Group Vet Dungeons vs Solo Normal

Colecovision

I don't group and I can't seem to get very far into vet dungeons. I dps at around 10 - 12k and I've started slowly working my way solo through the normal dungeons. It's been very fun and I've cleared 9 in the last few weeks. I am wondering how people feel about the difficulty of soloing normal vs being 1 of 4 players in a vet dungeon. I assume 3 anchors can ruin the experience and 1 superhero can carry the group, but what is the middle ground on that? It just seems odd that everyone in zone chat (and here) needs specialists of 25k+ dps to be 25% of the group when less than half that is fine solo in normal. What is the difficulty gap on these?

coop500

It really depends, some dungeons are harder than others and have different requirements. Most vet people will probably expect 15 to 20K DPS minimum though, which is why my DPS toons never go into vet dungeons until I get them better.

Also DLC dungeons are always harder than base game dungeons.

Nestor

Vet Dungeons, especially the Vet II versions bring added mechanics and DPS checks to the game making them more challenging. And some dungeons, like the DLC ones are harder than others.

Your DPS is on the low side, but the difference between where you are now and 20k would be a rotation change in most cases. But, lets work with what we got.

I know you say you don't group, but are you in any guilds? Most guilds are loose affiliation of players and some run Group Dungeon events in order to teach you how to get better, not come down on you for doing less. Grouping from zone chat is hit or miss. Grouping from guilds is much better.

Are you on the NA server? If so, I can get you in a guild that would be helpful for you to learn and do group dungeons. Send me an email in game to @Nestor and I can get you hooked up. We can even teach you about Trials too.

Milvan

non dlc vets you can easily run them with 20k dps. Even City of Ash 2 you can easily complete it now with just that.

Dlc Vets I certainly expect more than 25k minimum, 30k dps for a smooth run.


But for real, 10~12k dps? You definitely should check some guides online, this is way too low.

FrancisCrawford

Based on my experience, it seems that:

1. Soloing a dungeon in normal mode is easier than duoing the same dungeon in vet mode.

2. Healing a dungeon in vet mode with a full team (found via Group FInder) is easier than duoing the same dungeon in normal mode.

My duoing experience is with my wife, using voice chat; she and I are at approximately the same level of play. (In other games she's been a better player than I am; in this one I think I'm a little better than she is right now, but not by a lot.)

Ruusa

Which dungeons have you been soloing and which vet dungeons have you been trying? Those same dungeons that are easy to solo (spindle I, fungal grotto I, coa I, Vaults of madness, Banished cells I etc) absolutely can be done on vet with both dd's doing 12k dps with not much trouble, it will just be very slow.

Thing is, most people looking for group in zone chat want a fast run. So if you are trying to get a group for the same dungeons you soloed, then problem is not difficulty it's speed.

Now if you have been queuing to DLC dungeons, then you are in trouble, as 12k is not enough for those.

Colecovision

@Ruusa I started with the easiest ones on purpose. FG I, Darskshade I and II, Elden I, Spindle I, Arx I, CoH I, COA I, and VOM. I also got to the plates in Direfrost. Fun little surprise that was. I've never queued for any dungeon, let alone vet dlc. Most of the forum comments indicate that I'm not qualified to be part of a normal group. I find it interesting that you think any of the vet dungeons can be done at with a couple 12k players, as long as no one is in a hurry. I only tried vet FGI and vet COAI. I got lit up quick, but I went in alone.

@Nestor ,I may hit you up this weekend. It's odd that 20k seems so out of reach. I'm sure I'm doing a lot more at times, but I don't know when and I can't keep it up for 3m hp. I think a big part of it is the animation canceling. It's not intuitive to me in the least. Nor is the constant weapon swapping. Do you recommend a rotation? I'm using one from one of the big names. I won't call him out since my dps isn't on him. It's really high when he does the rotation.

Nestor

My Rotations are influenced by the Build Streamers, not copied from them. I did copy one once that got me to 60K DPS, I did that a few times and went back to the way I always did it. I also don't animation cancel like the young folks around here, my playstyle is more relaxed.

The problem with copying someone else's build, is it is someone else's build, not yours. They also tend to have gear that drops as rewards from the toughest content in the game. Well, if you can do the toughest content in the game, do you really need that gear? Do rotations that make sense to you. Me I don't swap bars all that often, and when I do, it's to go between AoE and Single target, not to go from Attack bar to Buff or Back Bar. You might do that swapping more often, it all depends.

Find skills that make sense to you, and practice the rotations until they feel right to you, then try to do some animation canceling to speed things up.

One rotation example is

1. Buff Skill
2. DoT/Snare
3. Damage Spam or another DoT
4. Damage Spam
5. Shield or Recovery as needed

Notice I did not put any skills in there? I view it as more functions and fill in the skills later.

As for maintaining 25K for a 3 Million HP Target Dummy, sure, you can do that, but, how often in the game do you need to maintain that level of DPS for that long? Not very, and then it's only a few of the DLC Vet Dungeon Bosses or the some of the Vet II Dungeon Bosses that need that. 98% of the content in the game does not require massive DPS forever.

So, in other words, your on the Go Kart track right now, next will be SCCA racing, then Formula Ford, then GTP, then the Sprints, then NASCAR Truck Series, then NASCAR, then Indy Car, then Formula 1. You don't need a Formula One build right now. Heck, Sprints level is all you need for most anything in the game.

WrathOfInnos

For soloing your are probably building for some survivability and sustain. With groups you can go more pure damage (with gear and skills) so that should be a large DPS gain.

josiahva

12k DPS will get you through any dungeon(Vet, normal, DLC, any of them except vRoM and maybe one or two others) it just a matter of how long it will take. If you have low DPS, you better make up for it with skilled gameplay as far as mechanics go. As a tank, I honestly don't care about DPS numbers if the player knows the mechanics well enough for it not to matter. The one exception being vRoM, where a minimum DPS is required for the last boss. The nightmare is when someone has low DPS, and also cant survive(standing in the Ogrim breath in vCoS, standing in the stupids, not letting the tank aggro the mob before rushing in, etc.)

Nestor

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

For soloing your are probably building for some survivability and sustain. With groups you can go more pure damage (with gear and skills) so that should be a large DPS gain.

Yes, this is a big point. When in a group with a decent healer and tank, I don't have to worry so much about myself and keep me healed up. I also don't have to run around and avoid the boss's attacks if the tank has aggro. Still does not mean to stand in stupid (red circles) and to not try to avoid damage. I also don't have to get up close and personal with the mobs as, again, the tank is doing that, so I can stand off and range my attacks from a place of safety.

Also, groups tend to buff players, so DPS goes up there. On my sorererer, I am 3100 spell damage self buffed, but group buffs can take that up to 4500 to 4800 spell damage

Kanar

If you stay alive then 12k is do-able for any non-dlc vet dungeon. For dlc dungeons, you'd have to be a master at the mechanics to make that work.

Problem would be if you get in a dungeon and the other DPS does 5k. If you were doing 20-30 then it would be workable but with only 12k it would be a slow slog.

GrigorijMalahevich

If you want to solo something go to veteran maelstrom arena

ChunkyCat

Some mechanics are just annoying to solo.

Vaults of Madness for example. I was in there trying to farm some rattle cage swords and the second boss has this annoying mechanic that stuns you for like 30 seconds. You can’t break free and are just stuck floating in the air. All the while it’s getting healed by little floaty balls that pop up and there’s nothing you can do but wait until the stun wears off.

It’s annoying as ***.

MissBizz

Hey there! *Most* of the time, low DPS is your rotation not being very tidy. Lots of the "BiS" gear has a much easier version to grab if gear is working against you. I definietly suggest joining a friendly guild that A) Won't mind teaching you group dungeons, even are your current DPS and can help you improve your DPS if you want to. I happen to know one Message Nestor.

As for the "weaving" and animation cancelling bit - I'm still not great at it, but I can say that ever before I was attempting it at all, my DPS was higher than yours currently. It can help, but it's not going to pop up your DPS to match that streamers.

Another note - build for you. I usually get general ideas from the big names, and tweak to fit me. One example is I was previously told how frags was better than clench, and it probably is, problem was that when I tried to use frags - I'd lose count of my rotation, let my DoT's drop and my DPS would be worse. With clench the rotation was just.. exactly the same all the time, so I was able to do it much better - resulting in higher DPS for me.

Jamini

Nestor wrote: »

I did copy one once that got me to 60K DPS

Pics or it didn't happen.

60k isn't a ST number outside of seriously ideal raid situations (and even then I don't think many of those groups have even one person who has done that. Breaking 50k is a massive accomplishment and requires a near-flawless gear and rotation combo on top of a full supporting raid.).

I sincerely DOUBT you hit that in a non-AoE fight. (AoE is not considered valid when comparing solo parses. If I were to pick my top AoE parse, it would be something like 200k in CoHII with elemental rage on trash packs.)

You really want 15k per DPS for vet dungeons and normal trials, 20k for vet DLC, and 25k bare minimum for vet trials.

Nestor

Jamini wrote: »

Pics or it didn't happen.

@Jamini

This is what I did

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/343901/71k-dps-magicka-sorcerer-pve-build

I only hit 60K, maybe 59K, as I did not have all the gear. And, I did not like all the swapping of the bars it required. But, it was surprisingly easy to get that high a DPS, I just never see the need for it.

s7732425ub17_ESO

I find it significantly easier to solo normals than to do most Vet dungeons no matter the group. Granted, I use max CP and optimal gear, but Vet dungeons overall are harder. The damage is so low in normals that you can ignore most boss mechanics and there really aren't any one-shots. But in Vet, even if your group is really, really good, you are responsible for avoiding most damage- you can't just rely on your healer.

Jamini

Nestor wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Pics or it didn't happen.

@Jamini

This is what I did

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/343901/71k-dps-magicka-sorcerer-pve-build

I only hit 60K, maybe 59K, as I did not have all the gear. And, I did not like all the swapping of the bars it required. But, it was surprisingly easy to get that high a DPS, I just never see the need for it.

You didn't provide pics, just a link to an old build that doesn't even work post-morrowind.

Colecovision

Valera Progib wrote: »

If you want to solo something go to veteran maelstrom arena

Oh, I will. I definitely will. No reason for a thread like this if I had no plans on that. At the moment, I can't do it. It took me a long time to beat normal, but now I just walk right through it. For vet, I can't get out of the first round. The gap is insane. That's what had me wondering about the Dungeon gap. My gut says that if you can solo normal, you should be allowed to participate in vet as 1 of 4. The overall group seems to think that mostly holds up, but also that if the other dps is worse than me, it's bad news for all four of us. I also get the sense that everyone says it's doable, but they'd rather have a stronger dps in the group. I'm not entering a group with people who don't want me there and when you are honest about low dps, people don't.

Also for vMA, I think I need gear from dungeons to do better. Pledge keys from soloing normal dungeons is slow going. Transmutation crystals are literally 1 slow normal dungeon at a time and of course I don't have a single monster helmet. I'm hoping there is a decent helmet for sale tonight to at least get me started.

Regardless, there are nice people out there if I can just be a bit more social. I'm fine with straight up hand eye coordination games, I have gold, 525 cp to work with, I can craft and I have no ego about any of this. Reasonable dps should be doable if I finally just reach out and look for the right guild. For that I think I'll take the kind offers here and give that a shot this weekend.

On a side note, I'm a Khajiit stamblade. The "hardest class" thread has me wondering if I should just respec to give magblade a shot.

raj72616a

like it's been said above, your dps isnt high, but is viable for many vet dungeons, albeit you cannot carry a weak dps in a pug.

what are your current equipments and skills?

Mojmir

Only reason to do vet version is helm and purple jewelry for me.

VaranisArano

Soloing normal means dealing with all of the boss mechanics. And when every attack is focused on you, it becomes apparent that bosses have a lot of stuns, CCs, fears and mechanics that make you stop doing DPS or healing in order to deal with the mechanic. So the final boss fights tend to be really messy for me as I alternate between trying to do steady DPS and deal with healing/breaking free/interrupting whatever.

In comparison, doing vet dungeons with a decent team (I do them with friends and our DPS is not stellar) is more along the lines of doing a coordinated dance where I have my role (tank, usually) and just need to do my role well.

DocFrost72

You can solo spindle I at level 12 on a stamina templar. Cp jacked difficulty up, as older players with more cp have immense power that newer players can not achieve. That said, soloing a normal is harder than most story I vets in a group. Story II depend, and vet dlc are a whole new level.

potirondb16_ESO

Colecovision wrote: »

What is the difficulty gap on these?

It isn't that much the difficulty gap which makes people ask for higher dps.

To give you a clear view, with your dps, you'll have to work with mechanics in vet mode, with two 25k dps you'll work around the mechanics or if they apply they won't be a trouble.

12-15k dps is Ok if your group is willing to work with mechanics and work harder. Most group nowadays will work around mechanics since it is easy to do so for them.