FAKE TANKS everywhere - ZOS please TAUNT CHECK

Elsonso

Urza1234 wrote: »

To sum up the whole multi-month discussion so far.

Group A: "Fake tanking isnt a problem because I personally dont have to deal with it."
(ie the "let them eat cake" crowd)

Group B: "Fake tanking is great. I cAn SoLo EvErY dUnGeOn with 800k DPS."
(ie probably the problem people)

Group C: "I can heal through fake tanks, and I'd rather have fake tank than fake DPS"
(ie deflect using a false choice. Fake tanks and bad dps are not the same thing, and we dont have to compare them)

Group D : "I fake tank all the time with sword/shield and a taunt but with only 18k HP."
(ie people who are not the problem, clearly have no clue what most who have a problem mean by "fake tank", but decided to come here and tell us that they themselves personally are not the problem.)

Group E: The people who are using the groupfinder as intended, not as a full group, and not as a false role.
(ie the people who actually have a problem)

You missed the "keep it simple" people who don't want ZOS defining what a "tank" or "healer" is. People forget that ZOS is slow to adapt to the way the players play the game and they don't always get things right. They tend to introduce bugs into the game in a seemingly random fashion. Do we really want ZOS blocking people from the tank role because they suddenly don't recognize some skill as being a taunt, or they added a taunt to the game but did not add it to the inclusion list? It could take months to get that fixed!

So, add me to the that group.

Urza1234

lordrichter wrote: »

Urza1234 wrote: »

To sum up the whole multi-month discussion so far.

Group A: "Fake tanking isnt a problem because I personally dont have to deal with it."
(ie the "let them eat cake" crowd)

Group B: "Fake tanking is great. I cAn SoLo EvErY dUnGeOn with 800k DPS."
(ie probably the problem people)

Group C: "I can heal through fake tanks, and I'd rather have fake tank than fake DPS"
(ie deflect using a false choice. Fake tanks and bad dps are not the same thing, and we dont have to compare them)

Group D : "I fake tank all the time with sword/shield and a taunt but with only 18k HP."
(ie people who are not the problem, clearly have no clue what most who have a problem mean by "fake tank", but decided to come here and tell us that they themselves personally are not the problem.)

Group E: The people who are using the groupfinder as intended, not as a full group, and not as a false role.
(ie the people who actually have a problem)

You missed the "keep it simple" people who don't want ZOS defining what a "tank" or "healer" is. People forget that ZOS is slow to adapt to the way the players play the game and they don't always get things right. They tend to introduce bugs into the game in a seemingly random fashion. Do we really want ZOS blocking people from the tank role because they suddenly don't recognize some skill as being a taunt, or they added a taunt to the game but did not add it to the inclusion list? It could take months to get that fixed!

So, add me to the that group.

Group F: Libertarians.

Dont worry, its a joke in kindly manner.

ecru

Dymence wrote: »

I can literally solo normal dungeons. I assume many people can, it's practically the same as overland questing.

So I queue as whatever. I need the random dungeon finder queue rewards.

Take your crying elsewhere, and be glad you get carried.

people don't queue for dungeons to solo them. hope that helps.

ecru

SoLooney wrote: »

im sorry but non dlc normals are faceroll easy and if you cant heal the damage on normal, thats a lrn2play problem.

4 dps on normals goes by way faster than having a tank and a healer

there are 6 dlc dungeons that pop up in the queue quite often which the cp170 14k hp "tank" and other low cp dps will wipe on over and over again. i've had my time wasted by these groups numerous times and i'm not too happy about it--i don't queue for a random normal to hold threat in a dlc dungeon for the entire run.

this isn't hard to figure out.

Zbigb4life

eso_nya wrote: »

Meh, leave current gf as is and put in a checker "1337 only" which is locked for tanks below 50k health, dds below 50k dps and heals below 50k hps (or whatever numbers r cool nowadays).
If u activate it, u will be in seperate q with ppl who can activate it aswell.....

As for current event: If u cant solo normal dungeons, u shouldnt q for random normal and hope u find a carry.

Well remember not everyone is as good as you

LeagueTroll

VaranisArano wrote: »

Look, we all know normal dungeons can be run with 4 DDs. I've done it. We all know normal dungoens can be soloed. I've done that too.

Its still EASIER and FASTER if someone slots a TAUNT!

The boss stays still! You wanna complain about low DPS? How about not letting the boss run out of all the ground-based AOE?
The boss doesn't go after other players! The DPS can damage without the boss chasing them when they didn't build for that. The healer can heal without the boss trying to smash them.

If your DPS is that amazing, just slot a taunt, and you'll get the best effectiveness out of your group. Or don't, and you'll never know how fast you could have gone. Holding the boss still and holding aggro makes even Normal dungeons go faster and easier!

Seriously, I'm at the point of slotting a taunt on my pure DPS and calling her a tank. I still think its poor form but at least I'll taunt.

Or you just hard stack the whole fight.

PaixRomanus

As someone who has played this game for a really long time I get both sides of the argument. During the dungeon event I q'd for normal dungeons as all three roles because I wanted to get in and get out, and when I was on my DPS that is exactly what happened - I don't feel bad, I don't feel regret for doing it, we got in, we got out and moved on with our lives.

However, on my real tank, in real tanking gear, with a real sword and board, and two very real taunts I spent an hour and half in normal Arx Corinium because the "REAL" DPS didn't realize that the first boss healed itself when you stood in it's AOE, or that Sellistrix casted a nasty lightning AOE on the water on the final fight (or stood at the entrance to avoid lightning water, thus resetting the fight entirely) - also let's focus on the snake that casts the shield during the Sliklenia fight instead of the boss. So it's fair to trash talk "fake tanks" but in reality garbage DPS is okay? By all means please just use one snipe ability and continue to light attack with your bow - because you are clearly bringing so much to the table. I'm generalizing not every DPS did this, in fact quite a few DPS during this event with low CP more than pulled their weight.

Point is: The player gap in this game is ridiculous. This is the real issue here, not fake tanks. 4 160CP DD's who have been playing the game for two-months are probably not going to have the same experience as 4 690CP DD's who have been playing for two-years. I get it fake tanks suck, but bad DPS is really not enjoyable either.

VaranisArano

If the issue with taking forever to complete is mechanics, teach the group the mechanics. If a player won't respect a mechanic, such as the first boss in Arx Corinium's heals, to the point that its harming the group (an hour and a half in Arx Corinium is far beyond just low DPS) I'd be more than fine with kick that person.

Before Clockwork City, I've taken low level groups through Fungal Grotto II who did just fine as long as they listened when I explained the mechanic. During the event, I ran a group through Darkshade Caverns II where I was the only one who'd completed it. The groups that listen and respect the mechanics can overcome low DPS in order to complete. Not respecting the mechanics once they know it is a totally different problem.

kringled_1

I've tanked normal Arx with both dps doing primarily bow light attacks from a distance and I think the healer did the most damage of all. It didn't take 90 minutes, sure it wasn't the fastest run but we're talking more like 30 minutes. So 90 minutes is a whole lot of things going very wrong at once.
For the 14-15 randoms I ran as heal/dps (almost all heal) during the event, I ran into one fake tank and by fake I mean no taunt and super squishy. I think that was more massive ignorance than anything else.
I've actually run into a fair amount more dps with OH+S who are using pierce armor. Amazingly the healer who was doing that and getting aggro from the Lava Queen non-stop last night justified it to me as 'it's more dps' which I found funny. (Pierce armor is a fantastic skill, but it is not an effective damage skill in itself).

terrordactyl1971

Had one of these today. Some fool queued as a tank and used a bow the whole time. Couldnt complete Cradle of Shadows as a result

starlizard70ub17_ESO

Olgierd wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Random normal wihtout tank should be ok!

DPS are getting dungeon after an hour and these tanks are actually help getting dps a dungeon!

It shouldn't be ok. It's cheating in line to get faster group. If you want to play dps wiat in lne as a dps no matter what when i enter the dungeon with 4 random people i expect them to be loyal their roles. When i see fake tank/healer i immediately start a vote to kick that cheater.

The problem isn't fake tanks. The problem is fake DPS. Players who lack the skill and abilities showing up in vet dungeons expecting others to carry them.

SupremeRissole

Oh look another fake tank thread from people who cant slot a shield or heal for a random normal and label it as cheating even though it's not cheating. Bait thread I rekon.
*insert flogging dead horse gif*

VaranisArano

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Oh look another fake tank thread from people who cant slot a shield or heal for a random normal and label it as cheating even though it's not cheating. Bait thread I rekon.
*insert flogging dead horse gif*

You DO realize this thread is from the heat of the Random Normal Dungeon event when there were DPS queuing as tanks all over the place and then going "Its just a normal, geez, why are you complaining that I'm not holding aggro?", right?

I mean, I still find it annoying as heck when my healer suddenly has to heal, buff, dps, do mechanics PLUS hold boss aggro because the "tank" can't be bothered to slot a taunt. But during the event, this was a considerably bigger problem as lots of people ran dungeons and lots of people found themselves inconvenienced by "tanks" who refused to slot a taunt to hold aggro.

Flogging a dead horse, sure. Bait thread? No. When this thread was started, it was a concern.

ongeburz

Easy fix:
- Make DLC dungeons lvl 50+ only and make them more difficult!
- Dungeons that are not part of the DLC's should not require any roll
- Vet dungeons ..... stay as they are.

Another suggestion would be:
- Show who queued as what
- Add a rating system to the game at the end of the dungeon you get to rate each player for their roll. When entering a dungeon people can see that rating and kick from the beginning. Good rating = extra reward. (10-15 heavy bags or whatever)

Morvane

taunt check isnt enough if frost staff can taunt too...

VaranisArano

ongeburz wrote: »

Easy fix:
- Make DLC dungeons lvl 50+ only and make them more difficult!
- Dungeons that are not part of the DLC's should not require any roll
- Vet dungeons ..... stay as they are.

Another suggestion would be:
- Show who queued as what
- Add a rating system to the game at the end of the dungeon you get to rate each player for their roll. When entering a dungeon people can see that rating and kick from the beginning. Good rating = extra reward. (10-15 heavy bags or whatever)

So your points are...interesting.
1. normal DLC dungeons are already available at level 45. If someone is a new player, level 50 + 1 CP is not that great a difference from level 45. Also, they are plenty difficult enough. However, they are now much better balanced for th elevel at which new characters can enter them.
2. non-DLC dungeons should not require any role...so you are absolutely confident that every group of random players can get through every normal dungeon at every level without a healer, yes? I mean, I can accept substituting another DPS for a tank - I don't like it, but most inexperienced random groups can survive without a tank. But without a healer? Normal dungeons are available at level 10, unlocking progressively by difficulty. To all random players. Yeah, no role required is going to go swimmingly. Sure. Sure.
3. Sure.
4. All you have to do is pull up your group menu and its pretty easy to tell who queued as what role. Darned easy. That's how I figure out who's my tank and healer...and how I know when my "tank" isn't tanking.
5. Rating. A good system in abstract but greatly prone to abuse and disadvantaging new and inexperienced players. Not that those categories are not the same. I played for over a year before I started tanking in group dungeons.

Integral1900

It’s not unreasonable to require one player to have a taunt and one to have a spam-able heal to help new or inexperienced players. If the boss is taunted and therefore not moving it can cut the kill time in half, nothing is served by the boss wandering around splattering new players

FrancisCrawford

I've been leveling a couple of under-50 healers via Random Normal during the current double XP event. There have been lots of questionable players or groups. Rarely has this been a real problem.

Yesterday my Level 45 templar did ~50% of the DPS for my group plus ~90% of the healing in Fungal Grotto 1. It was still a reasonably fast run.

Basically, I think that 14 of the basic 16 dungeons in this game are so easy that random normal should almost never be a serious problem. The exceptions are Selene's Web and Blackheart Haven, and even those usually go pretty smoothly, perhaps after one or two wipes that remind everybody to take this particular run a little more seriously.

And if I'm random normaled into a more advanced dungeon than those, then I have a good chance of having at least a couple of group members who know what they're doing.

zaria

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I've been leveling a couple of under-50 healers via Random Normal during the current double XP event. There have been lots of questionable players or groups. Rarely has this been a real problem.

Yesterday my Level 45 templar did ~50% of the DPS for my group plus ~90% of the healing in Fungal Grotto 1. It was still a reasonably fast run.

Basically, I think that 14 of the basic 16 dungeons in this game are so easy that random normal should almost never be a serious problem. The exceptions are Selene's Web and Blackheart Haven, and even those usually go pretty smoothly, perhaps after one or two wipes that remind everybody to take this particular run a little more seriously.

And if I'm random normaled into a more advanced dungeon than those, then I have a good chance of having at least a couple of group members who know what they're doing.

I say darkshade 2 is the pug killer of normal basic, however that dungeon is easier without tank as the hard final boss can not be tanked. Fake healer and weak group would be interesting.
During the dungeon event I had 3 failed run out of 50+, ICP cabbage fight and CoH2 second last boss, did not understand mechanic and did not want to discuss it charge straight in after yet another wipe and dps was low. BC2 3rd last boss, fail because of lack of AoE to deal with adds.
Fake tanks was not an issue, an real tank would help in ICP not the other fights.
i say its more an issue that good players uses normals to farm or grind cp so low level ones don't learn even mechanics or an basic one bar rotation.

Warraxx

#FakeTankLivesMatter

Tieberion

And here I just want an AOE taunt.

scrosedk

zyk wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

waaait....people run normal dungeons without 4 DD ??? O_O

waaaait.....people run normal dungeons with other players ??? O_O

Normal Dungeon starts at lvl 10, I don't think a lvl 10 can solo FG1, especially when the said lvl 10 is new to ESO.

BooPerScOOper

karekiz

.

MehrunesFlagon

While a fake tank might work out just fine for normal dungeons, it doesn't work at all in newer dlc dungeons.This practice does unfortunately transfer over to vet.With that in mind something needs to be done about it.

Toon_Raider

the problem is fake tanks are also appearing in vet dailies with no taunt and getting one shot.

Minyassa

Skill checking wouldn't do it, it's too easy for people to simply swap skills around once they're in. One thing that would help with this BS is instead of awarding a random normal reward, awarding a skill competence award for roles. Base xp and loot as for a normal dungeon, extra higher awards and loot for hitting milestone skill numbers such as blocking X amount of damage/holding aggro for X time on tanks, healing X damage for healers, X damage done by dps, etc. Would be more incentive for people to actually play a role if done so it wasn't easier for everyone to hit the dps target without the other roles' help.

WiseSky

Its simple... on Normal Anything Goes ! as long as you finish it.
On Vet you kick the person who cant do the job... Its that simple

nejcn001

I ussualy fake tank normal random dungeons, since i can do 40k+ dps i can practicaly solo it.
If we get a DLC dungeon, i have tank spec ready to switch to.