wish we could scrap evasion and get something else...

idk

SodanTok wrote: »

Evasion should be scraped, but not because it is strong (or OP), but because it is bad and unreliable. Medium armor both in PVE and PVP struggles very hard against undodgeable damage, evasion does not help with it at all, making it very weak defensive mechanism.

According to many of those in this thread it is OP. Even the OP incorrectly states that it can cripple any form of damage.

SodanTok

idk wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Evasion should be scraped, but not because it is strong (or OP), but because it is bad and unreliable. Medium armor both in PVE and PVP struggles very hard against undodgeable damage, evasion does not help with it at all, making it very weak defensive mechanism.

According to many of those in this thread it is OP. Even the OP incorrectly states that it can cripple any form of damage.

Probably the same people that think shuffle is good for the evasion and not for the snare removal.

Evasion was actually good ~1 year ago and back then people complained a lot. If people still cant deal with it now, they are simply bad.

Pastas

dsalter wrote: »

ESO just doesnt need evasion chances, thats what activly dodge rolling is for. just shoving shuffle and dodge rolling every so often on can really cripple any form of damage you can deal in most cases.
why cant we replace with with a chance to reflect?
its a defensive effect, same function as dodge roll, doesnt completely nullify the attacks, doesnt make dodge builds so bloody fustrating.
its a buff since it can help them deal damage instead of taking it, but a nerf since theres no more of this broken lingering dodge every projectile in that short time frame thing.

...if you don't play medium armour.

TheYKcid

@dsalter

But what's so evil about passive mechanics?

That stamsorc you run in PvP can pop a crit surge and receive passive healing for the next 33 seconds while staying on the offensive, while most other stam builds rely on active heals. But I'm not implying this is overpowered in any way - it makes sorcs unique and I like that.

And I get that surge isn't providing all of your healing. You still need to actively use vigor, DD, and perhaps rally too as the situation demands.

Well shuffle isn't providing all the mitigation a medium armor user needs either. If someone in medium isn't prodigiously using his rolls and block to mitigate burst, they are going to get melted. It's a 15% chance, guys. With many caveats attached (which I listed in my previous post), resulting in shuffle falling far short of protecting you from 15% of incoming attacks.

Turning shuffle into a 3s 100% dodge would be redundant, since dodge rolling already exists. It's also a step towards homogenising it with shields, just crappier (shorter duration and unreliable against numerous forms of damage). More homogeneity, and nerfs to medium armor, are the opposite of what the game needs.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

kessik221 wrote: »

The argument to be made for the other 2 skill lines ability vs evasion is that you can build to counter the other 2 via penetration or oblivion damage, passive dodge has no counter. Medium armor is supposed to be about mobility so redesigning this skill with that in mind would make more sense. Perhaps granting major expedition for 8 seconds in addition to its current morphs?

Active and passive dodge do have a counter. It’s called the immense amount of undodgable and AoE attacks in the game lol. You people can’t actually be serious here? Medium armor, compared to light and heavy, is currently the weakest of the three armor types. The only issue with dodge chance was from months ago when people were exploiting shuffle stack, and I can’t even confirm if that was real or people just complaining. Major evasion has already been nerfed once. Skills and/or buffs like major evasion exist in damn near all MMO’s in some capacity. I would say shields are 1000 times more powerful than shuffle. I have zero issues killing someone who has major evasion up. Zero.

That being said, as a person in 7/7 medium I could absolutely care less if they removed major evasion as I really only use shuffle for the snare removal. If they removed major evasion and gave a longer snare and immobilize immunity and maybe major expedition that would be fine with me. One morph would add major expedition and the other would give minor brutality or something. Two good buffs to really make people make their choice mean something.

TheYKcid

dsalter wrote: »

you can take dots out of that list due to most dots requiring skills to land in the first place.

On a side note... the argument that evasion is an effective counter to DoTs is also problematic, for two reasons that I can see.

For one (and this is picking at the small details, admittedly), a bunch of DoTs are applied by an AoE and thus can't be evaded. DK breath, DK talons, and the DoT component of dawnbreaker are some examples.

But more importantly, DoTs aren't being used as part of a burst combo—they're used for pressure. You don't need to land them at an exact point in time in order to secure a kill. Shuffle evaded your single-target DoT attack? No problem, apply it again on your next GCD (you have an 85% chance of success, btw) and drop your killing combo at a later time when your target has been worn-down into burst range.

DoTs only matter when they're already on your target and chipping away at their health, and evasion does nothing in that scenario. If you're not ensuring proper pressure and saving your burst for the appropriate time, that one's on you. Not shuffle.

Xvorg

SodanTok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Evasion should be scraped, but not because it is strong (or OP), but because it is bad and unreliable. Medium armor both in PVE and PVP struggles very hard against undodgeable damage, evasion does not help with it at all, making it very weak defensive mechanism.

According to many of those in this thread it is OP. Even the OP incorrectly states that it can cripple any form of damage.

Probably the same people that think shuffle is good for the evasion and not for the snare removal.

Evasion was actually good ~1 year ago and back then people complained a lot. If people still cant deal with it now, they are simply bad.

Evasion was good when major evasion was 20%. I had no problem with that, just sloting the old sould assault was enough

Xvorg

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

That being said, as a person in 7/7 medium I could absolutely care less if they removed major evasion as I really only use shuffle for the snare removal. If they removed major evasion and gave a longer snare and immobilize immunity and maybe major expedition that would be fine with me. One morph would add major expedition and the other would give minor brutality or something. Two good buffs to really make people make their choice mean something.

Minor berserk and I'm in.

idk

TheYKcid wrote: »

@dsalter

But what's so evil about passive mechanics?

That stamsorc you run in PvP can pop a crit surge and receive passive healing for the next 33 seconds while staying on the offensive, while most other stam builds rely on active heals. But I'm not implying this is overpowered in any way - it makes sorcs unique and I like that.

And I get that surge isn't providing all of your healing. You still need to actively use vigor, DD, and perhaps rally too as the situation demands.

Well shuffle isn't providing all the mitigation a medium armor user needs either. If someone in medium isn't prodigiously using his rolls and block to mitigate burst, they are going to get melted. It's a 15% chance, guys. With many caveats attached (which I listed in my previous post), resulting in shuffle falling far short of protecting you from 15% of incoming attacks.

Turning shuffle into a 3s 100% dodge would be redundant, since dodge rolling already exists. It's also a step towards homogenising it with shields, just crappier (shorter duration and unreliable against numerous forms of damage). More homogeneity, and nerfs to medium armor, are the opposite of what the game needs.

Thank you for bringing in your thorough explanation of how things really work.

It's easy to criticize only being able to land 85% of your damage attacks (really closer to 90% with what cannot be dodged) when sitting behind a magicks shield or two.

BroanBeast1215

kessik221 wrote: »

The argument to be made for the other 2 skill lines ability vs evasion is that you can build to counter the other 2 via penetration or oblivion damage, passive dodge has no counter. Medium armor is supposed to be about mobility so redesigning this skill with that in mind would make more sense. Perhaps granting major expedition for 8 seconds in addition to its current morphs?

passive dodge has not counter? LOL

BroanBeast1215

dsalter wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

No counter to evasion?

-Beam skills
-Skills that actively ignore it (birds, fossilize, rune cage, etc.)
-All DoTs
-All AoEs

There's a reason medium armor sucks so bad—because its main defensive mechanic is utterly *** on by a large proportion of the damage in this game.

Wouldn't be surprised if the anti-evasion camp in this thread are all mag players (OP is a magsorc, whaddya know).

you can take dots out of that list due to most dots requiring skills to land in the first place.

the point isnt that evasion is good or bad, its the fact its able to passivly do the work for you by fire and forgetting.
hell bump it up to 100% and only a 3 second evasion time and i'd be all for it.
its the MOBA theme of 15_ seconds of passivly doing the dodging for you in a fast paced game like ESO it just doesnt belong.
wanna keep the long term dodge chance? fine gimmie my landmines that can be placed everywhere, skills that infinitly get stronger the more i spam them, etc.
see how broken they'd be in this environment?
evasion is currently a cheesy function, the hist set that adds evasion to blocking because it requires ACTIVELY BLOCKING.

and FYI i run a stam sorc in pvp. nice try aiming for bias tho.

its a 15% chance to dodge jeez man, you make it seem as if for the entire duration that the stamina user dodges everything

also you said you run stam sorc but mentioned wanting to be able to throw mines down everywhere seems like someone isn't telling the truth

dsalter

TheYKcid wrote: »

@dsalter

But what's so evil about passive mechanics?

That stamsorc you run in PvP can pop a crit surge and receive passive healing for the next 33 seconds while staying on the offensive, while most other stam builds rely on active heals. But I'm not implying this is overpowered in any way - it makes sorcs unique and I like that.

And I get that surge isn't providing all of your healing. You still need to actively use vigor, DD, and perhaps rally too as the situation demands.

Well shuffle isn't providing all the mitigation a medium armor user needs either. If someone in medium isn't prodigiously using his rolls and block to mitigate burst, they are going to get melted. It's a 15% chance, guys. With many caveats attached (which I listed in my previous post), resulting in shuffle falling far short of protecting you from 15% of incoming attacks.

Turning shuffle into a 3s 100% dodge would be redundant, since dodge rolling already exists. It's also a step towards homogenising it with shields, just crappier (shorter duration and unreliable against numerous forms of damage). More homogeneity, and nerfs to medium armor, are the opposite of what the game needs.

passives aren't really my thing, i mean surge for instance still requires you to actively apply it by using combat skills (think poisons, you activate it well ahead of combat but it's useless unless applied in a fight) where as evasion basically "dodge rolls" for you without the cost or effort

agaon just stating i dont love or hate evasion, i just doesnt fit into a fast paced game where everything is active

TheYKcid

dsalter wrote: »

passives aren't really my thing, i mean surge for instance still requires you to actively apply it by using combat skills (think poisons, you activate it well ahead of combat but it's useless unless applied in a fight) where as evasion basically "dodge rolls" for you without the cost or effort

agaon just stating i dont love or hate evasion, i just doesnt fit into a fast paced game where everything is active

But that does make it a passive thing haha. Because you would be performing those combat skills anyway, with or without surge. It quite literally serves as a passive layer of healing with no extra input versus the baseline, apart from the initial act of casting the buff.

If anything, it makes combat less active (or at the very least, less dynamic) since it raises the threshold of pressure you can endure before consciously switching to defensive play.

But once again, I don't criticise or support it based on my preference of active vs. passive styles of play. For what it's worth, I don't run shuffle, but I do have a preference for heavy armor builds due to similar principles as surge on sorcs (it enables me to counterpressure through low levels of incoming damage rather than constantly alternating between windows of defensiveness and burst).

Balance debates should be about how something compares to its alternatives, and not about what we personally like or dislike.

idk

dsalter wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

@dsalter

But what's so evil about passive mechanics?

That stamsorc you run in PvP can pop a crit surge and receive passive healing for the next 33 seconds while staying on the offensive, while most other stam builds rely on active heals. But I'm not implying this is overpowered in any way - it makes sorcs unique and I like that.

And I get that surge isn't providing all of your healing. You still need to actively use vigor, DD, and perhaps rally too as the situation demands.

Well shuffle isn't providing all the mitigation a medium armor user needs either. If someone in medium isn't prodigiously using his rolls and block to mitigate burst, they are going to get melted. It's a 15% chance, guys. With many caveats attached (which I listed in my previous post), resulting in shuffle falling far short of protecting you from 15% of incoming attacks.

Turning shuffle into a 3s 100% dodge would be redundant, since dodge rolling already exists. It's also a step towards homogenising it with shields, just crappier (shorter duration and unreliable against numerous forms of damage). More homogeneity, and nerfs to medium armor, are the opposite of what the game needs.

passives aren't really my thing, i mean surge for instance still requires you to actively apply it by using combat skills (think poisons, you activate it well ahead of combat but it's useless unless applied in a fight) where as evasion basically "dodge rolls" for you without the cost or effort

agaon just stating i dont love or hate evasion, i just doesnt fit into a fast paced game where everything is active

Your attempt at logic is rather weak. Passively being healed because one is doing some damage vs a low chance to passively dodge specific attacks because your taking damage is such a fine line it's not worth trying to suggest it's somehow a significant damage.

Again. What is conveniently being ignored by some sitting behind their magicks shields is that a great many have no issues killing players using evasion. What do those in this thread against it have such a huge problem with it?

No one has provided a worth reason for removing the buff from the game. I don't like it or it is most certainly not a valid reason.

dsalter

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

No counter to evasion?

-Beam skills
-Skills that actively ignore it (birds, fossilize, rune cage, etc.)
-All DoTs
-All AoEs

There's a reason medium armor sucks so bad—because its main defensive mechanic is utterly *** on by a large proportion of the damage in this game.

Wouldn't be surprised if the anti-evasion camp in this thread are all mag players (OP is a magsorc, whaddya know).

you can take dots out of that list due to most dots requiring skills to land in the first place.

the point isnt that evasion is good or bad, its the fact its able to passivly do the work for you by fire and forgetting.
hell bump it up to 100% and only a 3 second evasion time and i'd be all for it.
its the MOBA theme of 15_ seconds of passivly doing the dodging for you in a fast paced game like ESO it just doesnt belong.
wanna keep the long term dodge chance? fine gimmie my landmines that can be placed everywhere, skills that infinitly get stronger the more i spam them, etc.
see how broken they'd be in this environment?
evasion is currently a cheesy function, the hist set that adds evasion to blocking because it requires ACTIVELY BLOCKING.

and FYI i run a stam sorc in pvp. nice try aiming for bias tho.

its a 15% chance to dodge jeez man, you make it seem as if for the entire duration that the stamina user dodges everything

also you said you run stam sorc but mentioned wanting to be able to throw mines down everywhere seems like someone isn't telling the truth

refering to actual mines, more of a joke response than anything, never understood why our daedric mines were visible