oticks

zyk

Are ruining this game. 90% of keep fights completely suck because they are 1-5 defenders vs a zerg. Players will race to a flagged enemy keep, but will only rarely show up to defend.

Do you not see this, @ZOS_BrianWheeler ?

Crown

@zyk Without O-Ticks how will bad players farm AP? They can make 60k AP / hour just cycling resources no matter how many of them are in group..

VaranisArano

To be fair, its definitely easier to participate in a keep capture than it is to get to a keep under attack in time if the attackers know what they are doing.

I mean, consider an organized raid that is definitely doing their own thing. Said raid is heading for an objective when the call goes out in zone chat " HOME KEEP UNDER ATTACK!!!! 20/20!!!" Or CyroHUD lights up with siege on the home keep, which the raid leads probably saw anyway.

The raid lead now has to decide "Is this objective worth losing a home keep over? Will the enemy being at our home keep better my chances of taking this objective? Are we going to lose our scrolls if they take that home keep? Are there other groups who can deal with the enemy? Is there enough time for me to turn around/death port with my group back to the gates and ride out to defend the home keep (which totally flagged in the meantime because 20/20 siege)"

More times than not, that organized raid proceeds to its original objective, correctly assuming that they can take their original objective, port to the home gates, ride out and recapture the home keep before the scrolls or the score are at risk.


Now, that's not every situation, but getting a solid defense together in a keep generally means that either:

• Defenders got sufficient warning from zone to port in before the keep flagged
• Organized defenders were already in the keep
• Organized defenders were nearby and able to ride back to the keep
• The flagged keep is important enough to the faction at that moment that everyone has nothing better to do than swarm to its defense

So I suspect that it has little to do with the almighty O-tick and everything to do with players who actively PVP rarely sitting around in keeps waiting for enemy raids to knock on the front door.

Curragraigue

zyk wrote: »

Are ruining this game. 90% of keep fights completely suck because they are 1-5 defenders vs a zerg. Players will race to a flagged enemy keep, but will only rarely show up to defend.

Do you not see this, @ZOS_BrianWheeler ?

Why defend? Keep gets flipped then you come back for more AP to flip it back than defending it.

Although not having all the lag from large defence going on is nice, seems like it is a new feature to combat lag

IxSTALKERxI

Everyone on the alliance should lose 5k AP if they lose a keep on the map lmao. 10k if they lose a scroll. They can all be in debt to Grand Warlord Sorcalin for stacking inside nikel while EP takes the scrolls with 0 defense.

geonsocal

BRING BACK THE MIGHTY GOD D-TICK!!!

Feanor

When D-Ticks were greater than O-Ticks people complained that players were waiting on the Wall for the tick. Now people complain that players don’t defend.

The real issue that connects these two is that AP is the only thing of worth in Cyrodiil because the other rewards suck so much. This is especially true now that the transmutation geodes are bound to gaining AP as well.

You can tamper with the ticks all you want - in the end change will only come if activities other than gaining AP are a worthwhile endeavor.

zyk

Feanor wrote: »

You can tamper with the ticks all you want - in the end change will only come if activities other than gaining AP are a worthwhile endeavor.

No, there's a huge difference. In the old system, the size of AP ticks was almost entirely based on the results of combat. Before the change, a 5k tick was actually quite nice. Now players are awarded far more for zerging an undefended keep. And they do. Frequently.

VaranisArano wrote: »

So I suspect that it has little to do with the almighty O-tick and everything to do with players who actively PVP rarely sitting around in keeps waiting for enemy raids to knock on the front door.

Did you play AvA before the change? Because we have years of history that contradicts this. Before the change, players would race to defend in hopes of a decent fight that would result in good AP earnings. Then, groups took objectives for two main reasons: map control and/or to hold it for as long as possible to earn AP from combat and also hopefully nice nice dticks. Now, it is normal for an objective to be vacated almost immediately after being taken. Some groups are completely shameless about it like the special K group of EP who will spend hours only taking undefended resources for AP gain.

Nice oticks were a thing as well, but only if there was actually PVP.

I don't know a single experienced PVP player who prefers the current system because we all want good fights. Even though many have a different definition of what a good fight is, it's not pvdoor.

Turelus

I hate to break it to you OP, but PvP has been that way since launch and it has nothing to do with offensive AP rewards.

It's about players want to fight, and going where the map tells them something is happening.

zyk

Turelus wrote: »

I hate to break it to you OP, but PvP has been that way since launch and it has nothing to do with offensive AP rewards.

It's about players want to fight, and going where the map tells them something is happening.

It wasn't at all like it is right now. It could not be. Because then, AP was earned from the death of players, not NPCs.

Turelus

zyk wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I hate to break it to you OP, but PvP has been that way since launch and it has nothing to do with offensive AP rewards.

It's about players want to fight, and going where the map tells them something is happening.

It wasn't at all like it is right now. It could not be. Because then, AP was earned from the death of players, not NPCs.

And so, when a keep was flagged as attacked or little crossed swords appeared the entire of every faction turned up to find their AP.

zyk

Turelus wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I hate to break it to you OP, but PvP has been that way since launch and it has nothing to do with offensive AP rewards.

It's about players want to fight, and going where the map tells them something is happening.

It wasn't at all like it is right now. It could not be. Because then, AP was earned from the death of players, not NPCs.

And so, when a keep was flagged as attacked or little crossed swords appeared the entire of every faction turned up to find their AP.

The point is that now, often, attackers show up, but defenders do not.

The old system had problems, but it was not at all like it is today. If a group took a keep, it was for a reason other than a big otick from fighting NPCs.

Turelus

zyk wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I hate to break it to you OP, but PvP has been that way since launch and it has nothing to do with offensive AP rewards.

It's about players want to fight, and going where the map tells them something is happening.

It wasn't at all like it is right now. It could not be. Because then, AP was earned from the death of players, not NPCs.

And so, when a keep was flagged as attacked or little crossed swords appeared the entire of every faction turned up to find their AP.

The point is that now, often, attackers show up, but defenders do not.

What is your faction doing during this time? Is your faction balanced in numbers? What hours is this happening at?

I can't seriously believe that rewarding AP for capturing objectives has made no one want to defend any keeps or PvP other players.

zyk

Turelus wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I hate to break it to you OP, but PvP has been that way since launch and it has nothing to do with offensive AP rewards.

It's about players want to fight, and going where the map tells them something is happening.

It wasn't at all like it is right now. It could not be. Because then, AP was earned from the death of players, not NPCs.

And so, when a keep was flagged as attacked or little crossed swords appeared the entire of every faction turned up to find their AP.

The point is that now, often, attackers show up, but defenders do not.

What is your faction doing during this time? Is your faction balanced in numbers? What hours is this happening at?

I can't seriously believe that rewarding AP for capturing objectives has made no one want to defend any keeps or PvP other players.

Why not? This is what happens on NA, and I've heard plenty of complaints about it from EU. It is more profitable for bad players to capture undefended resources or zerg down keeps than it is to fight. Oticks that don't involve any PVP at all are usually far larger than dticks from a decent fight.

On NA, we have groups that do this non-stop. Sometimes another opposition group will follow them to pvdoor what they've taken. A good keep fight is now the exception and not the rule. So much time is spent taking back undefended objectives. It's bad for PVP.

VaranisArano

zyk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So I suspect that it has little to do with the almighty O-tick and everything to do with players who actively PVP rarely sitting around in keeps waiting for enemy raids to knock on the front door.

Did you play AvA before the change? Because we have years of history that contradicts this. Before the change, players would race to defend in hopes of a decent fight that would result in good AP earnings. Then, groups took objectives for two main reasons: map control and/or to hold it for as long as possible to earn AP from combat and also hopefully nice nice dticks. Now, it is normal for an objective to be vacated almost immediately after being taken. Some groups are completely shameless about it like the special K group of EP who will spend hours only taking undefended resources for AP gain.

Yes, I played AvA before the change. Thanks.

The change certainly made it more beneficial for groups to act offensively, which is not a bad thing in my book. Recall my original example, where a raid decides that they can either ride for the defense and possible fail before the keep falls or they can have their cake and eat it too by capturing their objective and then re-capturing the home keep. Sometimes, its just better tactics to stay on the offensive and pick up the home keeps on your own schedule, not the enemy's.

I think that you are looking at this from the perspective of AvA is all about the fights. Its about fighting other players and having exciting battles and anything that takes away from that, such as diminishing returns for epic keep defenses, is a problem. Which, like, the fights are a big part of AvA. Absolutely players should be encouraged to fight each other in epic battles.

But AvA isn't all about the fights. Its also about strategy and playing the map. For example, if a faction is making a scroll push, I don't have to hole up in a home keep to defend, I can PvDoor their back keeps and force them to leave their scroll push or be cut off. If an emperor is making a last stand in a ring keep, I can force his defenders to come off the ring or risk losing their home keeps. Done right, PvDooring an undefended keep during primetime means that a raid judged their opportunity for aggressive action correctly. I don't have to fight the enemy on their terms - I can make them fight on my terms. And, I get AP for it.

So from a strategic perspective, the changes certainly had an impact in that the increased o-ticks reward offensive tactics where capturing keeps as fast as possible brings the most rewards. Yes, it rewards strategies that use knowledge of the map and the forces at play to get a raid to an undefended keep for the quickest keep takes. Yes, it rewards groups who successfully have their cake and eat it too, capturing their current objective and then recapturing the home keep. It rewards players who force the enemy to fight on their own terms, not meeting the enemy at the time and place the enemy chooses.

If you want more players to defend keeps, I point you back to my list of factors as to what makes for a successful keep defense and make the following suggestions.

• Teach players to read the map so they know where the threats are and can respond before keeps are flagged. For example, I know that if AD flags Cropsford on PC/NA Vivec, I should prepare to defend Drakelowe. If DC is quiet in the north, an attack on KC might be incoming shortly, after which they will leave and attack Farragut. or Arrius. But I know that from experience in playing that campaign and reading the map, which the average PUG may not have.
• Early warnings bring more players into keeps before they flag and more players almost always makes for a better defense. With the speed most attacking groups who know what they are doing can bring to the siege, its better to have more players inside the keep before the siege starts. (If I'm PUGing, I will defend a keep against 15/20 siege if I'm already there, but I'm not going to waste my time by riding to defend that keep against a group that clearly has superior numbers)
• Quick response is key. If the attackers have a lot of siege, players have very little time to port in, and you'll probably only get the few who were standing nearby a transitus shrine. After that, you have to ride, which makes it much harder to set up a good defense. Good defenses happen when there are a lot of players inside or nearby the keeps.
• Coordinate with the organized raids. An organized raid may or may not stop what they were doing in order to defend a keep that suddenly flags, but you've got a much better chance of getting their assistance if the faction defense/offense is coordinating.
• Be clear about why certain objective are important. If you want players to help defend Arrius, Glademist, or Faregyl, tell them why. Players will defend important objectives, so tell them why those objectives are important beyond being of the right color. People will spend hours defending the LAST EMP KEEP because they understand why that's important to their faction.

Keep defenses don't have the AP lures they used too, so if you want epic keep defenses, you'll have to change how you go about getting more players to help defend.

VaranisArano

zyk wrote: »

On NA, we have groups that do this non-stop. Sometimes another opposition group will follow them to pvdoor what they've taken. A good keep fight is now the exception and not the rule. So much time is spent taking back undefended objectives. It's bad for PVP.

When my team does it, my team is making a decision to carry on to our objective, capture it, and then go recapture our home keep. Done right, its double points for our faction plus whatever strategy we carried out by capturing our original objective. Go team!

When the other team does it, they're an opposition group pvdooring what we just took.

Minnesinger

I don´t have nostalgic feelings towards D-ticks. They were as farmable as O-ticks and nothing more is more demoralizing
than guilds that refused to do anything but defend. This current system is far more dynamic and like how the map changes all the time even if you play underdog faction.

Ghostbane

zyk wrote: »

Players will race to a flagged enemy keep, but will only rarely show up to defend.

It is a rock and a hardplace, because before the change, this scenario was the opposite. 90% of the playerbase interested in keeps would flock to the allied keep under attack to defend it, rather than running to the enemy one with little siege on it, unflagged.

NBrookus

Ghostbane wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Players will race to a flagged enemy keep, but will only rarely show up to defend.

It is a rock and a hardplace, because before the change, this scenario was the opposite. 90% of the playerbase interested in keeps would flock to the allied keep under attack to defend it, rather than running to the enemy one with little siege on it, unflagged.

I think there's a possible middle ground that rewards both pvp activities. I don't miss 25AP for a resource -- but the o-ticks are way too high and reward pvdoor versus pvp.

Reverb

I feel like there needs to be a happy medium between the current AP earning structure, and the way it used to be when d-ticks were all important, to the point that people wouldn't leave a keep to defend the rest of the map if there was an impending tick.

I'm not just talking about "the tickening", I mean the way we saw it play out every single day.

So the move to offensive AP gains was good in theory, but was done in a way that encourages PvDoor, and flipping undefended resources. Meanwhile we feel grateful for a 7k tick after spending an hour defending a keep, getting dozens of kills.

I don't know what the right middle-ground is, but I know we're not there.

Ghostbane

Offensive keep ticks should be dropped to the same as outposts again.

Resources.. either that otick gets halved, or they make them more difficult to take.

geonsocal

used to love going afk at outposts...do the laundry, clean the house, do a little fighting, eat dinner - just check in every 9 minutes or so and still earn decent AP without having to mount up and ride anywhere...

okay, maybe that wasn't such a great system after all

VaranisArano

Ghostbane wrote: »

Offensive keep ticks should be dropped to the same as outposts again.

Resources.. either that otick gets halved, or they make them more difficult to take.

You don't solo resources on a magicka toon, do you? Resources do not need even more OP guards. I'm delighted to finally get some AP for my time and effort compared to what it was like before the change.

NBrookus

I think having a base tick (you were there) plus additional AP split among all the people there would help. The fact that 30 people will get 1500+ AP EACH for zerging a resource it part of the problem. The guy/duo/trio taking resources solo does deserve a little more for splitting off from the zerg and contributing score points, plus it takes them much longer to flip the flags.

If it were, for example, 500 for being there and another 1000 split among the people who did some dps/healed dps'ers, you'd seem more small group activity there.

Ghostbane

VaranisArano wrote: »

You don't solo resources on a magicka toon, do you?

Can and do on all 5 classes as magicka.

IxSTALKERxI

Basically O'ticks just need a bit of a nerf. In the past I've suggested reducing them by 50% but this may be too much.
A 33% nerf will be enough.

Outposts, Resources, Towns, Districts: 1000 AP down from 1500 AP
Keeps: 4000 AP down from 6000 AP

At the moment it is possible to average 60k AP / hr from just capturing resources. A good player can average around 60k AP/ hr in kills if they play well. So as it is currently killing NPC's in a zerg earns the same about of AP as someone doing well in pvp combat against players.

With a 33% nerf this will bring AP/hr down to 40k / hr for capturing resources, meaning they now have to earn 20k AP/hr in kills (only one third of the opponents a good player kills) on top of capturing resources in order to compete with them. So it encourages people to have a healthy combination of killing enemies and capturing objectives.

Crispen_Longbow

zyk wrote: »

Are ruining this game. 90% of keep fights completely suck because they are 1-5 defenders vs a zerg. Players will race to a flagged enemy keep, but will only rarely show up to defend.
Do you not see this, @ZOS_BrianWheeler ?

ZOS was headed in the right direction. They tried to influence player behavior, through the AP system, by spreading out fights. The main goal being to try and reduce server lag. They should be commended for their attempt to implement a system to reduce server lag by influencing player behavior.

NBrookus wrote: »

I think having a base tick (you were there) plus additional AP split among all the people there would help. The fact that 30 people will get 1500+ AP EACH for zerging a resource it part of the problem. The guy/duo/trio taking resources solo does deserve a little more for splitting off from the zerg and contributing score points, plus it takes them much longer to flip the flags.

If it were, for example, 500 for being there and another 1000 split among the people who did some dps/healed dps'ers, you'd seem more small group activity there.

Ghostbane wrote: »

Offensive keep ticks should be dropped to the same as outposts again.
Resources.. either that otick gets halved, or they make them more difficult to take.

While the end result of this new system has produced less PVP and more PVdoor to exploit AP gains with a little tweaking it could improve a lot of things in Cryo. The goal should be to find the "Sweet Spot" for each group size and incentivize that type of play with AP rewards.



In the image above...

1. (24) Person Raid (Sweet Spot)
   • Trying to take a Keep defended by 24 - 45 players Maximized AP gains.
2. (12) Person Raid
   • Trying to take a Keep defended by 12 - 24 players Maximized AP gains.
3. (6) Person Small Man
   • Trying to take a Keep/Resource defended by 5 - 14 players Maximized AP gains.
4. (1) Solo Build
   • Trying to take a Keep/Resource defended by 1 - 5 players Maximized AP gains.

To achieve this I believe we need change a few things...

• Increase Castle Captures to 15,000 AP. (Spread out among all that are present)
• Increase AP rewarded for player kills on Keep grounds by 6 times $12,000 AP per kill (Spread out among all that are present only on the Otick is it rewarded)
• keep resource Captures as is but (Spread out among all that are present)
• Increase AP rewarded for player kills in resource range to $4,000 per kill (Spread out among all that are present only on the Otick is it rewarded)
• Put a Maximum Cap on the Otick per player to reduce AP exploiting.

With these changes above this would do a few things...

• A raid of 24 players pvdooring an undefended keep would net each player an Otick of $625 AP for their effort.
  Or
• That same raid could go take a defended keep from 24-40 players and net an Otick in the range of $12K - $23K per player.

• A small man group of 4 could go and pvdoor a resource for $375 AP per player for their effort.
  Or
• That same small man could go and take a resource defended by 8 - 12 players and make $8K -$12K per Otick

.

It is a great tactic to go behind enemy lines and take a home-keep from them. This forces defenders off the front line to engage with the back-line. This system would support smaller groups breaking off and do that very thing and still make decent/great AP for a keep capture. 4 players PVdooring a back keep would still be rewarded $3,750 for their effort. Now if those same 4 were to encounter 5 defenders and end up taking the keep and killing all 5 players they would be rewarded $18,750 Otick for their effort.

This system would try and reward all types of play styles and reinforce using the right number of people for the objective at hand.


TL:DR

• Increase Castle Captures to 15,000 AP. (Spread out among all that are present)
• Increase AP rewarded for player kills on Keep grounds by 6 times $12,000 AP per kill (Spread out among all that are present only on the Otick is it rewarded)
• keep resource Captures as is but (Spread out among all that are present)
• Increase AP rewarded for player kills in resource range to $4,000 per kill (Spread out among all that are present only on the Otick is it rewarded)
• Put a Maximum Cap on the Otick per player to reduce AP exploiting.

Crewt

@Crown Would you please make a new spreadsheet that shows variable options per the idea of @Crispen_Longbow above?

Feanor

Still doesn't solve the issue as long as AP remains the only thing worth going for.

Beardimus

geonsocal wrote: »

BRING BACK THE MIGHTY GOD D-TICK!!!

It's needed. Those epic battles defending for an hour and getting a juicy 40-50k AP hit. Going bed you a reason to hold fast

Lightingale

Crewt wrote: »

@Crown Would you please make a new spreadsheet that shows variable options per the idea of @Crispen_Longbow above?

@Crewt Crown isn't able to post on the forums anymore, and due to forum rules (see the section on Discussing Disciplinary Actions) I am not able to talk about the issue. You can chat with him on Discord here: http://discord.gg/mrAUfGh