Any possibility for a swamp raider change?

Toc de Malsvi

laced wrote: »

That is actually why I was really confused , and slightly irked. I planned on doing automaton and serpent something another, cant remember the name, eventually but I just need the damned time tbh. Busy busy. I adjusted my cp quite a bit now, and i will test it tomorrow . Since you are familiar with bow, should you even bother with the penetration cp point for pve? Or no? Also, should I remove my points in the light and heavy attack bonus damage point, and put it all into the dot and physical/poison point?

While light attacks are a higher percentage of dps for Bow, that star still only buffs that one specific area. You should always bother with the penetration CP unless your group/sets are giving you over 18200 penetration. Mighty buffs all your output, Piercing buffs all your output, Thaumaturge buffs all your dots, Precise Strikes buffs all crits, and Man at arms all direct damage. Every time I calculate it I come up with no points into the light/heavy attack star.

templesus

laced wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

So Incap can be even more broken in Cyrodiil then it already is? No thanks, I’ll pass

Its for more than one build, if you would have bothered reading the thread you would have realizedthat.

goldenarcher1 wrote: »

I suppose a bow NB could proc this set from range with impale.

Another set to mess around with.

There are possibilities, but that would be like having a magicka set proc from a heavy melee attack.

Regardless of the fact, it will make incap far more broken then it currently is on live, to the point medium and light may be unplayable. This is one of those things the Devs actually thought about when creating this set.

Jade1986

templesus wrote: »

laced wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

So Incap can be even more broken in Cyrodiil then it already is? No thanks, I’ll pass

Its for more than one build, if you would have bothered reading the thread you would have realizedthat.

goldenarcher1 wrote: »

I suppose a bow NB could proc this set from range with impale.

Another set to mess around with.

There are possibilities, but that would be like having a magicka set proc from a heavy melee attack.

Regardless of the fact, it will make incap far more broken then it currently is on live, to the point medium and light may be unplayable. This is one of those things the Devs actually thought about when creating this set.

I dunno what you are on about, incap already procs this.

LiquidPony

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Is this set good on any other class?

Well, it could be useful for a bow warden, : cough : my main : cough : or any bow build for that matter, but we would have to waste slot in order to get the proc, and that is just dumb, same for any other stam build. There are ways to make a setup where you can achieve that 450 damage, but a change to the proc would be a HUGE QoL improvement to bow builds across the board. It would still be useful for dks because if it procced from direct damage or poison damage, it would still proc from your weapon abilities, and your ardent flame poison morphs.

Bird of Prey, done. In raids use the Armor Buff, done. You still have to ahve 66.67% poison and disease damage to make it better than a different 5-piece set, so other sets are simply better damagewise, as no class reaches this portion of poison or disease damage.

My build , with sub optimal weapons and cp atm, reaches 17-20 k dps on dummies and raids with good tanks, and main bar is all poison, except for evil hunter. Poison injection, lethal arrow, sub assault and acid spray. Bird of prey would have to be used every ten seconds and would force you to remove something more useful, or force you to use a sub optimal consumable to increase magicka for only that ability. Have not tested it with the poison arrow ultimate , possibly better than bear, but havent had the time, or could be bothered till I have better gear and more cp. Main bar bow, until I get master bow, is also poison enchant, back bar weapon damage enchant. So , needless to say, there are builds that use tons of poison / disease damage.

Toxic Barrage while mildly useful as a burst ultimate, is a dps loss. @Masel92 is correct, you need 66%+ poison damage to make it worth it.

Endless Hail alone is roughly 20%, light attacks are another 10% for bow main bar, caltrops are another 8%, trap is another 6-8%. These are all physical, ballista is another 6%, its physical.

17-20k dps with a tank is not good, especially on a NB. 25-28k is very attainable solo buffed with low cp and sub par weapons.

To be fair for bow setups, utilizing Lethal Arrow, Swamp Raider if you have a good option to proc it isnt far behind, but it is behind and worse than just using Hundings. DKs have the only good option to proc it in FOO.

I'm aware that I'm necroing this thread but I wanted to address something specific to Swamp Raider ...

The tooltip is misleading. You do not need an ability like FoO to proc it.

Every stam class can easily keep Swamp Raider procced almost 100% of the time. It procs off of all sorts of stuff you wouldn't expect it to (Sunderflame's proc procs Swamp Raider, as does pretty much every Monster set proc including Stormfist and Velidreth). I wouldn't be surprised if NMG procced it as well (I'm pretty sure it did back in the day, not sure if it still does).

While Swamp Raider certainly isn't optimal, it's not bad. You can easily hit 40k self-buffed on a StamDK using Sunderflame + Swamp Raider. If Morag Tong is already in your group and you're the lucky stamDK who gets to go "full damage," Hunding's + Swamp Raider is not a bad option (although not as good as Hunding's + VO or Hunding's + Briarheart, but a strong option nonetheless).

Nolic1

A magic damage glyph proc it as well and works best on NB with a magic glyph that returns stam.

LiquidPony

Nolic1 wrote: »

A magic damage glyph proc it as well and works best on NB with a magic glyph that returns stam.

Yeah, I did notice that, but Velidreth/Stormfist/Selene will keep it procced nearly 100% so I'd say there's little reason to use a sub-optimal glyph to proc it unless you're using a build with no monster set.

Nolic1

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

A magic damage glyph proc it as well and works best on NB with a magic glyph that returns stam.

Yeah, I did notice that, but Velidreth/Stormfist/Selene will keep it procced nearly 100% so I'd say there's little reason to use a sub-optimal glyph to proc it unless you're using a build with no monster set.

Cool that it proc off the monster sets as well then I can change my NB to not use that in the off hand proc.

Toc de Malsvi

LiquidPony wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Is this set good on any other class?

Well, it could be useful for a bow warden, : cough : my main : cough : or any bow build for that matter, but we would have to waste slot in order to get the proc, and that is just dumb, same for any other stam build. There are ways to make a setup where you can achieve that 450 damage, but a change to the proc would be a HUGE QoL improvement to bow builds across the board. It would still be useful for dks because if it procced from direct damage or poison damage, it would still proc from your weapon abilities, and your ardent flame poison morphs.

Bird of Prey, done. In raids use the Armor Buff, done. You still have to ahve 66.67% poison and disease damage to make it better than a different 5-piece set, so other sets are simply better damagewise, as no class reaches this portion of poison or disease damage.

My build , with sub optimal weapons and cp atm, reaches 17-20 k dps on dummies and raids with good tanks, and main bar is all poison, except for evil hunter. Poison injection, lethal arrow, sub assault and acid spray. Bird of prey would have to be used every ten seconds and would force you to remove something more useful, or force you to use a sub optimal consumable to increase magicka for only that ability. Have not tested it with the poison arrow ultimate , possibly better than bear, but havent had the time, or could be bothered till I have better gear and more cp. Main bar bow, until I get master bow, is also poison enchant, back bar weapon damage enchant. So , needless to say, there are builds that use tons of poison / disease damage.

Toxic Barrage while mildly useful as a burst ultimate, is a dps loss. @Masel92 is correct, you need 66%+ poison damage to make it worth it.

Endless Hail alone is roughly 20%, light attacks are another 10% for bow main bar, caltrops are another 8%, trap is another 6-8%. These are all physical, ballista is another 6%, its physical.

17-20k dps with a tank is not good, especially on a NB. 25-28k is very attainable solo buffed with low cp and sub par weapons.

To be fair for bow setups, utilizing Lethal Arrow, Swamp Raider if you have a good option to proc it isnt far behind, but it is behind and worse than just using Hundings. DKs have the only good option to proc it in FOO.

I'm aware that I'm necroing this thread but I wanted to address something specific to Swamp Raider ...

The tooltip is misleading. You do not need an ability like FoO to proc it.

Every stam class can easily keep Swamp Raider procced almost 100% of the time. It procs off of all sorts of stuff you wouldn't expect it to (Sunderflame's proc procs Swamp Raider, as does pretty much every Monster set proc including Stormfist and Velidreth). I wouldn't be surprised if NMG procced it as well (I'm pretty sure it did back in the day, not sure if it still does).

While Swamp Raider certainly isn't optimal, it's not bad. You can easily hit 40k self-buffed on a StamDK using Sunderflame + Swamp Raider. If Morag Tong is already in your group and you're the lucky stamDK who gets to go "full damage," Hunding's + Swamp Raider is not a bad option (although not as good as Hunding's + VO or Hunding's + Briarheart, but a strong option nonetheless).

That is an interesting tidbit.

As to it not being bad, I wouldn't disagree however my testing suggests that virtually no "damage" set is bad. Some are worse than others but with proper CP, Enchant, and rotation optimization they all pull within 2k of each other. This may be a result of the lower bar for Bow/Bow dps, but I have not found a large difference in output for single target parses unless I am running sustain sets or health sets.

From stam DK Bow/Bow testing I've found sets with at least one crit bonus will pull 35k no problem, and the best setups pull 37k plus some change. I tested every set I had direct access to on the PTS during CWC, I re-optimized CP for each setup by testing on a dummy without CP equipped then plugging values into @Asayre 's optimizer. Some seemed easier to hit that 35k-37k range than others, but no amount of tweaking to enchants+CP+rotation pulled them to 38k. In theory I should be able to hit 38k, but I don't see doing better than that right now.

LiquidPony

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Is this set good on any other class?

Well, it could be useful for a bow warden, : cough : my main : cough : or any bow build for that matter, but we would have to waste slot in order to get the proc, and that is just dumb, same for any other stam build. There are ways to make a setup where you can achieve that 450 damage, but a change to the proc would be a HUGE QoL improvement to bow builds across the board. It would still be useful for dks because if it procced from direct damage or poison damage, it would still proc from your weapon abilities, and your ardent flame poison morphs.

Bird of Prey, done. In raids use the Armor Buff, done. You still have to ahve 66.67% poison and disease damage to make it better than a different 5-piece set, so other sets are simply better damagewise, as no class reaches this portion of poison or disease damage.

My build , with sub optimal weapons and cp atm, reaches 17-20 k dps on dummies and raids with good tanks, and main bar is all poison, except for evil hunter. Poison injection, lethal arrow, sub assault and acid spray. Bird of prey would have to be used every ten seconds and would force you to remove something more useful, or force you to use a sub optimal consumable to increase magicka for only that ability. Have not tested it with the poison arrow ultimate , possibly better than bear, but havent had the time, or could be bothered till I have better gear and more cp. Main bar bow, until I get master bow, is also poison enchant, back bar weapon damage enchant. So , needless to say, there are builds that use tons of poison / disease damage.

Toxic Barrage while mildly useful as a burst ultimate, is a dps loss. @Masel92 is correct, you need 66%+ poison damage to make it worth it.

Endless Hail alone is roughly 20%, light attacks are another 10% for bow main bar, caltrops are another 8%, trap is another 6-8%. These are all physical, ballista is another 6%, its physical.

17-20k dps with a tank is not good, especially on a NB. 25-28k is very attainable solo buffed with low cp and sub par weapons.

To be fair for bow setups, utilizing Lethal Arrow, Swamp Raider if you have a good option to proc it isnt far behind, but it is behind and worse than just using Hundings. DKs have the only good option to proc it in FOO.

I'm aware that I'm necroing this thread but I wanted to address something specific to Swamp Raider ...

The tooltip is misleading. You do not need an ability like FoO to proc it.

Every stam class can easily keep Swamp Raider procced almost 100% of the time. It procs off of all sorts of stuff you wouldn't expect it to (Sunderflame's proc procs Swamp Raider, as does pretty much every Monster set proc including Stormfist and Velidreth). I wouldn't be surprised if NMG procced it as well (I'm pretty sure it did back in the day, not sure if it still does).

While Swamp Raider certainly isn't optimal, it's not bad. You can easily hit 40k self-buffed on a StamDK using Sunderflame + Swamp Raider. If Morag Tong is already in your group and you're the lucky stamDK who gets to go "full damage," Hunding's + Swamp Raider is not a bad option (although not as good as Hunding's + VO or Hunding's + Briarheart, but a strong option nonetheless).

That is an interesting tidbit.

As to it not being bad, I wouldn't disagree however my testing suggests that virtually no "damage" set is bad. Some are worse than others but with proper CP, Enchant, and rotation optimization they all pull within 2k of each other. This may be a result of the lower bar for Bow/Bow dps, but I have not found a large difference in output for single target parses unless I am running sustain sets or health sets.

From stam DK Bow/Bow testing I've found sets with at least one crit bonus will pull 35k no problem, and the best setups pull 37k plus some change. I tested every set I had direct access to on the PTS during CWC, I re-optimized CP for each setup by testing on a dummy without CP equipped then plugging values into @Asayre 's optimizer. Some seemed easier to hit that 35k-37k range than others, but no amount of tweaking to enchants+CP+rotation pulled them to 38k. In theory I should be able to hit 38k, but I don't see doing better than that right now.

Good point. I agree completely. Swamp Raider is in that tier of sets with probably Leviathan, Blooddrinker, Red Mountain, Viper, Poisonous Serpent, etc. Totally viable, can probably pull 65k+ with it in a raid parse, just not as good as the top tier damage sets like Hunding's/Acuity/VO/etc.