining points would include things such as:

-any real world purchase made for a "chance" at an in game item (this is huge as companies have previously skirted gambling accusations by saying that loot boxes cannot reward money and thus are not gambling)

-as well as laws requiring loot boxes to state the actual percent chance of acquiring items from loot crates (china already requires this)

-also any game that contains gambling would be restricted to ages 21+ and therefore receive and adult rating.

(for those that don't know this is a death sentence for games as a lot of stores like Walmart will not stock adult rated games, as adult rated is the highest rating and consists of x rated-ish games XD

there is more but these are the big points.

I would like to state that I don't have an issue with how ZOS has been doing things but I would not be sad to see it go away and items just return to the store. but I would be happy to see this hemroid on the bum of the gaming industry GO AWAY!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuucXb5yBvs

Samadhi

Wing wrote: »

...
-also any game that contains gambling would be restricted to ages 21+ and therefore receive and adult rating.

(for those that don't know this is a death sentence for games as a lot of stores like Walmart will not stock adult rated games, as adult rated is the highest rating and consists of x rated-ish games XD
...

Done as a blanket move by people who do not play or understand videogames
this could potentially put something like Fallout: New Vegas into the AO category

Turelus

I would be more than happy to see chanced based purchasing leave the games industry forever, however I don't see it happening any time in the near future.

I would hope some of the wise companies would see the trending hate for this style of sale and move away from it (some smaller ones have) but I fear the big publishers (Zenimax Media is one) are not going to abandon something which is making them great money until they really have to.

eso_nya

Possible outcomes if "gamble boxes" become illegal:

- games close down
- games stay p2p or go back from f2p/b2p to p2p
- sub price goes up
- non gamble cash shop prices go up (i% chance to get an item from a box thats j cs currency -> 100 x j / i will be new price)

Is not like im supporting lucky chance boxes, is just that i dont see any "positive" outcome of a ban since the industry figured out how much money ppl r willing to spend on enterainment. Its cool when you gain a fair amount of money, but as soon as u get paid more u wont be willing to do the same job for less.

Massive_Stain

Its a needed change that the industry needs in order to move forward. There are many reasons why loot boxes are cancerous, and gambling is one.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Already wrote to one lawmaker on this and if I figure out who else in the chain of command would be appropriate to contact I'll write them too. Whatever exploits that exist in the law that allow crates to exist have been there for too long already; it's long past the time where it should have been patched out.

Huyen

Samadhi wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

...
-also any game that contains gambling would be restricted to ages 21+ and therefore receive and adult rating.

(for those that don't know this is a death sentence for games as a lot of stores like Walmart will not stock adult rated games, as adult rated is the highest rating and consists of x rated-ish games XD
...

Done as a blanket move by people who do not play or understand videogames
this could potentially put something like Fallout: New Vegas into the AO category

This is why ESO is rated 18+ in many country's. Because of the gambling. Sadly its easy to go past it by selecting accept without checking if your age applies.

Turelus

Huyen wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

...
-also any game that contains gambling would be restricted to ages 21+ and therefore receive and adult rating.

(for those that don't know this is a death sentence for games as a lot of stores like Walmart will not stock adult rated games, as adult rated is the highest rating and consists of x rated-ish games XD
...

Done as a blanket move by people who do not play or understand videogames
this could potentially put something like Fallout: New Vegas into the AO category

This is why ESO is rated 18+ in many country's. Because of the gambling. Sadly its easy to go past it by selecting accept without checking if your age applies.

Actually it's because of the blood added with Dark Brotherhood or other areas, it launched at 16+.

MornaBaine

I am actually glad about the whole Battlefront 2 fiasco. Because I hope it signals the end of consumer tolerance for this nonsense in any form on any platform. Even with the "it's just cosmetics" prattle spouted here, since the introduction of the gamble boxes here in ESO I have watched actual crown store offerings diminish in number and degrade in quality in favor of putting every little thing in gamble boxes when we were initially told they would contain nothing more than "special" mounts and items that HAD ONCE BEEN in the crown store but had been removed so that people could have "a second chance" at them via the gamble boxes and a range of consumables. Items long ago datamined are being held back instead of being put in the crown store for a straight price to instead be included in future gamble box "seasons."

I would GLADLY go back to a sub model, even a $20 a month sub cost AND having to additionally buy any DLC that comes out in order to get rid of the gamble boxes. I believe this would revitalize the crown store as well because then they would need to vastly expand its offerings to keep the money from the sale of digital offerings coming in. But as long as they are allowed to keep all the most desirable items locked in gamble boxes they have absolutely no incentive to make better and more crown store offerings. Gamble boxes not only rake in easy profits, they let the developers be incredibly lazy about designing new products.

I don't want to depend on politicians to "save us from ourselves" and make laws regarding this issue. But I don't much care if they do. What I'd REALLY like to see is all of us, as paying customers, finally put down our collective foot and tell ZOS, and the gaming industry in general, that enough is enough and demand that they begin treating us with a modicum of respect.

Dapper Dinosaur

I'm rooting for this new law(s) 100%. I particularly hope Zenimax's profit margins get utterly trashed by it, they deserve some big hits for their ungodly prices on everything in the crown store. The only things in there that are priced reasonably are the DLC zones (with the exception of Morrowind, which was only acceptable when it was 50% off recently).

Maybe once they start taking a nosedive they'll clean up their act and stop being so greedy.

Jade1986

Ha! I would throw a party if these boxes were banned. I wouldnt care if direct purchases were increased in price by 10%, maybe we can get publishers start to focus on CONTENT instead of rng nonsense.

Slick_007

remove all violence while ya at it. because its well known that people who play violent video games then go out and stab people with swords and daggers etc.

ESO: where the only killing is done with kindness. player population: 2.

Jade1986

Slick_007 wrote: »

remove all violence while ya at it. because its well known that people who play violent video games then go out and stab people with swords and daggers etc.

ESO: where the only killing is done with kindness. player population: 2.

Sarcasm aside, violent video games do not correlate into violent people. Never has. Gambling has however lead to adrenaline addiction.

danno8

Slick_007 wrote: »

remove all violence while ya at it. because its well known that people who play violent video games then go out and stab people with swords and daggers etc.

ESO: where the only killing is done with kindness. player population: 2.

Take note all. This is probably the most perfect example of a strawman argument that could be drawn up.

CyrusArya

I sure am glad we solved all the other problems we face in society like poverty, corruption, ludicrously inequitable distributions of wealth, for profit prisons, war profiteering, encroachment on net neutrality, crippling costs for education and health care, terrorism, crime, etc etc etc.

Thank GOD we can finally focus on the true evil and battle of our times: loot boxes in online video games.

Keep fighting the good fight you noble soldier of justice.

Real talk: it’s not gambling because you still stand to gain something for your money. It’s no more gambling than opening a pack of trading cards, for example.

AlienSlof

I'd be delighted to see the gamble crates go away. It's a very cynical way to treat one's paying customers.

ZOS 'promised' that the crates wouldn't impact CS direct sale offerings, yet they have done just that. Direct purchases are becoming fewer and fewer, and of questionable quality, while the really desirable stuff goes into the crates. December Crown Store anyone? Sparse direct sale offerings and YET MORE CRATES. AND STILL MORE CRATES after those!

Outlawing these nasty things can't happen soon enough for me.

Jade1986

CyrusArya wrote: »

I sure am glad we solved all the other problems we face in society like poverty, corruption, ludicrously inequitable distributions of wealth, for profit prisons, war profiteering, encroachment on net neutrality, crippling costs for education and health care, terrorism, crime, etc etc etc.

Thank GOD we can finally focus on the true evil and battle of our times: loot boxes in online video games.

Keep fighting the good fight you noble soldier of justice.

Real talk: it’s not gambling because you still stand to gain something for your money. It’s no more gambling than opening a pack of trading cards, for example.

Trading cards you know you are gonna get, trading cards. Please do not use false equivelancies.

IcyDeadPeople

I have zero problem with this kind of cosmetic or convenience items.

What I dislike is competitive multiplayer games where you can buy items that make you more powerful than somebody who doesn't spend money. Unfortunately there are quite a lot of games like that, but ESO is not one of them. The only weapon you could buy in ESO was the "Pay to Lose" joke broom.

Jade1986

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I have zero problem with this kind of cosmetic or convenience items.

What I dislike is competitive multiplayer games where you can buy items that make you more powerful than somebody who doesn't spend money. Unfortunately there are quite a lot of games like that, but ESO is not one of them. The only weapon you could buy in ESO was the "Pay to Lose" joke broom.

We are getting there to be honest. Experience scrolls in the store, Crafting certs in the store, etc. They are really pushing the envelope. Its just a matter of time before there are crown exclusive weapons hidden behind rng.

IcyDeadPeople

Jade1986 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I have zero problem with this kind of cosmetic or convenience items.

What I dislike is competitive multiplayer games where you can buy items that make you more powerful than somebody who doesn't spend money. Unfortunately there are quite a lot of games like that, but ESO is not one of them. The only weapon you could buy in ESO was the "Pay to Lose" joke broom.

We are getting there to be honest. Experience scrolls in the store, Crafting certs in the store, etc. They are really pushing the envelope. Its just a matter of time before there are crown exclusive weapons hidden behind rng.

We have had XP scrolls since the store launched. Leveling up crafting skill or XP are just convenience items. And instead of making leveling slower to persuade people to buy the scrolls, they made leveling much, much faster for everybody. (Not to mention you can easily craft or buy XP potions and crafting scrolls with in-game currency.)

There are many games where you spend real money to buy magic sword of kickass +10 and the other player in PVP doesn't stand a chance.

Nightves

ESO is pay to play with the initial purchase, has a lot of DLC, and people paying monthly subscriptions yet they still want the income that goes into these roll the dice to maybe get something nice middle fingers. I have more of a chance to walk through oncoming traffic and survive than to get anything reasonable out of Crown Crates.

It's an absolute joke, I'd rather have crowns to purchase what I actually want out of an event, because that's the whole purpose right? To allow players to experience the event to full capacity.. Hell, even in Overwatch they give you chances to get all the skins through a credit system. But I don't have to pay for those. I get them just by playing the game.

Meanwhile Zo$ will grasp your wallet by the taint over the last bottle of water in the Saihara.

Jade1986

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I have zero problem with this kind of cosmetic or convenience items.

What I dislike is competitive multiplayer games where you can buy items that make you more powerful than somebody who doesn't spend money. Unfortunately there are quite a lot of games like that, but ESO is not one of them. The only weapon you could buy in ESO was the "Pay to Lose" joke broom.

We are getting there to be honest. Experience scrolls in the store, Crafting certs in the store, etc. They are really pushing the envelope. Its just a matter of time before there are crown exclusive weapons hidden behind rng.

We have had XP scrolls since the store launched. Leveling up crafting skill or XP are just convenience items. And instead of making leveling slower to persuade people to buy the scrolls, they made leveling much, much faster for everybody. (Not to mention you can easily craft or buy XP potions and crafting scrolls with in-game currency.)

There are many games where you spend real money to buy magic sword of kickass +10 and the other player in PVP doesn't stand a chance.

Wut? leveling is faster compared to what? When we had vet levels sure, but the exp has been gutted since morrowind.

CyrusArya

Jade1986 wrote: »

Trading cards you know you are gonna get, trading cards. Please do not use false equivelancies.

Yeah and in crown crates you know you’re gonna get some form of digital content. Just not necesarrily the coveted or valuable ones...just like with trading cards. They aren’t called fancy mount crates, they are called crown crates. Your delusions of entitlement are a personal problem, not a legal concern for ZOS or other players. Nor should it be. Players don’t own a damn thing in this game anyways, lol. You pay for access to a service.

Here’s a novel idea: if people don’t like crown crates, don’t buy em. At the end of the day, it’s something ppl choose to participate in or not.

IcyDeadPeople

Jade1986 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I have zero problem with this kind of cosmetic or convenience items.

What I dislike is competitive multiplayer games where you can buy items that make you more powerful than somebody who doesn't spend money. Unfortunately there are quite a lot of games like that, but ESO is not one of them. The only weapon you could buy in ESO was the "Pay to Lose" joke broom.

We are getting there to be honest. Experience scrolls in the store, Crafting certs in the store, etc. They are really pushing the envelope. Its just a matter of time before there are crown exclusive weapons hidden behind rng.

We have had XP scrolls since the store launched. Leveling up crafting skill or XP are just convenience items. And instead of making leveling slower to persuade people to buy the scrolls, they made leveling much, much faster for everybody. (Not to mention you can easily craft or buy XP potions and crafting scrolls with in-game currency.)

There are many games where you spend real money to buy magic sword of kickass +10 and the other player in PVP doesn't stand a chance.

Wut? leveling is faster compared to what? When we had vet levels sure, but the exp has been gutted since morrowind.

Certainly a lot faster than it used to be. At launch it took me 6 months playing almost every day in PVP, just to reach the beginning vet ranks, then I gave up and went to grind in Craglorn.

These days, you can easily get to 50 in a week or two from playing the game normally in PVP or doing quests. It's so fast there is really not any need to grind anymore, but if you are in an extra hurry, you can grind to 50 in a few hours. And of course, now once you reach 50 you are done.

The very recent changes have also increased the rate of XP gain for quests as well as battlegrounds, but ultimately grinding is still fastest way to level.

Not sure if you participated in Morrowind beta or played battlegrounds during the first month or two after it launched, but it used to provide almost zero XP. Now it could still be higher, but they recently increased it a lot, enough to level up playing battlegrounds. They also recently increased the rate of AP gain in BG, seems to be about double what it was previously.

supaskrub

Jade1986 wrote: »

We are getting there to be honest. Experience scrolls in the store, Crafting certs in the store, etc. They are really pushing the envelope. Its just a matter of time before there are crown exclusive weapons hidden behind rng.

You need to learn the difference between "pay to win" and "pay for convenience"... Pay for convenience doe'snt not mean that pay to win is the next step.

As to giving games a 21 rating due to having "gambling crate" purchases then that is just as hollow as the game being a PEGI 18 now. PEGI is a system in place that prevents shopkeepers/stores etc selling to people below the age stated and has NO legal standing on how old the person playing the game has to be. IE I could buy the game and gift it to a five year old and no law is broken. So its not as simple as just awarding a higher age rating as the complete system would need reworking and this would *** quite a few of the civil liberties people off. PEGI gives a system where parents (and rightly so) decide what content their children have access to.

lagrue

I say it everytime one of these stupid threads pops up. You're playing a game with RNG mechanics - RNG in itself is gambling. You invest time, tonnes of time, with no promised returns, and without a guarantee of knowing what you're going to get.

Ermiq

eso_nya wrote: »

Possible outcomes if "gamble boxes" become illegal:

- games close down
- games stay p2p or go back from f2p/b2p to p2p
- sub price goes up
- non gamble cash shop prices go up (i% chance to get an item from a box thats j cs currency -> 100 x j / i will be new price).

I definitely prefer to pay fixed price even if it'll be higher than now. I understand that this can affect those things that are not in the crates now. But it's not that bad.
I think statistically we're already paying quite high price for all the goods in crates.
I've spent 5000 crowns on flame Atronach crates. I've got a flame wolf, Yokudan motif and some useless ugly hats & tattoos.
Previously, I've spent 14000 crowns on Dwemer crates and didn't get any mount nor motif, I've got just pets and costumes I'd never buy. I don't count consumables, 'cause I don't need them at all. Then I spent gems on mount, 3 costumes and 2 pets I like.
So, let's make some math.
2 mounts + 3 costumes + 2 pets + 1 motif = 19000 crowns.
Is this price justified? I'm not shure.
I'd better spend 2500 crowns for a mount and I'd be satisfied with that. But child in my brain is shouting "I need that pretty horse! No matter how much crates you'll open!" And I'm going to this casino and spending all that money for a mount and a lot of garbage.

Jade1986

supaskrub wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

We are getting there to be honest. Experience scrolls in the store, Crafting certs in the store, etc. They are really pushing the envelope. Its just a matter of time before there are crown exclusive weapons hidden behind rng.

You need to learn the difference between "pay to win" and "pay for convenience"... Pay for convenience doe'snt not mean that pay to win is the next step.

As to giving games a 21 rating due to having "gambling crate" purchases then that is just as hollow as the game being a PEGI 18 now. PEGI is a system in place that prevents shopkeepers/stores etc selling to people below the age stated and has NO legal standing on how old the person playing the game has to be. IE I could buy the game and gift it to a five year old and no law is broken. So its not as simple as just awarding a higher age rating as the complete system would need reworking and this would *** quite a few of the civil liberties people off. PEGI gives a system where parents (and rightly so) decide what content their children have access to.

The Pegi version of AO doesnt usually give the game in Europe a death sentence. However it doe in the US. So it would give the companies pause if that were to happen.

Crafting certs being put in the store is indeed a move toward p2w. You have a limited amount of certs you can do per day in game, with those you could max crafting in a day if you blew enough money.

CyrusArya wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Trading cards you know you are gonna get, trading cards. Please do not use false equivelancies.

Yeah and in crown crates you know you’re gonna get some form of digital content. Just not necesarrily the coveted or valuable ones...just like with trading cards. They aren’t called fancy mount crates, they are called crown crates. Your delusions of entitlement are a personal problem, not a legal concern for ZOS or other players. Nor should it be. Players don’t own a damn thing in this game anyways, lol. You pay for access to a service.

Here’s a novel idea: if people like crown crates, don’t buy em. At the end of the day, it’s something ppl choose to participate in or not.

You are guaranteed to get CARDS though, by your comparison they would and should be able to get marbles in card packs. It was, ad still is a false equivelancy. The closest thing crown crates come to as a comparison would be slot machines, and those are gambling.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I have zero problem with this kind of cosmetic or convenience items.

What I dislike is competitive multiplayer games where you can buy items that make you more powerful than somebody who doesn't spend money. Unfortunately there are quite a lot of games like that, but ESO is not one of them. The only weapon you could buy in ESO was the "Pay to Lose" joke broom.

We are getting there to be honest. Experience scrolls in the store, Crafting certs in the store, etc. They are really pushing the envelope. Its just a matter of time before there are crown exclusive weapons hidden behind rng.

We have had XP scrolls since the store launched. Leveling up crafting skill or XP are just convenience items. And instead of making leveling slower to persuade people to buy the scrolls, they made leveling much, much faster for everybody. (Not to mention you can easily craft or buy XP potions and crafting scrolls with in-game currency.)

There are many games where you spend real money to buy magic sword of kickass +10 and the other player in PVP doesn't stand a chance.

Wut? leveling is faster compared to what? When we had vet levels sure, but the exp has been gutted since morrowind.

Certainly a lot faster than it used to be. At launch it took me 6 months playing almost every day in PVP, just to reach the beginning vet ranks, then I gave up and went to grind in Craglorn.

These days, you can easily get to 50 in a week or two from playing the game normally in PVP or doing quests. It's so fast there is really not any need to grind anymore, but if you are in an extra hurry, you can grind to 50 in a few hours. And of course, now once you reach 50 you are done.

Sure, if you spend all week doing it. But as someone who plays 2-3 hours a day at most I have noticed a considerable increase in leveling time since morrowind through questing alone. The exp amounts you get are just not adequate.

MrCray78

TESO are already 18+ ...

Hokiewa

Jade1986 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

I sure am glad we solved all the other problems we face in society like poverty, corruption, ludicrously inequitable distributions of wealth, for profit prisons, war profiteering, encroachment on net neutrality, crippling costs for education and health care, terrorism, crime, etc etc etc.

Thank GOD we can finally focus on the true evil and battle of our times: loot boxes in online video games.

Keep fighting the good fight you noble soldier of justice.

Real talk: it’s not gambling because you still stand to gain something for your money. It’s no more gambling than opening a pack of trading cards, for example.

Trading cards you know you are gonna get, trading cards. Please do not use false equivelancies.

Cyrus's "real talk" is actually factual in the United States. It's not a false equivalency at least in U.S. law. In a casino, you win or lose, you either go home with money or you don't. Crates/boxes etc., always give you something, there is no implicit risk of walking away with nothing which is what differentiates it from gambling in the eyes of U.S. law (precedent has been set in multiple circuit courts). Before you start on the perceived value of some of the items in the crate or the lack of apex rewards, U.S. law doesn't differentiate btw perceived lesser value items vs. greater value items (which is subjective to the end user) nor does require a company to make "everything" available through a non-required, optional play and save system (i.e. gems).

resdayn00

Wing wrote: »

-also any game that contains gambling would be restricted to ages 21+ and therefore receive and adult rating.

(for those that don't know this is a death sentence for games as a lot of stores like Walmart will not stock adult rated games, as adult rated is the highest rating and consists of x rated-ish games XD

I would just like to add that this is not at all a death sentence, as digital sales are much more prominent now than retail sales. Compared to 6-7 years ago, statistics have now basically turned to favor digital sales, and if the trend continues at this rate, retail sales will almost completely diminish in just a few years.

About gambling in video games:
If you call loot boxes, or Crown Crates as part of gambling, you need to redefine gambling. Compared to IRL gambling, loot boxes (Crown Crates included) are guaranteed to contain something. You really have nothing to lose as you either get the guaranteed minimum, or something more, and in this sense, you might be paying for that which is guaranteed. The thing is, as long as something is guaranteed in return for your money, it's hard to call it gambling.

EDIT: before flaming starts, I'm not defending Crown Crates, just stating a fact.