Offensive AP ticks should be halved.

raviour

Its like the outpost farm in the 1st AP event at the moment, no-one cares about the map. People take resources while a keep is UA. No-one defends. This AP gain from capping stuff is just encouraging mindless zergalism.

Now that overground sets like Spinners or Spriggans are getting BoE jewelry possibly available we are having even more PvE mindless zergalistic heroes in Vivec. Tactics are nie impossible because idiots are running around taking the nearest resources just for AP. Anyone that was desperate for Grand Overlord got it during the AP exploit event.

Tactics in Cyrodiil are in a bad state due to greed, please half the amount of AP we get from capturing stuff.

VaranisArano

In my experience on PC/NA Vivec, people care plenty about the map, its just that PVPers each being a zone general unto themselves and akin to herding cats, everyone has a different opinion on exactly what is the best way to play the map. And everyone else is wrong, obviously.

Playing the map is part of what generates a zerg. When multiple organized raids + PUGs all show up at the same objective, the enemy looks at that and calls it a zerg. But those organized raids and PUGs didn't get there by accident - they came because that objective was important to their faction at the moment. They move together because the next objective in line is also important to the faction. (As I like to say, when my faction has multiple raids +PUGs show up at the same objective, its strategic movement in support of the faction. Go team! When the other factions do it, they are zerging and should be ashamed.)

Fighting against a zerg requires both prepared defenders and other groups forcing that zerg to break up. Ever why wonder there's a group from your faction hitting enemy back keeps when your scrolls are being threatened? Shouldn't they be defending the scrolls instead of PvDorring keeps?!?!?! Well, I should hope that the strategy of playing the map being used in that situation is not lost on you.

But properly executing tactics in Cyrodiil requires cooperation. Successful defenses especially take either a lot of players or a lot of cooperation. What essential piece is often missing in PVP where everyone is a zone general and akin to herding cats? Actual cooperation. And so we end up with something more realistic that we see every night in primetime: organized groups playing the map as they think is best, PUGs heading to important objectives where they think there's a fight, and everyone yelling at everyone else to go here and do this.

Rainraven

Yeah. It's not the only thing going on, but I've seen groups port out of a keep that's taking fire because why bother, they can take it back in half an hour for a better reward anyway. I've seen ring-around-Alessia, red group following yellow group to flip the rss, but they never engage each other. I've seen keeps with walls left at 0% to make the flipping back and forth go that much faster.

And maybe this would be fixed if o-ticks and d-ticks were equalized, but maybe the real issue is that people are perfectly fine with this and I guess enjoying themselves with that kind of play.

Better rewards for fighting NPCs than for defending against other players - since oddly enough the NPCs never rise up and try to take any keeps - how was that ever a good idea from a gameplay perspective? But if what people really want is AP with minimal fighting or risk, they're going to find a way. It's the most predictable thing in Cyrodiil at this point.

Twohothardware

They need to increase the amount of AP awarded for capturing or defending a heavily contested keep by a lot and majorly reduce the amount of AP earned for taking near empty keeps or sitting at an outpost or the Alessia bridge farming kills.

There's too much PvDooring going on where instead of attacking the keeps that would make a difference or heaven forbid mount a defense at keeps under attack you'll have zergs go and capture keeps where theres the least possible resistance and then they don't defend it they just move on to the next empty keep to capture it while the previous one is immediately flipped back to the enemy within 5 minutes. You also have a lot of the better players doing nothing but sitting at outposts rather than helping to defend or take keeps.

There also needs to be some sort of incentives to playing on the Alliances that have fewer players and are not in first place score as theres too many Campaigns where one Alliance builds up a lead and then it just snowballs when players start switching sides because they're tired of losing or getting zerged. I think something like double AP for playing on the Alliance in third place and 50% more AP for second place would be a strong incentive.

Imza

my guess is that much of this is because it is hard to find a group to run with in Cyrodiil, so you get a small group of 1-4 doing this a lot.....

Jamini

Halve OP ticks so people only defend keeps and the map stays static all the time?


Ahahahaha...
Oh wait, you're serious...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

Adenoma

Keep O ticks the same, but distribute them as a split like you do with AP earned within the tick range. If I take a resource, that's about the same amount of time as getting a kill (albeit, generally easier) and should be rewarded similarly - the same is true for half-credit for a resource taken by two people vs. a kill - they're both about 750 AP.

dotme

raviour wrote: »

...Tactics are nie impossible because idiots are running around taking the nearest resources just for AP...

I usually see resource grabs right before score evaluation, which is very tactical IMHO

Twohothardware wrote: »

...I think something like double AP for playing on the Alliance in third place and 50% more AP for second place would be a strong incentive...

I like this suggestion!

TequilaFire

I disagree OP as I spent too long as part of a guild who played the map offensively capturing keeps and resources for campaign scoring only to end up lower in alliance rank than players that just farmed ap at towers and the like.
Now at least players that play to win the campaign earn ap at a rate equal to the ap farmers.

wazzz56

TequilaFire wrote: »

I disagree OP as I spent too long as part of a guild who played the map offensively capturing keeps and resources for campaign scoring only to end up lower in alliance rank than players that just farmed ap at towers and the like.
Now at least players that play to win the campaign earn ap at a rate equal to the ap farmers.

Its not even close anymore, you can get way more ap flipping keeps and resources than you can farming a resource defensive ticks just are not worth it unless it is 1-2 people farming..and lets be honest, you get maybe 2-3 minutes before others from your alliance show up leeching the ap from your farm.

In the long run, it is much more ap to be had from pvdooring..and I hate it..it has ruined cyrodiil and created what are essentially PVE 5 star Generals....

TequilaFire

wazzz56 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I disagree OP as I spent too long as part of a guild who played the map offensively capturing keeps and resources for campaign scoring only to end up lower in alliance rank than players that just farmed ap at towers and the like.
Now at least players that play to win the campaign earn ap at a rate equal to the ap farmers.

Its not even close anymore, you can get way more ap flipping keeps and resources than you can farming a resource defensive ticks just are not worth it unless it is 1-2 people farming..and lets be honest, you get maybe 2-3 minutes before others from your alliance show up leeching the ap from your farm.

In the long run, it is much more ap to be had from pvdooring..and I hate it..it has ruined cyrodiil and created what are essentially PVE 5 star Generals....

It is not true that keeps are always empty when we take them. Often there is a very long battle over a keep when the opposing alliance does what it is supposed to and defends the keep. Some of the most epic battles happen outside the keep when the defenders push out. Very tired of it being called PvP dooring, that term used to be reserved for taking keeps at night when no one else was on. But now if you aren't a tower farmer it is used as an insult.
Sorry objective of the game in Cyrodiil is to win the campaign not farm AP.
BGs are for small scale.

DocFrost72

When I'm alone (and a PvEer) the best I can do is cap resources solo for my alliance's scorecard. Sorry I let you down senpai. I'll come back at 3 am EST.

wazzz56

TequilaFire wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I disagree OP as I spent too long as part of a guild who played the map offensively capturing keeps and resources for campaign scoring only to end up lower in alliance rank than players that just farmed ap at towers and the like.
Now at least players that play to win the campaign earn ap at a rate equal to the ap farmers.

Its not even close anymore, you can get way more ap flipping keeps and resources than you can farming a resource defensive ticks just are not worth it unless it is 1-2 people farming..and lets be honest, you get maybe 2-3 minutes before others from your alliance show up leeching the ap from your farm.

In the long run, it is much more ap to be had from pvdooring..and I hate it..it has ruined cyrodiil and created what are essentially PVE 5 star Generals....

It is not true that keeps are always empty when we take them. Often there is a very long battle over a keep when the opposing alliance does what it is supposed to and defends the keep. Some of the most epic battles happen outside the keep when the defenders push out. Very tired of it being called PvP dooring, that term used to be reserved for taking keeps at night when no one else was on. But now if you aren't a tower farmer it is used as an insult.
Sorry objective of the game in Cyrodiil is to win the campaign not farm AP.
BGs are for small scale.

I never said that you , yourself , only take empty keeps, but there are ppl who do just that....my statement was that they made it far more enticing to take empty keeps versus fighting ppl . I get that some people are more comfortable in large groups and it is what it is, but there are people who prefer a diff play style..just like you enjoy zerging, many do not..and it does not make them any less important to the campaign..and I am sorry but my objective in pvp is to have fun, zombie zergs are not how I have fun, but to each their own......and again bgs are in now way an viable source of small scale... and the ap gains for bgs are laughable

Crom_CCCXVI

NO, offense is where the ticks should be.

I was playing the game before the change. No more cheesy hiding in a resource all day.

Apache_Kid

This is a bad take. Imagine asking for a nerf to literally receive half the rewards for doing something in the game. I simply cannot.

xaraan

They should be split by everyone at the objective, including the base amount. It's pretty dumb to give an entire fifty people that show up to a resource a 1500 tick for just standing there b/c unless there was another 50 people there, they didn't work for anything. (And if there was another 50 there, they'd get the AP from the fight). You already get continuous, you don't need a bunch of free AP to encourage every zerg to hit every target no matter how small.

WrathOfInnos

It's typically the PVE crowd that does not care about the campaign or map. They are only there to grind AP for Vigor, Caltrops, Purge, and Warhorn. Halving O-ticks will not solve this problem, because they are not interested in facing skilled PVPers in battles they will likely lose.

Just leave capture rewards high so they can get their skills and get out of Cyrodiil.

Now, if you think that defense needs to be more in line with offense for rewards, I would be in favor of doubling D-ticks.

kylewwefan

Speaking from a mostly PvE stance, We need AP for things. Have no real interest in fighting other players. Just want to take your stuff and then you can take it right back. It’s cyclical really.

Not everyone thinks like this. But this is the general PvE mindset I think.

Some want achievements. Like scroll running. Or Emp. Or cool tittles like Grand Overlord.


Then there’s the actual PvPers. They want to get out there and crack skulls. They want to fight other players. They want to crush all these PvEers in their full divines glass cannon builds. We are potatoes to them.

Oddly, I don’t think many PvPers really enjoy fighting other PvPers. You know. The ones that can bite back. Sometimes harder. They get all but hurt when they lose a fight and call u out for using cheese build or some garbage.

Nightfall12

As a former only pve'r who decided to test pvp, when they doubled the AP. (My thoughts were Hell there will lots that don't know what they are doing there as well, so might as well)
I found that PvP was pretty awesome, sure i got killed waaaaayyyyy more than i liked, but that was to be expected. I still get beat often, and as you learn the differences it is a steep curve. When i first started i had a strictly pve gear set, I know better now. I have since made a new toon with PvP in mind from the start. survives much better.
However I find that people that generally solo pve, when going into PvP are just trying to learn the pvp game and they tend to get looked down on as if they are only there for the skills and early stuff. That attitude is not going to help anything get better, and it will not make them want to get better either. With geode crystals easier to get in PvP compared to PvE expect more PvE types coming in. (a solo player really isn't going to have much luck doing vet dungeons, but a solo player can get enough AP to earn a reward) I just look at the map and say hmm there is activity at that keep someone is taking resources maybe that will lead to a keep battle. I head there, if no one attacks the keep, then i head out and retake those resources. Sometimes it gets me in sweet keep defenses other time its just mills…
I do know that when i try to find keeps that we are attacking As a solo player if often leads to showing up late and getting there just as the enemy is wiping out the last attackers.

In conclusion, if people try to help new players rather than just complain, you might get better players in the mix.

Anrose

kylewwefan wrote: »

Speaking from a mostly PvE stance, We need AP for things. Have no real interest in fighting other players. Just want to take your stuff and then you can take it right back. It’s cyclical really.

This is precisely the behavior that PvPers want to stop.

kylewwefan wrote: »

Oddly, I don’t think many PvPers really enjoy fighting other PvPers. You know. The ones that can bite back. Sometimes harder. They get all but hurt when they lose a fight and call u out for using cheese build or some garbage.

The ones who play this game for PvP absolutely do want to fight other players. We want to fight players with a skill level that after our fight is done, we can say, “Well that was fun,” whether we won or lost.

What we don’t want is to chase players around the map running away from fights because they want big fat juicy o-ticks and nothing more.

Bring back the tickenings of yesteryear.

Hexquisite

I think that you would end up with a really static map. I used to play a campaign where people defended much more than going out to take keeps & rss, and, frankly it was quite boring, and the map did not budge much--every faction was defending and yelling at people who came in and tried to play different. I was so happy when another faction came in and started night capping because the map started to be more fluid and fun, even though this annoys me in my current campaigns.

Also, pots cost money, even if you are crafting them yourself. If you spend most of your time in pvp, you would have no way to keep up with the cost of immovable pots and siege without AP. Some people carry 3 or 4 different kinds of pots that are 15k to 30k a stack...and then the detect pots and poisons too. It all adds up.

I spent 90 mins tonight defending Ash on DC, from both EP and AD, the fights were epic. Sometimes strategy was to peel some enemies off by sending a team to take RSS or flag enemy keeps. Those people deserve to make good AP too, because they are doing an important job of pulling some pressure off. While I am sure that there is selfish ap farming, often times it is not.

Morgul667

Attack must be rewarding or people will stay in their keep and defend

Feanor

kylewwefan wrote: »

Speaking from a mostly PvE stance, We need AP for things. Have no real interest in fighting other players. Just want to take your stuff and then you can take it right back. It’s cyclical really.

Not everyone thinks like this. But this is the general PvE mindset I think.

Some want achievements. Like scroll running. Or Emp. Or cool tittles like Grand Overlord.


Then there’s the actual PvPers. They want to get out there and crack skulls. They want to fight other players. They want to crush all these PvEers in their full divines glass cannon builds. We are potatoes to them.

Oddly, I don’t think many PvPers really enjoy fighting other PvPers. You know. The ones that can bite back. Sometimes harder. They get all but hurt when they lose a fight and call u out for using cheese build or some garbage.

I wonder how PvE players would feel if we could get the vet DLC trial achievements just by standing next to the entrance.

Anrose

What if they were to change how much AP from player kills was distributed in the ticks?

For instance, the AP awarded for a single player death is ~1800 taking into account several variables. This AP is distributed to all players contributing to the kill. That same number of AP is then added to the tick pool for that area (keep, outpost, resource).

What if that ~1800 toward the tick is doubled if the tick is awarded to the defending side, but remains the original value if it’s awarded to the offensive side?

This would not change the AP gains for offensive ticks, but would make defending keeps, outposts, and resources more appealing from an AP standpoint. Then the mindset of “just let it flip and we’ll take it back” might not be the most profitable option.

raviour

@Anrose you hit the nail on the head.

Thanks all for the comments and in my opinion defensive ticks need to be brought in-line with offensive ticks.

Also I love a cheeky leech but the AP gain should be based on your involvement in the fight. I know Zeni are scared of adding extra calculations to PVP but it was not the deer that started the lag fest. It some weird thing to combat bots, however Zeni live in the fear of DDOS so botters are still roaming free.

paulsimonps

I would love for Defensive ticks to be a more valuable source of AP, but at the moment its more that there are so many ways to troll people out of AP ticks by just having one person, just one, come back over and over before the 1min delay has run its course. That kind of stuff prevents D ticks. Change how Defensive ticks are rewarded and I think we will see more AP gain from successful defenses.

f047ys3v3n

I'm thinking the OP must not have been around in the days of low offensive AP ticks. Boy let me tell you it was fun to try to bait players into attacking in order to get a D tick you had to wait anxiously to eventually have happen hoping a bunch of pugs didin't show up after the fight in that interminable wait to steal your AP. Oh, it was so much fun all anybody ever did was fight at gates, bridges, and in towers at resources far in the enemy back field.

You must really be new to make this suggestion.

kyle.wilson

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I'm thinking the OP must not have been around in the days of low offensive AP ticks. Boy let me tell you it was fun to try to bait players into attacking in order to get a D tick you had to wait anxiously to eventually have happen hoping a bunch of pugs didin't show up after the fight in that interminable wait to steal your AP. Oh, it was so much fun all anybody ever did was fight at gates, bridges, and in towers at resources far in the enemy back field.

You must really be new to make this suggestion.

You mean back in the days where exploitive AP gains were reserved for pvp guild leads?
I observed hole raids bail off a resource to give all the AP to the leader.

AllPlayAndNoWork

I think the whole thing is arse about face. High AP for taking empty keeps but low AP for epic defences of them........

1 person takes an empty keep 6k. 50 people take an empty keep 6k each.

20 people save or defend that keep against 50 get tiny amounts (in comparison) of AP each..... Depending how long it was under attack for.

DivineFirstYOLO

^ NO, Raviour is not new and you sound very arrogant.

OP is right tho, it somehow has to change, maybe lower the base offensive tick to 4k and add bonus AP for every player you killed while taking it... of course you should lose AP for every player of your own alliance near that keep too -> that would prevent zerging a little bit and reward smaller groups.

paulsimonps

AllPlayAndNoWork wrote: »

I think the whole thing is arse about face. High AP for taking empty keeps but low AP for epic defences of them........

1 person takes an empty keep 6k. 50 people take an empty keep 6k each.

20 people save or defend that keep against 50 get tiny amounts (in comparison) of AP each..... Depending how long it was under attack for.

That is true, and it has to do with the fact that AP from D Ticks are only AP earned from kills during the defense, and that AP is divided between everyone. I had a friend to stayed behind on a Keep that was defended during an low pop camp emp push and since he was the only one there he got 100k AP from it since there was no one to share it with. But stuff like that are things of legends, usually its large scale fights with 20-75+ defenders that get F all AP. I think there should be a base reward for defending just like in capturing, especially with how much harder it is to defend sometimes, and the enemies can easily cheat you out of the D tick by sending one person in constantly over and over preventing the D Tick from happening. Seen it done far too many times. However a base D tick can easily be exploited for quick AP farming by 2 people of the opposing faction so a time limit like that of the O tick should be in place, and even then it might be that the base reward was half of that of the O tick or something but that is for devs to figure out if they like the idea. Eitherway, D ticks should feel more rewarding than they are this is true, but they should also not give so much that people stop capturing stuff like we had before the O tick buff.