The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
The real problem with loot boxes
SugaComa
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I'm seeing lots of posts about loot boxes, most people are missing the whole thing
Government are jumping on a band wagon, gamers have used the wrong words and analogies to complain about what is happening ...
So here it is in short
Some games coming out are actively create the progression system on paid for loot boxes
SWBF was the most prominent one as it's links to Disney as a children's entertainment business has made the formula for this progression system front and center of the media ... But need for speed is also doing something similar
Soon gamers will have to buy a game and invest in a randomised loot box experience to build and modify and progress through a game instead of simply playing it at their own leisure, if you want to race ahead you will have to pay for the privilege to "gamble" on a chance to progress or wait X amount of time before continuing
It's the mobile gaming model breaking into AAA titles
Please read this article and understand what it is real gamers are fighting against when it comes to loot boxes ...
As for the gambling and saving the children thing ... Well you should be doing that as individuals with in your own environment not relying on governments to put one more thing in place to absolve you of the responsibility of your own actions or inactions as an individual or a parent
https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/14/activision-is-doing-loot-boxes-right-ea-is-doing-them-horribly-wrong/#6669ad23b247
Government are jumping on a band wagon, gamers have used the wrong words and analogies to complain about what is happening ...
So here it is in short
Some games coming out are actively create the progression system on paid for loot boxes
SWBF was the most prominent one as it's links to Disney as a children's entertainment business has made the formula for this progression system front and center of the media ... But need for speed is also doing something similar
Soon gamers will have to buy a game and invest in a randomised loot box experience to build and modify and progress through a game instead of simply playing it at their own leisure, if you want to race ahead you will have to pay for the privilege to "gamble" on a chance to progress or wait X amount of time before continuing
It's the mobile gaming model breaking into AAA titles
Please read this article and understand what it is real gamers are fighting against when it comes to loot boxes ...
As for the gambling and saving the children thing ... Well you should be doing that as individuals with in your own environment not relying on governments to put one more thing in place to absolve you of the responsibility of your own actions or inactions as an individual or a parent
https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/14/activision-is-doing-loot-boxes-right-ea-is-doing-them-horribly-wrong/#6669ad23b247
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SugaComa✭✭✭✭✭https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/15/star-wars-battlefront-2s-loot-boxes-feel-like-a-fork-in-the-road-for-video-games/#7481e5b46e75
One more for you to read to better understand the situation4 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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You don't seem to understand the concept of addiction ...As for the gambling and saving the children thing ... Well you should be doing that as individuals with in your own environment not relying on governments to put one more thing in place to absolve you of the responsibility of your own actions or inactions as an individual or a parent
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nolangrady✭✭✭
You don't seem to understand the concept of addiction ...As for the gambling and saving the children thing ... Well you should be doing that as individuals with in your own environment not relying on governments to put one more thing in place to absolve you of the responsibility of your own actions or inactions as an individual or a parent
You probably don't understand the concept of personal responsibility.Edited by nolangrady on November 24, 2017 6:11PM14 -
Wrubius_Coronaria✭✭✭✭✭Nothing new there, and still the same and poor argument, "personal responsability"...
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There have been posts about the loot boxes ever since ZOS started them. The loot box thread are coming out again because of the recent ruling.
Loot boxes are great for companies. Because of this, companies will keep using them.
Loot boxes suck for consumers. Because of this, consumers will keep complaining.
Gambling is something the government controls because the government A. have a vested interest in its own income from gambling and B. a vested interest in making sure its citizens aren't getting scammed by other interests.
There you go.3 -
wayfarerx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nolangrady wrote: »
You don't seem to understand the concept of addiction ...As for the gambling and saving the children thing ... Well you should be doing that as individuals with in your own environment not relying on governments to put one more thing in place to absolve you of the responsibility of your own actions or inactions as an individual or a parent
You probably don't understand the concept of personal responsibility.
Also a bad take.@wayfarerx - PC / North America / Aldmeri Dominion5 -
DMuehlhausen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nothing new there, and still the same and poor argument, "personal responsability"...
You see though it's not a bad argument. it's the best argument..nobody is making anybody play the game. If they aren't being made to play the game nobody is making them buy the loot crates. So it is all personal responsibility. None of the crate items give you an advantage, at least not in ESO. That was the problem with them in SWBF 2. They were tied to progression which they never should be.
If you can't control yourself from buying the items then you shouldn't be playing the game. People that know they have problems with Alcohol and don't want it controlling their lives anymore choose not to drink, or enter the bar. They have become personally responsible. The issue in today's world is nobody wants to take that personal responsibility and will blame outside forces to get something.10 -
mikecrci✭✭✭The REAL problem with loot boxes:
It ruins the game’s immersion. Simple as that.
They would be fine in a game that was called, say, Las Vegas High Rollers! Online.
But keep that crap out of role playing games. Glad to see them banned.5 -
nolangrady✭✭✭
Sure do. So the government needs to step in and take control of video games because a small minority of players are addicted to opening virtual boxes?1 -
nolangrady✭✭✭nolangrady wrote: »
You don't seem to understand the concept of addiction ...As for the gambling and saving the children thing ... Well you should be doing that as individuals with in your own environment not relying on governments to put one more thing in place to absolve you of the responsibility of your own actions or inactions as an individual or a parent
You probably don't understand the concept of personal responsibility.
Also a bad take.
What is your take?0 -
T4T2FR34K✭✭✭✭✭nolangrady wrote: »You probably don't understand the concept of personal responsibility.
There is no PROBABLY to it...you don't understand how the brain works or the psychology behind the way things are done and finally WHY things are done the way they are...4 -
Hanokihs✭✭✭✭✭DMuehlhausen wrote: »Nothing new there, and still the same and poor argument, "personal responsability"...
You see though it's not a bad argument. it's the best argument..nobody is making anybody play the game. If they aren't being made to play the game nobody is making them buy the loot crates. So it is all personal responsibility. None of the crate items give you an advantage, at least not in ESO. That was the problem with them in SWBF 2. They were tied to progression which they never should be.
If you can't control yourself from buying the items then you shouldn't be playing the game. People that know they have problems with Alcohol and don't want it controlling their lives anymore choose not to drink, or enter the bar. They have become personally responsible. The issue in today's world is nobody wants to take that personal responsibility and will blame outside forces to get something.
I agree and disagree. People CAN control themselves, and many who play do just that... But it doesn't mean they can't (or are for some reason not allowed to) bring the salt and vinegar about it. Ironically, the biggest problem with loot box systems like the one in ESO is that people want to buy what's in them. Unfortunately, these same people often feel as if the things they want are, in some way, being unfairly held out of reach - and not everyone is willing to shrug and pony up the dough despite it.
Just the same, tying them to game progression is a stupid move, and it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that the practice got slapped down."I haven't really played much yet, but lemme tell you all about how the game should include X and be a lot more like Y!" - Half the posters on this forum."I've been here for years, and lemme tell you all about how they should never change or evolve Z, because then the game would be ruined forever." - The other half of posters on this forum.2 -
Sheezabeast✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Its my fault if I overspend on crates. Its my fault if I buy too many. I don't need a governmental body to overextend its reach and involve itself.Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!7 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Naw, governments should definitely be stepping in to prevent predatory practices that exploit common psychological phenomenon. Personal responsibility is a spook and we're all susceptible to behavioral modification based on the right series of inputs. The only reason some people can exercise what is perceived to be "personal responsibility" is because they lucked out and got the right inputs to act as protective factors against specific types of exploitation.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster11 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I don't need to read the article or understand it. (while I probably have read this or a similar article). The reality is that I'll play games while they're fun but I've been looking sideways at the industries for years. They are losing their artistic soul and spirit of fun. It is being replaced with one armed bandits of greed. I don't think they realize that the enjoyment will be lost in gaming if we have to keep chucking coins in the till to play. This isn't arcades. At any regard arcades were more about the player vs. player experience and if you were good enough you could keep playing for hours on one quarter. Additionally, people had their own ataris and commodores and the like. Back to the original topic at hand: I think the industry as a whole is testing how toxic they can be without upsetting the customer. They're dangerously close with a lot of us. The reality is they don't mind pushing some of us out if they can hold onto a few addicts. I'm not speaking of our game here, I'm talking about the industry as a whole. They're testing the waters like a Velociraptor tests the electric fence.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>4 -
Vanthras79✭✭✭✭✭I just wish more cosmetics were obtainable in game rather than assetts getting poured into the crates, where time and effort could be used to fixing the outstanding technical issues and further improving the game. I may buy stuff from the store, but I refuse to gamble with the crates.Edited by Vanthras79 on November 24, 2017 7:03PMNorion Germain - Telvanni Wizard, Covenant Battle Mage, Mage's Guild Magister, Resident of Daggerfall Overlook, Lord of Tel Galen, Psijic Monk, Antiquarian, Breton Scholar, and Traveler.0 -
wayfarerx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nolangrady wrote: »nolangrady wrote: »
You don't seem to understand the concept of addiction ...As for the gambling and saving the children thing ... Well you should be doing that as individuals with in your own environment not relying on governments to put one more thing in place to absolve you of the responsibility of your own actions or inactions as an individual or a parent
You probably don't understand the concept of personal responsibility.
Also a bad take.
What is your take?
That scamboxes are bad for gameplay reasons, that compulsive disorders (like gambling addictions) are a mental health issue and that exploiting such disabilities is unethical.@wayfarerx - PC / North America / Aldmeri Dominion11 -
T4T2FR34K✭✭✭✭✭Naw, governments should definitely be stepping in to prevent predatory practices that exploit common psychological phenomenon. Personal responsibility is a spook and we're all susceptible to behavioral modification based on the right series of inputs. The only reason some people can exercise what is perceived to be "personal responsibility" is because they lucked out and got the right inputs to act as protective factors against specific types of exploitation.That scamboxes are bad for gameplay reasons, that compulsive disorders (like gambling addictions) are a mental health issue and that exploiting such disabilities is unethical.
One thing addicts don't like is the truth...keep it coming, wish someone had stopped me years ago.0 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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And did their addiction simply go away by telling them to be "personal responsible" and "just stop being addicted"?Apache_Kid wrote: »
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Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
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And did their addiction simply go away by telling them to be "personal responsible" and "just stop being addicted"?Apache_Kid wrote: »
No but personal responsibility played a big part. I'd argue it plays the biggest part in the cure.7 -
jaschacasadiob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭What you discovered is referred to as a pay wall in the industry. And of course, it's there since years. Because it works.
This works on multiple levels on the person. On the one hand they make you customize to the limit your character, creating a bond with it. On the other hand, well, nobody forces you to pay anything, but if you do you could continue rightnow. Come on, you almost did it, it was just unlucky! And there is a specia offer just for you!
Most of these purchases are impulse purchases. This happens for what stated above. The game plays with with your feelings. You need to purchase. There are books about this. You could read a couple."Yesterday while searching a barrel in vVoM I found a lemon. Best drop of the whole run."
Protect the weak. Heal the sick.
Treasure the gifts of friendship. Seek joy and inspiration in the mysteries of love.
Honor the Earth, its creatures, and the spirits. Use Nature's gifts wisely. Respect her power. Fear her fury.0 -
SugaComa✭✭✭✭✭
You don't seem to understand the concept of addiction ...As for the gambling and saving the children thing ... Well you should be doing that as individuals with in your own environment not relying on governments to put one more thing in place to absolve you of the responsibility of your own actions or inactions as an individual or a parent
As recovery drug addict and alcoholic I think I do4 -
SugaComa✭✭✭✭✭The main issue with how loot boxes are being handled by EA and if they're successful others will follow suite is that unlocking and maxing every Star Card in Battlefront 2 requires either 4,528 hours of gameplay or $2,100 worth of loot box purchases
That's 3 years of game play at 4 hours every day or rediculous amount of moolah
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nolangrady wrote: »
You don't seem to understand the concept of addiction ...As for the gambling and saving the children thing ... Well you should be doing that as individuals with in your own environment not relying on governments to put one more thing in place to absolve you of the responsibility of your own actions or inactions as an individual or a parent
You probably don't understand the concept of personal responsibility.
I'm not entirely certain you understand the concept of games that tie progression into microtransactions.
For example, BF2. If you don't spend money, you are choosing to place yourself at a distinct, statistical, disadvantage that can easily exceed any actual player skill. It's not simply about addiction, it's about creating a game that will push the player towards spending more money, via psychology engineered to exploit a sunk cost fallacy in the player.
Put another way, it's a game where, if you lose, your suspicion is that it will be due to a power imbalance, and that you could rectify that by spending cash.
Hell, Activision patented some very scummy tactics recently, where they would deliberately match players who had not engaged in microtransactions against players who had, specifically to encourage players to throw more money at the screen, and to reward them for doing so.
This is way beyond, "personal responsibility," and lands solidly in social engineering designed to subvert your ability to make informed purchasing decisions.
So, no, it's not, "personal responsibility," it's that the game is rigged to push you towards the store.
Now, that is BF2, not ESO. Games where the boxes are, legitimately, cosmetic only aren't at fault here. However, this goes way beyond a reductive, "yeah, well, I don't have a problem, so you should suck it up," dismissal.5 -
SugaComa✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »nolangrady wrote: »
You don't seem to understand the concept of addiction ...As for the gambling and saving the children thing ... Well you should be doing that as individuals with in your own environment not relying on governments to put one more thing in place to absolve you of the responsibility of your own actions or inactions as an individual or a parent
You probably don't understand the concept of personal responsibility.
I'm not entirely certain you understand the concept of games that tie progression into microtransactions.
For example, BF2. If you don't spend money, you are choosing to place yourself at a distinct, statistical, disadvantage that can easily exceed any actual player skill. It's not simply about addiction, it's about creating a game that will push the player towards spending more money, via psychology engineered to exploit a sunk cost fallacy in the player.
Put another way, it's a game where, if you lose, your suspicion is that it will be due to a power imbalance, and that you could rectify that by spending cash.
Hell, Activision patented some very scummy tactics recently, where they would deliberately match players who had not engaged in microtransactions against players who had, specifically to encourage players to throw more money at the screen, and to reward them for doing so.
This is way beyond, "personal responsibility," and lands solidly in social engineering designed to subvert your ability to make informed purchasing decisions.
So, no, it's not, "personal responsibility," it's that the game is rigged to push you towards the store.
Now, that is BF2, not ESO. Games where the boxes are, legitimately, cosmetic only aren't at fault here. However, this goes way beyond a reductive, "yeah, well, I don't have a problem, so you should suck it up," dismissal.
Finally some one else gets it ... Thank you2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The main issue with how loot boxes are being handled by EA and if they're successful others will follow suite is that unlocking and maxing every Star Card in Battlefront 2 requires either 4,528 hours of gameplay or $2,100 worth of loot box purchases
That's 3 years of game play at 4 hours every day or rediculous amount of moolah
Technically, more than that. As I recall, there's actually a hard cap on the amount of credits you can earn each day. Exceeding it will result in a 24 hour lockout. You can hit that threshold in less than four hours of play. (I think the numbers I've seen said as little as an hour and a half.) So, that, "3 years," thing may be far too fast.
That said, I'm not sure on the exact specifics of those lockouts. But, EA has its finger on the scale hard for BF2.2
This discussion has been closed.