Nerevar's projection in Clockwork City should be wearing different armor

TheRimOfTheSky

At the Elegiac Replication in the Clockwork City, a projection of Nerevar, one of the most important people in Dunmer history, is seen. He currently wears "Ancient Elven" armor (identical to Maormer and Ayleid armor), as seen here:




As you can probably tell, it doesn't look very good on him. Those of you familiar with Nerevar would know that he was a badass who united every Chimer tribe, house, and clan, along with their enemies the Dwemer, to band together and fight the Nords. He was practically king (Hortator) of the entire province, which has never been accomplished since (until your player in TES III does it). Him wearing the same armor that is worn by your "average Joe" Maormer doesn't portray him very well in this regard, nor do him justice. Since Divayth Fyr was given completely new armor between Updates 14 and 16, I do hope that its possible Nerevar's is also changed.

Here are some alternatives:


This is a slight variation of standard Dunmer heavy armor. The guy wearing it is Chimer, the same as Nerevar, so it would make sense for him to wear it.



Militant Ordinator armor (seen here) was added in Update 14 alongside the Morrowind chapter. In the male armor version, the helmet worn is actually based off of Nerevar's face (source), so it's not too far-fetched that the Ordinators could have also based their armor on his.


The "Coat of Red Mountain" is (to my knowledge) a unique style from Vvardenfell. Given that Nerevar died at Red Mountain, he could be wearing a heavy armor version of this style.

A number of people in the lore community have shown dissatisfaction with Nerevar's current armor (Example), his helmet being the most out-of-place part. If possible, it would be nice that Nerevar got his own custom armor, like Divayth did. Its understandable if this isn't an option, but given that Divayth's unique armor will soon be sold as a Crown Store costume, ZOS could also do the same with Nerevar's unique outfit.

Also, Nerevar's sword in the hologram should be Trueflame, which was already established as being his legendary sword. In 2014, there was once a replica of it that people could find, but has since been removed. Here's the model, which can just be re-used for Nerevar:

Anru

Agreed. The Chimer are so radically different from the Ayleids and Maormer, especially by Nerevar's time period. Nerevar should use a native motif. Personally I like Red Mountain the best for him, but it might be a little too Ashlandery for our friend the Hortator.

JarlUlfric

@Anru Most of the depictions of him in the concept art for Morrowind have him wearing some very tribal looking armors, +1 for the Ashlander / Red Mountain gear.

Jim_Pipp

I'm kind of amazed at how much TheRimOfTheSky knows about rare armor styles!

It certainly sounds like the OP has thought through Nerevar's style far more than the game developer who dressed this iconic character. By thinking about what existing (in-game) assets could be used instead the OP may even know more about the game than the developer!

I'm really tempted to tag some zos employee's because this seems like an easy improvement.

Azurya

it is a shame to have him wear that armour!

Legoless

TheRimOfTheSky wrote: »

Also, Nerevar's sword in the hologram should be Trueflame, which was already established as being his legendary sword. In 2014, there was once a replica of it that people could find, but has since been removed. Here's the model, which can just be re-used for Nerevar:

This. We already have the model, why not use it?

Dystopia2020

King Dynar has the same, but he IS an Ayleid so ...yea. This is really sloppy and should be fixed.

Sotha_Sil

I am usually not that guy caring about some little details but it should be changed. It does not make any sense wearing that maormer armor.

Vaoh

No no no this is wrong. Fix this ZOS! So much lore has already been established for Nerevar, his armor/weapons, etc and you’ve given him Anceint Elf gear.

Trainwiz

Nerevar needs at minimum a mer mohawk (merhawk) that looks like it can cut through solid steel.

Cinbri

1. He should not wear ancient elf style for sure. Since he was Hortator - something like bone of Redoran/Hlaalu or Ashlander styles. He cant wear ordinator or dunmer style coz both represents Tribunal that came to live after their betrayal of Nerevar.
2. Nerevar was chimer like rest of tribunes. He should be as tall as them.
P.S.: I love how literally everything surrounding Nerevar in CWC update hinting that Tribunal backstabbed him.

dodgehopper_ESO

Why not wear a warrior's soft-serve icecream-swirl haircut?

josephus41198

Agree, this needs to be changed.

Aliyavana

Agreed.
Edit: accidental necro. I didn't check the date.

Snowstrider

Thats really lame and lazy of ZOS to just give him a generic ancient elf look when there is tons of stuff they could have done with him.

Just look at the ordinators helmet and you got his head.

TelvanniWizard

Totally agree, should be changed.

Rainfrog

Completley agree. ZOS should give more of an attention to detail.

TheRimOfTheSky

This post is 4 years old now but I think that just further proves my point; Zenimax should have updated it to look properly already. They made a bust in antiquities that has a perfectly good appearance, and now they can just copy over what the bust is going for onto Nerevar's armor.



The Trueflame model still exists in-game, they could at the very least give it to the Nerevar model too.



And last but not least the model uses a Dunmer race instead of a Chimer one, so Nerevar has red eyes? They were just incredibly lazy all-around with it

Aigym_Hlervu

TheRimOfTheSky wrote: »

This post is 4 years old now but I think that just further proves my point; Zenimax should have updated it to look properly already. They made a bust in antiquities that has a perfectly good appearance, and now they can just copy over what the bust is going for onto Nerevar's armor.



The Trueflame model still exists in-game, they could at the very least give it to the Nerevar model too.



And last but not least the model uses a Dunmer race instead of a Chimer one, so Nerevar has red eyes? They were just incredibly lazy all-around with it

The bust you reference here is an unreliable source - we don't know the exact date or the historical period this bust was created in for sure. It can be a late artifact just as well as it can be a thing contemporary to Nerevar himself. Speaking of possibilities, we do have tenets supporting the first idea and no tenets supporting the latter:
Verita Numida assumes it to be created 2100 - 2200 years after the events at Red Mountain - "The sculptor may have spent some time in the Imperial City. I see similarities to Bruma School works. 1E 2800's perhaps?".
Also Amalien is not sure of how should be depicted in it's colors - "Speaking of skin, I wish this bust included color! Dark Elf portraiture leans toward monochromatic, abstract compositions. I'm desperate to know if they conceptualize Nerevar with gold or ashen skin. I bet it's gray. Dark Elves are master revisionists."
Since we know nothing of it for sure, this bust should not be referenced as an original appearance of Nerevar. It is completely beyond of our cognition yet.

I wrote about Nerevar's 3D model here too previously. First, look up at Amalien's words - the Dunmer sculptors are said to be master revisionists and we have no proper statements about the opposite. The model we see the Clockwork City is a projection of Nerevar, not a video of a certain historical event. The official Tribunal Temple's views on the Hortator are stated in a short Temple pamphlet for Western readers - "Nerevar died not long after of his wounds, but he lived to see the birth of the Temple, and to bless the unity of the Dunmer into the safekeeping of Almsivi, the Temple, and all its communion of saints". Since the Clockwork City acknowledges Almsivi, since they follow the Apostolic branch of the Triune faith with only several liturguc and religious differences (I wrote much on it in my Guide to Religions of Tamriel. Tribunal Temple Section), then it is no surprise Nerevar is depicted as a Dunmer there - it fully reconciles with the official Temple teaching.

I also have my own theory of why is Nerevar a Dunmer in an Ayleid armor there. This is a subtheory of my New Elven Chronology theory - it's a Chinese Wall of text, and I don't even remember if I have written or rewritten it there according to my newest research data. Feel free to read, if you would be interested. In short, that version of the NEC theory says that he wears the Ayleid armor because the Chimer are the descendants of the Ayleids who perfromed their Exodus either shortly after the Nerfinsel Schism of Late Merethic Era -1E 198 or after 1E 243 when the Alessians rebelled. The theory also supports the idea that it was not Azura who made the Chimer turn into the Dunmer, but the event was actually a direct consequence of the usage the Tools of Kagrenac. It also explains why did the Dagoths became Dunmer too. Anyway, it's just my theory I've been developing alone all along, so you don't have to stick to it.

In conclusion, I suppose the traditional explanations based on the Tribunal Temple teachings and the opinion of the scholars of the University of Gwylim that I have given above would be enough. Let's leave that Elegiac Replication's Nerevar as it is. It's a Sotha Sil's creation, an artificial one as everything in his realm, so it's only up to him to decide how should it look like. The developers have already corrected the appearance of those Chimer soldiers we see in the flashback during the story of the Brothers of Strife (those ones referenced above) as well as other things they have changed. They have written those certain texts regarding the bust's colors and the dates instead of writing about something else, and my decades long experience in TES universe makes me believe that the lore team knows quite well of what it is doing - if you find some inconsistencies, don't be quick to accuse the developers in not knowing the lore by implementing things like that Nerevar's model. In many cases things can be explained pretty well lore-wise if you know the details of that lore. And in order to know them, you'll need to wish to know them, to ask yourself certain questions and answer them.

Aliyavana

^ Oh god, an excuse for asset reuse

Aigym_Hlervu

Aliyavana wrote: »

^ Oh god, an excuse for asset reuse

Since this thread had been in the lore section, I just said that the sculpture was an unreliable source to be pointed at when speaking of the real appearance of the Hortator, and that the appearance of the Elegiac Nerevar might have purpose, it all does have explanations. I was not speaking of the assets and their reuse at all, Aliyavana.

Personally, I'd like the developers to create a quest depicting a flashback or a time travel thing, like they did it in Nchuthnkarst. A depiction of the real events at Red Mountain with all the lore-wise outcomes available by it's completion depending on the choices the players make in the process of their progression through it - those choices made in the quest should be resulting in all the known outcomes of that battle we know of in the lore, and I suppose that should be the time and place to implement all the real images of the historical characters, to implement their new models, whatever. The history and the mysteries (like that popular one about the disappearance of the Dwemer) won't be changed or destroyed at all - the quest would just recreate all those possibilities we know of from different books and dialogues. So, for some Prisoners and the Elder Scrolls readers it would end one way, while the other would experience it differently. Or it can be explained lore-wise that the choice made there was just a "thread" of a cable. Many threads, all bound together with no beginning or end (Raynor's description of time during his visit to, possibly, the Dwemer). There would be many possibilites to explain it lore-wise. Anyway, that would be the right time and place to show the Nerevar's true appearance (as well as old Almsivi's ones, Dagoth Ur's, possibly unarmored Dwemer, etc.), not that Elegiac projection.

That quest is the thing I would like much the developers to make instead of asking them to change some projection according to a late 1E 2800s statuette. And you say, that all I did was giving some "excuse for asset reuse".. Ah.. It's sad..

TheRimOfTheSky

Aigym_Hlervu wrote: »

TheRimOfTheSky wrote: »

This post is 4 years old now but I think that just further proves my point; Zenimax should have updated it to look properly already. They made a bust in antiquities that has a perfectly good appearance, and now they can just copy over what the bust is going for onto Nerevar's armor.



The Trueflame model still exists in-game, they could at the very least give it to the Nerevar model too.



And last but not least the model uses a Dunmer race instead of a Chimer one, so Nerevar has red eyes? They were just incredibly lazy all-around with it

The bust you reference here is an unreliable source - we don't know the exact date or the historical period this bust was created in for sure. It can be a late artifact just as well as it can be a thing contemporary to Nerevar himself. Speaking of possibilities, we do have tenets supporting the first idea and no tenets supporting the latter:
Verita Numida assumes it to be created 2100 - 2200 years after the events at Red Mountain - "The sculptor may have spent some time in the Imperial City. I see similarities to Bruma School works. 1E 2800's perhaps?".
Also Amalien is not sure of how should be depicted in it's colors - "Speaking of skin, I wish this bust included color! Dark Elf portraiture leans toward monochromatic, abstract compositions. I'm desperate to know if they conceptualize Nerevar with gold or ashen skin. I bet it's gray. Dark Elves are master revisionists."
Since we know nothing of it for sure, this bust should not be referenced as an original appearance of Nerevar. It is completely beyond of our cognition yet.

I wrote about Nerevar's 3D model here too previously. First, look up at Amalien's words - the Dunmer sculptors are said to be master revisionists and we have no proper statements about the opposite. The model we see the Clockwork City is a projection of Nerevar, not a video of a certain historical event. The official Tribunal Temple's views on the Hortator are stated in a short Temple pamphlet for Western readers - "Nerevar died not long after of his wounds, but he lived to see the birth of the Temple, and to bless the unity of the Dunmer into the safekeeping of Almsivi, the Temple, and all its communion of saints". Since the Clockwork City acknowledges Almsivi, since they follow the Apostolic branch of the Triune faith with only several liturguc and religious differences (I wrote much on it in my Guide to Religions of Tamriel. Tribunal Temple Section), then it is no surprise Nerevar is depicted as a Dunmer there - it fully reconciles with the official Temple teaching.

I also have my own theory of why is Nerevar a Dunmer in an Ayleid armor there. This is a subtheory of my New Elven Chronology theory - it's a Chinese Wall of text, and I don't even remember if I have written or rewritten it there according to my newest research data. Feel free to read, if you would be interested. In short, that version of the NEC theory says that he wears the Ayleid armor because the Chimer are the descendants of the Ayleids who perfromed their Exodus either shortly after the Nerfinsel Schism of Late Merethic Era -1E 198 or after 1E 243 when the Alessians rebelled. The theory also supports the idea that it was not Azura who made the Chimer turn into the Dunmer, but the event was actually a direct consequence of the usage the Tools of Kagrenac. It also explains why did the Dagoths became Dunmer too. Anyway, it's just my theory I've been developing alone all along, so you don't have to stick to it.

In conclusion, I suppose the traditional explanations based on the Tribunal Temple teachings and the opinion of the scholars of the University of Gwylim that I have given above would be enough. Let's leave that Elegiac Replication's Nerevar as it is. It's a Sotha Sil's creation, an artificial one as everything in his realm, so it's only up to him to decide how should it look like. The developers have already corrected the appearance of those Chimer soldiers we see in the flashback during the story of the Brothers of Strife (those ones referenced above) as well as other things they have changed. They have written those certain texts regarding the bust's colors and the dates instead of writing about something else, and my decades long experience in TES universe makes me believe that the lore team knows quite well of what it is doing - if you find some inconsistencies, don't be quick to accuse the developers in not knowing the lore by implementing things like that Nerevar's model. In many cases things can be explained pretty well lore-wise if you know the details of that lore. And in order to know them, you'll need to wish to know them, to ask yourself certain questions and answer them.

bruh im not reading all of that lol point is the model looks hella lame and should look a lot cooler. if u want "lore accuracy" it should resemble MK's badass mohawk warrior rendition of Nerevar

(also Nerevar died before the curse so in no way should he be Dunmer, its literally an oversight, see Sotha Nall also erroneously being a Dunmer)

Aigym_Hlervu

TheRimOfTheSky wrote: »

Aigym_Hlervu wrote: »

TheRimOfTheSky wrote: »

This post is 4 years old now but I think that just further proves my point; Zenimax should have updated it to look properly already. They made a bust in antiquities that has a perfectly good appearance, and now they can just copy over what the bust is going for onto Nerevar's armor.



The Trueflame model still exists in-game, they could at the very least give it to the Nerevar model too.



And last but not least the model uses a Dunmer race instead of a Chimer one, so Nerevar has red eyes? They were just incredibly lazy all-around with it

The bust you reference here is an unreliable source - we don't know the exact date or the historical period this bust was created in for sure. It can be a late artifact just as well as it can be a thing contemporary to Nerevar himself. Speaking of possibilities, we do have tenets supporting the first idea and no tenets supporting the latter:
Verita Numida assumes it to be created 2100 - 2200 years after the events at Red Mountain - "The sculptor may have spent some time in the Imperial City. I see similarities to Bruma School works. 1E 2800's perhaps?".
Also Amalien is not sure of how should be depicted in it's colors - "Speaking of skin, I wish this bust included color! Dark Elf portraiture leans toward monochromatic, abstract compositions. I'm desperate to know if they conceptualize Nerevar with gold or ashen skin. I bet it's gray. Dark Elves are master revisionists."
Since we know nothing of it for sure, this bust should not be referenced as an original appearance of Nerevar. It is completely beyond of our cognition yet.

I wrote about Nerevar's 3D model here too previously. First, look up at Amalien's words - the Dunmer sculptors are said to be master revisionists and we have no proper statements about the opposite. The model we see the Clockwork City is a projection of Nerevar, not a video of a certain historical event. The official Tribunal Temple's views on the Hortator are stated in a short Temple pamphlet for Western readers - "Nerevar died not long after of his wounds, but he lived to see the birth of the Temple, and to bless the unity of the Dunmer into the safekeeping of Almsivi, the Temple, and all its communion of saints". Since the Clockwork City acknowledges Almsivi, since they follow the Apostolic branch of the Triune faith with only several liturguc and religious differences (I wrote much on it in my Guide to Religions of Tamriel. Tribunal Temple Section), then it is no surprise Nerevar is depicted as a Dunmer there - it fully reconciles with the official Temple teaching.

I also have my own theory of why is Nerevar a Dunmer in an Ayleid armor there. This is a subtheory of my New Elven Chronology theory - it's a Chinese Wall of text, and I don't even remember if I have written or rewritten it there according to my newest research data. Feel free to read, if you would be interested. In short, that version of the NEC theory says that he wears the Ayleid armor because the Chimer are the descendants of the Ayleids who perfromed their Exodus either shortly after the Nerfinsel Schism of Late Merethic Era -1E 198 or after 1E 243 when the Alessians rebelled. The theory also supports the idea that it was not Azura who made the Chimer turn into the Dunmer, but the event was actually a direct consequence of the usage the Tools of Kagrenac. It also explains why did the Dagoths became Dunmer too. Anyway, it's just my theory I've been developing alone all along, so you don't have to stick to it.

In conclusion, I suppose the traditional explanations based on the Tribunal Temple teachings and the opinion of the scholars of the University of Gwylim that I have given above would be enough. Let's leave that Elegiac Replication's Nerevar as it is. It's a Sotha Sil's creation, an artificial one as everything in his realm, so it's only up to him to decide how should it look like. The developers have already corrected the appearance of those Chimer soldiers we see in the flashback during the story of the Brothers of Strife (those ones referenced above) as well as other things they have changed. They have written those certain texts regarding the bust's colors and the dates instead of writing about something else, and my decades long experience in TES universe makes me believe that the lore team knows quite well of what it is doing - if you find some inconsistencies, don't be quick to accuse the developers in not knowing the lore by implementing things like that Nerevar's model. In many cases things can be explained pretty well lore-wise if you know the details of that lore. And in order to know them, you'll need to wish to know them, to ask yourself certain questions and answer them.

bruh im not reading all of that lol point is the model looks hella lame and should look a lot cooler. if u want "lore accuracy" it should resemble MK's badass mohawk warrior rendition of Nerevar

(also Nerevar died before the curse so in no way should he be Dunmer, its literally an oversight, see Sotha Nall also erroneously being a Dunmer)

I understand your point quite well.

tuxon

There is no Chimer staff in the game, unfortunately. I tried to make Chimer armour for outfit and it was really hard. But yeah, they should have put just Dunmer armour on him, though maybe the idea was in "Ancient Elf".

TheRimOfTheSky

tuxon wrote: »

There is no Chimer staff in the game, unfortunately. I tried to make Chimer armour for outfit and it was really hard. But yeah, they should have put just Dunmer armour on him, though maybe the idea was in "Ancient Elf".

yeah I suspect they'll make Ancestral Dunmer soon but it won't even be Chimer armor, just re-textured Dunmer armor at a marked up price. Maybe next time we get a new zone somewhere in Morrowind they'll make a proper Chimer motif

LickingHistSap

Giving Nerevar hopesflame is a rad and seemingly easy-to-implement idea, as is an armor change to something more fitting.

Complaining the datamined Nerevar is 'dunmeri', however, is dumb as hell. You only see him as a golden projection, and the Chimeri models are identical to dunmer aside from skin tone. The fact the ripped models skin tone doesn't match isn't an oversight, thats just something that doesn't need to be modeled, and so wasn't done. He's still a Chimer, chill.

TheRimOfTheSky

LickingHistSap wrote: »

Giving Nerevar hopesflame is a rad and seemingly easy-to-implement idea, as is an armor change to something more fitting.

Complaining the datamined Nerevar is 'dunmeri', however, is dumb as hell. You only see him as a golden projection, and the Chimeri models are identical to dunmer aside from skin tone. The fact the ripped models skin tone doesn't match isn't an oversight, thats just something that doesn't need to be modeled, and so wasn't done. He's still a Chimer, chill.

Naw yea, its not very noticeable and would only be visually different in a minor way but I mentioned it cuz of how its quite blatantly an oversight ( same with sotha nall's projection ), if Zenimax redoes it they should fix his race too while they at it is all I'm sayin

LickingHistSap

TheRimOfTheSky wrote: »

LickingHistSap wrote: »

Giving Nerevar hopesflame is a rad and seemingly easy-to-implement idea, as is an armor change to something more fitting.

Complaining the datamined Nerevar is 'dunmeri', however, is dumb as hell. You only see him as a golden projection, and the Chimeri models are identical to dunmer aside from skin tone. The fact the ripped models skin tone doesn't match isn't an oversight, thats just something that doesn't need to be modeled, and so wasn't done. He's still a Chimer, chill.

Naw yea, its not very noticeable and would only be visually different in a minor way but I mentioned it cuz of how its quite blatantly an oversight ( same with sotha nall's projection ), if Zenimax redoes it they should fix his race too while they at it is all I'm sayin

It's not an oversight and it wouldn't be visible at all? They aren't 'forgetting' to make them Chimer, these projections have no discernable way to tell they aren't Chimer in game.

This is equivalent to going 'how come the other side of Norg Tzel's rocks are an endless void, are we supposed to believe that the world just cuts off there? Talk about a blatant oversight!'

TheRimOfTheSky

LickingHistSap wrote: »

TheRimOfTheSky wrote: »

LickingHistSap wrote: »

Giving Nerevar hopesflame is a rad and seemingly easy-to-implement idea, as is an armor change to something more fitting.

Complaining the datamined Nerevar is 'dunmeri', however, is dumb as hell. You only see him as a golden projection, and the Chimeri models are identical to dunmer aside from skin tone. The fact the ripped models skin tone doesn't match isn't an oversight, thats just something that doesn't need to be modeled, and so wasn't done. He's still a Chimer, chill.

Naw yea, its not very noticeable and would only be visually different in a minor way but I mentioned it cuz of how its quite blatantly an oversight ( same with sotha nall's projection ), if Zenimax redoes it they should fix his race too while they at it is all I'm sayin

It's not an oversight and it wouldn't be visible at all? They aren't 'forgetting' to make them Chimer, these projections have no discernable way to tell they aren't Chimer in game.

This is equivalent to going 'how come the other side of Norg Tzel's rocks are an endless void, are we supposed to believe that the world just cuts off there? Talk about a blatant oversight!'

I mean, the projection filter is strong, but not strong enough to hide the red eyes and the skin looking grayer than the armor. A similar issue with the Chimer ghosts at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Salothan's_Council being Dunmer.

In any case the Chimer race preset already exists in eso so they could still totally use it no issue

VaIerius

You'll find that if you actually read the book for Ancient Elven crafting style that it is the style worn by Ayleids and Chimer: "It is not at all unusual, even on continental Tamriel, to encounter a High Elf or Dark Elf dressed like an ancient Ayleid or Chimer." So while we all probably like to imagine Nerevar in his 'Ordinator' style armor, Ancient Elven is actually a style the Chimer wore and is therefore lore-friendly.

TheRimOfTheSky

VaIerius wrote: »

You'll find that if you actually read the book for Ancient Elven crafting style that it is the style worn by Ayleids and Chimer: "It is not at all unusual, even on continental Tamriel, to encounter a High Elf or Dark Elf dressed like an ancient Ayleid or Chimer." So while we all probably like to imagine Nerevar in his 'Ordinator' style armor, Ancient Elven is actually a style the Chimer wore and is therefore lore-friendly.

I already know, point is that's a weak justification for asset re-use; base game eso couldn't afford to make different motifs for Ayleids and Maormer (they can nowadays: see Pyandonean style) but by Nerevar's time period such armor was phased out anyways in favor of gold-ish Dunmer armor, as seen on the Chimer soldiers in the stonefalls