Game has gone SKILLESS........ CP is garbage

Crom_CCCXVI

I could literally take someone who just started yesterday- put them in the right gear sets.
Teach them how to use the Sword and Sheild Ult or how to stack 3 sheilds.
- and they could run around just fine in Cyrodil, (like most of the population) and almost never die.

Is this really the game you envisioned last year at this time when you started to ruin it?

disintegr8

What is your point?

A new player who gets good instructions and the right gear/food/weapons off someone who knows how the game works has always been able to compete. They are not SKILLESS (sic) as they have been provided with knowledge and gear.

Alpheu5

They also wouldn't be able to kill anybody because they won't have the know-how to manage their resources between 3 shields and offensive abilities.

Bhaal5

disintegr8 wrote: »

What is your point?

A new player who gets good instructions and the right gear/food/weapons off someone who knows how the game works has always been able to compete. They are not SKILLESS (sic) as they have been provided with knowledge and gear.

He cant use a one shot NB or a hardcast sorc anymore

CyrusArya

The damage is there. Just in order to access it, you need to leave the comfort zone and build more for a glass cannon. This means more damage sets, medium/light armor, damage glyphs, more damage skills less buffs etc. I now play glass more or less on all my characters and it’s a blast, although less forgiving.

Outside of the few no damage tanks, there are few players I struggle to kill. The players I do have a challenge killing are tough because of their player skill...not because I can’t overcome a build.

To put it very simply: less QQ, more pew pew.

VaranisArano

And I can throw Plague Doctor on my magDK healer and almost never die...oh who am I kidding. Of course I'll still die. Whether its 1v1 or a group, I'll still die if enough damage comes in or I mismanage resources, I just last longer before I go down.

I mean, what sort of "skill-less" are you talking about? The skill to siege a keep? The skill to know when a certain keep needs to be defended and when it doesn't? The skill to heal a group or protect a siege line? Skill to know when to bomb or when to stay stealthed inside a keep?

Or are you talking about 1v1 skills here? Spoiler, 1v1 skills or 1vX skills are not the only skills needed in PVP in Cyrodiil.

All the shield-stacking and permablocking and earthgore-stacking and whatever cheese you want to bring up won't save players from a lack of skill and experience that gets them into bad situations. Nor can it give them the skills needed to take objectives and win campaigns. All it can do is keep them alive a little longer than everyone else.

Waffennacht

The idea that OP completely waves off theory crafting and individual build ideas tells me quite a bit about the player.

He complains about shield ult and shield stacking. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess he himself runs a Meta build.

Betsararie

OP has a point CP was not the right direction to take endgame progression. It needs some form of endgame progression, but unfortunately CP breaks PvP. All you have to do is go between CP and non CP to see that. Non CP is far more balanced and nobody is unkillable, if you want to stay alive in No CP you have to actually be good if there are other good players there too.

VaranisArano

Blanco wrote: »

OP has a point CP was not the right direction to take endgame progression. It needs some form of endgame progression, but unfortunately CP breaks PvP. All you have to do is go between CP and non CP to see that. Non CP is far more balanced and nobody is unkillable, if you want to stay alive in No CP you have to actually be good if there are other good players there too.

Where is this amazing benefit from CP that will make me unkillable even if there are good players trying to kill me? I want it!

Or maybe its CP combined with gear combined with well-executed tactics for that build that makes a person unkillable. Hmm. I shall have to consider this.

Betsararie

VaranisArano wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

OP has a point CP was not the right direction to take endgame progression. It needs some form of endgame progression, but unfortunately CP breaks PvP. All you have to do is go between CP and non CP to see that. Non CP is far more balanced and nobody is unkillable, if you want to stay alive in No CP you have to actually be good if there are other good players there too.

Where is this amazing benefit from CP that will make me unkillable even if there are good players trying to kill me? I want it!

Or maybe its CP combined with gear combined with well-executed tactics for that build that makes a person unkillable. Hmm. I shall have to consider this.

It's CP that pushes it over the edge.... plenty of gear is OP or arguably OP but it's all manageable in a non-cp environment.

I enjoy CP too because I'm much more powerful, but I recognize the game as less balanced with it. If we're going to keep it, it needs to be toned down. Either give less points or the advantages need to be toned down.

Brutusmax1mus

Not dying, and being effective are different.

Adenoma

CP are dumb, but OP isn't really doing a good job of discussing why uncapped (in that it is always increasing each patch) vertical progression is a bad system.

SpiderCultist

+Agree to OP.

Skill these days means hiding behind a rock/tree until a group of players treads on you. On CP you can change "group" for "zerg".

VaranisArano

Blanco wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

OP has a point CP was not the right direction to take endgame progression. It needs some form of endgame progression, but unfortunately CP breaks PvP. All you have to do is go between CP and non CP to see that. Non CP is far more balanced and nobody is unkillable, if you want to stay alive in No CP you have to actually be good if there are other good players there too.

Where is this amazing benefit from CP that will make me unkillable even if there are good players trying to kill me? I want it!

Or maybe its CP combined with gear combined with well-executed tactics for that build that makes a person unkillable. Hmm. I shall have to consider this.

It's CP that pushes it over the edge.... plenty of gear is OP or arguably OP but it's all manageable in a non-cp environment.

I enjoy CP too because I'm much more powerful, but I recognize the game as less balanced with it. If we're going to keep it, it needs to be toned down. Either give less points or the advantages need to be toned down.

Sorry, I don't see how I can debate you if you keep moving the goal posts. First its CP makes you unkillable, and now its CP pushes it over the edge...

In my experience with trying the meta builds in PVP, I can have the gear and I can have the CP, but its the well-executed tactics that make the difference. Just like a player can put on the BIS gear and the BIS skills on their character, but unless they put in the time and effort to perfect their rotation they will never reach a good DPS much less top tier, a player like me can have the gear and the CP but without the experience and tactics to pull off an "unkillable build" I'm just as killable as any other random player.

I suppose that CP breaks PVP if you are looking at it from the lens of no CP PVP, or even the lens of "I'm a skilled player and so I should be able to kill anyone." Which, yes, CP lets you sustain better, damage more, and mitigate more damage. Its a safety net or a crutch that doesn't exist in no CP, if you want to think about it that way.

Does it break CP PVP? Nope. CP PVP is alive and well from my perspective. Admittedly, I run regularly with an organized raid on PC/NA Vivec, so my viewpoint will be different from the small group players and the solo players. I see plenty of variety in builds, a fair number of the builds that people call "cheese" and I've yet to meet a build that can't be wrecked by proper tactics well-executed. CP doesn't make anyone unkillable - it just makes it take longer or require more people, which given that Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, I don't actually have a problem with.

idk

So help a player develop skill and say PvP does not require skill.

WuffyCerulei

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLUkgRAy_Vo

Betsararie

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sorry, I don't see how I can debate you if you keep moving the goal posts. First its CP makes you unkillable, and now its CP pushes it over the edge...

It's not moving the goal post, the point I'm making is that CP is the factor that pushes things "over the edge" and makes people unkillable. No CP = no unkillable. Understand?

This is evidenced by the fact that in No CP, in nearly every circumstance, it will not take more than 2 single players to kill another player. This goes for the tankiest warden, dk, temp etc you find in no CP. 2 guys will be able to take him down with a coordinated burst, in nearly all circumstances.

Whereas in CP, you have tanks that entire zergs can't take down, or at least will take a very long time to take down. And this is nothing against those tanks, but that is possible simply only because of the bonuses to mitigation , block reduction and other passive bonuses that CP provides. Without CP tanks are actually very balanced.

VaranisArano wrote: »

In my experience with trying the meta builds in PVP, I can have the gear and I can have the CP, but its the well-executed tactics that make the difference. Just like a player can put on the BIS gear and the BIS skills on their character, but unless they put in the time and effort to perfect their rotation they will never reach a good DPS much less top tier, a player like me can have the gear and the CP but without the experience and tactics to pull off an "unkillable build" I'm just as killable as any other random player.

I suppose that CP breaks PVP if you are looking at it from the lens of no CP PVP, or even the lens of "I'm a skilled player and so I should be able to kill anyone." Which, yes, CP lets you sustain better, damage more, and mitigate more damage. Its a safety net or a crutch that doesn't exist in no CP, if you want to think about it that way.

Does it break CP PVP? Nope. CP PVP is alive and well from my perspective. Admittedly, I run regularly with an organized raid on PC/NA Vivec, so my viewpoint will be different from the small group players and the solo players. I see plenty of variety in builds, a fair number of the builds that people call "cheese" and I've yet to meet a build that can't be wrecked by proper tactics well-executed. CP doesn't make anyone unkillable - it just makes it take longer or require more people, which given that Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, I don't actually have a problem with.

The point I and many others are making is that CP increases the extent to which player skill doesn't matter. Well executed tactics make a difference in any fight, but CP allows for more room for screw ups and people do not die as easily. Far more 1v1s end in a stalemate in CP PvP, and many more players take 2+ players to take down in CP PvP. The action is also not as fast paced.

Most people will agree that small scale and solo PvP are what takes skill in the game, and it is harder to stay alive in small scale fights without CP assuming everyone is of equal skill. The main problem with CP is that players start to build for tankiness and forget about trying to kill people and those players truly need a group of players to take them down. Most of the players who go a little tanky but still are interested in killing are manageable and overall not a problem in CP. I actually fall into that category.

VaranisArano

Okay, so what I'm getting is that you prefer the skill, space and the challenge of No CP PVP. That's fine. CP PVP doesn't play the same as No CP PVP, that much is obvious.

I'm perfectly happy to stay in CP PVP, where my character plays more or less the same way she does in the base game. Neither unkillable nor particularly worried about builds who think they're unkillable.

I'm happy there's both options in the game.

technohic

Think I know where the OPs coming from but it’s nit articulated well.

CP no doubt has lead to many nerfs on things that would have been fine or otherwise not needed if CP didn’t exist ( looking at you, sustain nerf and resource poisons). Then there are things that are not nearly as effective any more in CP like siege weapons which allows very tight ball groups. Recourse timers on roll dodge and streak may never have been needed in a Soft cap world. Blazing shield or just shields in general might not have needed the battle spirit nerfing in a Soft cap world.

So I can see the argument against Cp; but it’s the hand we’ve been dealt

Adenoma

I play pretty much only no-CP and will jump into vivec in off hours if Sotha is super dead. CP are so forgiving for PvP. I can sustain outnumbered in ways that aren't imaginable in no-CP. I practically feel like I'm on an emp.

Bhaal5

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLUkgRAy_Vo

A worthy quote

Betsararie

Bhaal5 wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLUkgRAy_Vo

A worthy quote

LOL. Post about the skillful aspect of the game under attack, thinking not caring is acceptable.

That really says a lot about the people who aren't caring. lol

Vilestride

The only issue with CP is that it makes it harder for new players to get Into the game and be viable in comparison to people at the cap.

Bhaal5

Vilestride wrote: »

The only issue with CP is that it makes it harder for new players to get Into the game and be viable in comparison to people at the cap.

But thats progression though, or other wise its just another 'call of pooy'. As it is, its relatively easy to get your cp lvl'd these days.

Chilly-McFreeze

Is this whole "I like rugby but I hate American football" kinda thing still not over yet? As long as there are cp, people will always have preferences. In no cp you can't pull stuff you can do in cp and vice versa. And remember the quote "if everyone gets buffed, no one has an advantage".

Beside this basic issue, champion points are a boring and bad system that sucks the life, the power and uniqueness out of classes. This should be reverted and another kind of progression should take its place. What this should be is up to discussion. Maybe a mix of veteran rank gear, passives and morphs. Whatever, as long as cp exists, I stay in Vivec. If they don't push me away with all the bad patch notes.

VaranisArano

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

The only issue with CP is that it makes it harder for new players to get Into the game and be viable in comparison to people at the cap.

But thats progression though, or other wise its just another 'call of pooy'. As it is, its relatively easy to get your cp lvl'd these days.

Especially compared to the days of Vet Ranks when there was a serious difference between a vet 16 player and someone lower. Even then Cyrodiil was still battle-leveled to Vet 14. - Not that I don't have to keep pointing out to people that the pre-One Tamriel sense of progression we had was not all fun and games either.

SugaComa

Ok so today I made friends with a lad who asked to dual ... He absolutely effing destroyed me ... He was 150 lower CP and wearing all blue gear against me all gold gear ...

His rotation and gear set had me back footed from the second the flag lifted, and he was building it for pve

I've been playing 3 years on and off only picked up PvP 2 month ago ... You can't say CP and sets are removing skill what they are doing is removing the ability to mindlessly plod through this game expecting to be able to continue to play through with the same old sets you wore 3 years ago

Ragnaroek93

Balance in no CP is even worse - no build diversity at all and gear does matter even more than in a CP campaign.

Why is no CP dead if no PvP is so much better?

Jawasa

bring back 1.3-1.5. It's prob nostalgia but Thats when i had most fun in cyro.

HiImRex

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Balance in no CP is even worse - no build diversity at all and gear does matter even more than in a CP campaign.

Why is no CP dead if no PvP is so much better?

bad players can't handle the truth that CP carries them, gets hard punished for their mistakes in no CP and then run back to CP crying about how much more balanced CP is because they can sit in open field, dodge-roll 3 times in a row unnecessarily, sprint away to LOS and pat themselves in the back for "skillful" play

also chuck norris and TM killed no CP campaign last cycle with massively one sided zerging and 4 am emp capping, really nothing to do with pvp balance

Biro123

Ahh, the usual 'if you don't play my way, you're bad' argument.

You talk as if your no-cp opponent doesn't have the same limitations as you do...

There is of course a counter view I could give in that you no-cp boys are just need to l2p if you cant beat an opponent with defence.

But of course I'm not gonna go there cos I don't believe one ruleset needs more skill than another.. They just need slightly different skills for a slightly different play style.