Medium Armor Needs Help

xiZeroPointix

Hello I have been looking over the passives for light and medium. Light is superior due to the fact you have built in spell resistances and penetration. Medium armor needs to follow suit with physical resistances and physical penetration. What do u guys think? I am more tank in light armor than medium. If zos wants peiple out if heavy armor medium armor must offer physical resistance..physical penetration...cost reduction and weapon damage/critical.

VaranisArano

Did the Dexterity and Agility passives for medium armor cease to grant weapon critical and weapon damage? Did Wind Walker cease to grant cost reduction?

Its true that light armor grants spell penetration, but it does not grant spell damage, in comparison to medium armor which has weapon damage but not physical penetration. Judging by that, you can have one or the other as an armor passive, but not both.

Its also true that light armor gets spell resistance, heavy armor gets both, and medium armor gets reductions to sneak, detection area, roll dodge cost, and better speed. All of those bonuses to medium armor are extremely nice for nightblades and fairly useful in areas of gameplay where medium armor users use sneak, detection area, and roll dodge - the justice system AND PVP.

Perhaps medium armor players would rather have physical resistance than all those benefits...but I think that devalues the role of stealth and roll dodge as active defenses in PVP and removes tools from the medium armor player's toolbox without giving them anything in return aside from physical resistances they can get through other gear sets.

technohic

Should have never had the cost reduction nerfed a couple of patches ago, nor regen while in sprint nerfed. That really made medium armor for me. Mobility.

xiZeroPointix

VaranisArano wrote: »

Did the Dexterity and Agility passives for medium armor cease to grant weapon critical and weapon damage? Did Wind Walker cease to grant cost reduction?

Its true that light armor grants spell penetration, but it does not grant spell damage, in comparison to medium armor which has weapon damage but not physical penetration. Judging by that, you can have one or the other as an armor passive, but not both.

Its also true that light armor gets spell resistance, heavy armor gets both, and medium armor gets reductions to sneak, detection area, roll dodge cost, and better speed. All of those bonuses to medium armor are extremely nice for nightblades and fairly useful in areas of gameplay where medium armor users use sneak, detection area, and roll dodge - the justice system AND PVP.

Perhaps medium armor players would rather have physical resistance than all those benefits...but I think that devalues the role of stealth and roll dodge as active defenses in PVP and removes tools from the medium armor player's toolbox without giving them anything in return aside from physical resistances they can get through other gear sets.

It is nice for a nightblade and pvp I guess...but it should be the primary armor weight for dps for stamina players. It should be more in line with its heavy and ligjt armor buddies. Sneak and detection radious means nothing outside of pvp. When you want to complete end game trial and vet dungeon content. We are lacking in the medium armor department. Most stamina players are forced into heavy armor because of the wrath passive and the resistances it offers. I would rather not rely on sneaking and dodge chance for damage mitigation, especially for end game pve content. I do play both pvp and pve and medium is lacking in all the above. Ur either a squishy pve dps or a heavy armor wearing juggernaut in pve. Medium should have its place but is frankly not up to snuff. Wrath passive was removed from heavy armor tree..that really sucks...due to the complaints about heavy armor..when heavy is not the problem...medium armor is the problem and doesnt offer good enough passives to be taken over heavy armor

Mettaricana

Kinda feel like medium needs a .5% crot boost per peice and add half the penetration that light adds and give light 6% spelldmg as a trade off

xiZeroPointix

Mettaricana wrote: »

Kinda feel like medium needs a .5% crot boost per peice and add half the penetration that light adds and give light 6% spelldmg as a trade off

Yes something for hiricines sake! No resistances and roll dodge reduction...stealth detection? Non sense. If wrath is removed from heavy at least add physical resistance and physical penetration like light armor does with spell resist and pen..its sad that i am tankier with a light armor sorc than my stam sorc in medium!

Ragnarock41

Medium armor is specially made for nightblades and nothing else.
Half of the passives are outright USELESS for a Dk.

VaranisArano

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Medium armor is specially made for nightblades and nothing else.
Half of the passives are outright USELESS for a Dk.

Strange. Medium Armor works just fine on my stamina sorcerer who does dungeons in addition to the regular round of thieving and murdering. From a PVP scenario, sure, the medium armor passives benefit a fast, stealthy gameplay which is most filled by nightblades. But I fail to see where those benefits to a fast, stealthy gameplay would come from if not medium armor, should the passive be replaced with ones deemed more useful to all stamina DPS types.

xiZeroPointix

Yes medium armor is benificial for nightblades. Armor sets are available if you wanna be fast and sneaky. Medium armor atm seems to cater to only one class. Medium armor should be comparable to light and heavy. It seems to me that the passives it offers are not in line with the other armor weights. Light armor has spell pen..reduced cost spell resistance. Heavy armor has health, resource recovery and resistances. Medium armor has lower sneak detection and roll didge reduction?? Doesnt seem to fit to me

xiZeroPointix

Take away the nigjblade passives and instead insert physical resistance and physical penetration to bring it more in line with what the other armor types bring to the table. It will get people out of heavy armor and back into medium were stamina dps should be. Especially now that heavy armor doesnt stack weapon damage anymore

Asardes

Medium should have a passive for physical resistance and Agility should be buffed from 12% to 15-16%.

Skullstachio

Medium armor is fine the way it is, use something like pelinals aptitude & increase your weapon damage to go along with the Agility passive (which increases weapon damage by 12%) & Whatever your weapon damage may be, your spell damage will be the same as your weapon damage (just not with the spell penetration but it vies in favour to multi-versatility, being able to potentially be powerful in both stamina & magicka based instances.) & For added survivability with light or medium Armor, try Using mighty Chudan, it grants added physical & spell resistance, more max health & Major Ward/Resolve at all times, it may not deal damage like some other monster sets, but as the old saying goes, You can't kill if you are already dead.

Ragnarock41

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Medium armor is specially made for nightblades and nothing else.
Half of the passives are outright USELESS for a Dk.

Strange. Medium Armor works just fine on my stamina sorcerer who does dungeons in addition to the regular round of thieving and murdering. From a PVP scenario, sure, the medium armor passives benefit a fast, stealthy gameplay which is most filled by nightblades. But I fail to see where those benefits to a fast, stealthy gameplay would come from if not medium armor, should the passive be replaced with ones deemed more useful to all stamina DPS types.

I forgot to mention you can go naked with fists and still do fine on casual content in this game.
For everything else, stamina sorc and stamina DK synergize best with heavy armor, while they do not synergize at all with medium.

Meanwhile you can take a random nightblade from cyrodiil, put him in a heavy armor build and he will do just fine.
Which is a good thing, diversity is good, I like having HA nightblades for a change but the same diversity does not exist for a Dk or templar at all.

The difference is between nightblade and other classes is night and day when it comes to medium armor, which I want to be changed.

xiZeroPointix

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Medium armor is specially made for nightblades and nothing else.
Half of the passives are outright USELESS for a Dk.

Strange. Medium Armor works just fine on my stamina sorcerer who does dungeons in addition to the regular round of thieving and murdering. From a PVP scenario, sure, the medium armor passives benefit a fast, stealthy gameplay which is most filled by nightblades. But I fail to see where those benefits to a fast, stealthy gameplay would come from if not medium armor, should the passive be replaced with ones deemed more useful to all stamina DPS types.

I forgot to mention you can go naked with fists and still do fine on casual content in this game.
For everything else, stamina sorc and stamina DK synergize best with heavy armor, while they do not synergize at all with medium.

Meanwhile you can take a random nightblade from cyrodiil, put him in a heavy armor build and he will do just fine.
Which is a good thing, diversity is good, I like having HA nightblades for a change but the same diversity does not exist for a Dk or templar at all.

The difference is between nightblade and other classes is night and day when it comes to medium armor, which I want to be changed.

Nightblade is the only class that synergizes with medium armor. I dont want to slot chudan to survive do to short comings in an armor skill line. I know all the stealthed nightblade bow/ganker builds dont want medium armor to change, but all i am saying is that the oassives it offers are not in line with what ligjt and heavy offer...there is no physical penetration...no physical resistances..light armor offers both. The medium armor skill line is fir niche builds and not viable for most stamina characters. I realize that medium armor is made for speed and mobility which is wonderful. If you want sleath passives put on an armir set to get it. Just like you were suggesting that i wear heavy instead and that is excactly the problem. This forum will die because of the sneak and stealth exploits going on with certain nightblade builds atm.

vulcuran2

You want penetration put points into it on the champion tree, you want physical resistance put points into medium armor on the champion tree instead of complaining I mean come on people its not hard to get what you want with the champion tree

Ragnarock41

vulcuran2 wrote: »

You want penetration put points into it on the champion tree, you want physical resistance put points into medium armor on the champion tree instead of complaining I mean come on people its not hard to get what you want with the champion tree

I don't even know how to respond without insulting your IQ good sir, so I give up.
I hope you have a very nice day.

VaranisArano

A polite response isn't difficult.

"Hey, I appreciate your suggestion about using the CP trees to get me what I want, but I want to use medium armor in No-CP PVP campaigns. So...that doesn't help me get the physical resistance and penetration I want. Its a valid argument for CP PVP and PVE, but light armor and heavy armor users still find it easier to spec into greater Spell Penetration and Physical Resistances because they already get those benefits from their armor. So I can do it with CP, but light and heavy armor users have an advantage that's not fair."

It's not that hard.

But the point is still the same. Medium Armor gives you Weapon Damage, Weapon Crit, speed, stealth, roll dodge, and reduced detection. Its clearly geared for a stealthy or a fast moving gameplay style that relies on moving fast, roll dodging, shuffle, and hiding for defense. Just because Medium Armor does not support ALL playstyles does not mean that the passives that support SOME playstyles need to be changed.

Additionally, ZOS has been moving towards forcing players to commit to a playstyle with more and more gear in the latest patches. For HotR, you can still reach the penetration cap, but you have to invest more gear sets into getting there. For CWC, you can still use those armor skills, but now you have to wear 5 pieces of the armor. So if you really want resistances and penetration, you can craft yourself medium Fortified Brass + Spriggans and get the benefit of every passive of medium armor, but you have to commit to that build. I don't see this trend changing, so I expect ZOS to make us commit further to getting those high numbers of weapon damage and penetration, not make it easier.

Gan Xing

vulcuran2 wrote: »

You want penetration put points into it on the champion tree, you want physical resistance put points into medium armor on the champion tree instead of complaining I mean come on people its not hard to get what you want with the champion tree

The problem with this, even in CP PvP campaigns, is that you have to invest heavily into those stars in order to equalize to the same value that Light Armor (b/c shields) and Heavy armor (b/c regen and resistances) gives in terms of combat and survivability.

Sure, light armor gives nearly 5k spell pen, but with Sharpened and the Lover nerfed to 2.5k each, people tend to go with different things like Thief and Nirnhoned. Frankly, a 12% increase in weapon power doesn't feel as impactful as 5k spell pen. Especially against heavy armor users, where the average stam user might find themselves with less that 5k pen without Sharpened or the Lover.

PS4_ZeColmeia

If you all bothered to look at MA pieces you will notice that there are plenty of sets with physical penetration while with LA there are only 2, 1 as a 5pc and 1 with a 4pc. You do not see any method to increase spell damage by percentage whereas physical damage has MA and the fighter's guild skill line. Physical also gets a possible penetration of 20% from maces or 20% crit from daggers while spell only gets 10% penetration from staves.

So what you are failing to add up is that you are essentially asking for the best of all worlds. You want weapon damage users to have armor that grants set bonus penetration + innate armor penetration + % & flat weapon damage increases + innate weapon crit or penetration from weapons + innate % crit rate per piece of MA + reduced cost to roll dodge + resistance that is nearly as high as HA (certainly way higher than LA).

I'm sorry but I use all 3 sets of armor on my main, depending on what role I'm doing, and MA is by far my favorite and most flexible armor type. You can do all 3 roles in it which is not true of LA or HA (well you can kinda do all 3 in HA too but to a lesser extent in CWC).

MA, and LA, needs more survivability which I think should be in bonuses per piece of MA to active and passive dodge as a 5 pc bonus to MA. LA should change its crit to a %age per piece like MA, and have an increase to shield uptime 5pc bonus to LA. I don't want to suggest the amounts that the bonuses should be, but with the changes to the armor skills I think that this would be preferrable and obviously synergize well with certain classes but benefit anyone that uses armor or skills that cast bubbles or dodge.

Gan Xing

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

If you all bothered to look at MA pieces you will notice that there are plenty of sets with physical penetration while with LA there are only 2, 1 as a 5pc and 1 with a 4pc. You do not see any method to increase spell damage by percentage whereas physical damage has MA and the fighter's guild skill line. Physical also gets a possible penetration of 20% from maces or 20% crit from daggers while spell only gets 10% penetration from staves.

So what you are failing to add up is that you are essentially asking for the best of all worlds. You want weapon damage users to have armor that grants set bonus penetration + innate armor penetration + % & flat weapon damage increases + innate weapon crit or penetration from weapons + innate % crit rate per piece of MA + reduced cost to roll dodge + resistance that is nearly as high as HA (certainly way higher than LA).

I'm sorry but I use all 3 sets of armor on my main, depending on what role I'm doing, and MA is by far my favorite and most flexible armor type. You can do all 3 roles in it which is not true of LA or HA (well you can kinda do all 3 in HA too but to a lesser extent in CWC).

MA, and LA, needs more survivability which I think should be in bonuses per piece of MA to active and passive dodge as a 5 pc bonus to MA. LA should change its crit to a %age per piece like MA, and have an increase to shield uptime 5pc bonus to LA. I don't want to suggest the amounts that the bonuses should be, but with the changes to the armor skills I think that this would be preferrable and obviously synergize well with certain classes but benefit anyone that uses armor or skills that cast bubbles or dodge.

There are 3 medium armor sets that give any amount of Penetration: Unfathomable Darkness, Spriggan's Thorns, and Twice-Fanged Serpent. There is finally 1 monster set that gives penetration: Kra'gh.

Amount of Physical Penetration by Armor set

Unfathomable Darkness: 1487 (when gold) - at 3 pieces
Spriggan's Thorns: 3450 (when gold) - at 5 pieces
Twice-Fanged Serpent: 860 -> 4300 (when gold and fully stacked... only lasts 3 seconds) - at 5 pieces
Kra'gh: 1487 (when gold) at 1 piece

You also have maces and Mauls that ignore 5% and 10% of enemies physical resistances respectively.

Now there are more sets and skills that reduce the resistances of the target, but they don't inherently give you Penetration, just take the resist away from the target.

Now you also have the Roar of Alkosh set that Reduces the Physical and Spell Resistance of any enemy hit by 3010 for 10 seconds.

Finally you also have the Crusher enchant, which reduces enemy resistances by 1622 or 1946 when infused

Now lets switch gears to Magical Penetration

We have Spinners, which gives 3450 (when gold) - at 5 pieces
We also have Flame Blossom which gives 1487 (when gold) - at 4 pieces

and we have light armor passive which gives 4884 with 5 pieces of light armor equipped.

Now lets add that all up

If you went stamina build and focused on penetration (ignoring CP) you could stack up to
6424 + dual mace/maul giving another 10% armor resistance ignored (with 3 UD, 5 Spriggans, and 1 Kra'gh)
or
7274 + dual mace/maul giving another 10% armor resistance ignored (with 5 TFS, 5 Spriggans, and 1 Kra'gh)
or
7947 + dual mace/maul giving another 10% armor resistance ignored (with 5 RoAlkosh, 5 Spriggans, and 1 Kra'gh)

If you went Magicka build and focused on penetration you could have:
9821 (with 5 spinners, 4 flame blossom)
or
11,344 (with 5 RoAlkosh - buffed, and 5 spinners) - but who would run alkosh as a magicka user?

I did not include the sets that grant the reduction of a target's resistances, but will list them below:
Sunderflame - reduce physical resistance by 3440 (when gold) - applies after a heavy attack - lasts 8 sec
Night Mother's Gaze - reduce physical resistance by 2580 (when gold) - applies with critical attacks
Hand of Mephala - applies minor fracture reducing physical resistance by 1320 (when gold) for 5 sec

Now the Lover provides 2752 physical and spell penetration (4196 with 7 Gold gear divines)
And sharpened provides 2752 Physical and spell penetration.

If you don't want to deal with physical penetration, I suggest going as a bleed build: use axes, Blood Drinker, and Pillar of Nirn or Twin sisters. 2h axes and Dual axes bleed passives stack with each other

poochie

What is better unfathomable gold or TBS gold?

zParallaxz

Just give med increase max stam per piece by x amount to a total overall increase for around 9-12%.

WreckfulAbandon

zParallaxz wrote: »

Just give med increase max stam per piece by x amount to a total overall increase for around 9-12%.

Medium armor is not bad off enough to warrant giving 10% max stam

Extra dmg resistance while dodge rolling would be a better tweak, but even that could end up making it OP if it's not the right amount

Does no one fight good medium builds anymore lol, theyre still around

Urza1234

VaranisArano wrote: »

Did the Dexterity and Agility passives for medium armor cease to grant weapon critical and weapon damage? Did Wind Walker cease to grant cost reduction?

Its true that light armor grants spell penetration, but it does not grant spell damage, in comparison to medium armor which has weapon damage but not physical penetration. Judging by that, you can have one or the other as an armor passive, but not both.

Its also true that light armor gets spell resistance, heavy armor gets both, and medium armor gets reductions to sneak, detection area, roll dodge cost, and better speed. All of those bonuses to medium armor are extremely nice for nightblades and fairly useful in areas of gameplay where medium armor users use sneak, detection area, and roll dodge - the justice system AND PVP.

Perhaps medium armor players would rather have physical resistance than all those benefits...but I think that devalues the role of stealth and roll dodge as active defenses in PVP and removes tools from the medium armor player's toolbox without giving them anything in return aside from physical resistances they can get through other gear sets.

If you use medium armor you basically have to dodge roll. If you died, you shoulda rolled. Also Light armor's 2.5k magical resist has saved pretty much no one, ever, its not even 5% resistance.

Ragnarock41

You can't make medium good without making stamblades OP.

Gan Xing

Urza1234 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Did the Dexterity and Agility passives for medium armor cease to grant weapon critical and weapon damage? Did Wind Walker cease to grant cost reduction?

Its true that light armor grants spell penetration, but it does not grant spell damage, in comparison to medium armor which has weapon damage but not physical penetration. Judging by that, you can have one or the other as an armor passive, but not both.

Its also true that light armor gets spell resistance, heavy armor gets both, and medium armor gets reductions to sneak, detection area, roll dodge cost, and better speed. All of those bonuses to medium armor are extremely nice for nightblades and fairly useful in areas of gameplay where medium armor users use sneak, detection area, and roll dodge - the justice system AND PVP.

Perhaps medium armor players would rather have physical resistance than all those benefits...but I think that devalues the role of stealth and roll dodge as active defenses in PVP and removes tools from the medium armor player's toolbox without giving them anything in return aside from physical resistances they can get through other gear sets.

If you use medium armor you basically have to dodge roll. If you died, you shoulda rolled. Also Light armor's 2.5k magical resist has saved pretty much no one, ever, its not even 5% resistance.

except those in PvE.. given how most of the recent dungeons and trials have high magicka damage, and almost nonexistant physical damage

VaranisArano

Gan Xing wrote: »

except those in PvE.. given how most of the recent dungeons and trials have high magicka damage, and almost nonexistant physical damage

This is mostly a PVP thread, with the general idea that no one in PVP runs medium armor because heavy armor or light armor is far superior in terms of resistances. In PVE, trial runners have the benefit of healers and tanks, and so I'd be surprised to find a serious stamina DPS running anything other than medium armor. In PVE, light armor users certainly benefit from their spell resistance, but in PVP, the extra spell resistance is useful but by no means overwhelming in quality (though it does mean they spend less CP to reach a greater spell resistance total).

Lughlongarm

Medium armor need some help with defense to make it attractive for both PVE and PVP , giving it mitigation is pointless we don't want to make it a different kind of heavy armor, giving it more dodge capabilities is very toxic in pvp(we had prema dodge rolling builds before), crit resistance is pvp stats only and doesn't feet with the medium armor theme.

My solution - Medium armor should focus on AOE damage reduction - Why? because aoe damage reduction complements one of the dodge mechanic weaknesses( you cant dodge aoe), for this reason we have sets like "Leki's Focus" and skills like "blade cloak" on DW(medium armor weapon trade mark). This also work thematically - your "dodginess" is making you take the minimal amount of aoe damage which is not completely unavoidable, while heavy armor take the full damage and mitigate it.

How will we do it - Add to the "Agility" passive 10%-15%(balance number games) aoe damage reduction when you wear 5 or more pieces of armor.

What the trade-off? Nerf Athletics to give only 2% reduction to dodge roll - there are many ways to raise this stat if you want to focus on it and sacrifice other things .

What will it change? PVP - medium armor will able to survive better the massive aoe spam of ulties such as "eye of the storm" "dawn breaker" etc... PVE - Most dangerous mechanics are AOE, it will help medium armor to be more forgiving and may even create a new type of medium armor tank using shuffle and things like Leki's / Tava's Favor which was just taken away from heavy armor tanks.

Damage wise, I think medium armor passives are is a good place, especially now, compared to heavy armor after nerfs. We don't want a power creep. We do could use some medium armor sets to compete with heavy armor sets like fury/seven legion. Next expansion, there is a chance we will get rings and amulet crafting and this may give us the option to make heavy armor set's Necklace & Ring with robust trait so we will be able to run medium armor set with heavy armor set on weapons/rings/amulet and dont lose the stamina. This could also will help medium armor quite a bit.