The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
The real problem with loot boxes
-
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It's impossible to get "addicted" to opening a virtual crate. That's idiotic.You don't seem to understand the concept of addiction ...
And for the people who will argue with me about this .... you're confusing the word "addicted" with words like "obsessed," although I can't really imagine that anyone would get obsessive about opening crates, either.
Edited by SydneyGrey on November 25, 2017 4:51AM1 -
Narvuntien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SydneyGrey wrote: »
Have you met people?.. they are pretty idiotic.
Addiction is related to not having a group of friends and a supportive family. Then you play a game like an MMO and suddenly you have plenty of friends but they all play this game and since they are in a better finacial situation they all buy these loot boxes and get this sweet stuff and you want to fit in so you also buy these things. Before you know it your good feelings about hanging out with your friends are linked in your brain with the loot boxes.. even if all your MMO friends rage quit with morrowind.. you are still here buying loot boxes. Brians don't actually work all that logically they are all held together with duct tape in there.
Keep in mind it is important to know that as gamers, we are in many ways have a susceptability to this kind of gambling. The game itself is a land of RNG and loot boxes.
Sure you have personal responsibility but as we all know with more power comes more responsibility. The game company has the power they have more responsibility to not abuse it.
For now ZoS has not abused it but these paid for loot boxes is the closest they have come to that line. They can make small changes the system to make it more ethical. Including making it clear that they are gambling... or by making the loot boxes more fair with less variance in rewards. E.g every box contains the same amount of gems worth of stuff even if its not the stuff you want. The gambling hook still works but you are paying money for a set reward... gems. This is actually a lot closer to how the in game RNG works.0 -
TheValar85✭✭✭✭✭Well i gues EA will face alot of law sue
because before BF it was calm, not to mention in ESO the crown crates dose not gives any one benifits at all. sure xp scrolls and some riding stuffs are in there but those can be achieved wiouth spending money on them. the rest of crates are just cosmetics, and it is not affecting the player bases in any negativ ways, becasue lets face it if you buy tons of crates and you have lets say 2000k crystals you cant buy skill buffs wich makes you stronger unlike in Battlefornt 2. So i think ESO will be safe, because it is not a pay to win game. Oh and one mor ething Activison was the first who introduced the loot boxes at the first time. sooo blame it on them XD GM Of The Lusty Argonian ERPGM Of THe Alessia Dynasty PVP GuildGM Of The Guardians Of MiddleEarthMy Smiling Emperor Profile Picture: https://ibb.co/bsOM6n1 -
Lylith✭✭✭✭✭
✭SydneyGrey wrote: »
It's impossible to get "addicted" to opening a virtual crate. That's idiotic.You don't seem to understand the concept of addiction ...
And for the people who will argue with me about this .... you're confusing the word "addicted" with words like "obsessed," although I can't really imagine that anyone would get obsessive about opening crates, either.
ever watch an addict play video poker or a slot machine?
7 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@SydneyGrey, in the strictest possible sense, you're correct. You cannot become physiologically dependent on opening boxes (or gambling, for that matter.) However, you can become psychologically addicted to the dopamine release that occurs as a result of provoking a positive stimulus. Your brain tells you, "this is good, we should do more of this." Which, actually, this does work, and can create psychological addiction in people.
Thing is, this mechanism is vital to keeping you functioning. It creates a neurological reward for positive experiences, and does encourage you towards engaging in behavior you find rewarding.
The problem is, this system can be hijacked. It's part of why games will put considerable production value into their loot box openings. ZOS didn't spend the money for voice acting on the Crown Crates on a whim. It's there to reinforce the idea of a positive experience.
Strictly speaking, crown crates could, simply, open, like any other container in the game. All of that theater exists to sell the experience, and promote a positive view of it.
Most people, it might get you to come back again for another round. Some will take their free crown crates, and scamper off with them, waiting for the next handout.
Some people become addicted to the dopamine kick. Again, it's not physiological addiction, but it is psychological. Some users will pour their finances into a system like that, even after it becomes self-destructive.
So, no, people can become addicted to the experience. It does happen.6 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SydneyGrey wrote: »
It's impossible to get "addicted" to opening a virtual crate. That's idiotic.You don't seem to understand the concept of addiction ...
And for the people who will argue with me about this .... you're confusing the word "addicted" with words like "obsessed," although I can't really imagine that anyone would get obsessive about opening crates, either.
No, there are two kinds of addiction.
Physiological, where you become chemically dependent on a substance, and will experience withdrawal symptoms on cessation of use.
Psychological addiction, which includes things like gambling, is where you develop a pathological need to provoke a specific stimulus for the resulting dopamine kick. There's a chemical component, but it's produced internally. (Strictly speaking, this can also occur with endorphins, as I recall. Though that isn't associated with addictive behavior patterns, IIRC.)Edited by starkerealm on November 25, 2017 5:01AM4 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
And did their addiction simply go away by telling them to be "personal responsible" and "just stop being addicted"?Apache_Kid wrote: »
No, the onus was on me to actually take that personal responsibility and work to stop being addicted
Would you like to know the most unfortunate part?
Getting over an addiction does not grant immunity, only insight
Would you like to know the most fortunate part?
Insight helps maintain awareness and preventative measures in future at-risk situations
Given the prevalence of RNG-based content and rewards, ESO on the whole is a terrible place for someone who may deal with gambling addiction
it is important to remember that addiction interferes with daily life
someone who ends up unemployed playing ESO in endless grind is in a worse off state
than someone gainfully employed spending a responsibly calculated quantity on crown crates every month
Any action taken against loot boxes is not going to really deal with any core issue in terms of people suffering from addiction
it will just quiet down the people using 'addiction' as a buzz-word to push an argument against something they do not like
as an individual with OCD, addictive substances and activities are higher risk activities for me than most people
my life is already destroyed by wretched cycles of obsessive thoughts and compulsive habits
separate from affairs of adult addiction, we can discuss the insidious nature of gambling in games geared toward children
but do not make the mistake of overlooking the fact that things like daily crafting writs
are effectively priming people for gambling addiction
by tying RNG-based reward systems to repeatable daily (ie: routine or habit-forming) activities"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
1 -
Balgost✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Some users will pour their finances into a system like that, even after it becomes self-destructive.
So, no, people can become addicted to the experience. It does happen.
You have just described the lottery players that I encounter daily. I work in numerous and different convenience stores on a rotating basis and don't see the same one for 3 months. It is commonplace to have 2-4 lottery players in nearly every store I'm in. They throw money at the cashier even though they look like they don't have two nickels to rub together. I'm talking $20, 50 100+ a day. The vast majority are not happy to win some back. They just keep buying tickets with the winnings until there is no more money left to spend...that day. The cashiers tell me they'll be back tomorrow.
"self-destructive" is an excellent way to put it, but that only scratches the surface. I purposely avoid the lottery for fear of this exact scenario. My addictive personality would take over in a heartbeat. I can only imagine if this mentality is adhered to in an online game. Players sit behind a monitor and don't even have to face the initial embarrassment with anyone in RL. Then they are in a groove and there's no stopping it.
If you've (anyone reading this) never been inclined to do the things above, good for you. Just know that there are plenty that can be and do.
Edited by Balgost on November 25, 2017 9:22AM2 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Yes, and I agree, now the game will probably sell well, its Star Wars and outside of the progression system its good as I understand. No it would not sell as well as if progression was done decently but still well.https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/15/star-wars-battlefront-2s-loot-boxes-feel-like-a-fork-in-the-road-for-video-games/#7481e5b46e75
One more for you to read to better understand the situation
On the other hand game will probably not last long, its tainted and non hip, it also have its very grindy progression system.
By the time EA patches in the loot crates again the train will have past.
Now that message this will send to EA is unclear, it look like they don't take subtle messages well.
It will however send an think very careful before you do something like this to the rest of the industry.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
No but they could force an +18 year sticker on them, and yes this would not be enforced by ESRB but by law and stronger agencies. Gambling for kids are pretty universal illegal.nolangrady wrote: »
Sure do. So the government needs to step in and take control of video games because a small minority of players are addicted to opening virtual boxes?
And yes this would be for cosmetic like crown crates too, as ESO is 17+ it would not have much impact but it would hit games like overwatch harder.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
JD2013✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
http://www.pcgamer.com/uk-gambling-commission-restates-that-loot-boxes-are-not-gambling/
Tl;dr - Because the items you win are limited for use solely within the game itself it doesn't meet the legal oversight of gambling. However protecting kids/people from the "gambling" activity is something to look at.
Sweetrolls for all!
Christophe Mottierre - Breton Templar with his own whole darn estate! Templar Houses are so 2015. EU DC
PC Beta Tester January 2014
Elder of The Black
Order of Sithis
The Runners
@TamrielTraverse - For Tamriel related Twitter shenanigans!
https://tamrieltraveller.wordpress.com/
Crafting bag OP! ZOS nerf pls!1 -
Slick_007✭✭✭✭✭
✭
As recovery drug addict and alcoholic I think I do
so because you have an issue everyone else should be banned from participating, instead of you removing yourself from the situation, or controlling yourself.
you like to play the game. so do we. we like loot crates. why should we miss out? we don't have an issue with them. Im sorry if this sounds harsh. but its true. your illness is now affecting what we can and cant do. and that isnt fair on us.2 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
As recovery drug addict and alcoholic I think I do
so because you have an issue everyone else should be banned from participating, instead of you removing yourself from the situation, or controlling yourself.
you like to play the game. so do we. we like loot crates. why should we miss out? we don't have an issue with them. Im sorry if this sounds harsh. but its true. your illness is now affecting what we can and cant do. and that isnt fair on us.
Harsh and untrue. You are taking statements out of context.1 -
SugaComa✭✭✭✭✭
As recovery drug addict and alcoholic I think I do
so because you have an issue everyone else should be banned from participating, instead of you removing yourself from the situation, or controlling yourself.
you like to play the game. so do we. we like loot crates. why should we miss out? we don't have an issue with them. Im sorry if this sounds harsh. but its true. your illness is now affecting what we can and cant do. and that isnt fair on us.
No
What I'm saying is loot crates are fine when implemented correctly, they are not fine when they become part of the progression system and you can only continue to play the game by purchasing loot boxes to have a chance at getting something that will enable you to move on in the game which is what ea has done with need for speed but everyone is focusing on the wrong issue here using gambling addiction and kids as excuses to ban them
I'm all for loot boxes as a way to pay for content with in the game it benefits me as a gamer
But not when I'm forced to buy them in order to move forward with the game
Please read the links I provided in my op and second post1 -
supaskrub✭✭✭✭✭day after day after day. more bloody posts about loot boxes cluttering up the forums. Most of them saying the same thing over and over and over again... ffs use some common sense and just add to an existing post rather than creating another one that gets filled with the same old ***!3 -
INHUMANENATION✭✭✭Cosmetic items are a luxury. Non-sequitur arguments aside you don't lose anything in game if you don't wish to buy them.
One can only hope the move by Belgium works towards bringing gaming companies under some form of regulatory oversight. As it stands now they do not have to respect the laws of the nations they are played in. Which I personally feel is because non-gamers don't appreciate how bad things have gotten.0 -
Rawkan✭✭✭✭✭day after day after day. more bloody posts about loot boxes cluttering up the forums. Most of them saying the same thing over and over and over again... ffs use some common sense and just add to an existing post rather than creating another one that gets filled with the same old ***!
Good post. Some people apparently lack any self control and blame the loot boxes for "stealing" their money.0 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nolangrady wrote: »
You don't seem to understand the concept of addiction ...As for the gambling and saving the children thing ... Well you should be doing that as individuals with in your own environment not relying on governments to put one more thing in place to absolve you of the responsibility of your own actions or inactions as an individual or a parent
You probably don't understand the concept of personal responsibility.
Oh god. If I hear this one more time. Anyone who says this clearly has NEVER had a serious addiction, nor have they known someone that does. While it is possible to get it under control, it is much more difficult when presented with that problem on a daily basis. When ESO was created, there were no loot boxes, so if someone DID have a gambling problem for example, it wasnt an issue. THEN came the scam crates, and they are literally shoved in your face the SECOND you log in every single day. This is like if you were addicted to meth, and you went to the gym to get away from things and you had someone dangle meth bags in your face the second you get there every day. Stop using this personal responsibility nonsense excuse when we all see through it, because you know as well as I do, when people try to take personal responsiblity in ways YOU DONT AGREE WITH , you guys scream for the government to step in and stop them. Just stop. It makes you look empathy impaired and dense.1 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nolangrady wrote: »
Sure do. So the government needs to step in and take control of video games because a small minority of players are addicted to opening virtual boxes?
clearly you dont understand how gambling addiction works then. It is an adrenaline addiction , you get addicted to the hormones released when you are on a roll, you get a high from that. It isnt an addiction to any one type of gambling. And once again, the argument that you dont want your choices taken away is just nonsense. Without loot boxes your amount of crown store choices would be INCREASED. Crown crates restrict your ability to choose your product, which is the exact opposite of freedom of choice.0 -
Dread_Viking✭✭✭✭ADDING PAY TO WIN CRATES TO 60$ GAMES IS WRONG AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS EXPECTED OF A FREE TO PLAY GAME / FREE GAMES NOT A GAME YOU PAY 60$ FOR AND IN THE CASE OF STARWARS BF2 IT HAS BEEN COAGULATED TO MORE THEN 2000$ TO GET ALL ITEMS IN GAME THAT IS MORE THEN HEY WE THING GAMES SHOULD COST 820 OR 120 $ TO PAY FOR THE DEVELOPMENT. ADDING SKINS IS FINE AND OTHER COSMETICS FOR A PREMIUM CURRENCY LIKE CROWNS IS OK BY ME BUT ADDING THEM TO A GAMBLING MODEL IS WRONG IN SO MEANY WAYS AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL SINCE THEIR IS NO WAY TO CONTROL IF THE PERSON WHO IS USING THE CRATE IS 18+.SO YES I AM ALSO AGINGS CROWN CRATES SINCE IT IS A FORM OF GAMBLING AND IF ZOS WANT US TO BUY THE ITEMS FROM THE CRATES THY SHOUL ADD THEM TO THE STORE AND NOT A CRATE
Sry 4 capsDon't worry girl I'm a Sorcerer, i got my Hardened Ward for protection4 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dread_Viking wrote: »ADDING PAY TO WIN CRATES TO 60$ GAMES IS WRONG AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS EXPECTED OF A FREE TO PLAY GAME / FREE GAMES NOT A GAME YOU PAY 60$ FOR AND IN THE CASE OF STARWARS BF2 IT HAS BEEN COAGULATED TO MORE THEN 2000$ TO GET ALL ITEMS IN GAME THAT IS MORE THEN HEY WE THING GAMES SHOULD COST 820 OR 120 $ TO PAY FOR THE DEVELOPMENT. ADDING SKINS IS FINE AND OTHER COSMETICS FOR A PREMIUM CURRENCY LIKE CROWNS IS OK BY ME BUT ADDING THEM TO A GAMBLING MODEL IS WRONG IN SO MEANY WAYS AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL SINCE THEIR IS NO WAY TO CONTROL IF THE PERSON WHO IS USING THE CRATE IS 18+.SO YES I AM ALSO AGINGS CROWN CRATES SINCE IT IS A FORM OF GAMBLING AND IF ZOS WANT US TO BUY THE ITEMS FROM THE CRATES THY SHOUL ADD THEM TO THE STORE AND NOT A CRATE
Sry 4 caps
Honestly I find caps extremely appropriate here. This kind of practice has been going on long enough. Hell, if I had the money and sway I would have personally got the ball rolling.0 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Narvuntien wrote: »SydneyGrey wrote: »
Addiction is related to not having a group of friends and a supportive family.
I don't mean to nitpick, but there's a lot more to it than that. Some people have a genetic predisposition to addiction; having supportive friends and family is less of a protective factor in those cases.
0 -
Balamoor✭✭✭✭✭
✭nolangrady wrote: »
You don't seem to understand the concept of addiction ...As for the gambling and saving the children thing ... Well you should be doing that as individuals with in your own environment not relying on governments to put one more thing in place to absolve you of the responsibility of your own actions or inactions as an individual or a parent
You probably don't understand the concept of personal responsibility.
Oh god. If I hear this one more time. Anyone who says this clearly has NEVER had a serious addiction, nor have they known someone that does. While it is possible to get it under control, it is much more difficult when presented with that problem on a daily basis. When ESO was created, there were no loot boxes, so if someone DID have a gambling problem for example, it wasnt an issue. THEN came the scam crates, and they are literally shoved in your face the SECOND you log in every single day. This is like if you were addicted to meth, and you went to the gym to get away from things and you had someone dangle meth bags in your face the second you get there every day. Stop using this personal responsibility nonsense excuse when we all see through it, because you know as well as I do, when people try to take personal responsiblity in ways YOU DONT AGREE WITH , you guys scream for the government to step in and stop them. Just stop. It makes you look empathy impaired and dense.
Other peoples addictions are no one elses fault but the person addicted, any recovery program teaches you personal responsibility
Also.....heading to the sub forum in 3....2.....Edited by Balamoor on November 26, 2017 3:28PM0 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Naw, governments should definitely be stepping in to prevent predatory practices that exploit common psychological phenomenon. Personal responsibility is a spook and we're all susceptible to behavioral modification based on the right series of inputs. The only reason some people can exercise what is perceived to be "personal responsibility" is because they lucked out and got the right inputs to act as protective factors against specific types of exploitation.
So I guess the answer is to medicate everyone to the point of zombism and further take away choices and options so as to not ever allow them to make choices again? What's interesting is that 'addictions' weren't that much of a problem in history, sure you had alcoholism, but nothing on the scale we're seeing today. Why? Because in the past they were raised in a society where a person's choices MATTERED, that people were judged on their decisions, they were held accountable... today, there is no longer any type of accountability because nobody is every held accountable for their choices or actions. I certainly didn't "luck out" that I was raised by parents who taught me to think about things before making a decision, who taught me to take responsibility for my choices, that wasn't "luck" that was being raised in a society at a time where personal responsibility still mattered.CP: 1950 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ Magicka Sorcerer ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****0 -
SugaComa✭✭✭✭✭Basically, control yourselves, don't get the government to do it for you. ZOSs crates are either cosmetic or "utility" AKA trash easier found in game. Nothing wrong with them.
True ... But I started this post to point how EA have now tied in game progression into loot boxes, and how the slippery slope has now begun and as gamers we should ensure loot boxes remain in essence nothing more than optional add on for cosmetic or minor character utilities and not a hidden subscription to enable continued game play0 -
SisterGoat✭✭✭✭✭Belgium never banned STBF loot crates, it was a mistranslation from Google-translator that an article got wrong. They are still investigating it. HOWEVER, Victoria AU are deciding to ban them. Legislators need to decide what constitutes as gambling when it comes to these loot crates. EA had to temporarily disable micro-transactions because Disney was concerned about their image having a game that could promote gambling to minors.Jumps-In-Water - Magicka Templar
Dar'akar - Stamina Nightblade
Jumps-In-Lava - Magicka Dragon Knight
PC/NA2 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Way to screw up a perfectly valid point (loot boxes as P2W progression which is THE issue from a gamer's perspective) with some off the wall wacko comment about personal and parental responsibility.
Regulations and laws are not about absolving anyone of anything, They are about having an understanding that sometimes for some things personal and parental responsibility are not enough.Edited by Iselin on November 26, 2017 5:19PM0
This discussion has been closed.