The truth about Crown Crates...with article

jlboozer

I ran by a very interesting article concerning loot boxes and how they incentivize gaming companies to make less actual content. They use the same greasy tactics casinos use. Read and leave your thoughts below... thanks!

http://theweek.com/articles/731592/how-video-game-industry-tricks-players-money

Captain8504

Yeah but everything in the crown store are merely cosmetic items. There isn't really anything people are buying that is giving them an edge in game. Plus, no one is making anyone purchase anything.

TelvanniWizard

Scam crates. No more to say.

AlienatedGoat

Captain8504 wrote: »

Plus, no one is making anyone purchase anything.

No one's making you put that heroin in your arm. Thus, there's nothing wrong with heroin?

*** logic.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Phage wrote: »

Captain8504 wrote: »

Plus, no one is making anyone purchase anything.

No one's making you put that heroin in your arm. Thus, there's nothing wrong with heroin?

*** logic.

The fact that heroin business is illegal, forbidden and punished as a crime does not change the fact that you can buy it quite easily nearly everywhere in the world.
The fact that heroin is bad and extremely dangerous does NOT change the fact that you are ultimately responsible for choosing to push it into your body or not.

If we allow the states, laws and regulations to "protect" us from anything potentially dangerous, we will end up with governments forbidding short skirts for women, earrings for men and long hair for everyone, and whatnot.

I don't think we should expect governments, laws and regulations to make choices for us.

I also don't think something as trivial as crown crates should be compared to hard drugs, but it's still the same reasoning. Noone forces you to buy.
There are many, many very strong addictive poisonous products freely and legally available (sugar, tobacco, casinos, alcohol, etc... ), crown crates and gambling systems in video games are just one of them.

Banana

Hanokihs

I like how these stupid articles always assume that people don't know what they're doing; like we're slaves to the machine, or something, and have no control over ourselves when it comes to shiny trinkets.

People want what they like, buy what they want, and when they buy it, they use whatever system is in place. If we have a direct purchase system? Excellent! If we have the loot crate system? Not excellent! But that's what we do have. And if we want these items, there's no alternative. This is just like those temporary tattoo machines in supermarkets, but on a bigger scale: maybe you get the one you want. Maybe not. But you always get something. Decide how much money you can afford to lose and hope for the best. We're not being hoodwinked. We're not being enticed to spend instead of play.

You can't get them randomly in game. You can't buy them for in-game gold off other people. You can't get their contents through achievements or grinding. You have to spend the money, or you have to go without - there are no third options, and here's the kicker: we recognize this. There are no tricks, no traps, and no false promises. They've proven they don't want to adjust the odds in our favor. They've demonstrated unwillingness to just offer the items another way. There have been enough of us asking for these adjustments, and enough of us boycotting the crates entirely, so if someone wants to buy in at this point? They know what they're getting into.

AlienatedGoat

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If we allow the states, laws and regulations to "protect" us from anything potentially dangerous, we will end up with governments forbidding short skirts for women, earrings for men and long hair for everyone, and whatnot.

I don't think we should expect governments, laws and regulations to make choices for us.

Not saying it should be banned. If you read the article you'll note that the author only says that it should be regulated. That means putting restrictions in place and treating it the same way you'd treat real world gambling - i.e. as an activity that has potential for abuse and addiction.

There should absolutely be warnings about the dangers of gambling, and there should absolutely be laws that compel video game developers to disclose odds.

AlienatedGoat

Hanokihs wrote: »

I like how these stupid articles always assume that people don't know what they're doing; like we're slaves to the machine, or something, and have no control over ourselves when it comes to shiny trinkets.

Just like real world gambling, gambling boxes in video games have the potential for abuse and addiction - along with the often disastrous consequences.

Just because a person makes a bad choice (or a series of bad choices) doesn't absolve video game developers of theirs. Implementing loot crates with bad drop rates, with no disclosed odds, and no mention of the the word 'gambling' is predatory.

jlboozer

Alot of very good feedback so far, it should atleast be talked about. It does feed off of some peoples weakness, just like a casino. Gambling is a real problem for some people

Elsonso

Nothing new here. They might as well have mentioned Bethesda and ZOS directly in the article, and probably would have if ESO was a major player in the market.

jlboozer

lordrichter wrote: »

Nothing new here. They might as well have mentioned Bethesda and ZOS directly in the article, and probably would have if ESO was a major player in the market.

Agreed, that's why I posted it. Same tactics

Hanokihs

To say that loot crates prey on someone's weakness for gambling is to ignore a fundamental aspect of gambling addiction: there's no limit. You can always try again for more/to break even, no matter how much you win or lose, and it's this drive to be a big winner that keeps people at the table or pulling the handle.

For crates, this isn't true. The absolute most someone can want is "all the items," but I don't know of a single person who's tried that, nor do I know of anyone who's posted about an attempt to do it, be it a failure or success. Not in this game. Nor in any other game where you only get the items by spending money - because people know that's a foolish endeavor, and unless they have cash to burn, they can see that it won't happen. You may do it by accident on the way to something specific that you're searching for, but as for making it the actual objective? Not a chance.

In this game specifically, I only know of people who are attempting to get specific things. If they can be bought with gems, these people stop paying when they either pull it or get enough gems. If they can't be bought with gems, these people stop paying when they either pull it or run out of disposable income.

Show me someone who's succumbed to addiction/obsession/compulsions, and I'll agree with everyone that these things are a disease and pox upon an otherwise acceptable game. Until then, quit making these out to be worse than they are. You're not convincing anyone of anything at best, and hurting the cause by being overly dramatic at worst.

AlienatedGoat

Hanokihs wrote: »

To say that loot crates prey on someone's weakness for gambling is to ignore a fundamental aspect of gambling addiction: there's no limit.

It's not ignoring that aspect. With RNG-only mounts in Apex, there can very well be no limit. It's all based on random chance. There is no "end".

Just look at the guy who spent $3000 on 1000 crates and still didn't get the mount he wanted.

Hanokihs

Phage wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

To say that loot crates prey on someone's weakness for gambling is to ignore a fundamental aspect of gambling addiction: there's no limit.

It's not ignoring that aspect. With RNG-only mounts in Apex, there can very well be no limit. It's all based on random chance. There is no "end".

Just look at the guy who spent $3000 on 1000 crates and still didn't get the mount he wanted.

Yes, but as I mentioned in my post, when I talked about how this process does have an end, he got to the end. That guy (and some others like him) eventually stopped when he ran out of money. He knew what he was getting into, didn't really anticipate anything positive coming from it, and refused to drive himself into financial ruin. Someone with a gambling addiction or impulse control problem doesn't stop; they go full beans and never look back.

As stated, there is always an end: You get what you want, you give up, or you run out of money. Perhaps some combination of those three.

Edit to Ponder:

I have to wonder how gambling/crate detractors feel about literally every other instance of RNG this game is built upon. Is this a special case because the items are shinier and getting them requires money? Because nobody told the VMA or Monster Helm farmers that they're insane and needed help or were being taken advantage of, even though people grinding for specific gear pieces can go at it for months and their endeavors are based just as much on luck. Same for the people farming Bouyant motif pages; their complaints about the hideous drop rate are valid and understandable, but if someone posts about being unable to get a drop-only mount they're looking for in the crate boxes, they're fools who deserve what happens to them, even though both circumstances can be just as frustrating. This forum needs to make up its mind.

T4T2FR34K

Hanokihs wrote: »

To say that loot crates prey on someone's weakness for gambling is to ignore a fundamental aspect of gambling addiction: there's no limit. You can always try again for more/to break even, no matter how much you win or lose, and it's this drive to be a big winner that keeps people at the table or pulling the handle.

Hanokihs wrote: »

Yes, but as I mentioned in my post, when I talked about how this process does have an end, he got to the end. That guy (and some others like him) eventually stopped when he ran out of money.

Are you sure you know what you're talking about...have you ever looked up stuff like product placement...why the candy is at the checkoput isle...maybe do some research before posting.

Cadbury

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ozi-S4QMZQ

Asardes

I don't give a damn about cosmetic items in this game unless they are earned trough an achievement that requires skill, like dungeon and trials skins. I only opened 4 Crown Crates, all free. Broke down every consumable inside to gems and bought a few XP scrolls. Most loot in them looks silly so I won't buy any.

Hanokihs

[quote="Cadbury;c-4583587"(video)[/quote]

We already can't trade items between players, so the main focus of this video, while relevant to the industry as a whole, doesn't apply here. It addresses not a single issue currently being discussed in this thread.

T4T2FR34K wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

To say that loot crates prey on someone's weakness for gambling is to ignore a fundamental aspect of gambling addiction: there's no limit. You can always try again for more/to break even, no matter how much you win or lose, and it's this drive to be a big winner that keeps people at the table or pulling the handle.

Hanokihs wrote: »

Yes, but as I mentioned in my post, when I talked about how this process does have an end, he got to the end. That guy (and some others like him) eventually stopped when he ran out of money.

Are you sure you know what you're talking about...have you ever looked up stuff like product placement...why the candy is at the checkoput isle...maybe do some research before posting.

They have a whole aisle of candy too; locally, it's usually sandwiched between "garbage junk food aisle 2" and "baking or pasta aisle 1," but that doesn't mean every person buys something they don't want when they pass by. I also have no idea what basic product placement psychology has to do with this discussion. Of course people want the "cool" items; it's not a crime or underhanded practice to try and entice people to spend money, if that's what you're implying. 90% of the things on this planet are trying to make people buy something, and that's a generously low estimate. But if people want them, as I've already said, they can either purchase them through the methods provided or go without them; there's no trick here, and I've given my point of view on this specific thing already.

Rohamad_Ali

https://youtu.be/_ICbcBcXVC0

Darkstorne

Hanokihs wrote: »

Yes, but as I mentioned in my post, when I talked about how this process does have an end, he got to the end. That guy (and some others like him) eventually stopped when he ran out of money.

Oh that's fine then. The Crown Crate system often bleeds people for thousands of dollars without them getting the item they're after, but obviously EVERYONE who is enticed by this system is smart enough to know what they're getting into and isn't being scammed out of their money at all...

You keep mentioning as your key defence of this system that there isn't another option here. That buying the crates is the only option we have. You're refusing to recognize that ZOS needs to turn a profit, and if we all called them on their blatant *** and said "no thanks, I'll be smart with my disposable income" then they'd return to selling these items directly on the Crown Store. ZOS would still make extra money from cosmetic sales, and gamers would get exactly the items they want at an agreed price. You wouldn't be spending thousands on a mount, you'd spend up to $30 at most.

If you aren't smart enough to know that this is a ridiculously abusive system that is designed to target the weakest-willed consumers into spending literally thousands of dollars, and YOU defend it while spending thousands on them... I've got bad news for you. You're the perfect example of the kind of gamer who needs protecting by governments, so gaming companies can't keep shafting you like this instead of letting you pay $10-30 for these mounts. It's a cruel and abusive system that deliberately exploits weak-willed gamers with little financial sense to line the pockets of shareholders.

Turelus

Captain8504 wrote: »

Yeah but everything in the crown store are merely cosmetic items. There isn't really anything people are buying that is giving them an edge in game. Plus, no one is making anyone purchase anything.

This doesn't make it right that we're manipulated for our money though.

Loot boxes are never for the benefit of the consumer. I gave ZOS a begrudging pass when they let you buy anything with gems, but that wasn't good enough and they had to push it further.

Now we have people buying 1,000 crates and not getting an item they want, but hey at least someone at Zenimax Media can buy a fourth house or something.

Elsonso

Turelus wrote: »

Captain8504 wrote: »

Yeah but everything in the crown store are merely cosmetic items. There isn't really anything people are buying that is giving them an edge in game. Plus, no one is making anyone purchase anything.

This doesn't make it right that we're manipulated for our money though.

Loot boxes are never for the benefit of the consumer. I gave ZOS a begrudging pass when they let you buy anything with gems, but that wasn't good enough and they had to push it further.

Now we have people buying 1,000 crates and not getting an item they want, but hey at least someone at Zenimax Media can buy a fourth house or something.

Agreed.

It was interesting how people complained when there was no way to buy the exclusive items in the crates, so they introduced Gems. Once people were satisfied, they turned right around and made exclusive items that Gem could not buy. It is like they decided that as long as some things can be bought with Gems, it is OK if other things cannot.

I blame some Person-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named at Bethesda Softworks for Crown Crates, by the way. I don't know if it was one person, or multiple people, but I think it was driven from there, not ZOS. There is no way ZOS could have done Crown Crates, like they were done, without help.

And... no pass from me, begrudgingly or not. Crown Crates still stand as the worst development change added to the game.

Countcalorie

another reason why its bull crap is that we are seing a large loss of quality in most games released.
why? cause of lootcrates making more money then an actual decent game.It isn't all about the exploitation of children with their parents credit cards or people with addictive personalities.its the fact that games are becoming less and less about entertainment and more about draining every cent from you

Countcalorie

Hanokihs wrote: »

To say that loot crates prey on someone's weakness for gambling is to ignore a fundamental aspect of gambling addiction: there's no limit. You can always try again for more/to break even, no matter how much you win or lose, and it's this drive to be a big winner that keeps people at the table or pulling the handle.

For crates, this isn't true. The absolute most someone can want is "all the items," but I don't know of a single person who's tried that, nor do I know of anyone who's posted about an attempt to do it, be it a failure or success. Not in this game. Nor in any other game where you only get the items by spending money - because people know that's a foolish endeavor, and unless they have cash to burn, they can see that it won't happen. You may do it by accident on the way to something specific that you're searching for, but as for making it the actual objective? Not a chance.

In this game specifically, I only know of people who are attempting to get specific things. If they can be bought with gems, these people stop paying when they either pull it or get enough gems. If they can't be bought with gems, these people stop paying when they either pull it or run out of disposable income.

Show me someone who's succumbed to addiction/obsession/compulsions, and I'll agree with everyone that these things are a disease and pox upon an otherwise acceptable game. Until then, quit making these out to be worse than they are. You're not convincing anyone of anything at best, and hurting the cause by being overly dramatic at worst.

hey pal, you just blow in from stupid town?

TelvanniWizard

Darkstorne wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Yes, but as I mentioned in my post, when I talked about how this process does have an end, he got to the end. That guy (and some others like him) eventually stopped when he ran out of money.

Oh that's fine then. The Crown Crate system often bleeds people for thousands of dollars without them getting the item they're after, but obviously EVERYONE who is enticed by this system is smart enough to know what they're getting into and isn't being scammed out of their money at all...

You keep mentioning as your key defence of this system that there isn't another option here. That buying the crates is the only option we have. You're refusing to recognize that ZOS needs to turn a profit, and if we all called them on their blatant *** and said "no thanks, I'll be smart with my disposable income" then they'd return to selling these items directly on the Crown Store. ZOS would still make extra money from cosmetic sales, and gamers would get exactly the items they want at an agreed price. You wouldn't be spending thousands on a mount, you'd spend up to $30 at most.

If you aren't smart enough to know that this is a ridiculously abusive system that is designed to target the weakest-willed consumers into spending literally thousands of dollars, and YOU defend it while spending thousands on them... I've got bad news for you. You're the perfect example of the kind of gamer who needs protecting by governments, so gaming companies can't keep shafting you like this instead of letting you pay $10-30 for these mounts. It's a cruel and abusive system that deliberately exploits weak-willed gamers with little financial sense to line the pockets of shareholders.

You said the truth, man.

Scam crates are keeping my out of supporting the game, because there is nothing on the crown store available that a like. Every good virtual little cosmetic thing is in the crates, and I don´t want to gamble to acquire what I would like to have. I just wanna pay for what I want, and that´s it. As long as the crates system goes on, I´m afraid I´m out of the system. No spending money in cosmetics, even when I would like to.

davey1107

This is a conversation that’s been had many times. People will come in and defend the crown crates, claiming that the income helps pay for the game and that people can make those own decisions about what to buy or not buy.

The problem with these arguments is...they’re not goo arguments. Lol.

Let’s address the first argument - revenues are good for the game. This is true, but only so long as they are helping build and maintain a long term customer base. Companies that sell things use a number of metrics...One is to track what percent of customers feel they were “ripped off” by a purchase and wish they hadn’t made it. Companies and investment analysts want to keep this under 5% for any given product - a 5% value regret rate is a sort of “red alert.” Apple maintains a 0.05% rate, so one in 2,000 customers regret their decision.

Last year an industry poll was conducted and this question was asked about micro transactions. Keep in mind, that’s all in game purchases...not just gambling purchases. MTs scored a HORRIBLE 52% regret ratio. I mean, that’s just awful beyond belief. This is what a lot of experts and game reviewers are thinking of when they’re hard on these sort of products. The reason this makes MTs as they exist today bad is because a 52% regret rate means you are alienating customers and shrinking your base. In other words, whatever fiscal benefit MTs offer today...this comes at the cost of dollars down the road. They aren’t helping the games at all, they’re hurting them in the long run.

The second argument is that the gambling transactions don’t need better regulating. In my experience, this argument is posed by the people who usually whine first and loudest when they perceive things as unfair. All hail the Trump era, lol.

But this isn’t a good argument. It’s based on the idea that “people know what they’re getting into, so they get what they deserve.” But they don’t know what they’re getting into. Is the chance of winning an apex mount 1:50 or 1:50,000,000? We don’t know, because game companies have claimed that what is won has no real value, so despite the fact that people are spending real money for it (which is literally the definition of something of value), they won’t comply with gambling regulations...even the simplest ones that most would agree are fair, like posting odds charts.

With no regulation, the system is rife for abuse. What might that look like? Well, Zos knows they release a crate season and that online reviewers come on and buy packs and open them to show what the rewards are like. They could very easily design a super cool reward tree in a new season, then release it with moderately good odds. The reviewers all come in and make their videos and release them saying “to get the apex mount I spent $80,” or whatever it is. Then in the next weekly update Zos can go in and change the odds, so that it costs on average $300 to get that mount. But people don’t know, because odds are revealed and there are no protections in place.

In a sense, playing crown crates is like playing blackjack at a casino that has the right to take all of the queens out of the deck between shuffles. It’s a bad system, completely,open to abuse, without transparency or accountability. And it allows one party to do whatever they decide is fair, while the other party doesn’t have a right to even know the specifics on how they’ve been treated.

As a whole, micro transactions and gambling micro transactions are quite new for the game industry. As such, it’s a bit of the wold west right now. By and large customers and investors are unhappy, but companies are raking in the cash so they’re not stopping. What will ultimately happen is probably similar to what usually happens when a new product crops up and goes through this sort of phenomenon - eventually some company or other will behave horribly, get caught, be crushed by the resulting fallout, then other companies will learn from that and reform.

Asardes

Most people gambling on crates have probably been subscribing for a long time and have lots of crowns in their accounts and little to do with them (ex. they have access to the DLCs so they don't need to buy them). I've only been recently subbing, mostly due to inventory bonuses, but I got 9K crowns with my 6 months sub. I did buy some cosmetic items: an edit for one of my characters, a pack of hair styles and another of beards and various other hair styles which were about 1K crowns each and the grim harlequin motifs which was 2.2K. I still have 3.8K crowns which will buy the frost caster style when it comes in store again. The subsequent crown bonuses will go towards house purchases, but I will never ever buy crown crates. After two years of farming gear non stop I've come to hate the living hell out of RNG: I want to have certainty, at least for things I pay IRL money for, albeit indirectly.

But I do understand why people would buy things like that, especially if they are very rich adults. I don't think people pushing thousands of bucks to win a certain mount or mask live on food stamps - saw someone bragging on the forums he bought 150K crowns a few months ago at a discount ... Jesus tap-dancing Christ!. And let's say a kid gets hold of his parents credit card and gambles on crates, or buys other stuff from a web site, that's not a game's problem, since those kind of games have passwords, saving the password for auto-login and/or leaving the device without screen lock is 100% a data security issue at the user side. If I had a small kid I wouldn't leave my phone or computer unlocked, or my credit card lying around; if he stole that from my wallet he would get quite a severe punishment, because stealing was bad in principle, but would be partly my fault for not instilling proper moral values trough education.

mirta000b16_ESO

Hanokihs wrote: »

Yes, but as I mentioned in my post, when I talked about how this process does have an end, he got to the end. That guy (and some others like him) eventually stopped when he ran out of money.

Then gambling in a casino is not gambling too, because when you run out of money, you're forced to stop?

Elsonso

Asardes wrote: »

Most people gambling on crates have probably been subscribing for a long time and have lots of crowns in their accounts and little to do with them (ex. they have access to the DLCs so they don't need to buy them). I've only been recently subbing, mostly due to inventory bonuses, but I got 9K crowns with my 6 months sub. I did buy some cosmetic items: an edit for one of my characters, a pack of hair styles and another of beards and various other hair styles which were about 1K crowns each and the grim harlequin motifs which was 2.2K. I still have 3.8K crowns which will buy the frost caster style when it comes in store again. The subsequent crown bonuses will go towards house purchases, but I will never ever buy crown crates. After two years of farming gear non stop I've come to hate the living hell out of RNG: I want to have certainty, at least for things I pay IRL money for, albeit indirectly.

I bought a lot mor Crowns last year than I did this year. Crown Crates have been a boon for my wallet, as I am not needing to buy Crowns as much anymore. My ESO Plus subscription is more than enough Crowns to last me the 6 months between subscription payment. I know I am not typical, or at least I hope I am not.

See, for as much as I hate Crown Crates, I hate desperate marketing people more. If Crown Crates fail, they are not going to see the error of thier ways and come up with a more reasonable way to get revenue. No, my fear is that they will go nuclear on us and come up with something 10x worse than the Crown Crates we have now. If they kill the game, that is OK (to them). There is always another game coming along. I don't want marketing to kill the game.

dodgehopper_ESO

jlboozer wrote: »

I ran by a very interesting article concerning loot boxes and how they incentivize gaming companies to make less actual content. They use the same greasy tactics casinos use. Read and leave your thoughts below... thanks!

http://theweek.com/articles/731592/how-video-game-industry-tricks-players-money

Anyone familiar with other MMO's is aware of this stuff. This trend in MMORPG's is a large reason why I've said for years that ESO will be my last MMO. In fact I remember telling friends that my previous game would be my last unless Bethesda came up with an MMO for either fallout or elder scrolls. Look what happened. At any regard this is my last MMO and I plan to enjoy it as long as I can, but I'm not a fan of the systems described. I loathe gambling with a passion and I personally think it has no place in the gaming marketplace. I'm also a capitalist. ZoS can do whatever the hell it wants but I'm a customer and the day I feel they've crossed the line is the day they'll lose me as a customer. Its that simple.