Anyone else notice how un-magical the altmer are?

psychotrip

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Mages dont really deal with daedra. Sorcerers do. Theres a difference there.

Mages
Wizards
Sorcerers
Necromancers


They arent the same, but yet arent completely different either.

Mages create spells.
Wizards use spells.
Sorcerers are knowledgeable in Forbidden Knowledge.
Necromancers summon spirits and raise the dead.

As for the lack of magic. Its possible because of Auridons location that it has historically been more of a place of warriors, trades and simpler folk. A threat from Tamriel would likely land in Auridon first and so the island is a little more militaristic and its people mostly coming from that caste, but if any sort of goods and trade was to come from Tamriel....it too would land in Auridon first. So you probably get a group of people there that arent really absolutely true to the Altmer status quo you might find on Summerset.

That's...that's not how it works in The Elder Scrolls at all though dude...

Look up the classes in every game. If you think that's just game mechanics, go back to Morrowind and ask people about mages. Mages study all the schools of magic.

Sorcerers, in Elder Scrolls lore, are mages that focus most on enchantments and summonings. They often enchant heavy armor, which is why many of them are trained in the use of it. Mages balance all forms of magic, including summoning. Including necromancy. This guy is just one example. Play through the Morrowind Mage's Guild questline sometime. In general, mages have no problem with it and think those that do are backwards religious zealots. Now, it's been explicitly stated that altmer have a problem with necromancy, at least on other elves, but some elite altmer have been allowed to study it for the purpose of life extending magic. You'll also notice that the thalmor in Skyrim never use resurrection spells. Nothing in previous lore stated altmer had anything against summoning daedra.

You're ignoring the fact that altmer in every single previous game have summoned daedra. Even in Skyrim. I'm sorry but there's no way around this.

I never said there isnt crossover here. Just simply pointing out the argument that a Mage by definition does not summon daedra. Someone that has crossed over into Sorcery does.

I never said all mages do either, but all mages are skilled in all the schools of magic by definition. "Crossing into sorcery" isn't really even a thing in The Elder Scrolls. A sorcerer is just a mage who focuses most on enchantments, summoning, and hoarding and using magical treasures. That's the real distinguishing factor. Mages are the balanced magic class, sorcerers focus more on some things than others.

But again we're getting off topic:

You're ignoring the fact that altmer in every single previous game have summoned daedra. Even in Skyrim. I'm sorry but there's no way around this. Zenimax is claiming something that makes absolutely no sense.

Youre ignoring every other post that has ripped your flawed opinions to shreds to focus in on these "off topic" posts. You seem quite upset that people arent patting you on the back for bashing ZOS which is the real intent of this topic.

Jesus I guess I pressed your buttons.

I've tried to respond to every post, but I've been pretty busy these past few days. Still, I haven't seen any real answer as to how the images I listed above make any sense. To me, it seems like people are doing their best to extrapolate upon what was said or create some head-canon to fill in the gaps. At the end of the day, Merormo said no true altmer would ever summon a daedra, and seemed to imply the penalty was a death sentence. The last part is, I guess, slightly up for interpretation, but the former really isn't. He didn't qualify this statement, he didn't list any exceptions, he even explicitly says that summoning something as simple as an atronach was forbidden. This doesn't make any sense if you've played any of the previous games.

If you don't want to discuss this then...I mean...why are you here? No one is forcing you to comment here. Leave the discussion to the rest of us.

Nope, you're wrong. Look at the context. And look at how the quest ends. He does include atronachs with the words "at least", so it's atronachs and dudes above. Not scamps and such. Then again, just because he thinks so, doesn't mean everyone thinks so. It's not altmer who hate daedra, it's him. Altmer (according to him again) only hate bargaining with daedra, and that obviously means intelligent daedra who can bargain. Stop mixing things.

Sorry, but didn't he say, "To even consider summoning one of those monsters. It'd be inviting a death sentence".

And "The atronachs at least, they're more constructs but...no, a death sentence". Without context, this could be interpreted differently, but in the context of the quest where everyone is saying summoning or trafficking with daedra in any form is forbidden, it really paints a weird picture, doesn't it? Also, considering the datamine some of you guys referenced specifically mention altmer using daedra to tend to Summerset and terraform it, it seems like a contradiction.

Also, note that previous lore shows that trafficking with daedra is at least tolerated by the altmer, even those of Alinor. The book "liminal bridges" seems to indicate this.

"Therefore, since both the morpholiths and the daedric sigils required for hyperagonal media cannot be obtained without traffic and commerce with Daedra Lords, it is necessary that a transliminal mechanic cultivate a working knowledge of conjuration -- though purpose-built enchantments may be substituted if the mechanic has sufficient invocatory skill. Traffic and commerce with Daedra Lords is an esoteric but well-established practice, and lies outside the compass of this treatise.[1]
Presuming a sigil stone has been acquired, the transliminal mechanic must first prepare the morpholith to receive the daedric sigil."

She goes on to reference other, apparently altmer, texts on the matter of daedra traffick:

"[1] Interested students are invited to consult the works of Albrecht Theophannes Bombidius and Galerion The Mystic for the fundaments of this discipline.
[2] Recommended examples of the conjurational charter may be found in Therion's Book of Most Arcane Covenants or Ralliballah's Eleven Ritual Forms."

Based on this, I always got the sense that altmer wizards weren't afraid of working with daedra in their research. Clearly, I was wrong, but I always liked that sort of edge altmer were given in the lore. They're callous, elitist, cold, but extremely scientific and intelligent-minded, and look down on lesser races for their superstitions. I just loved how it seemed like this sort of "dark" magic was normal to them, and just another part of their scientific approach to magic.

But even if we move on from the daedra thing, I was still very disappointed by Auridon and the entire portayal of the altmer. They just seem so mundane and boring compared to all the other elven races.

I guess that's what this all comes down to for me. I'm learning more about the altmer and it's just not what I was expecting / hoping for. I should note that the only reason I keep pushing that "altmer hate summoning daedra" thing is because the last time I made a post about altmer, everyone told me I was wrong about them and used those images to "prove" that altmer never summon daedra. I actually made a whole post about that awesome summerset datamine, and people were saying I was making it up because it doesn't make any sense with the way altmer are portrayed in ESO.

Again, I understand I'm in the minority here. Clearly most people prefer the way altmer were portrayed in ESO vs. previous lore. I still welcome this conversation and debate though and I hope we can remain civil.

FoolishHuman

You are the one making up head canon here. What's in the game is canon and the last game trumps the previous ones. In arena there were daemons coming from the netherworld and orcs were related to goblins. Should that be the official canon still?

You should also recognize that there are some limitations when creating a 3d enviornment in a video game in contrast to just writing a text about how magical the cities look. This isn't a game just on summerset, they had to split their resources to make all areas look good. In fact the big summerset isle is not really in the game yet, probably because they knew they wouldn't be able to make like in the texts. You should just wait and see if a future expansion can give you what you wish.

psychotrip

FoolishHuman wrote: »

You are the one making up head canon here. What's in the game is canon and the last game trumps the previous ones. In arena there were daemons coming from the netherworld and orcs were related to goblins. Should that be the official canon still?

You should also recognize that there are some limitations when creating a 3d enviornment in a video game in contrast to just writing a text about how magical the cities look. This isn't a game just on summerset, they had to split their resources to make all areas look good. In fact the big summerset isle is not really in the game yet, probably because they knew they wouldn't be able to make like in the texts. You should just wait and see if a future expansion can give you what you wish.

You know, you're 100% right. Again, I'm realizing now that I just don't like the altmer. What Zenimax does is canon and I just have to accept it.

I get what you're saying about game limitations, but even then I honestly felt other zones were done so much better than Auridon was. They didn't have to sacrifice the uniqueness of other races for the sake of game limitations, at least not to the same extent. Valenwood was fascinating for example. I really felt like they gave it their all to make the bosmer interesting and move them away from the typical "wood elf" cliches you see so much. The altmer just didn't get that sort of love in my opinion, and I don't know why.

Like I said in the last post, I actually agreed with a lot of you guys a while back, that the main island of Summerset would be much more magical and that the datamine was at least semi-canon. But the last time I brought it up, people told me I was making it up, or said it was non-canon, and even cited the same images I'm using now to "prove" that altmer despise daedra summoning and are wary of magic. I really don't know what to believe about them anymore, but in general I just don't find them very interesting. Maybe I'll be proven wrong when the new summerset expansion comes out. I honestly want to be wrong.

I guess when you get invested in a franchise you tend to get a bit worked up over things you know? The entire reason I liked altmer turned out to be completely off-base and I was 100% wrong about them. It's a little depressing, but again that's the way things are. I just really don't like the typical high elf tropes and I really enjoyed how The Elder Scrolls seemed to stray from them to create something unique. In reality, that just wasn't the case. I guess I understand why dunmer are so popular and why so many people dislike the altmer. They're just so...normal and boring.

So in short, sorry if I came off like a *** in any part of this thread. I fully admit that The Elder Scrolls is the only thing in the gaming industry that makes me this cynical and surly. I'm just one of those people who grew up with the series, had a perception of the lore, and can't really accept that my perception was wrong.

EvilAutoTech

Don't give up on the Altmer yet, they have 700 years or so to become edgy, evil bast@rds.

psychotrip

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

Don't give up on the Altmer yet, they have 700 years or so to become edgy, evil bast@rds.

I guess. Just wish we got to see a bit more of it in ESO itself. Who knows, maybe the mainland will be completely and totally different from Auridon.