Every DD Should Know their DPS with the Skeleton

bhagwad

This is genuinely friendly advice. So try and take it as such! You should know what your DPS is. High or low, you should know.

Yesterday, I formed a guild group for vet Falkreath hold. I opted to tank since we didn't have one. I was hoping each DD would pull at least 25k for smooth run - Domihaus in enrage mode in all that! We entered the dungeon and I noticed that one of the DDs had 32k health. I expressed my concern that 32k health is almost tank levels health and that his damage would suffer. He informed us that he was using Plague Doctor. He didn't know what his DPS was.

So I invited them both to my humble mud hut to wail on the skeleton in the courtyard.

DD 1 = 4k DPS
DD 2 = 6k DPS

The thought of doing vet Falkreath with <11k group DPS freezes the blood in my veins.

So my advice to DDs is this: Just be aware of what DPS numbers you're pulling. Trust me, there is some content in the game that cannot be done with low DPS. If you've never tested it before, I can pretty much guarantee you that the number isn't as high as you might believe. The first step to improving is knowing where you stand. When I first started out, my DPS was 8k. After lots of farming for the right gear, messing about with rotations, and buffs, I can pull 27k+ minimum. And I'm 500CP, so I haven't reached the cap yet.

If you didn't know, console users can test their DPS on a skeleton. It gives a readout after you're done hitting it. If you don't have a skeleton, you can find someone who does and visit their house. Maybe your guild has such a place. Or your guild leader. Once you know that number, you will feel the need to keep pushing it higher. And you can start from there!

Furcula

Did the 32k health person also happen to be using vampire skills? If so, I know who you are talking about and OH GOD.

bhagwad

Furcula wrote: »

Did the 32k health person also happen to be using vampire skills? If so, I know who you are talking about and OH GOD.

No, we didn't start the dungeon after seeing the numbers. But like I said, I don't want to blame or shame anyone. We were all new at one time to things like DPS rotations, buff uptimes, weaving etc.

But a person would learn all that only if they want to get a higher DPS. And you won't want a higher DPS unless you know what you have right now.

That's all I'm saying. Just know what DPS you're running. It's the single biggest step to pulling higher numbers.

CardboardedBox

It can be hard for people to use the skeleton who are unfamiliar with it, due to how strict it is on rotation. One little slip up will plummet it's final dps score. It's often pretty inaccurate if you don't know what you're doing. I can almost guarantee they do more than 4-6k dps, and just didn't know how to use the skeleton properly.

Kanar

If you're on PC/NA, Look me up if you want a damage dealer for vFH hm. I'm always up for that dungeon and know some other great DDs too. That dungeon is not just about skelly DPS but also staying alive.

Denyiir

CardboardedBox wrote: »

It can be hard for people to use the skeleton who are unfamiliar with it, due to how strict it is on rotation. One little slip up will plummet it's final dps score. It's often pretty inaccurate if you don't know what you're doing. I can almost guarantee they do more than 4-6k dps, and just didn't know how to use the skeleton properly.

I think in most situations it's actually opposite. With dummy you don't have to avoid damage, sometimes heal/cast shields, or chase it because it's not moving

bhagwad

I don't deny that a real dungeon situation is very different from just hitting a skeleton. There will be dodging, mechanics, resses, resource issues, targets moving out of AoEs, reapplying DoTs in different places, lower buff uptimes etc etc. I completely agree with all that.

A good skelly DPS is not sufficient at all.

However, I would argue that it's necessary. You simply cannot complete vet Falkreath hold if your skelly DPS is 6k. I'm sorry, but you just can't.

What a skelly does is burn rotations and weaves into your mind so that they become second nature. Then in a real dungeon situation, you fingers will move automatically so you can free your mind to worry about the actual mechanics. That's what a skelly DPS test is good for. Knowing the DPS you can sustain on your own, and muscle memory.

Svenja

Someone doing 6k dps on the skeleton won't be miraculously dealing 15k+ in a dungeon where movement is involved just because they don't know "how to use the skeleton properly".

Hortator Indoril Nerevar

coop500

I haven't tested all of my DPS toons, but that's mainly because I'm not done building them yet, they just have groundfind gear because I don't want to waste mats on sets they'll outlevel anyway, so I know their DPS sucks, but that's why at most I do normal dungeons with them, that's it, until I get them to 50 and have the mats to create what I need.

SecretAtoz

What is the proper way to determine your dps number? DPS the skeleton target dummy with buff or without buff(No crit pots, no ele drain, etc)? I been doing it without buff.

TequilaFire

On console the dummies are highly inaccurate without addons to break down what is going on.

Liley

SecretAtoz wrote: »

What is the proper way to determine your dps number? DPS the skeleton target dummy with buff or without buff(No crit pots, no ele drain, etc)? I been doing it without buff.

Buffing yourself, but not be buffed by other people (so no spell power cure etc.)

Tan9oSuccka

How is that possible?

My main is a tank and pulls higher than that. Yikes!

Loc2262

CardboardedBox wrote: »

It can be hard for people to use the skeleton who are unfamiliar with it, due to how strict it is on rotation. One little slip up will plummet it's final dps score. It's often pretty inaccurate if you don't know what you're doing. I can almost guarantee they do more than 4-6k dps, and just didn't know how to use the skeleton properly.

Forgive me, but what's there to "use properly" about the skeleton? Just pretend it's a well-tanked dungeon boss without noteworthy group damage mechanics, for example Bloodspawn or Slimecraw, and rotate away like you'd normally do.

In other words, if a DD doesn't even pull an okay DPS figure on a stationary target that doesn't fight back, how are they supposed to carry their weight in an actual fight?

Yes of course you can do slip ups in your rotation. Happens to everyone, even the very best players. But the occasional slip up will not reduce your DPS from say 30k to 5k.

I agree with the OP: It's not at all objectionable to have low DPS. It just becomes so if you - knowingly or unknowingly - want to do the hardest 4-man dungeons currently in the game with that DPS.

kojou

I don't think you can truly call yourself a DPS, unless you know what your DPS is.

Also... I actually enjoy having a contest with the other DD to see who can pull higher numbers for each fight. The whole combination of timing, positioning, and knowing when to move all plays in to your "score" for the fight.

Now if only there was a "tanking" dummy...

LadyNalcarya

CardboardedBox wrote: »

It can be hard for people to use the skeleton who are unfamiliar with it, due to how strict it is on rotation. One little slip up will plummet it's final dps score. It's often pretty inaccurate if you don't know what you're doing. I can almost guarantee they do more than 4-6k dps, and just didn't know how to use the skeleton properly.

Yes, the skeleton test is different from a dungeon boss. It just stands still and doesnt attack you.
So if someone pulls 6k on a static docile target, they would pull much less if they would need to move out of red circles, follow the boss if he's moving etc.
Of course a good skelly parse doesnt always translate into op dps in dungeons and raids, but any decent dd can get decent numbers on skeleton (because its easier than killing actual bosses).

Loc2262

SecretAtoz wrote: »

What is the proper way to determine your dps number? DPS the skeleton target dummy with buff or without buff(No crit pots, no ele drain, etc)? I been doing it without buff.

That's mostly personal (or guild/group) preference. I usually use any self-buffs that I want (and am willing to afford in terms of potions), including ele drain. For comparison, it's also okay to have another player apply ele drain to evaluate your sustain, or major fracture in case of a stam char that doesn't have a skill for that.

If you don't have sustain issues without ele drain, you can also leave it out and compensate for the missing Major Breach by multiplying your DPS by 1,1056 (Major Breach reduces the target's resistance by 5280 points which results in 10.56% more dmg taken, except the attacker over-penetrates).

CardboardedBox

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

CardboardedBox wrote: »

It can be hard for people to use the skeleton who are unfamiliar with it, due to how strict it is on rotation. One little slip up will plummet it's final dps score. It's often pretty inaccurate if you don't know what you're doing. I can almost guarantee they do more than 4-6k dps, and just didn't know how to use the skeleton properly.

Yes, the skeleton test is different from a dungeon boss. It just stands still and doesnt attack you.
So if someone pulls 6k on a static docile target, they would pull much less if they would need to move out of red circles, follow the boss if he's moving etc.
Of course a good skelly parse doesnt always translate into op dps in dungeons and raids, but any decent dd can get decent numbers on skeleton (because its easier than killing actual bosses).

I just mean if you Don't keep constant damage on it from the second you start to the second it's dead, your score will suffer. The dps readout loves it's aoe's, and if those two people had no aoe dealing constant damage, it will read out a significantly lower number than they are actually doing. Every second of no damage, hurts the score. So no aoe, worse final score.

But of course, im just assuming they had no aoe from what op said about how low their dps was. Now, if they DID have an aoe, and their dps readout was still that low.....well........yeah....

If they had no aoe damages set off, this thread should be more directed towards informing people of those.

Edit- sorry not aoe, meant dot.

Kiralyn2000

Loc2262 wrote: »

Forgive me, but what's there to "use properly" about the skeleton? Just pretend it's a well-tanked dungeon boss without noteworthy group damage mechanics, for example Bloodspawn or Slimecraw, and rotate away like you'd normally do.

I would imagine, for people getting really low DPS on a target skeleton, the next question (which they might not even know to ask) is.... "and how do I figure out this 'rotation' thing?"

edit: like, someone who's just leveled up soloing through overworld stuff, they might have a typical pattern for attacking a group of normal mobs ("sneak attack that guy, aoe, cc one guy charging me, burn down the other, burn down the stunned one, burn down the third"), but that doesn't necessarily develop into a 'rotation' when they're suddenly confronted with a tanked boss. Even dealing with delve & quest bosses (which you might kite all over the place if you're soloing) won't give useful experience there. Where do they learn "rotation"?

LadyNalcarya

CardboardedBox wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

CardboardedBox wrote: »

It can be hard for people to use the skeleton who are unfamiliar with it, due to how strict it is on rotation. One little slip up will plummet it's final dps score. It's often pretty inaccurate if you don't know what you're doing. I can almost guarantee they do more than 4-6k dps, and just didn't know how to use the skeleton properly.

Yes, the skeleton test is different from a dungeon boss. It just stands still and doesnt attack you.
So if someone pulls 6k on a static docile target, they would pull much less if they would need to move out of red circles, follow the boss if he's moving etc.
Of course a good skelly parse doesnt always translate into op dps in dungeons and raids, but any decent dd can get decent numbers on skeleton (because its easier than killing actual bosses).

I just mean if you Don't keep constant damage on it from the second you start to the second it's dead, your score will suffer. The dps readout loves it's aoe's, and if those two people had no aoe dealing constant damage, it will read out a significantly lower number than they are actually doing. Every second of no damage, hurts the score. So no aoe, worse final score.

But of course, im just assuming they had no aoe from what op said about how low their dps was. Now, if they DID have an aoe, and their dps readout was still that low.....well........yeah....

If they had no aoe damages set off, this thread should be more directed towards informing people of those.

Edit- sorry not aoe, meant dot.

Yeah, I mean... Its the same in actual combat.
Dps rotation includes a few sources of DoT damage and a spammable attack. Of course, sustaining all DoTs might be difficult in some situations, but the rotation is still the same. Its just more difficult to perform because of all the red circles and mechanics.
So, if someone fails an easy version of dps test (dummy), they will also fail an actual boss fight. Group buffs can improve dps, but they wont help if dd struggles with their rotation.

Yeah, those people probably didnt know about dps rotations. And that's the problem: veteran content requires it, but its not explained in game. Perhaps it would be a good idea if the first Undaunted quest would briefly explain the concepts of dps, tanking and healing for those new to mmos.

zaria

CardboardedBox wrote: »

It can be hard for people to use the skeleton who are unfamiliar with it, due to how strict it is on rotation. One little slip up will plummet it's final dps score. It's often pretty inaccurate if you don't know what you're doing. I can almost guarantee they do more than 4-6k dps, and just didn't know how to use the skeleton properly.

Combat metric on pc is very nice here, you can do an limited parse and see not only your dps but also the presentage and up time of various effects.
On console you want the 3 million health skeleton as you get result twice as fast as with the 6 M health one.

Shardan4968

I haven't tested my current DPS yet, but I just soloed normal Banished Cells on my stamblade so I think it's pretty decent.

jssriot

My 2 cents, after doing dps in this game for almost 2 years:

We need a better way to parse dps than a stationary dummy. Does this tell you if the dps understands mechanics or how to prioritize? Does this tell you if the dps know the dps role in a 4-player dungeon at all? How the heck is being able to just speed run everything with massive dps mean you know anything about dps in this kind of content? OMG this is the really such a regressive thing. It's "smart" the way grinding your toon up to 50 by just doing dolmens or Skyreach is "smart." Stahp. pls.

Also we need ways to advance as dps and have actual dps class balance that does not rely on exploits. By exploits, I mean mainly animation cancelling, but there are other things. I flat out resent being told that if I want to do vet trials with such and such guild I need to get tutored by some dude who's a "wizard" with animation cancelling just to boost my stupid stationary dummy parse by maybe 2k. WTH is that about? If animation cancelling is this important to progression, ESO needs to own it and enable features that make it easier to do (without getting carpal tunnel syndrome) and teach people how to do it.

One last thing: I strongly support a progressive min cp requirement on vet dungeons, like there is for regular normal non-dlc dungeons. I think a lot of changes in the game in the past year have hurt the sense of progression the game started with and this is one thing advancing players--and some more experienced players--are losing sight of. There's a creeping culture within ESO right now that seems to say if you can't do X amount of dps on a stupid dummy, you shouldn't be doing vet or even some
normal end game content. But that leap from being a 5-10k dps and monster 25+k dps can be very bewildering for a lot of players and it would be majorly helpful the game reminded people that progression is a thing in this game and HELPED PLAYERS PROGRESS.

zaria

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

I don't think you can truly call yourself a DPS, unless you know what your DPS is.

Also... I actually enjoy having a contest with the other DD to see who can pull higher numbers for each fight. The whole combination of timing, positioning, and knowing when to move all plays in to your "score" for the fight.

Now if only there was a "tanking" dummy...

That is random normal dungeon with an low dps group, used it then learning to heal.
Tanking is about handling the boss, healing is about healing and buffing so its easier to simulate simply pull some trolls on you and you can practice, yes knowing boss mechanics is also important then healing.

CardboardedBox wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

CardboardedBox wrote: »

It can be hard for people to use the skeleton who are unfamiliar with it, due to how strict it is on rotation. One little slip up will plummet it's final dps score. It's often pretty inaccurate if you don't know what you're doing. I can almost guarantee they do more than 4-6k dps, and just didn't know how to use the skeleton properly.

Yes, the skeleton test is different from a dungeon boss. It just stands still and doesnt attack you.
So if someone pulls 6k on a static docile target, they would pull much less if they would need to move out of red circles, follow the boss if he's moving etc.
Of course a good skelly parse doesnt always translate into op dps in dungeons and raids, but any decent dd can get decent numbers on skeleton (because its easier than killing actual bosses).

I just mean if you Don't keep constant damage on it from the second you start to the second it's dead, your score will suffer. The dps readout loves it's aoe's, and if those two people had no aoe dealing constant damage, it will read out a significantly lower number than they are actually doing. Every second of no damage, hurts the score. So no aoe, worse final score.

But of course, im just assuming they had no aoe from what op said about how low their dps was. Now, if they DID have an aoe, and their dps readout was still that low.....well........yeah....

If they had no aoe damages set off, this thread should be more directed towards informing people of those.

Edit- sorry not aoe, meant dot.

This, I have done an nAS there group dps on the last boss was 35K dps, good players has that as single target dps.
35K is weak for an group dps in an hard vet dungeon.
Granted plenty of time is done running around, far more time is used rezzing other players and most of all waiting for rezz
Did 7K so I was among the best

Rainraven

I'm pretty sure just heavy attacks with a lightning staff alternating with any single damaging ability would be more than 4k DPS.

Girl_Number8

Denyiir wrote: »

CardboardedBox wrote: »

It can be hard for people to use the skeleton who are unfamiliar with it, due to how strict it is on rotation. One little slip up will plummet it's final dps score. It's often pretty inaccurate if you don't know what you're doing. I can almost guarantee they do more than 4-6k dps, and just didn't know how to use the skeleton properly.

I think in most situations it's actually opposite. With dummy you don't have to avoid damage, sometimes heal/cast shields, or chase it because it's not moving

Yeah, I agree with you. I think the other is stupid as A dead dps is no dps.

Here's friendly advice, get off the lazy tanky and just unleash your ZoSly enormous dps and show 'em how it's done Baaaaby<3

zaria

bhagwad wrote: »

This is genuinely friendly advice. So try and take it as such! You should know what your DPS is. High or low, you should know.

Yesterday, I formed a guild group for vet Falkreath hold. I opted to tank since we didn't have one. I was hoping each DD would pull at least 25k for smooth run - Domihaus in enrage mode in all that! We entered the dungeon and I noticed that one of the DDs had 32k health. I expressed my concern that 32k health is almost tank levels health and that his damage would suffer. He informed us that he was using Plague Doctor. He didn't know what his DPS was.

So I invited them both to my humble mud hut to wail on the skeleton in the courtyard.

DD 1 = 4k DPS
DD 2 = 6k DPS

The thought of doing vet Falkreath with <11k group DPS freezes the blood in my veins.

So my advice to DDs is this: Just be aware of what DPS numbers you're pulling. Trust me, there is some content in the game that cannot be done with low DPS. If you've never tested it before, I can pretty much guarantee you that the number isn't as high as you might believe. The first step to improving is knowing where you stand. When I first started out, my DPS was 8k. After lots of farming for the right gear, messing about with rotations, and buffs, I can pull 27k+ minimum. And I'm 500CP, so I haven't reached the cap yet.

If you didn't know, console users can test their DPS on a skeleton. It gives a readout after you're done hitting it. If you don't have a skeleton, you can find someone who does and visit their house. Maybe your guild has such a place. Or your guild leader. Once you know that number, you will feel the need to keep pushing it higher. And you can start from there!

Yes its frustrating doing 50% of dps as healer, granted this mostly happens on trash.

And you can not do vFH with 11K dps, you have to kill last boss before all the pillars is down.

Two tips, 1) don't only hard cast crystal frag or snipe, 2) check an simpler rotation if you don't get good result using the streamers rotation, they are very good players. You don't drive as an rally driver drifting trough turnabouts as you are not an so good driver.

I did an lot of testing on my templar back then I was around cp200, I tested an bis rotation with relevant gear, julianos+ mother sorrow+ gold staffs. 15K dps, just spamming sweeps gave me 14, spamming dark flare while keeping entropy up gave me 16. Note 15K was with an macro of the bis rotation, doing it myself it was 13.
I found spamming dark flare was way better single target, this was before Morrowind.
I made an healer, never looked back don't even have an DD build for templar.

altemriel

bhagwad wrote: »

This is genuinely friendly advice. So try and take it as such! You should know what your DPS is. High or low, you should know.

Yesterday, I formed a guild group for vet Falkreath hold. I opted to tank since we didn't have one. I was hoping each DD would pull at least 25k for smooth run - Domihaus in enrage mode in all that! We entered the dungeon and I noticed that one of the DDs had 32k health. I expressed my concern that 32k health is almost tank levels health and that his damage would suffer. He informed us that he was using Plague Doctor. He didn't know what his DPS was.

So I invited them both to my humble mud hut to wail on the skeleton in the courtyard.

DD 1 = 4k DPS
DD 2 = 6k DPS

The thought of doing vet Falkreath with <11k group DPS freezes the blood in my veins.

So my advice to DDs is this: Just be aware of what DPS numbers you're pulling. Trust me, there is some content in the game that cannot be done with low DPS. If you've never tested it before, I can pretty much guarantee you that the number isn't as high as you might believe. The first step to improving is knowing where you stand. When I first started out, my DPS was 8k. After lots of farming for the right gear, messing about with rotations, and buffs, I can pull 27k+ minimum. And I'm 500CP, so I haven't reached the cap yet.

If you didn't know, console users can test their DPS on a skeleton. It gives a readout after you're done hitting it. If you don't have a skeleton, you can find someone who does and visit their house. Maybe your guild has such a place. Or your guild leader. Once you know that number, you will feel the need to keep pushing it higher. And you can start from there!

I totally agree with this post and it is good that you made this post and that you keep it with all the respect to newbies or "not-educated players".

It is very easy to play this game with no knowledge about builds nor skills, I was playing my fist char until maybe level 40 like that .

GrigorijMalahevich

zaria wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

This is genuinely friendly advice. So try and take it as such! You should know what your DPS is. High or low, you should know.

Yesterday, I formed a guild group for vet Falkreath hold. I opted to tank since we didn't have one. I was hoping each DD would pull at least 25k for smooth run - Domihaus in enrage mode in all that! We entered the dungeon and I noticed that one of the DDs had 32k health. I expressed my concern that 32k health is almost tank levels health and that his damage would suffer. He informed us that he was using Plague Doctor. He didn't know what his DPS was.

So I invited them both to my humble mud hut to wail on the skeleton in the courtyard.

DD 1 = 4k DPS
DD 2 = 6k DPS

The thought of doing vet Falkreath with <11k group DPS freezes the blood in my veins.

So my advice to DDs is this: Just be aware of what DPS numbers you're pulling. Trust me, there is some content in the game that cannot be done with low DPS. If you've never tested it before, I can pretty much guarantee you that the number isn't as high as you might believe. The first step to improving is knowing where you stand. When I first started out, my DPS was 8k. After lots of farming for the right gear, messing about with rotations, and buffs, I can pull 27k+ minimum. And I'm 500CP, so I haven't reached the cap yet.

If you didn't know, console users can test their DPS on a skeleton. It gives a readout after you're done hitting it. If you don't have a skeleton, you can find someone who does and visit their house. Maybe your guild has such a place. Or your guild leader. Once you know that number, you will feel the need to keep pushing it higher. And you can start from there!

Yes its frustrating doing 50% of dps as healer, granted this mostly happens on trash.

And you can not do vFH with 11K dps, you have to kill last boss before all the pillars is down.

Two tips, 1) don't only hard cast crystal frag or snipe, 2) check an simpler rotation if you don't get good result using the streamers rotation, they are very good players. You don't drive as an rally driver drifting trough turnabouts as you are not an so good driver.

I did an lot of testing on my templar back then I was around cp200, I tested an bis rotation with relevant gear, julianos+ mother sorrow+ gold staffs. 15K dps, just spamming sweeps gave me 14, spamming dark flare while keeping entropy up gave me 16. Note 15K was with an macro of the bis rotation, doing it myself it was 13.
I found spamming dark flare was way better single target, this was before Morrowind.
I made an healer, never looked back don't even have an DD build for templar.

Well, on my magdk I can do flame leash build with only blockade of storm on vma staff barswap flame leash - light attack - flame leash - light attack... with charged inferno staff with shock enchant flame leash procs like it is going out of fashion and I can do around 26k-28k dps with using two skills - 90% of flame leashes proc during that light attack time, so you have endless sustain and it is supe fun to do in PvP against melee builds. I troll duel with it and people complain about how “lucky” I get with procs (yeah, right)

In all fairness there are loads of builds on the market that can do 25-30k dps with extremely simple rotation with couple of actions. Magsorc is probably best example with one of the easiest way to get minimum 30k dps

Jusey1

I'll be honest... I don't know my dps on my main damage character right now which is a Sorcerer (never really tested it; though I know it is pretty high). My stam nightblade, who is level 27 currently and doesn't even have proper max gear yet, does have like 16k dps.