[Video] Templar vs Warden Healer + Warden Healer Build (28 Nov)

KamoChameleon

Here is a video I a made comparing Templar and Warden Healers. It is a general overview describing some of their most pointed differences, obviously to fit it in 10 mins I've had to leave a lot out. Now I am a PVP'er and so come from that perspective, but would love to hear PVE'rs thoughts on the matter. When I played my tank I often got some really good advice and ideas from watching or reading around what PVE'rs do/did. My understanding is that Wardens find it hard to find groups in PVE which surprises me. So would love feedback.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojiuqTvpYaA&t=561s

I have subsequently made a build video. Here is the build I was using for the above video. Again I would really love the feedback from both PVE and PVP communities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3CPweyq3Ws

PawPrints

Thank you for this video, KamoChameleon I found it to be very interesting and helpful. I wish I could offer some insight in return but I'm still trying to build my Warden to be an optimal healer and what to put onto the bars because, although the healing aspect seems to work, the character itself is quite squishy and seems to be the first to die in any PVE group scenario.

Nevertheless, I enjoy the Warden healer and have found a comfort zone with it. Your vid has made me feel more confident in my choice

WuffyCerulei

Unfortunately, warden healers in pve just don't have the best heals. I actually asked my friend from Mechanically Challenged about this the othe day, and she pretty said what you said about Breathe of Life. It's a biggest life-saving heal for pve. There are so many times in pve where the tank and dps aren't stacked or are extremely mobile, so bubbling seeds wouldn't be the best. However, in dungeons, a warden healer could do fine. It's really trials that demand more of those sudden life-saving heals of BoL.

exeeter702

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Unfortunately, warden healers in pve just don't have the best heals. I actually asked my friend from Mechanically Challenged about this the othe day, and she pretty said what you said about Breathe of Life. It's a biggest life-saving heal for pve. There are so many times in pve where the tank and dps aren't stacked or are extremely mobile, so bubbling seeds wouldn't be the best. However, in dungeons, a warden healer could do fine. It's really trials that demand more of those sudden life-saving heals of BoL.

If i can main heal vet trials on a NB healer, than you are simply playing with sub par warden healers. Bol being a bamd aid for weaker groups is another discussion entirely.

KamoChameleon

PawPrints wrote: »

Thank you for this video, KamoChameleon I found it to be very interesting and helpful. I wish I could offer some insight in return but I'm still trying to build my Warden to be an optimal healer and what to put onto the bars because, although the healing aspect seems to work, the character itself is quite squishy and seems to be the first to die in any PVE group scenario.

Nevertheless, I enjoy the Warden healer and have found a comfort zone with it. Your vid has made me feel more confident in my choice

Squishy!!! Wow in PvP they are so tanky. What is it in pve that makes them so squishy?

KamoChameleon

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Unfortunately, warden healers in pve just don't have the best heals. I actually asked my friend from Mechanically Challenged about this the othe day, and she pretty said what you said about Breathe of Life. It's a biggest life-saving heal for pve. There are so many times in pve where the tank and dps aren't stacked or are extremely mobile, so bubbling seeds wouldn't be the best. However, in dungeons, a warden healer could do fine. It's really trials that demand more of those sudden life-saving heals of BoL.

What if the warden use the healing protection bubble/vines which would buy it enough time to get a heal off?

Skwor

Honestly if you make the warden heals as good as a templar then there is no point in even having a templar class.

WuffyCerulei

exeeter702 wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Unfortunately, warden healers in pve just don't have the best heals. I actually asked my friend from Mechanically Challenged about this the othe day, and she pretty said what you said about Breathe of Life. It's a biggest life-saving heal for pve. There are so many times in pve where the tank and dps aren't stacked or are extremely mobile, so bubbling seeds wouldn't be the best. However, in dungeons, a warden healer could do fine. It's really trials that demand more of those sudden life-saving heals of BoL.

If i can main heal vet trials on a NB healer, than you are simply playing with sub par warden healers. Bol being a bamd aid for weaker groups is another discussion entirely.

@Mapurr would disagree

exeeter702

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Unfortunately, warden healers in pve just don't have the best heals. I actually asked my friend from Mechanically Challenged about this the othe day, and she pretty said what you said about Breathe of Life. It's a biggest life-saving heal for pve. There are so many times in pve where the tank and dps aren't stacked or are extremely mobile, so bubbling seeds wouldn't be the best. However, in dungeons, a warden healer could do fine. It's really trials that demand more of those sudden life-saving heals of BoL.

If i can main heal vet trials on a NB healer, than you are simply playing with sub par warden healers. Bol being a bamd aid for weaker groups is another discussion entirely.

@Mapurr would disagree

And?

exeeter702

Skwor wrote: »

Honestly if you make the warden heals as good as a templar then there is no point in even having a templar class.

Wtf? So if templar isnt healing, it doesnt belong in the game? You do understand templar is not the INTENDED by design exclusive healer of elder scrolls online right?

You are confused.

MinarasLaure

Pure healing?
A sorc can do better thanks to the matriarch.
But healers are supposed to buff the group as well, which is where sorcs fail.
Still, a "oh shi*" skill is all a warden needs to be as competitive as templars

KamoChameleon

I don't think anyone can beat Breath of Life though. It's a 360 deg range at 30m. yes it's not supposed to be that but it is that. No healer can do that so when it comes to clutch healing the Templar wins hands down. So there will always be need for a Templar. I think that Warden and Templar have their own strengths.

PawPrints

KamoChameleon wrote: »

PawPrints wrote: »

Squishy!!! Wow in PvP they are so tanky. What is it in pve that makes them so squishy?

Haha, probably just the way I've spec'd Recently hit level 50, so now CP 193, all points have gone into Magicka which is probably part of it. I've gone for five pieces of light armour, Julianos crafte with Divines trait, with Light Armour Focus from Champion skills. Two pieces of heavy armour in Seducer. Enchantments are mostly Magicka enhancing, with the two heavy pieces being health enchanted. I use provisioning to increase max health before the start of a battle, and buff with the frost cloak from Winter's Embrace.

Yet even yesterday I was playing Siren's Song in Vvardenfell with a DPS player of CP 600 and two lower level players of about level 20, and I kept them buffed and alive but was just getting smashed by the Siren's ability. Probably my lack-of skills rather than anything wrong with the Warden

I played mostly single player story PVE up until recently, my forays into group dungeons and enjoying the healer role came quite late, so that maybe explains my gear choices. Not sure.

TheNuminous1

exeeter702 wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Unfortunately, warden healers in pve just don't have the best heals. I actually asked my friend from Mechanically Challenged about this the othe day, and she pretty said what you said about Breathe of Life. It's a biggest life-saving heal for pve. There are so many times in pve where the tank and dps aren't stacked or are extremely mobile, so bubbling seeds wouldn't be the best. However, in dungeons, a warden healer could do fine. It's really trials that demand more of those sudden life-saving heals of BoL.

If i can main heal vet trials on a NB healer, than you are simply playing with sub par warden healers. Bol being a bamd aid for weaker groups is another discussion entirely.

fully agree

esp1992

I knew I had a GREAT feeling about the Warden!
Kyne be praised!

Tryxus

Thank you so much for taking the time to make and post this video.

I've been maining a Warden healer (both PvP and PvE) ever since Morrowind, but this is my first heal character. So this video really helped me explain the differences between my healer and a class I've never played. Really appreciated

Jaimeh

This was a very interesting video, thank you for putting all that information together. I have played a Templar healer for a year and I recently started to play as warden healer as well. In the beginning I didn’t like the playstyle at all, but the more I play, the more I’m starting to like the class. I agree that there is a difference in styles; templar healing is more reactive, whereas warden healing is more anticipatory. When on my templar, I lay down HOTs, and then use BoL for burst healing, when there is sudden incoming damage, whereas on my warden, I buff the group with frost cloak (and combat prayer), because I don’t have a reliable burst heal available. Enchanted growth is great (also because of the regen buff), but it’s directional, and I find that no matter how well I position myself, not all group members always receive the heal/buff. Corrupted pollen is also nice, but as you mentioned, the need to double click to make it instant, and also the fact that people might step out of it at any moment, makes it a bit unreliable for me as well. Therefore, what I do is try to always buff the other group members with major/minor ward, and cast healing ward just before instances where I know there’s going to be a lot of incoming damage, while having pollen on the ground. The other thing I’m worried about is whether group members are getting enough resources back, so I cast bubbles like there’s no tomorrow, and magicka permitting, I also recast enchanted growth on cool down. I’m still very much learning the class, and try to get away from playing my warden as my templar, but I think the two classes can be very complementary, and would make a good team in a trial setting.

KamoChameleon

Jaimeh wrote: »

I’m still very much learning the class, and try to get away from playing my warden as my templar, but I think the two classes can be very complementary, and would make a good team in a trial setting.

I totally agree there are things the Templar does, as you mentioned, that the Warden just can't do and vice versa. They are both important and all I tried to do in the video is highlight some of the advantages of each.

Gulnagel

Isn't the test with the other templar healer a bit off?

When you cast budding seeds you have to click again for it to activate. But it is only the first cast that cost magica the activation is free. And as you said yourself you can do two Bol in the time it takes you to get one budding seeds to activate.

Therefore when you spam budding seeds and the other healer spam Bol, the Bol drains magica faster because you can spam Bol in succession. If the other healer would press Bol only when you activated your budding seeds(for the heal not when you put it down) you would both preserve magica equally.

In other words the templar should only press Bol when you press your second click for activation.

Edit: In your video when you cast budding seeds and templar cast Bol. The templar cast 10 BoL and you only cast 5 budding seeds so ofcourse templar runs out of magica when she cast 100% more times than you; wich proves my point above

KamoChameleon

Haha

Gulnagel wrote: »

Isn't the test with the other templar healer a bit off?

When you cast budding seeds you have to click again for it to activate. But it is only the first cast that cost magica the activation is free. And as you said yourself you can do two Bol in the time it takes you to get one budding seeds to activate.

Therefore when you spam budding seeds and the other healer spam Bol, the Bol drains magica faster because you can spam Bol in succession. If the other healer would press Bol only when you activated your budding seeds(for the heal not when you put it down) you would both preserve magica equally.

In other words the templar should only press Bol when you press your second click for activation.

Edit: In your video when you cast budding seeds and templar cast Bol. The templar cast 10 BoL and you only cast 5 budding seeds so ofcourse templar runs out of magica when she cast 100% more times than you; wich proves my point above

Haha yeah I realised this after posting the video and hoped no one would notice:) But well caught. However, I assure you the point remains, having played both, there is no way resource management for Templar comes even close to the Warden. With the warden I have all spell power rings, and very little invested in recovery, and I can just keep going forever. Templar you really need to manage your resources and invest in recovery.

AngryOldMan

on my templar i use the healing staff ability most of the time, BOL is a nice emergancy heal but heal over time is what makes me manage to never run out of magica, and for supporting the group its all about those holy shards so they can sustain high DPS or tank without running out of resources. Was really disapointed when they changed repetance, but have learned to support the group in other ways

Urza1234

KamoChameleon wrote: »

Haha yeah I realised this after posting the video and hoped no one would notice:) But well caught. However, I assure you the point remains, having played both, there is no way resource management for Templar comes even close to the Warden. With the warden I have all spell power rings, and very little invested in recovery, and I can just keep going forever. Templar you really need to manage your resources and invest in recovery.

Radiant Aura
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Restoring_Aura

Restoring Focus
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Rune_Focus

Between Radiant Aura and Restoring Focus resource management for healing Templar becomes a joke.

KamoChameleon

AngryOldMan wrote: »

on my templar i use the healing staff ability most of the time, BOL is a nice emergancy heal but heal over time is what makes me manage to never run out of magica, and for supporting the group its all about those holy shards so they can sustain high DPS or tank without running out of resources. Was really disapointed when they changed repetance, but have learned to support the group in other ways

I think you're using BOL how it's supposed to be used:)

unknowngamer

With respect to group AvA Warden seems to be a better aoe healer/support outside of Remembrance no?

KamoChameleon

unknowngamer wrote: »

With respect to group AvA Warden seems to be a better aoe healer/support outside of Remembrance no?

I agree. Warden is better group healer, I think Templar is the better single target burst healer. BUT I guess the key difference is that the Templar can group heal more easily than the Warden can burst heal if that makes sense. So they have that advantage.

Skwor

exeeter702 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Honestly if you make the warden heals as good as a templar then there is no point in even having a templar class.

Wtf? So if templar isnt healing, it doesnt belong in the game? You do understand templar is not the INTENDED by design exclusive healer of elder scrolls online right?

You are confused.

Let’s see, a templar can not out dps a sorc, can’t out tank a dk, nope I am not confused. Take healing away and there is nothing left that is niche to the templar, they are then outclassed by all other classes. The game never achieved class balance with builds such that any class can perform any role and never will, as such I believe the classes need a unique roll.

What is the point of a class that cannot excel on at least thing? The warden was an answer to a problem that never existed and just muddy the waters now.

KamoChameleon

Skwor wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Honestly if you make the warden heals as good as a templar then there is no point in even having a templar class.

Wtf? So if templar isnt healing, it doesnt belong in the game? You do understand templar is not the INTENDED by design exclusive healer of elder scrolls online right?

You are confused.

Let’s see, a templar can not out dps a sorc, can’t out tank a dk, nope I am not confused. Take healing away and there is nothing left that is niche to the templar, they are then outclassed by all other classes. The game never achieved class balance with builds such that any class can perform any role and never will, as such I believe the classes need a unique roll.

What is the point of a class that cannot excel on at least thing? The warden was an answer to a problem that never existed and just muddy the waters now.

I definitely don't think the Templar has been replaced at all. I think Warden is still second fiddle to the Templar in healing. It is stronger in some aspects...ie group play in particular situations....but Templar has more healing options in any given scenario. For example, Templar can drop heal AOE's if they need to keep the group up and although I don't think it's as good it's still good. But if a single target is getting burst down a Templar can do BOL and the Warden has to line their heal up and hope like hell it hits and even then it's not as strong. So don't think Templars have been replaced, because they haven't been.

Jaimeh

I agree that templars still make exceptional healers; in addition to their burst healing, and general reactive healing style, which is great for 'oh crap' moments, as mentioned above, they also have a class purge skill, that's also a HOT, a class stat regen skill, enemy debuff skills, a damage mitigation ulti that does big damage as well when synergized, and a couple of very big heals, that although channeled, can be great in certain situations. They also have a faster resurrection passive perk that coupled with Kagrenac's makes rezzing super quick, and that's very handy in PvP, and in things like the new AS trial. They are definitely still going strong, but now having played a warden healer, I think the two classes are very complementary, and would actually make a strong combination for a trial.

exeeter702

Skwor wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Honestly if you make the warden heals as good as a templar then there is no point in even having a templar class.

Wtf? So if templar isnt healing, it doesnt belong in the game? You do understand templar is not the INTENDED by design exclusive healer of elder scrolls online right?

You are confused.

Let’s see, a templar can not out dps a sorc, can’t out tank a dk, nope I am not confused. Take healing away and there is nothing left that is niche to the templar, they are then outclassed by all other classes. The game never achieved class balance with builds such that any class can perform any role and never will, as such I believe the classes need a unique roll.

What is the point of a class that cannot excel on at least thing? The warden was an answer to a problem that never existed and just muddy the waters now.

You are confused in that your examples rely on the notion that the templar is by developer design, intentionally gimped in both the tanking and dps departments because they are can heal effectively. This is objectively false. Balancing issues are a completely seperate discussion.

Stam dk was top dog dps for a while at one point. No one raised a single eyebrow at that fact when considering many believe, under your same logic, that DKs are the only intended real tanks. Your logic sifgests this rule only applies to templar healers. I assure, there are plenty of threads that have been made for the sole purpose of discussing templar both stam and mag dps values and how they can improve. Not a single soul worth listening to has ever said "you shouldnt be able to produce competetive dps on a templar or dk because they are best healer and tank".

You are confused. There is a very big difference between the discussion of current class balance and that of class / role diversity regarding viability.

Skwor

exeeter702 wrote: »

You are confused. There is a very big difference between the discussion of current class balance and that of class / role diversity regarding viability.

I understand the difference, the case you are making is a distinction without a difference. it does not matter how you bin the issue, given class balance does not achieve parity between the group roles for different builds it does not matter. Whether you call it balance or build diversity the practical result is what it is, the classes / builds do not provide an even enough parity to allow effective swapping for tanking or DPS.

So I believe my point stands, remove the healing or make another class's healing even with Templar and there is no real point to the Templar.

My argument does fail as soon as the Templar class is arguably an effective DPS or tank to compete with the current DPS / tank classes, at which point I will happily drop my views on this.

exeeter702

Skwor wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

You are confused. There is a very big difference between the discussion of current class balance and that of class / role diversity regarding viability.

I understand the difference, the case you are making is a distinction without a difference. it does not matter how you bin the issue, given class balance does not achieve parity between the group roles for different builds it does not matter. Whether you call it balance or build diversity the practical result is what it is, the classes / builds do not provide an even enough parity to allow effective swapping for tanking or DPS.

So I believe my point stands, remove the healing or make another class's healing even with Templar and there is no real point to the Templar.

My argument does fail as soon as the Templar class is arguably an effective DPS or tank to compete with the current DPS / tank classes, at which point I will happily drop my views on this.

Thats what i mean though, the game fluctuates all the time, there were many instances in this games lifespan where templar dps was rock solid. So the argument of wether or not templar has a point to existing when a stronger healer comes along doesnt really work since that variable happens all the time with other roles and classes.

Your initial comment suggested that you believe templars should be unrivaled as the difintive healer in this game when the truth is they were top healer for the longest time based on circumstance and not because the devs said templars are supposed to be the only real healer. Should the DK "class" be rendered pointless if and when zos decides to bolster the templar or sorcs tanking options to match or dare even surpass the dk in the role? What if stam dks are pushing 50k dps in that same patch / update?

Simply put, there are 5 healers in this game. It just so happens that 3 of them are noticably stronger than the other 2 at the moment. ZOS has already acknowledged this and you can rest assured your views will have to change going forward, just as they most likely changed back when templar dps was in a good spot, which just so happens to not be this current patch.