stacking eye of flame facepalm

VaranisArano

We're going to disagree on what constitutes player skill. You have your opinion, I have mine. Thanks much. Let's try to stay on topic from now on.

pieratsos

VaranisArano wrote: »

We're going to disagree on what constitutes player skill. You have your opinion, I have mine. Thanks much. Let's try to stay on topic from now on.

The difference is that my opinion comes from the perspective of trying both scenarios. Your opinion comes from the perspective of trying just one and trying to justify it when you literally admitted "i dont have the skill to play solo".

VaranisArano

I've learned I don't have the skill to play solo by trying it, and discovering that I have neither the time nor inclination to play solo, but instead prefer to spend my time in an organized raid. Just like I learned to deal with the destro ulti pain train in the context of playing in an organized raid.

Which is more or less what I've said on this thread. I've learned to counter this skill usage within the context of playing with an organized raid (without stacking destro ultimates of our own). Again, in the context of fighting players who stack eye of flame, an organized raid is not at a disadvantage as long as it can execute its countering tactics well. In the context of raid to raid combat, destro ulti stacking is annoyance, but not something that can't be countered.

If your experience with tactics that counter or can't counter eye of flame stacking is different as a solo, small group, or another organized raid player, let's hear it. Cyrodiil contains multitudes, and its worth balancing ultimates and other class skills on the level of solo, small group and organized raids - but in order to do that, you need ALL perspectives, including the players who regularly experience raid to raid combat.

TLDR: This thread is about eye of flame stacking raids in PVP. I'm going to keep talking about eye of the flame stacking from the perspective of an organized raid player who fights those groups. If you've got a different perspective, let's hear it, but let's keep it on topic, please.

pieratsos

VaranisArano wrote: »

I've learned I don't have the skill to play solo by trying it, and discovering that I have neither the time nor inclination to play solo, but instead prefer to spend my time in an organized raid. Just like I learned to deal with the destro ulti pain train in the context of playing in an organized raid.

And in that line you just explained PVP in a nutshell and everything wrong with it. Join a group or gtfo.

You are right. Cyrodiil contains multitudes and its worth balancing around all playstyles. So now you understand why the bolded statement is beyond ridiculous.

VaranisArano

"Join a group or gtfo" is indeed a ridiculous statement. I'm glad I never said it.

However, I've stated and restated my experiences with eye of flame stacking enough that I'm frankly tired of sounding like a broken record. These are my experiences in the context of raid-to-raid combat and only within that context, which is obviously only a portion of PVP combat in Cyrodiil.

Vizier

The meta is the pathetic state of PvP at the moment. Blame ZoS.

Are there counters? Sure. Have situational awareness. Know they are going to charge once enough EOF and Negates are charged. Know they will probably have a sorc or two streaking out to stun, a DK or two to perma-lock you, and won't be stopped or slowed by any CC you lay down between you and them.

Your group could also feint and retreat to make them burn their ultimates and then you counter charge with yours. That seems to work ok for groups of comparable size and skill. Of course that none of this includes the hundreds of locations that are choke points that channel groups into specific locations like Keep and tower entrances, halls and corridors, extreme saddles in the terrain etc.

You might also anticipate that what you see on screen doesn't correlate to reality and the lag actually puts your reaction time back a couple seconds...

OR.... ZOS COULD JUST QUIT SUPPORTING THIS STUPID PVP META AND BALANCE THEIR GAME. And we can go on acting like they might do that. And some people will continue to act like it's merely a L2P issue, when clearly it's not.

Avran_Sylt

If you see a Flame Train bringing out the Pain, swap to a Bomblade with Stygian and Vicious Death.

Proxy Det + Cloak into the group while they recover Ult + Soul Shred = Likely Chance of killing someone and starting a chain reaction.

Just like they're taking advantage of numbers, so are you. They got it organized, so it makes sense that you'd have to swap to a different playstyle to counter the organization, rather than every class being inherently able to counter the Flame Train.

technohic

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

If you see a Flame Train bringing out the Pain, swap to a Bomblade with Stygian and Vicious Death.

Proxy Det + Cloak into the group while they recover Ult + Soul Shred = Likely Chance of killing someone and starting a chain reaction.

Just like they're taking advantage of numbers, so are you. They got it organized, so it makes sense that you'd have to swap to a different playstyle to counter the organization, rather than every class being inherently able to counter the Flame Train.

Have you tried this? Just curious as I haven’t but a couple of bombers I talked to said the really organized groups like Dracarys in NA, it didn’t even scratch. Of course; those guys deserve credit for how organized they get it. It’s not really their problem to worry about wetherZOS has made that play style counterable or not.

VaranisArano

That's because a good organized raid often spots a bomber coming in and the healers react accordingly. As long as no one gets caught with low health if Vicious Death procs, you'll see an organized raid's health drop and come right back up, even without earthgore procs.

If that doesn't happen or they get sloppy and unaware, organized raids are as vulnerable to bombers as anyone else.

Biro123

Just throwing in my opinions...


Skill?
imho, its simply a different skillset needed for ball-groups vs solo. Doesn't mean that being good at one type requires any less skill than the other - cos at the end of the day, the higher-skilled group will beat the lower-skilled group, just as the higher-skilled soloer will beat the lower-skilled soloer.
There are some group-players who are also very good solo - some who are rubbish.
There are some good soloers who are also good in a group - but some who are rubbish.
Its just different skills - and you can't really compare them with each other.

The whole ball-group playstyle..?
Personally I don't like the playstyle (tried it - didn't like), and don't like the concept. I've always preferred group-play to be based on calling out targets and focus-fire rather than aoe spam. But I get that it is the most efficient and effective way of playing in a large-scale environment and do have respect for those who do it well.
But I do think that some of the mechanics that make this possible are a bit broken.. I don't think its so much eots (which is what most people complain about simply because its on their death recap) - its a combination of aoe making melee (ie a whole playstyle) simply not work against these groups, the obscene survivability from stacked healing/buffs/cleanses, and the huge mobility.
Being so close together in a blob makes it impossible to target an individual long enough to set up proper burst by myself - so totally impossible for a group to try to co-ordinate burst against one of the blob-players.. So as a mag-sorc, trying to make an impact to anyone in a blob.. curse - purged, wrath - purged, CS - easily healed through, frag - hits a different person - and instantly healed through. Its pretty much pointless to even bother.

This is my problem - its pointless trying.
There can be 50 sorcs all trying to set up their burst and its pointless for all of them.

The only counter is a huge, co-ordinated AOE burst.. which pretty much means another ball-group.. Something is wrong when the only counter to Rock is Rock.

So unless you happen to be in an organised group - you're better off avoiding them and going elsewhere.. And any mechanic in PVE which makes it better to NOT fight other players is a bad mechanic.

TL;DR Respect for those who do it well, but hate the whole concept of it.

pieratsos

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Join a group or gtfo" is indeed a ridiculous statement. I'm glad I never said it.

Thats how it is tho. But then again how would you know when the only thing you do is running in raids.

You are right tho, ur experiences is based only on raid to raid fights which is just one small part of PVP and like you said before PVP should be balanced around all playstyles. So next time maybe you want to think twice before telling people "the way to counter this or that is run in raids ". Not everyone likes that playstyle.

VaranisArano

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Join a group or gtfo" is indeed a ridiculous statement. I'm glad I never said it.

Thats how it is tho. But then again how would you know when the only thing you do is running in raids.

You are right tho, ur experiences is based only on raid to raid fights which is just one small part of PVP and like you said before PVP should be balanced around all playstyles. So next time maybe you want to think twice before telling people "the way to counter this or that is run in raids ". Not everyone likes that playstyle.

I...you are really, really good at misunderstanding me. Persistently. I will try once more, because I hate thinking that I have not been clear.

I have detailed the way my raid counters this tactic and made it clear that this tactic ONLY works for raids. I DON'T expect that solo or small group players can use that tactic and so I DO understand why solo and small group players are opposed to eye of the flame stacking. In my experience, its counterable on a raid vs raid setting, and from the experiences of others, I read that solo and small group players struggle to counter it, hence eye of the flame is unbalanced in anything other than a raid vs raid situation, which I agree is a PROBLEM.

As simple as I can make this: A good organized raid can counter eye of the flame stacking. Small groups or solo players either can't counter it or it is significantly more difficult. That's a problem, because Cyrodiil contains everything from solo players to raids, and should be balanced with everyone in mind.

Got that? I suspect we aren't that far apart in argument than you think we are.

Avran_Sylt

@technohic

Tried it? Not yet. Leveling a Breton NB for it right now? Yes. The raw damage from Proxy Det is so tantalizing to look at though, Nearly Zero gear, no glyphs, no lightning staff passives for AoE damage, and it's already a 5K tooltip that can be buffed up to 2.5x the value, with a 9K tooltip Soul Shred. This is all at paltry magicka (being a level 18) and spelldamage. I'd have to get fully get kitted out before I can really report back.

Oh, wait, PTS is a thing.

This is only numbers and a hodge-podge build (Stygian and War Maiden With Master's Nirnhorned Greatsword):

I can get Proxy Det to deal about 35K damage to a group of 10 Target Skeletons (18K Resistances), so halve that an then some and you may get around 14K damage dealt to a player just from Proxy Det. Then Soul Tether deal about 25.8K damage, halve that and then some and you'll get around 10K damage, Soul Tether also deals it's first tick immediately, which is about 4K damage, so 1.5K. So in less than a second you got about 25.5K worth of pure damage being done to non tank-specced characters. And can easily pump out another attack in less than a second to deal a bit more damage. Like using the Master Titanic Cleave.

Course this is totally liable to fail because you didn't get in the center of them, or you went in at the wrong time and got hit by an AoE and lost the Stygian, and Master Assassin bonuses. Or your abilities didn't crit, yadda yadda. It has a high chance of failure.

But if you grab a buddy and can coordinate, if two of you bomb simultaneously, I don't think there's a build that can survive that.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@technohic

Tried it? Not yet. Leveling a Breton NB for it right now? Yes. The raw damage from Proxy Det is so tantalizing to look at though, Nearly Zero gear, no glyphs, no lightning staff passives for AoE damage, and it's already a 5K tooltip that can be buffed up to 2.5x the value, with a 9K tooltip Soul Shred. This is all at paltry magicka (being a level 18) and spelldamage. I'd have to get fully get kitted out before I can really report back.

Oh, wait, PTS is a thing.

This is only numbers and a hodge-podge build (Stygian and War Maiden With Master's Nirnhorned Greatsword):

I can get Proxy Det to deal about 35K damage to a group of 10 Target Skeletons (18K Resistances), so halve that an then some and you may get around 14K damage dealt to a player just from Proxy Det. Then Soul Tether deal about 25.8K damage, halve that and then some and you'll get around 10K damage, Soul Tether also deals it's first tick immediately, which is about 4K damage, so 1.5K. So in less than a second you got about 25.5K worth of pure damage being done to non tank-specced characters. And can easily pump out another attack in less than a second to deal a bit more damage. Like using the Master Titanic Cleave.

Course this is totally liable to fail because you didn't get in the center of them, or you went in at the wrong time and got hit by an AoE and lost the Stygian, and Master Assassin bonuses. Or your abilities didn't crit, yadda yadda. It has a high chance of failure.

But if you grab a buddy and can coordinate, if two of you bomb simultaneously, I don't think there's a build that can survive that.

Jup, argonian dk tank, 50k hp, 5x reactive, 5x impregnable snb fb, restoult back bar Vampire for damage mitigation

technohic

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@technohic

Tried it? Not yet. Leveling a Breton NB for it right now? Yes. The raw damage from Proxy Det is so tantalizing to look at though, Nearly Zero gear, no glyphs, no lightning staff passives for AoE damage, and it's already a 5K tooltip that can be buffed up to 2.5x the value, with a 9K tooltip Soul Shred. This is all at paltry magicka (being a level 18) and spelldamage. I'd have to get fully get kitted out before I can really report back.

Oh, wait, PTS is a thing.

This is only numbers and a hodge-podge build (Stygian and War Maiden With Master's Nirnhorned Greatsword):

I can get Proxy Det to deal about 35K damage to a group of 10 Target Skeletons (18K Resistances), so halve that an then some and you may get around 14K damage dealt to a player just from Proxy Det. Then Soul Tether deal about 25.8K damage, halve that and then some and you'll get around 10K damage, Soul Tether also deals it's first tick immediately, which is about 4K damage, so 1.5K. So in less than a second you got about 25.5K worth of pure damage being done to non tank-specced characters. And can easily pump out another attack in less than a second to deal a bit more damage. Like using the Master Titanic Cleave.

Course this is totally liable to fail because you didn't get in the center of them, or you went in at the wrong time and got hit by an AoE and lost the Stygian, and Master Assassin bonuses. Or your abilities didn't crit, yadda yadda. It has a high chance of failure.

But if you grab a buddy and can coordinate, if two of you bomb simultaneously, I don't think there's a build that can survive that.

@Avran_Sylt let me know how it goes. I’d be curious if anything is more effective now. I doubt ball groups will give up heavy armor as they don’t need 200 WD but I wonder if resto ultimate nerf has affected their uptime there at least.

pieratsos

VaranisArano wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Join a group or gtfo" is indeed a ridiculous statement. I'm glad I never said it.

Thats how it is tho. But then again how would you know when the only thing you do is running in raids.

You are right tho, ur experiences is based only on raid to raid fights which is just one small part of PVP and like you said before PVP should be balanced around all playstyles. So next time maybe you want to think twice before telling people "the way to counter this or that is run in raids ". Not everyone likes that playstyle.

I...you are really, really good at misunderstanding me. Persistently. I will try once more, because I hate thinking that I have not been clear.

I have detailed the way my raid counters this tactic and made it clear that this tactic ONLY works for raids. I DON'T expect that solo or small group players can use that tactic and so I DO understand why solo and small group players are opposed to eye of the flame stacking. In my experience, its counterable on a raid vs raid setting, and from the experiences of others, I read that solo and small group players struggle to counter it, hence eye of the flame is unbalanced in anything other than a raid vs raid situation, which I agree is a PROBLEM.

As simple as I can make this: A good organized raid can counter eye of the flame stacking. Small groups or solo players either can't counter it or it is significantly more difficult. That's a problem, because Cyrodiil contains everything from solo players to raids, and should be balanced with everyone in mind.

Got that? I suspect we aren't that far apart in argument than you think we are.

Your first post on the matter was to tell people "i suggest you to do whatever i do" and "accept it". Thats the exact opposite of what you are saying now. If you believe its unbalanced you should say it from the beginning. Thats not what you did and thats why this argument started. Glad that you agree that its unbalanced now.

Joosef_Kivikilpi

Blanco wrote: »

Red=Bad. Move out of the red to avoid damage

Only comment I have is for Lotus Fan. That 70% 8 second snare is ridic to just simply "roll" and get out. You can't escape once you get snared haha!

Trust me - I know - I'm a Mageblade. haha

TheDoomsdayMonster

1st thing, dont build your character to be squishy (having at or around 20k Health with a food buff); that sets up the rest of the group to be killed by a Vicious Death proc when you die...

2nd, you dont have to be a full tank, but dont character build with a total emphasis on damage/sustain and expect to withstand Destro Ult. If you are built like that (and I know alot of people that are), dont cry when you are killed by this ability...

3rd, Elusive Mist is your friend vs Destro Ult; it may be the best counter for it in the game. Elusive Mist and Mighty Chudan (Chudan's defensive bonus's stack with those of Elusive Mists) has saved me from many, many, many attempts to kill me with Destro Ult...


Enjoy!

Joosef_Kivikilpi

What really needs to be done is nerf vamps or make Camouflage Hunter great again.

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

1st thing, dont build your character to be squishy (having at or around 20k Health with a food buff); that sets up the rest of the group to be killed by a Vicious Death proc when you die...

2nd, you dont have to be a full tank, but dont character build with a total emphasis on damage/sustain and expect to withstand Destro Ult. If you are built like that (and I know alot of people that are), dont cry when you are killed by this ability...

3rd, Elusive Mist is your friend vs Destro Ult; it may be the best counter for it in the game. Elusive Mist and Mighty Chudan (Chudan's defensive bonus's stack with those of Elusive Mists) has saved me from many, many, many attempts to kill me with Destro Ult...


Enjoy!

Defilted

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Join a group or gtfo" is indeed a ridiculous statement. I'm glad I never said it.

Thats how it is tho. But then again how would you know when the only thing you do is running in raids.

You are right tho, ur experiences is based only on raid to raid fights which is just one small part of PVP and like you said before PVP should be balanced around all playstyles. So next time maybe you want to think twice before telling people "the way to counter this or that is run in raids ". Not everyone likes that playstyle.

Just becasue you do not like the answer does not make it less valid of an answer.