BG Tanking is Out of Control!

Skoomah

Turning on CP has made building a character with near immortal tanking and low damage, that can't kill anyone on your own, the new meta in BGs. The Zerg mentality from Cyrodiil has infected BG.

Here's a breakdown by BG game mode.

Domination - Tank everyone, never die, stack flags and flip all flags, as long as you outnumber by the flag, the flag will slowly flip in your favor.

Crazy King - Tank like in Domination, just add some mobility.

Chaos Ball - Tank's wet dream, tank holds the ball until death and then hands it off to the other tank on the team upon death.

Capture the Relic - Tank by the flag and just bash the person trying to capture the flag, only time getting the flag works is when someone misses the bash.

Deathmatch - Everyone on the team is built to tank with very low damage but when the entire team focuses one enemy at a time, the team can score kills. Also, just ball the team up around the action, tank everything, combine the very low damage to focus fire and steal kills from others who did 90% of the damage.

We've gone from builds meant to 1vX to builds that Xv1. Tanking is the new Meta.

VaranisArano

Hey, man. I already replied to you on your other IDENTICAL thread, and I find it hard to get worked up on the same topic twice in a row.

So, copy-pasta from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/380311/cps-ruined-bgs#latest

Skoomah wrote: »

The Zerg mentality from Cyrodiil has infected BG.

I didn't realize it was possible to Zerg with only four people. Out in Cyrodiil, four is a small group.

Of course, from what you say, it does sound like 4 tanks is indeed the ideal strategy for teams that are focused on winning, not kills or dueling.

AverageJo3Gam3r

I agree. BGs are not fun anymore. It ends up being a gigantic cluster in the middle with 10 players tickling each other then using trees/shield wall/resto ult the second anyone gets below 80%

Biro123

Skoomah wrote: »

Turning on CP has made building a character with near immortal tanking and low damage, that can't kill anyone on your own, the new meta in BGs. The Zerg mentality from Cyrodiil has infected BG.

Here's a breakdown by BG game mode.

Domination - Tank everyone, never die, stack flags and flip all flags, as long as you outnumber by the flag, the flag will slowly flip in your favor.

Crazy King - Tank like in Domination, just add some mobility.

Chaos Ball - Tank's wet dream, tank holds the ball until death and then hands it off to the other tank on the team upon death.

Capture the Relic - Tank by the flag and just bash the person trying to capture the flag, only time getting the flag works is when someone misses the bash.

Deathmatch - Everyone on the team is built to tank with very low damage but when the entire team focuses one enemy at a time, the team can score kills. Also, just ball the team up around the action, tank everything, combine the very low damage to focus fire and steal kills from others who did 90% of the damage.

We've gone from builds meant to 1vX to builds that Xv1. Tanking is the new Meta.

This has been most 'small-scale' setups in cyro for a while now.. However, I've mostly found that these are used just to 4v1 without a chance of losing rather than to 1vX - cos as soon as X appears, you just see em running away..
This playstyle is the worst.

Joy_Division

I think the problem goes beyond CPs.

I played BGs quite a bit when they came out, but quickly grew bored of them because in the majority of the time, it's disadvantageous to actually fight other players if you want to win. They totally encourage passive play and builds meant to survive rather than kill. Tanking avoiding fights, not dying is the natural meta. CP has just put this into sharper relief and made BGs even more boring and uneventful.

Of course, ESO would be a much better and player friendly game if ZoS removed the CP system entirely. But to make BGs fun, IMHO, they need to design objective based games that encourage fighting and killing other players.

ak_pvp

BGs now are just who can stack the most healers.

ak_pvp

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think the problem goes beyond CPs.

I played BGs quite a bit when they came out, but quickly grew bored of them because in the majority of the time, it's disadvantageous to actually fight other players if you want to win. They totally encourage passive play and builds meant to survive rather than kill. Tanking avoiding fights, not dying is the natural meta. CP has just put this into sharper relief and made BGs even more boring and uneventful.

Of course, ESO would be a much better and player friendly game if ZoS removed the CP system entirely. But to make BGs fun, IMHO, they need to design objective based games that encourage fighting and killing other players.

Starting with the mess of crazyking/domination where you can win by ignoring everyone and stack flipping flags even whilst people try to contest you.

Chaosball is more of the same heal stack camping.

They some how made CTF worse, now its just tanks sitting on spawn bashing. Before you could get a relic, but then your own could be taken resulting in forced fights.

TDM is ok, sigils aren't great. It takes away fighting when a team goes damage godmode for 20s.

Waffennacht

I'm not seeing what is being described in this thread

Rohamad_Ali

We warned them before the went all cp. Tanking should not go on forever in objective based PVP or any PVP . No one should be able to block forever or do anything forever . Infinite blocking is just as bad as infinite sustaine and spamming damage constantly . It takes skill and counter play out of the equation when players don't have to think and just do one thing over and over .

casparian

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think the problem goes beyond CPs.

I played BGs quite a bit when they came out, but quickly grew bored of them because in the majority of the time, it's disadvantageous to actually fight other players if you want to win. They totally encourage passive play and builds meant to survive rather than kill. Tanking avoiding fights, not dying is the natural meta. CP has just put this into sharper relief and made BGs even more boring and uneventful.

Of course, ESO would be a much better and player friendly game if ZoS removed the CP system entirely. But to make BGs fun, IMHO, they need to design objective based games that encourage fighting and killing other players.

This point isn't made often enough in BG threads. Adding CPs to BGs wouldn't be nearly as big a problem if most BG modes were designed in such a way that unkillable tanks/healbots didn't score points or help their team (you know, just like real PVP Cyrodiil). Unfortunately, BG design promotes building to tank instead of building to fight.

Waffennacht

I'm not sure what counts as land grab vs flag games. I'm assuming flag games is relic based formats.

Since the introduction to CP to BGs, based on my experience, the only difference is that my character does what I want him to do better.

My scores are approximately the same, I don't encounter unkillable anythings, I haven't seen any tanks that hold the relic forever. In fact my build seems to do just as well if not better at holding the relic

I post this to just to verify I have now had a chance to experience BGs

Minno

casparian wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think the problem goes beyond CPs.

I played BGs quite a bit when they came out, but quickly grew bored of them because in the majority of the time, it's disadvantageous to actually fight other players if you want to win. They totally encourage passive play and builds meant to survive rather than kill. Tanking avoiding fights, not dying is the natural meta. CP has just put this into sharper relief and made BGs even more boring and uneventful.

Of course, ESO would be a much better and player friendly game if ZoS removed the CP system entirely. But to make BGs fun, IMHO, they need to design objective based games that encourage fighting and killing other players.

This point isn't made often enough in BG threads. Adding CPs to BGs wouldn't be nearly as big a problem if most BG modes were designed in such a way that unkillable tanks/healbots didn't score points or help their team (you know, just like real PVP Cyrodiil). Unfortunately, BG design promotes building to tank instead of building to fight.

Which we saw in nCP BGs. Teams with coordinated tactics and tankier setups ruled in the instances I was in.

CP or nCP the modes of play were too passive; just make it choas ball with DMG that ignores block and deathmatch. Also the pay wall is too high to bring in the population. New maps every new dlc instead of having it locked behind the Morrowind chapter.

casparian

Minno wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think the problem goes beyond CPs.

I played BGs quite a bit when they came out, but quickly grew bored of them because in the majority of the time, it's disadvantageous to actually fight other players if you want to win. They totally encourage passive play and builds meant to survive rather than kill. Tanking avoiding fights, not dying is the natural meta. CP has just put this into sharper relief and made BGs even more boring and uneventful.

Of course, ESO would be a much better and player friendly game if ZoS removed the CP system entirely. But to make BGs fun, IMHO, they need to design objective based games that encourage fighting and killing other players.

This point isn't made often enough in BG threads. Adding CPs to BGs wouldn't be nearly as big a problem if most BG modes were designed in such a way that unkillable tanks/healbots didn't score points or help their team (you know, just like real PVP Cyrodiil). Unfortunately, BG design promotes building to tank instead of building to fight.

Which we saw in nCP BGs. Teams with coordinated tactics and tankier setups ruled in the instances I was in.

CP or nCP the modes of play were too passive; just make it choas ball with DMG that ignores block and deathmatch. Also the pay wall is too high to bring in the population. New maps every new dlc instead of having it locked behind the Morrowind chapter.

I meant to be making that point, but I see now I didn't quite say it explicitly. My point was that tanking is/can be a problem in BGs primarily because of BG design, not because of the presence or absence of CP.

Waffennacht

Mobility + Evasion > Tankiness

exeeter702

casparian wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think the problem goes beyond CPs.

I played BGs quite a bit when they came out, but quickly grew bored of them because in the majority of the time, it's disadvantageous to actually fight other players if you want to win. They totally encourage passive play and builds meant to survive rather than kill. Tanking avoiding fights, not dying is the natural meta. CP has just put this into sharper relief and made BGs even more boring and uneventful.

Of course, ESO would be a much better and player friendly game if ZoS removed the CP system entirely. But to make BGs fun, IMHO, they need to design objective based games that encourage fighting and killing other players.

This point isn't made often enough in BG threads. Adding CPs to BGs wouldn't be nearly as big a problem if most BG modes were designed in such a way that unkillable tanks/healbots didn't score points or help their team (you know, just like real PVP Cyrodiil). Unfortunately, BG design promotes building to tank instead of building to fight.

Its made often enough many many, including myself. Its just that most simply dont listen or they are too busy trying to come up with nonsense in depth strategy guides for various game modes and insist that we simply dont understand the "nuance of objective based pvp". Lol

Not going to name any names of course.

Ragnarock41

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think the problem goes beyond CPs.

I played BGs quite a bit when they came out, but quickly grew bored of them because in the majority of the time, it's disadvantageous to actually fight other players if you want to win. They totally encourage passive play and builds meant to survive rather than kill. Tanking avoiding fights, not dying is the natural meta. CP has just put this into sharper relief and made BGs even more boring and uneventful.

Of course, ESO would be a much better and player friendly game if ZoS removed the CP system entirely. But to make BGs fun, IMHO, they need to design objective based games that encourage fighting and killing other players.

because Its made for *** players in mind.

Beardimus

Agreed that its changed the pace and style of the action, for the worse.

They had something good, sure it could of been better and pop was low, but now that unique pace has been lost.

I hope @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom take note.

As for the comments around kill.based objectives I disagree. Current format is good, just needs CP removing and better Pop (make free to all)

Domander

I see a lot of tanks that do a lot of damage, which is worse balance wise.

dpencil1

Since CP was added, I've dropped my traditional curse/wrath/frags PvP build for the same pet build I use in PvE. Having the Scamp, Matriarch, and Daedroth (from Maw of the Infernal), I've actually been able to go toe to toe with very tanky characters and burn them down. They get hit by the 18% damage increase from Vuln/Exploiter while taking constant damage from Liquid Lightning, Blockade of Storms, Familiar Pulse, Matriarch Zap, Maw's attacks, (all buffed by Daedric Prey) and my heavy lightning attack...and I can throw out Thunderous Rage if I need to as well. The funny thing is, many of them are so used to being invincible they don't even bother to move out of any of my ground based stuff. They just sit there and after a few seconds realize they are actually starting to die, at which point they panic and either run away or die to the sudden explosions of Daedric Prey and Endless Fury. It's great for area denial such as defending a relic, holding a flag, or just nuking a ball of people fighting in deathmatch. Doesn't work very well for Chaosball though. That game mode is hopelessly broken in favor of mobile tanks.

Derra

I find CPs to be a vast improvement to bgs.

They still suffer from premade vs pug and no competence based matchmaking (aka rating) though - which is just a design flaw.

Tyrion87

I tried it once and had terrible experience. Even more terrible than in Cyrodiil since in BGs there are less people that have to deal with such tanky/shield stacking players. Since then I haven't come back and don't intend to. For me CPs killed BGs for good.

And the recent in-game pop-up that was advertising CP-BGs and the new mode was a proof that BGs are not in a good condition now.

Yesterday I queued for both Vivec and Sotha Sil since in both campaigns there was a rather long queue (for Sotha Sil even longer!). At first I managed to jump into Vivec and the first 10 min there reminded me of how much CPs changed PvP and how much for worse. Unkillable builds can't kill other players, but they constantly kill fun and pleasure of PvPing. After a while, when I got a prompt to get into Sotha Sil, I agreed immediately and my gaming experience there was much more fun. Then I looked on the numbers in the campaigns window indicating how many of my guildies and friends chose both of these campaigns as their home. Numbers were clear: nowdays more players are interested in playing in non-CP Cyrodiil. Thus, introducing CPs into BGs was nothing but a shot in the foot.

Maulkin

Derra wrote: »

I find CPs to be a vast improvement to bgs.

They still suffer from premade vs pug and no competence based matchmaking (aka rating) though - which is just a design flaw.

Agreed, but I think what frustrates people is not others being in a premade.. but playing very much like one. And what I mean by that is having a team composition specific for 4-man BGs (like MagPlar, StamDen, StamBlade, MagSorc) that combines tankiness with burst damage and then running around like a ball group calling out single targets. You will basically win every game mode bar perhaps Domination.

You can be in a premade with a more relaxed yolo attitude, where everyone brings whatever they fancy playing that day and you play a bit more split up rather than balling. Where despite being a premade you bring an open world/solo build and pick some 1v1 or 1v2 fights whenever you can, to test yourself.

I just think some people can get a bit too butthurt when they lose a game or die a couple of times. So they choose to play in a way that is definitely more efficient in terms of winning, but undoubtedly less fun too. That's not directed at you, btw.

Beardimus

^ this is an OK assumption, but as the pop is quite limited when you see the same pool of guys in the same team doing the stomping, and generally they are then by default top of the leaderboards its clear 'pro' premades are doing just that

rimmidimdim

You need a mercenary bg's mode. This means everyone is solo and grouping is random. That's what it needs. Do it. Cheers.

Beardimus

Agreed.

Also add a private / guild only queue for private matches

wheem_ESO

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I find CPs to be a vast improvement to bgs.

They still suffer from premade vs pug and no competence based matchmaking (aka rating) though - which is just a design flaw.

Agreed, but I think what frustrates people is not others being in a premade.. but playing very much like one. And what I mean by that is having a team composition specific for 4-man BGs (like MagPlar, StamDen, StamBlade, MagSorc) that combines tankiness with burst damage and then running around like a ball group calling out single targets. You will basically win every game mode bar perhaps Domination.

You can be in a premade with a more relaxed yolo attitude, where everyone brings whatever they fancy playing that day and you play a bit more split up rather than balling. Where despite being a premade you bring an open world/solo build and pick some 1v1 or 1v2 fights whenever you can, to test yourself.

I just think some people can get a bit too butthurt when they lose a game or die a couple of times. So they choose to play in a way that is definitely more efficient in terms of winning, but undoubtedly less fun too. That's not directed at you, btw.

I don't understand how any of these premades actually have fun "pug stomping" over and over.

Waffennacht

.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I find CPs to be a vast improvement to bgs.

They still suffer from premade vs pug and no competence based matchmaking (aka rating) though - which is just a design flaw.

Agreed, but I think what frustrates people is not others being in a premade.. but playing very much like one. And what I mean by that is having a team composition specific for 4-man BGs (like MagPlar, StamDen, StamBlade, MagSorc) that combines tankiness with burst damage and then running around like a ball group calling out single targets. You will basically win every game mode bar perhaps Domination.

You can be in a premade with a more relaxed yolo attitude, where everyone brings whatever they fancy playing that day and you play a bit more split up rather than balling. Where despite being a premade you bring an open world/solo build and pick some 1v1 or 1v2 fights whenever you can, to test yourself.

I just think some people can get a bit too butthurt when they lose a game or die a couple of times. So they choose to play in a way that is definitely more efficient in terms of winning, but undoubtedly less fun too. That's not directed at you, btw.

I don't understand how any of these premades actually have fun "pug stomping" over and over.

Your leaderboard score is directly your point score per match, the best way to shoot up the board is pug stomping over and over

Derra

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I find CPs to be a vast improvement to bgs.

They still suffer from premade vs pug and no competence based matchmaking (aka rating) though - which is just a design flaw.

Agreed, but I think what frustrates people is not others being in a premade.. but playing very much like one. And what I mean by that is having a team composition specific for 4-man BGs (like MagPlar, StamDen, StamBlade, MagSorc) that combines tankiness with burst damage and then running around like a ball group calling out single targets. You will basically win every game mode bar perhaps Domination.

You can be in a premade with a more relaxed yolo attitude, where everyone brings whatever they fancy playing that day and you play a bit more split up rather than balling. Where despite being a premade you bring an open world/solo build and pick some 1v1 or 1v2 fights whenever you can, to test yourself.

I just think some people can get a bit too butthurt when they lose a game or die a couple of times. So they choose to play in a way that is definitely more efficient in terms of winning, but undoubtedly less fun too. That's not directed at you, btw.

I haven´t take that as directed towards me as i´ve not played with anything else than my solo build nor have i queued with more than a duo since CPs got changed.

I can hardly blame someone for placing fun in winning though. However i don´t understand people queuing with 4 man groups for bgs currently as that basically eliminates the chance of loosing ever.
I don´t find winning fun when the possibility of loosing is nonexistant.

olsborg

Its the meta in cyrodiil. Tanky builds everywhere, was only a matter of time before bg got the same meta. Sadly.

HEBREWHAMMERRR

It’s not like we didn’t tell them months in advance of this inevitable evolution...the last thing that was actually enjoyable in this game has basically been ruined by the exact PvP that BGs were a safe haven from. Really unfortunate that they’re running off so many of their day one players with *** poor changes and failure to actually listen to their community.

Beardimus

Its a huge frustration, we need to keep the threads alive so we are heard!