The Frost Staff experience

Feanor

Looting the final vMA Chest yesterday I got a frost staff. Nirnhoned. This led me to thinking about how misdesigned the weapon currently is and to plead to ZOS once more to change it. Now, ice staves were never great at any point in the game. There were some PvP builds utilizing them along with the Winterborn set, but that's about it.

Apparently ZOS saw this in their data and thought about changing the weapon. To the surprise of everyone they made it into a tanking weapon by changing the Ancient Knowledge passive in the Destruction Staff skill line. The result is that the weapon - which wasn't a great DPS choice before - isn't a good choice for tanking now either. It even isn't if you think of it as an easy entry into tanking for someone who hasn't leveled the Sword & Shield skill line yet.

What do Frost staves offer?

• Access to the chilled status effect
• Blocking with magicka as primary resource instead of stamina
• A cost free taunt with a fully charged heavy attack
• 15% block cost reduction

What are the disadvantages of frost staves?

• Low base damage (if you want to use it as DPS weapon)
• Chilled is one of the weaker status effects as it only applies minor maim, concussed rules all because of the exploiter CP passive
• If you want to tank, the taunt isn't easy to handle as you have to drop block to charge the heavy attack fully
• No access to Major Heroism in the destruction staff skill line (no Heroic Slash)
• Magicka is often also needed for utility spells
• Access to Major Fracture and Major Breach takes up another precious bar slot as you need to slot Elemental Drain (Pierce Armour taunts and applies the debuffs in one single skill)

If you compare S&B and the frost tanking it's glaringly obvious that the former was designed with tanking in mind and the latter is a half finished concept. Now I don't say that you can't make it work as a frost tank with a hybrid or something. Sure you can. But if you can you'd be an even greater tank utilizing S&B. The synergies of S&B are just so much better.

My suggestion is to drop the frost tanking idea altogether and instead change ice staves into a viable DPS choice. That would also help solve the issue with Warden DPS which is lacking still months after launch. One start would be to do the following:

• Increase the light and heavy attack speed of the staff attacks. As they are now they are incredibly slow and clumsy.
• Change the Ancient Knowledge passive to grant Minor Beserk to Frost Staves, increasing damage by 8%.
• Change Wardens Bird of Prey to grant Minor Force, increasing crit bonus damage by 8%
• The chilled status effect increases critical damage rating by 2191 instead of minor maim

The problem with frost stave tanking is that tanking is more than holding Aggro and blocking. In the current state frost staves are not a good choice either way.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel

Banana

If ya decon it. Ya might get a potent nirn

Shadzilla

Classic ZOS wisdom and intelligence.


ZOS staff members - "Sooooo ice staves have been trash for the entire games existence... Should we do anything?"

Wrobel - "Uhhhh, yea lets convert it into a tanking weapon, that will get'm!"

ZOS staff members - "Ahahaahahah nice one Eric, that one will get'm big time!"

Random employee - "Eric do you ever get tired of trolling the entire games population? Do you think you will ever stop?"

Wrobel - "Sure... I will stop... Right after we fix lag in cyro! Ahahahahaha" *mic drop*

*High fives and hysterical laughing all throughout the office*

victoriana-blue

I don't double-bar ice staff tank so I can't speak to that, but I enjoy having a second bar weapon when I tank four-person content. (And until Morrowind I was doing trials and vet DSA with that tank, so you can nip that ~dungeons so easy~ right in the bud.) The secondary resource for block can be lifesaving in situations with lots of mobs - e.g. the trolls in Sanctum Ophidia - where you can't just "strategically drop block."

Some other advantages of ice staffs over sword & board:
- elemental blockade is a nice aoe dot to open with for a multi-enemy soft taunt, with aoe minor maim + slow instead of having to waste a slot on low slash;
- elemental drain for magicka return because no way are the dps going to slot it;
- the ranged interrupt on crushing shock is awesome in places like CoS, MoL, and BF because very few dps take the interrupt morphs (venom arrow or crushing shock) and an interrupt from across the room can save a group
- if your group barely needs a tank, eye of the storm is a nice way to add damage (since you're close to everything anyway)

If you double-bar sword and board, you need to rely on sorc skills, equilibrium, DK ultimate, or regen to get back magicka to apply class skills (talons, blur, healing path, whatever); staff heavies really help. Maybe if you're a warhorn dispenser then heroic slash will be useful, but I get enough ult regen even without heroism that I'm faster than a warhorn rotation.

You don't have to enjoy frost staff tanking, but it has more benefits than you're giving it credit for.

Qbiken

I find the minor maim from frost staff very useful in PvP, where I can more or less debuff an entire group if I manage to apply the chilled effect to them (I´ve tried a support build where the purpose is to slow down people we chase or that are chasing us). But valid/good suggestions however, ice-staff in general needs some changes and making post like this might get ZOS to rethink the whole ice-staff tanking thing and change it a bit

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Now I agree that they need to give ice staffs something, like going full tank or back to a DPS option but the DPS options you have listed are bad ideas, minor berzerk is a waste, the healer ought to be running combat prayer, minor force is in the game already, in trap beast and it is 10% CHD, not 8%. You also want an easily available debuff to Grant you 10% crit, that is insane. Maybe 3% but even then. Now there have been some great ideas posted in similar threads as this but these are just bad.

Feanor

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Now I agree that they need to give ice staffs something, like going full tank or back to a DPS option but the DPS options you have listed are bad ideas, minor berzerk is a waste, the healer ought to be running combat prayer, minor force is in the game already, in trap beast and it is 10% CHD, not 8%. You also want an easily available debuff to Grant you 10% crit, that is insane. Maybe 3% but even then. Now there have been some great ideas posted in similar threads as this but these are just bad.

The suggestions also take solo play into account. In an optimized group setup many skills are irrelevant.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

You can light attack 99% of everything in solo play to death once you understand how the game works, so it is really doesn't matter.

Feanor

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

You can light attack 99% of everything in solo play to death once you understand how the game works, so it is really doesn't matter.

With that attitude we could abandon any changes except for trials and PvP.

Jade1986

Just shut up about this, some of us actually really enjoy frost tanking, have sunk a lot of time into making viable frost tank builds with frost staves, and there are more than enough dps lines in this game, the last thing we need is another. It could def be approved upon, but it does NOT need to be changed into a dps line.

" I dont like frost tanking so they should abandon it"

Well I dont like snb tanking, and I wish they would make it dps viable, but you dont see me making threads constantly demanding they change it to dps.

People have done vet trials no issue as a frost tank, just deal with it.

Porter_H

Frost staff on the back bar while leveling a tank is a lot of fun. It's great when you get a low dps group. Inner Fire (or the morphs) on that bar is used more than the heavy attack taunt then. Not having to constantly weapon swap to block is good. Even if I'm not using the staff much, I'll start pulls with Elemental Blockade for quick agro and to slow mobs.

I'm all for buffing frost staff for tanking though!

LMar

I too often slot 1H&shield on front bar and frost staff on back bar on my tank. It helps me regen stamina while blocking on frost staff, and actually gain magicka while taunting far away mobs to use my talons when they come to me (or being pulled by chains).

Also in pvp it helps juggle those pesky zergs when stamina runs out or suddenly destro staff from a stamina tank when the enemy least expects it. Though, to be frank, I haven't utilised it for truly demanding content except BGs but it helps out a lot there with tanking. And yes I often can't kill a person in BGs who knows what he is doing on my own, but hey I can hold them down while the rest of my group finishes them off.

Sure, the 1H&S is far superior but frost tanking has its perks XD

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Feanor


I didn't say it was a problem that it was so easy, I was new at one point and had no idea what I was doing, before there was one tamerial and before all mobs were the same, so I understand what it means to be new and need an easy time and that is what the overland content is for, you can really get away with so much. But you need to focus on high level play, this is where skills matter more and every percent of Damage, healing and Damage reduction matters, so you cant balance around a playstyle that you can literally do anything with.

So like I said, I want something to be useful out of the ice staff, it is in the game and I would like to use it somewhere in my builds, I have 10 toons, every class mag build uses the same fire/lightning, if for no other reason then for the one you gave, that vMA drops it and it is useless.

Porter_H

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Feanor


I didn't say it was a problem that it was so easy, I was new at one point and had no idea what I was doing, before there was one tamerial and before all mobs were the same, so I understand what it means to be new and need an easy time and that is what the overland content is for, you can really get away with so much. But you need to focus on high level play, this is where skills matter more and every percent of Damage, healing and Damage reduction matters, so you cant balance around a playstyle that you can literally do anything with.

So like I said, I want something to be useful out of the ice staff, it is in the game and I would like to use it somewhere in my builds, I have 10 toons, every class mag build uses the same fire/lightning, if for no other reason then for the one you gave, that vMA drops it and it is useless.

I understand the frustration but there is already a shortage of tanks. Taking something away that some find fun isn't the answer.

The best solution would be to put a different passive in the destruction staff skill line.
First rank: Any destruction staff heavy attack taunts and blocking costs magicka.
2nd rank: Reduce cost of blocking X% and increase amount blocked by X% when using a destruction staff.

It would be optional and give tanks access to more options too. Double S/B is not fun. Dps would have frost staff then too.

Dapper Dinosaur

In addition to everything you said, using a staff instead of a sword and shield renders you unable to run 5/5/2. To run the ice staff you have to give up a 5pc set bonus.

Jade1986

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

In addition to everything you said, using a staff instead of a sword and shield renders you unable to run 5/5/2. To run the ice staff you have to give up a 5pc set bonus.

No you don't. 2 x 5 piece and an asylum / master weapon. Its the same thing you do on bow bow builds. It isn't that big of a deal.

isailandshootub17_ESO

Immunity to stuns and knock-downs while channeling a heavy attack with frost staff might make it a bit more attractive. That would help with the difficulty of getting off a full heavy attack in order to taunt. Might even help frost staff to be an option for PvP.

Apache_Kid

I wish they would re-work it as a DPS option. Being a frost-mage damage dealer would be exciting.

Thannazzar

Either make all staff powers with a frost staff taunt or put taunt in light attack for frost staves.

victoriana-blue

isailandshootub17_ESO wrote: »

Immunity to stuns and knock-downs while channeling a heavy attack with frost staff might make it a bit more attractive. That would help with the difficulty of getting off a full heavy attack in order to taunt. Might even help frost staff to be an option for PvP.

I'm all for this, and increasing the speed of frost heavy attacks again. The incoming damage isn't a problem, it's the incoming heavies/stuns/knock downs, especially in places where you're facing more than one heavy-hitter at a time.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Apache_Kid wrote: »

I wish they would re-work it as a DPS option. Being a frost-mage damage dealer would be exciting.

I actually had a Frost mage. A Nightblade with damage and CCs for days. I liked the snares frost staff gave but with the 8% bonus to single target or AoE and the fact that heavy frost attacks taunt it’s just not a good DPS Weapon.

I would love to support ice tanking but it’s not really supported. It should be it’s own skill line.

PS4_ZeColmeia

As a person that uses both on the same character, I personally think its fine. If you are actually a mage vs a tank with a lil higher magicka resource it's a great off resource ability and not having to slot a taunt frees you up to slot a debuff skill like mark target or other skills that work great for your build.

Point being, you have a skill line that is dedicated to tanking and a set that allows for tanking. I suppose next the issue will be that you have higher resources and armor with s&b vs staff... oh wait.

mb10

There's people on the forums who would put up a case for a defending trait bow as a viable option to tank lmao don't listen to this nonsense.

I agree with OP, the frost staff should be utilised as a DPS option like all other TES games. I like the idea of the light and heavy attacks being quicker.
I slightly disagree with minor berserk but I think something else could be used such as minor fracture.

The tank idea really don't seem half hearted and incomplete. It was a good idea I suppose but I think that should have been a whole defensive skill like for that type of staff with its own unique passives.

xSkullfox

...agree with OP
but its like...

bhagwad

I once got a 29k health frost "tank" in light armor for vet Falkreath Hold.

Yeah, you read that right And he was suuuper offended when I told him it might not be enough for this particular vet dungeon. He died at both starting minotaurs, as well as the first boss.

I can understand if you don't know the dungeon and underestimated the difficulty. But why get offended when someone points something out? Surely you know full well that you're not a "traditional" tank and that comes with some trade offs? There is some content where a tank is a tank is a tank. Not a dps, not a hybrid, but a full blown "I can get hit over and over and not die", tank.

code65536

There are things about frost staff tanking that aren't ideal... but it's actually really useful.

If you're tanking vHoF or off-tanking vAS, a frost staff back bar is extremely useful.

1. I don't put any points into the Tri-Focus passive. This means that I'm still blocking with stamina, and my heavy attacks don't apply taunt.
2. Heavy-attack-to-taunt is really a red herring. I think it's cumbersome, and I don't like it. But that doesn't make frost tanking useless. If you want to taunt from your frost bar, just use Inner Fire. It's instant, block-castable, and the lack of a cast channel means that you're more likely to hit the intended target instead of a bystander.
3. So why run a frost bar? Crushing Shock. An absolute must-have in vHoF, particularly for the main tank on the second boss because he has a nasty tendency to do his channel right after he ports away from you. Crushing Shock on a tank is also mandatory in vAS +2 and +1 Llothis. And now that I'm running an Asylum ice staff, I suppose I could even contribute to Concussion uptime.
4. In short, what the frost tanking gives me is a ranged interrupt on a bar that has blocking passives. The heavy-attack taunt thing? Meh. I just pretend it doesn't exist.

PlagueSD

S&B on front bar for fights that are tank and spank. Frost staff on back bar for fights that require a lot of moving/dodging/break-free. I love frost staff for tanking. Allows me to use Magica for blocking, which I can EASILY regen with heavy attacks (and get a damage shield and taunt as a bonus). Frost staff tanking on Lord Warden make this fight STUPID easy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_P0pPk6naM

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

Making the frost staff a DPS-utility is a good idea but not in the way suggested by op, How about making frost staff characters to be desirable in trials.

- wall of elements (on frost staff) to grant "minor breach" as the re is only 1 spell that grants this defuff and its available only to templars.\

- Change the Ancient Knowledge passive to give 8% to DOTs (where as flame has 8% to single target spells and shock had 8% to AOEs)

-Chilled status effect should also give minor vulnerability (Increase damage taken by 8%)

SirMewser

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

Making the frost staff a DPS-utility is a good idea but not in the way suggested by op, How about making frost staff characters to be desirable in trials.

- wall of elements (on frost staff) to grant "minor breach" as the re is only 1 spell that grants this defuff and its available only to templars.\

- Change the Ancient Knowledge passive to give 8% to DOTs (where as flame has 8% to single target spells and shock had 8% to AOEs)

-Chilled status effect should also give minor vulnerability (Increase damage taken by 8%)

Point 1/ A source of minor breach would be nice indeed, maybe not on wall of elements.
Point 2/ I concur, 8% DoT bonus sounds reasonable and fitting!
Point 3/ Another source of vulnerability would be inconsequential especially in groups with a Sorcerer where 70%+ uptime isn't difficult.

Inarre

Jade1986

Apache_Kid wrote: »

I wish they would re-work it as a DPS option. Being a frost-mage damage dealer would be exciting.

I hope they dont, thre are ENOUGH dps options. and literally only 2 tanking options.