Khajiit too weak of a race?

Supernatural

Hello everyone. In this post, I will be discussing how the Khajiit race performs in an end-game PvE and PvP environment. I will start with PvE:

Critical strike chance and critical strike damage both have been nerfed to the ground over the last patches. Nerfs to major & minor force, thief & shadow mundus stones, as well as inferiority of precise over other traits such as infused, sharpened and nirnhoned have made critical a much less valuable stat, and thus made Khajiit a much less valuable race, since Khajiits are all about critical strike chance and damage, and that is why people were choosing them for end-game raiding in the first place back in the days. And then came the Morrowind update, which made resource management quite brutal, a fact that affected Khajiit much more than Redguard, as Khajiit does not benefit from any strong form of passive sustain (10% stamina regeneration is minimal), such as adrenaline rush or a larger stamina pool. So, at the present time, Khajiit and Redguard DPS are pretty much equal and Redguard has better sustain, so I ask: Why pick Khajiit instead of Redguard as your race for your end-game PvE stamina toon?

PvP wise, I would say that Khajiit is in an even worse spot. In fact, I think it is actually the worst race to pick for a stamina character at the moment. Redguard and Bosmer are flat out better both in terms of damage and sustain, Imperial has very high health and stamina pools, and Orc has more utility. What do we get as a Khajiit?

1. 20% Health Recovery. In my honest opinion, this is the most useless stat in the entire Elder Scrolls Online. Absolutely worthless in PvE, and too weak in PvP. Only by running Troll King you can make some use out of this passive, and even then you will be losing on more important stats like stamina recovery and weapon damage.
2. 10% Stamina Recovery. Decent, but not even close to bosmer's 21% stamina recovery or redguard's adrenaline rush.
3. 8% Weapon Critical. You will be critically hitting and healing a bit more often than all the other races, but overall things such as impenetrable, resistant and shields will diminish this passive's value.
4. 10% damage done while in stealth. Good if you are ganking and attacking from stealth in general, but in open combat it will not really help you. Wood Elf also has this passive as well.
   
   Overall, I think it is quite obvious clear that Khajiit is currently underperforming. It is outshined by Redguard in all end-game PvE content, as it is more or less doing the same damage as a Khajiit and has way better resource management, and in PvP it is lacking in a lot of aspects. It clearly needs some buffs so that it can compete once again with other races.
   
   First of all, I do not think that the race should be buffed in the form of sustain. There are other races like Wood Elf & Redguard which have quite strong resource management, so having a third one would not make much sense and would not help race diversity. The Khajiit's niche is its weapon critical, but with all the nerfs to critical strike chance and damage, and with all the counters critical has in PvP, the 8% weapon critical is looking weak. In my opinion, the most balanced approach would be to add a maximum stamina bonus in place of the health and stamina recovery ones. With this change, Khajiit will become a pure damage race, with no form of resource management attached to it. It will be the go-to choice for PvE DPS, but not my much, and the lack of sustain will be very noticable. And in PvP, it will properly compete with other races.
   
   So these are my thoughts. Please, tell me what you think. Do you believe Khajiit needs some buffing or is it fine as it is?

Shadzilla

Needs buffing for sure. It is the only race without a magicka or stamina pool boost, and you are correct with the crit chance much lower powered than it used to be.

I remember 2 years ago, carnage actually stopped working in the orsinium PTS... Literally the only passive that gave this race anything decent, was gone... Gil reported it at the start of PTS, made a forum thread on it. Gina responded to the issue/thread early on in the PTS saying they would look into it. It was not fixed, they avoided giving the community any more responses on it, regardless of our pleas. Everyone playing a khajiit from October of 2015 til like March of 2016 had no carnage passive, literally. I don't know what was worse... The fact that 95% of the people playing the race had no idea about the bug, or the fact that ZOS yet again failed to fix massive issues that are reported and acknowledged early on in the PTS. Like people go in there and report stuff to them for fun or something... Either way, was a very sad time for all khajiits... This khajiit was especially mad there was no race change at that time... This khajiit will never "shelf" his main stamblade he has had since beta. This khajiit attacked many enemies that did not deserve attacking during that era, for all the wrong reasons.

kessik221

I'd say they are pretty balanced in the heavy attack weave meta. Redguard is just overkill. I play a nord stam dk, dunmer stam nb, orc stam sorc and never ever worry about resource management. Redguard is just overkill for players with a low skill cap.

SilentRaven1972

Khajiit are what most of my characters are, even though I suffer/struggle with trying to keep my stam up and do half okayish damage. One has a bunch of points in stam plus stam-beneficial armor, but still burn through it in a few hits. It sucks and sad khajiit is sad.

Supernatural

Shadzilla wrote: »

Needs buffing for sure. It is the only race without a magicka or stamina pool boost, and you are correct with the crit chance much lower powered than it used to be.

I remember 2 years ago, carnage actually stopped working in the orsinium PTS... Literally the only passive that gave this race anything decent, was gone... Gil reported it at the start of PTS, made a forum thread on it. Gina responded to the issue/thread early on in the PTS saying they would look into it. It was not fixed, they avoided giving the community any more responses on it, regardless of our pleas. Everyone playing a khajiit from October of 2015 til like March of 2016 had no carnage passive, literally. I don't know what was worse... The fact that 95% of the people playing the race had no idea about the bug, or the fact that ZOS yet again failed to fix massive issues that are reported and acknowledged early on in the PTS. Like people go in there and report stuff to them for fun or something... Either way, was a very sad time for all khajiits... This khajiit was especially mad there was no race change at that time... This khajiit will never "shelf" his main stamblade he has had since beta. This khajiit attacked many enemies that did not deserve attacking during that era, for all the wrong reasons.

HAHAHA FEELS BAD MAN

Supernatural

kessik221 wrote: »

I'd say they are pretty balanced in the heavy attack weave meta. Redguard is just overkill. I play a nord stam dk, dunmer stam nb, orc stam sorc and never ever worry about resource management. Redguard is just overkill for players with a low skill cap.

If you are running a full heavy attack rotation, it is possible to sustain, yes. But why play as a Khajiit when as a Redguard you will be doing the damage AND have better sustain? In solo PvE like Maelstrom Khajiit is having a really hard time sustaining, and it is not even doing any more damage than other stamina races.

UnseenCat

Why play as a Khajiit? Well, this is an MMORPG, and appealing RP is a thing for some players. Any playable race should have reasonable ways to build up to be enjoyable in PvE, honestly.

Personally, I have other reasons as well. There's a huge uncanny valley issue with the human races in ESO's character modelling that just makes me say... nope. I've toyed with the Elf races, but never was really satisfied, and Argonians don't really speak to me. So I prefer Khajiit as a character basis that makes the game engaging.

Enslaved

20% health regen into 6% max stamina would suffice.

Supernatural

Enslaved wrote: »

20% health regen into 6% max stamina would suffice.

I do remember Zenimax trying to implement this change back in Shadows of the Hist, but they reversed it before the update would go live.

Supernatural

UnseenCat wrote: »

Why play as a Khajiit? Well, this is an MMORPG, and appealing RP is a thing for some players. Any playable race should have reasonable ways to build up to be enjoyable in PvE, honestly.

Personally, I have other reasons as well. There's a huge uncanny valley issue with the human races in ESO's character modelling that just makes me say... nope. I've toyed with the Elf races, but never was really satisfied, and Argonians don't really speak to me. So I prefer Khajiit as a character basis that makes the game engaging.

This is purely from a roleplaying point of view though. This is not what this post is about.

wazzz56

let me catch you slipping in cyro while on my khajiit then see who is underpowered lol jk
But seriously though, they are fine...I have 5k weapon damage (buffed) 60 plus %crit and 1600 regn, wish my max was higher (33k) but I can suffice...hell I played him as a bomber and a heavy attack magblade for a while hitting 25k heavy attacks on (rip Clever)......tbh, unless you are doing hardcore end game pve stuff, you can make any race work for any class...gear and cp can make up for passives..again will not be optimal, but can be made to work

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

Supernatural wrote: »

kessik221 wrote: »

I'd say they are pretty balanced in the heavy attack weave meta. Redguard is just overkill. I play a nord stam dk, dunmer stam nb, orc stam sorc and never ever worry about resource management. Redguard is just overkill for players with a low skill cap.

If you are running a full heavy attack rotation, it is possible to sustain, yes. But why play as a Khajiit when as a Redguard you will be doing the damage AND have better sustain? In solo PvE like Maelstrom Khajiit is having a really hard time sustaining, and it is not even doing any more damage than other stamina races.

lel you sound like a Hodor [snip].

[Edited to remove profanity]

Rohamad_Ali

A rework has been needed after the nerfs . Going from a damage dealing race to a health regen race was an annoying change for me , having specced for burst damage initially . We need more damage in the current meta anyways .

Supernatural

wazzz56 wrote: »

let me catch you slipping in cyro while on my khajiit then see who is underpowered lol jk
But seriously though, they are fine...I have 5k weapon damage (buffed) 60 plus %crit and 1600 regn, wish my max was higher (33k) but I can suffice...hell I played him as a bomber and a heavy attack magblade for a while hitting 25k heavy attacks on (rip Clever)......tbh, unless you are doing hardcore end game pve stuff, you can make any race work for any class...gear and cp can make up for passives..again will not be optimal, but can be made to work

Of course any race can work for any class. But I am strictly talking from a hardcore end-game PvE and competitive PvP point of view.

RouDeR

Keep your hands off the Health recovery passive . Its the best passive in the game for health rec builds which ARE viable in PvP . U dirty PVErs have planty other race choices that offers high damage and sustain .

Doctordarkspawn

RouDeR wrote: »

Keep your hands off the Health recovery passive . Its the best passive in the game for health rec builds which ARE viable in PvP . U dirty PVErs have planty other race choices that offers high damage and sustain .

....I love it.

He comes here to *** at PVEers for being entitled when every patch has changed specifically for PVP, and spells like a three year old. Absolutely love it, ten out of ten.

wazzz56

Supernatural wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

let me catch you slipping in cyro while on my khajiit then see who is underpowered lol jk
But seriously though, they are fine...I have 5k weapon damage (buffed) 60 plus %crit and 1600 regn, wish my max was higher (33k) but I can suffice...hell I played him as a bomber and a heavy attack magblade for a while hitting 25k heavy attacks on (rip Clever)......tbh, unless you are doing hardcore end game pve stuff, you can make any race work for any class...gear and cp can make up for passives..again will not be optimal, but can be made to work

Of course any race can work for any class. But I am strictly talking from a hardcore end-game PvE and competitive PvP point of view. In these instances, Khajiit is weak when compared to other races is not an option.

again, let me catch you in cyro and tell me what you think
...it is perfectly fine for competitive pvp

RouDeR

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Keep your hands off the Health recovery passive . Its the best passive in the game for health rec builds which ARE viable in PvP . U dirty PVErs have planty other race choices that offers high damage and sustain .

....I love it.

He comes here to *** at PVEers for being entitled when every patch has changed specifically for PVP, and spells like a three year old. Absolutely love it, ten out of ten.

English is not my language so i dont care if spelling it like 3 year old . Also cuz of PVE , Caltrops got reworked and now its trash in PvP , bow attacks have been Strongly nerfed in damage output and we cannot hold our arrows anymore .

raviour

If you are good player you can play a Khajiit PvE healer in end game content. In PvP I do just fine on my Khajiits even if passives are a bit useless.

Khajiits took a blow when all the Redguards complained in PTS forum when ZOS were gonna buff kitty stam. Cats are cool and cool people play cats. We are not weak, just need a stroke sometimes but ZOS seem to be dog lovers.

Nerf destro ulti and buff 2h ulti, those PTS changes were terrible coz of whinges on forum. Also nerf hardened ward. Its OP and I wanna read sorcs crying again coz they can't streak through cyrodiil feeling invinsible.

ValkynSketha

Why is there even a game changing racials is beyond me, even in casual playing racials is a game changing, these stamina magicka racial bonuses should be removed from racials and replaced within armour passives or implemented in attributes points.

DisgracefulMind

Supernatural wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

let me catch you slipping in cyro while on my khajiit then see who is underpowered lol jk
But seriously though, they are fine...I have 5k weapon damage (buffed) 60 plus %crit and 1600 regn, wish my max was higher (33k) but I can suffice...hell I played him as a bomber and a heavy attack magblade for a while hitting 25k heavy attacks on (rip Clever)......tbh, unless you are doing hardcore end game pve stuff, you can make any race work for any class...gear and cp can make up for passives..again will not be optimal, but can be made to work

Of course any race can work for any class. But I am strictly talking from a hardcore end-game PvE and competitive PvP point of view. In these instances, Khajiit is weak when compared to other races is not an option.

lol wat

Supernatural

raviour wrote: »

If you are good player you can play a Khajiit PvE healer in end game content. In PvP I do just fine on my Khajiits even if passives are a bit useless.

Khajiits took a blow when all the Redguards complained in PTS forum when ZOS were gonna buff kitty stam. Cats are cool and cool people play cats. We are not weak, just need a stroke sometimes but ZOS seem to be dog lovers.

Nerf destro ulti and buff 2h ulti, those PTS changes were terrible coz of whinges on forum. Also nerf hardened ward. Its OP and I wanna read sorcs crying again coz they can't streak through cyrodiil feeling invinsible.

You are saying it yourself. The passives are useless. Yes, you can complete any content as a Khajiit, sure, but if there is not a single thing that Khajiit excels at, why pick it as a race apart from the nice looks? Every race excels at something. Wood Elf has insane stamina recovery, Redguard has high damage in the form of max stamina and strong sustain, Imperial has sturdy pools and Orc has unique utility. Every race must be good at something.

Urza1234

Khajiit racials are in a really akward place IMO.

20% Health Recovery
Not exactly sure what the health recovery is supposed to do for them, its the weakest stat in the game.
-In PvE you have a healer anyway, and 20% health recovery is pitiable compared to things like Argonian healing taken, and Nord damage resist, or any of the races with huge 9-10% HP bonuses. As any kind of DPS or healer main stat recovery translates into more health sustain, so they really dont need health recovery at all. As a tank %healing taken, health pool, and resists are far more important than pitiful amounts of health recovery.
-In PvP health recovery no longer bypasses Defile, so its pretty pointless there too.
-Lore wise I was not under the impression that khajiit were known for any kind of increased regenerative abilities, does anyone know if there is any sort of lore justification for Khajiit to receive this stat bonus?

Stealth Radius and Stealth Damage
Interesting for solo content and RP I guess? Really only useful for ganking people in PvP, and they keep nerfing stealth attacks because they're not fun for anyone other than the ganker. Its also kinda buggy and unreliable.

8% Weapon Crit
-Baseline crit damage is only 50%, so Crit Chance is pretty weak unless you spec specifically into crit, and it has no effect on shields, so its not that useful a lot of the time in pvp, and it also conflicts with their stealth passive because stealth attacks are guaranteed crits anyway.
-I would really like it if Khajiit got Spell crit as well, there are tons of khajiit caster npcs in the game, but you'd have to be pretty *** to make a khajiit caster as a player.

So.... I guess Khajiit are useful if you want to run a PvE stam-crit build...?

I'm honestly wondering why half of my characters are Khajiit, maybe I just have toxoplasmosis.

Doctordarkspawn

RouDeR wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Keep your hands off the Health recovery passive . Its the best passive in the game for health rec builds which ARE viable in PvP . U dirty PVErs have planty other race choices that offers high damage and sustain .

....I love it.

He comes here to *** at PVEers for being entitled when every patch has changed specifically for PVP, and spells like a three year old. Absolutely love it, ten out of ten.

English is not my language so i dont care if spelling it like 3 year old . Also cuz of PVE , Caltrops got reworked and now its trash in PvP , bow attacks have been Strongly nerfed in damage output and we cannot hold our arrows anymore .

And because of PVP, the sustain nerfs happened. I could go into more, but that is by far the biggest one.

Plus, no one in PVE was on board with any of the changes you listed. Thanks for playing.

wazzz56

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Keep your hands off the Health recovery passive . Its the best passive in the game for health rec builds which ARE viable in PvP . U dirty PVErs have planty other race choices that offers high damage and sustain .

....I love it.

He comes here to *** at PVEers for being entitled when every patch has changed specifically for PVP, and spells like a three year old. Absolutely love it, ten out of ten.

English is not my language so i dont care if spelling it like 3 year old . Also cuz of PVE , Caltrops got reworked and now its trash in PvP , bow attacks have been Strongly nerfed in damage output and we cannot hold our arrows anymore .

And because of PVP, the sustain nerfs happened.

Plus, no one in PVE was on board with any of the changes you listed. Thanks for playing.

because why make something more challenging? and why would Pver's complain and want nerfs? It is not like the mobs can cry about things being op.....it is not always the Pvpers fault, but Pvers love to point the fingers..you understand that a power creep unrestricted is bad for the game right?

Doctordarkspawn

wazzz56 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Keep your hands off the Health recovery passive . Its the best passive in the game for health rec builds which ARE viable in PvP . U dirty PVErs have planty other race choices that offers high damage and sustain .

....I love it.

He comes here to *** at PVEers for being entitled when every patch has changed specifically for PVP, and spells like a three year old. Absolutely love it, ten out of ten.

English is not my language so i dont care if spelling it like 3 year old . Also cuz of PVE , Caltrops got reworked and now its trash in PvP , bow attacks have been Strongly nerfed in damage output and we cannot hold our arrows anymore .

And because of PVP, the sustain nerfs happened.

Plus, no one in PVE was on board with any of the changes you listed. Thanks for playing.

because why make something more challenging? and why would Pver's complain and want nerfs? It is not like the mobs can cry about things being op.....it is not always the Pvpers fault, but Pvers love to point the fingers..you understand that a power creep unrestricted is bad for the game right?

I understand that one audience consistantly benefited from the sustain nerfs. The PVP crowd. Who had allways screamed and cried about the so called unkillable tanks that even after this, never went away. I understand one audience has applauded the sustain changes. The PVP crowd. Lets call a spade a spade and stop trying to delude ourselves.

If the intention was to kill power creep, this was the wrong way to do it. The sustain changes did nothing to combat power creep. The power creep lies completely at the feet of the CP system, which needs removed, and the cost for all things rebalanced, and likely lowered.

Hell, if we really wanna combat power creep, lets get rid of the Maelstrom, Master, and Clockwork weapons alltogether. Aside from that, oddly enough, usually the base game sets like hundings and such, have allways been the better gear options. A plethora of new sets have gone almost completely unused. The only place half of them would be power creep is....you guessed it, PVP.

Thanks for playing. This did nothing for power creep, it just pissed people off. You clearly do not know what you are talking about, and are unfit to be consulted on these matters.

Izaki

Agreed. I'd race change back to Khajiit anytime as soon as they make a change (if they do). Redguards are cool and all, but they lack the one essential factor: the swag of having a tail.

Supernatural

RouDeR wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Keep your hands off the Health recovery passive . Its the best passive in the game for health rec builds which ARE viable in PvP . U dirty PVErs have planty other race choices that offers high damage and sustain .

....I love it.

He comes here to *** at PVEers for being entitled when every patch has changed specifically for PVP, and spells like a three year old. Absolutely love it, ten out of ten.

English is not my language so i dont care if spelling it like 3 year old . Also cuz of PVE , Caltrops got reworked and now its trash in PvP , bow attacks have been Strongly nerfed in damage output and we cannot hold our arrows anymore .

How are caltrops trash in PvP? They do much more damage, are much cheaper and can be stacked by many players. They are actually much stronger now. And the reason bow heavy attacks cannot be held anymore is because of ganking, not because of PvE.

wazzz56

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Keep your hands off the Health recovery passive . Its the best passive in the game for health rec builds which ARE viable in PvP . U dirty PVErs have planty other race choices that offers high damage and sustain .

....I love it.

He comes here to *** at PVEers for being entitled when every patch has changed specifically for PVP, and spells like a three year old. Absolutely love it, ten out of ten.

English is not my language so i dont care if spelling it like 3 year old . Also cuz of PVE , Caltrops got reworked and now its trash in PvP , bow attacks have been Strongly nerfed in damage output and we cannot hold our arrows anymore .

And because of PVP, the sustain nerfs happened.

Plus, no one in PVE was on board with any of the changes you listed. Thanks for playing.

because why make something more challenging? and why would Pver's complain and want nerfs? It is not like the mobs can cry about things being op.....it is not always the Pvpers fault, but Pvers love to point the fingers..you understand that a power creep unrestricted is bad for the game right?

I understand that one audience consistantly benefited from the sustain nerfs. The PVP crowd. Who had allways screamed and cried about the so called unkillable tanks that even after this, never went away. I understand one audience has applauded the sustain changes. The PVP crowd. Lets call a spade a spade and stop trying to delude ourselves.

If the intention was to kill power creep, this was the wrong way to do it. The sustain changes did nothing to combat power creep. The power creep lies completely at the feet of the CP system, which needs removed, and the cost for all things rebalanced, and likely lowered.

Hell, if we really wanna combat power creep, lets get rid of the Maelstrom, Master, and Clockwork weapons alltogether. Aside from that, oddly enough, usually the base game sets like hundings and such, have allways been the better gear options. A plethora of new sets have gone almost completely unused. The only place half of them would be power creep is....you guessed it, PVP.

Thanks for playing. This did nothing for power creep, it just pissed people off. You clearly do not know what you are talking about, and are unfit to be consulted on these matters.

I am sorry things are not quite as easy for you..but at least you did not come off as a pompous, entitled pver..oh wait you did a bit... you must not play much pvp ..because I have never heard people really cheer to hard about the sustain nerfs..so echoing you,.....you are clearly unfit to be consulted as you seemingly have little pvp savy or know how....but hey, you made a valiant effort..thanks for playing.......

SodanTok

Arent Khajiit 2nd best stam race in PVE?
But they are the worst PVP race indeed.

Personally both races with sneak damage (bosmer, khajiit) are in disadvantage when not using it (so not ganking or RP)

Supernatural wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Keep your hands off the Health recovery passive . Its the best passive in the game for health rec builds which ARE viable in PvP . U dirty PVErs have planty other race choices that offers high damage and sustain .

....I love it.

He comes here to *** at PVEers for being entitled when every patch has changed specifically for PVP, and spells like a three year old. Absolutely love it, ten out of ten.

English is not my language so i dont care if spelling it like 3 year old . Also cuz of PVE , Caltrops got reworked and now its trash in PvP , bow attacks have been Strongly nerfed in damage output and we cannot hold our arrows anymore .

How are caltrops trash in PvP? They do much more damage, are much cheaper and can be stacked by many players. They are actually much stronger now. And the reason bow heavy attacks cannot be held anymore is because of ganking, not because of PvE.

Bow heavy attacks are because of PVE

Supernatural

The only place where it's worth charging heavy attacks with a Bow in PvE is Maelstrom Arena, which is hardly a reason for a nerf like that. Other than that, in trials it would be a huge DPS, as they take way too long to charge.