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Anyone else notice how un-magical the altmer are?
psychotrip
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This is totally random I know, but it's been bothering me for a while. I was playing through Morrowind, exploring the weird, alien, often magical culture of the dunmer when I began to notice this.
After teleporting from Vvardenfell to Vulkhel Guard, it really started to set in: the altmer aren't very magical are they?
Previous descriptions described altmer culture as inherently magical. They're supposedly advanced in both magic and science, and their cities are described as being grand, magical and alien. Meanwhile in ESO, altmer society on Auridon seems positively mundane. Boring stone cities, citizens who seem terrified of mages. There seems to be far more warriors in altmeri culture than wizards.
Altmer Sorcerer players in ESO, and even the justiciars in Skyrim summon daedra frequently. According to previous games, altmer use necromancy to keep themselves young. Yet in ESO, the altmer seem completely closed-minded and backwards when it comes to these practices. I've even had roleplayers tell me that altmer despise those who summon daedra. At the very least, the player perception of these people seems to have completely shifted toward something far more boring and mundane.
Altmer are supposed to be the most magically advanced society in the world. Their entire playstyle is based on magic, and yet it seems Zenimax had no interest in displaying this. Sometimes I wonder why Zenimax is so eager to allow other races to be strange and unique, but insist on toning down everything interesting about the altmer.
I know the argument we always come back to is "multiple interpretations" and "transcription errors", but I still feel like altmer deserve better than this. Compared to anywhere else in Tamriel, what makes Altmer culture magical at all?
Edit: Here's sort of what I'm talking about in regards to how shy altmer seem to be around magic. Apparently the entire school of conjuration is evil to them and no true altmer would ever summon a daedra, even an atronach. It's a death sentence apparently...And yet altmer have been doing this in every single game we've seen including the Thalmor in Skyrim. Did this "law" just get abolished after the second era? And what about the entire sorcerer class revolves around daedric magic. What sort of narrative dissonance is this?
I always expected altmer to be masters of magic, snobby elitist nerds who look down on the lesser races for their superstitious fear of power. Lines like these really destroy my love for the altmer and ruin everything I thought they were about.
Edit Again: In response to @FoolishHuman, I admit I was completely off-base with a lot of this:
You know, you're 100% right. Again, I'm realizing now that I just don't like the altmer. What Zenimax does is canon and I just have to accept it.
I get what you're saying about game limitations, but even then I honestly felt other zones were done so much better than Auridon was. They didn't have to sacrifice the uniqueness of other races for the sake of game limitations, at least not to the same extent. Valenwood was fascinating for example. I really felt like they gave it their all to make the bosmer interesting and move them away from the typical "wood elf" cliches you see so much. The altmer just didn't get that sort of love in my opinion, and I don't know why.
Like I said in the last post, I actually agreed with a lot of you guys a while back, that the main island of Summerset would be much more magical and that the datamine was at least semi-canon. But the last time I brought it up, people told me I was making it up, or said it was non-canon, and even cited the same images I'm using now to "prove" that altmer despise daedra summoning and are wary of magic. I really don't know what to believe about them anymore, but in general I just don't find them very interesting. Maybe I'll be proven wrong when the new summerset expansion comes out. I honestly want to be wrong.
I guess when you get invested in a franchise you tend to get a bit worked up over things you know? The entire reason I liked altmer turned out to be completely off-base and I was 100% wrong about them. It's a little depressing, but again that's the way things are. I just really don't like the typical high elf tropes and I really enjoyed how The Elder Scrolls seemed to stray from them to create something unique. In reality, that just wasn't the case. I guess I understand why dunmer are so popular and why so many people dislike the altmer. They're just so...normal and boring.
So in short, sorry if I came off like a *** in any part of this thread. I fully admit that The Elder Scrolls is the only thing in the gaming industry that makes me this cynical and surly. I'm just one of those people who grew up with the series, had a perception of the lore, and can't really accept that my perception was wrong.
Edited by psychotrip on September 29, 2017 8:39PM After teleporting from Vvardenfell to Vulkhel Guard, it really started to set in: the altmer aren't very magical are they?
Previous descriptions described altmer culture as inherently magical. They're supposedly advanced in both magic and science, and their cities are described as being grand, magical and alien. Meanwhile in ESO, altmer society on Auridon seems positively mundane. Boring stone cities, citizens who seem terrified of mages. There seems to be far more warriors in altmeri culture than wizards.
Altmer Sorcerer players in ESO, and even the justiciars in Skyrim summon daedra frequently. According to previous games, altmer use necromancy to keep themselves young. Yet in ESO, the altmer seem completely closed-minded and backwards when it comes to these practices. I've even had roleplayers tell me that altmer despise those who summon daedra. At the very least, the player perception of these people seems to have completely shifted toward something far more boring and mundane.
Altmer are supposed to be the most magically advanced society in the world. Their entire playstyle is based on magic, and yet it seems Zenimax had no interest in displaying this. Sometimes I wonder why Zenimax is so eager to allow other races to be strange and unique, but insist on toning down everything interesting about the altmer.
I know the argument we always come back to is "multiple interpretations" and "transcription errors", but I still feel like altmer deserve better than this. Compared to anywhere else in Tamriel, what makes Altmer culture magical at all?
Edit: Here's sort of what I'm talking about in regards to how shy altmer seem to be around magic. Apparently the entire school of conjuration is evil to them and no true altmer would ever summon a daedra, even an atronach. It's a death sentence apparently...And yet altmer have been doing this in every single game we've seen including the Thalmor in Skyrim. Did this "law" just get abolished after the second era? And what about the entire sorcerer class revolves around daedric magic. What sort of narrative dissonance is this?
I always expected altmer to be masters of magic, snobby elitist nerds who look down on the lesser races for their superstitious fear of power. Lines like these really destroy my love for the altmer and ruin everything I thought they were about.
Edit Again: In response to @FoolishHuman, I admit I was completely off-base with a lot of this:
FoolishHuman wrote: »You are the one making up head canon here. What's in the game is canon and the last game trumps the previous ones. In arena there were daemons coming from the netherworld and orcs were related to goblins. Should that be the official canon still?
You should also recognize that there are some limitations when creating a 3d enviornment in a video game in contrast to just writing a text about how magical the cities look. This isn't a game just on summerset, they had to split their resources to make all areas look good. In fact the big summerset isle is not really in the game yet, probably because they knew they wouldn't be able to make like in the texts. You should just wait and see if a future expansion can give you what you wish.
You know, you're 100% right. Again, I'm realizing now that I just don't like the altmer. What Zenimax does is canon and I just have to accept it.
I get what you're saying about game limitations, but even then I honestly felt other zones were done so much better than Auridon was. They didn't have to sacrifice the uniqueness of other races for the sake of game limitations, at least not to the same extent. Valenwood was fascinating for example. I really felt like they gave it their all to make the bosmer interesting and move them away from the typical "wood elf" cliches you see so much. The altmer just didn't get that sort of love in my opinion, and I don't know why.
Like I said in the last post, I actually agreed with a lot of you guys a while back, that the main island of Summerset would be much more magical and that the datamine was at least semi-canon. But the last time I brought it up, people told me I was making it up, or said it was non-canon, and even cited the same images I'm using now to "prove" that altmer despise daedra summoning and are wary of magic. I really don't know what to believe about them anymore, but in general I just don't find them very interesting. Maybe I'll be proven wrong when the new summerset expansion comes out. I honestly want to be wrong.
I guess when you get invested in a franchise you tend to get a bit worked up over things you know? The entire reason I liked altmer turned out to be completely off-base and I was 100% wrong about them. It's a little depressing, but again that's the way things are. I just really don't like the typical high elf tropes and I really enjoyed how The Elder Scrolls seemed to stray from them to create something unique. In reality, that just wasn't the case. I guess I understand why dunmer are so popular and why so many people dislike the altmer. They're just so...normal and boring.
So in short, sorry if I came off like a *** in any part of this thread. I fully admit that The Elder Scrolls is the only thing in the gaming industry that makes me this cynical and surly. I'm just one of those people who grew up with the series, had a perception of the lore, and can't really accept that my perception was wrong.
No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
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Lone_Wolf✭✭✭The larger island of the Summerset isles is often told as having the most grand cities and what not.
As for player characters...well when you game advertises "play how you want" and there's a war going on. War is better fought with swords than with magic. Why bother sending your scientists and best scholars and magick users to fight when you can send the less skilled and those without much magical aptitude to fight for you?
Borrowing some lore from the early 4th era, even with all their magicks and "advanced science" they still met their match with the Imperial legion at the Imperial city.6 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭The second largest of the Summerset Isles, Auridon has always served the High Elves as a buffer between their serene archipelago and the turmoil of Tamriel. The Altmer of Auridon have been hardened by generations of repelling invaders, pirates, and plagues.6 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭The second largest of the Summerset Isles, Auridon has always served the High Elves as a buffer between their serene archipelago and the turmoil of Tamriel. The Altmer of Auridon have been hardened by generations of repelling invaders, pirates, and plagues.
Again though, this is just something Zenimax made up. They chose to portray Auridon this way. The coasts of the larger island have been under constant assault from sload and maormer as well. Altmer have always had to rebuild and fight off foreign enemies. None of the previous lore states that one island is inexplicably less magical than the other. Why, from a design standpoint, would you do this?Edited by psychotrip on September 28, 2017 7:31PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.1 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭That's how lore works, didn't you know? None of the previous lore said that jungle in cyrodiil is just a translation mistake.
None of the previous lore states that one island is not inexplicably less magical than the other.0 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭The larger island of the Summerset isles is often told as having the most grand cities and what not.
As for player characters...well when you game advertises "play how you want" and there's a war going on. War is better fought with swords than with magic. Why bother sending your scientists and best scholars and magick users to fight when you can send the less skilled and those without much magical aptitude to fight for you?
Borrowing some lore from the early 4th era, even with all their magicks and "advanced science" they still met their match with the Imperial legion at the Imperial city.
I'm not talking about player characters being warriors. I mean the npcs in the game. Auridon is very warrior heavy in terms of characters.
And I think you're underestimating the sheer size and power of the Legion. Or the fact that men outnumber mer by a longshot. It's the same reason the ayleids, the dunmer, and all mer races have ben defeated by men in the past. It doesn't mean they're not magically advanced.No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.3 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭That's how lore works, didn't you know? None of the previous lore said that jungle in cyrodiil is just a translation mistake.
None of the previous lore states that one island is not inexplicably less magical than the other.
That's kind of my point though. I'm not questioning whether or not this is a contradiction. I'm questioning the actual choices Zenimax is making that cause all the altmer we've seen so far to be so mundane. Why did they decide to make Auridon so mundane and non-magical? We also get no indication in ESO that the other island is any different. Ayrenn is just as mundane and "normal" as everyone on Auridon.
Speaking of Ayrenn, I always assumed an altmer high-queen would be a bit more...I don't know...mystical? Powerful? I was imagining something more like Galadriel and less warrior-princess.Edited by psychotrip on September 28, 2017 7:38PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.3 -
Spacemonkey✭✭✭✭✭My take on it is that Altmer are more into 'cookie-cutter' magic. Prolonging your life, making a wall magically stronger, using magic as a tool, etc.... maybe a lot of spirit/dream stuff like we often see in eso quests.
The Dunmer (the whole point of their Chimer origins) is that they follow daedric princes (or used too before 3 of em decided to make themselves half-gods). That gives birth to a lot of wacky stuff. The Telvanni are probably the craziest as they basically dedicate their lives to the pursuit of magical power.
Also dont forget that Auridon, is a buffer island between Tamriel and the Summerset Isles. Chances are the crazy magical-crystal-cities are only on summerset, not on that one territory of the Altmer that constantly harbors all sorts of 'inferior' races and etc...3 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭Spacemonkey wrote: »My take on it is that Altmer are more into 'cookie-cutter' magic. Prolonging your life, making a wall magically stronger, using magic as a tool, etc.... maybe a lot of spirit/dream stuff like we often see in eso quests.
The Dunmer (the whole point of their Chimer origins) is that they follow daedric princes (or used too before 3 of em decided to make themselves half-gods). That gives birth to a lot of wacky stuff. The Telvanni are probably the craziest as they basically dedicate their lives to the pursuit of magical power.
Also dont forget that Auridon, is a buffer island between Tamriel and the Summerset Isles. Chances are the crazy magical-crystal-cities are only on summerset, not on that one territory of the Altmer that constantly harbors all sorts of 'inferior' races and etc...
Again though, this comes back to my main point: why is Zenimax making these choices?
Why did they choose to make the only part of Summerset we see so mundane?
Why did they choose to make altmer focus on "cookie cutter" magic?
They had no much creativity to work with and this is what we got? I'm sorry, it's just such a slap in the face to me when I see almost every other race get something cool and creative and we're left with...I mean I'm just gonna say it: the elves in Lord Of The Rings are more unique than the altmer at this point. The High Elves from Warhammer are more interesting. The altmer were always my favorite race since I was a little kid. It's like they just sucked the fun out of them.Edited by psychotrip on September 28, 2017 7:46PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »That's how lore works, didn't you know? None of the previous lore said that jungle in cyrodiil is just a translation mistake.
None of the previous lore states that one island is not inexplicably less magical than the other.
That's kind of my point though. I'm not questioning whether or not this is a contradiction. I'm questioning the actual choices Zenimax is making that cause all the altmer we've seen so far to be so mundane. Why did they decide to make Auridon so mundane and non-magical?
because The second largest of the Summerset Isles, Auridon has always served the High Elves as a buffer between their serene archipelago and the turmoil of Tamriel. The Altmer of Auridon have been hardened by generations of repelling invaders, pirates, and plagues.
Which makes sense. Gotta protect the mainland.
Oh, also cause maybe it's easier. Or that was the best they came up with. Not sure what type of answer you're expecting, but good luck with that. Maybe the loremaster will write his 5th comment since release, but I doubt it. Can't spend his only comment this year on that. It has to be one comment a year, after all, or so it seems.0 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »That's how lore works, didn't you know? None of the previous lore said that jungle in cyrodiil is just a translation mistake.
None of the previous lore states that one island is not inexplicably less magical than the other.
That's kind of my point though. I'm not questioning whether or not this is a contradiction. I'm questioning the actual choices Zenimax is making that cause all the altmer we've seen so far to be so mundane. Why did they decide to make Auridon so mundane and non-magical?
because The second largest of the Summerset Isles, Auridon has always served the High Elves as a buffer between their serene archipelago and the turmoil of Tamriel. The Altmer of Auridon have been hardened by generations of repelling invaders, pirates, and plagues.
Which makes sense. Gotta protect the mainland.
Oh, also cause maybe it's easier. Or that was the best they came up with. Not sure what type of answer you're expecting, but good luck with that. Maybe the loremaster will write his 5th comment since release, but I doubt it. Can't spend his only comment this year on that. It has to be one comment a year, after all, or so it seems.
What does Auridon being a "buffer zone" have to do with the culture and magical nature of the people who live there? As I've said before, all of Summerset has been threatened by foreign invaders. There's attacks on the southwestern coast constantly from maormer and sload.
This has nothing to do with the altmer, for some reason, inexplicably being shy about magic and altogether mundane on Auridon. If anything, wouldn't this just make the altmer spend more resources and use more magic to protect their home? I don't see the connection, and even if I did this was still Zenimax's decision to make, and they went with the most boring decision possible.Edited by psychotrip on September 28, 2017 7:48PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »That's how lore works, didn't you know? None of the previous lore said that jungle in cyrodiil is just a translation mistake.
None of the previous lore states that one island is not inexplicably less magical than the other.
That's kind of my point though. I'm not questioning whether or not this is a contradiction. I'm questioning the actual choices Zenimax is making that cause all the altmer we've seen so far to be so mundane. Why did they decide to make Auridon so mundane and non-magical?
because The second largest of the Summerset Isles, Auridon has always served the High Elves as a buffer between their serene archipelago and the turmoil of Tamriel. The Altmer of Auridon have been hardened by generations of repelling invaders, pirates, and plagues.
Which makes sense. Gotta protect the mainland.
Oh, also cause maybe it's easier. Or that was the best they came up with. Not sure what type of answer you're expecting, but good luck with that. Maybe the loremaster will write his 5th comment since release, but I doubt it. Can't spend his only comment this year on that. It has to be one comment a year, after all, or so it seems.
I dont think it was just because it was easier. I mean look at grahtwood, or greenshade, or malabl tor, or repeares march, all those places are downright stunning. Auridon has just been constantly at war for so long, any place that has been at war for a certain period of time is generally not so glamarous.0 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »That's how lore works, didn't you know? None of the previous lore said that jungle in cyrodiil is just a translation mistake.
None of the previous lore states that one island is not inexplicably less magical than the other.
That's kind of my point though. I'm not questioning whether or not this is a contradiction. I'm questioning the actual choices Zenimax is making that cause all the altmer we've seen so far to be so mundane. Why did they decide to make Auridon so mundane and non-magical?
because The second largest of the Summerset Isles, Auridon has always served the High Elves as a buffer between their serene archipelago and the turmoil of Tamriel. The Altmer of Auridon have been hardened by generations of repelling invaders, pirates, and plagues.
Which makes sense. Gotta protect the mainland.
Oh, also cause maybe it's easier. Or that was the best they came up with. Not sure what type of answer you're expecting, but good luck with that. Maybe the loremaster will write his 5th comment since release, but I doubt it. Can't spend his only comment this year on that. It has to be one comment a year, after all, or so it seems.
What does Auridon being a "buffer zone" have to do with the culture and magical nature of the people who live there? As I've said before, all of Summerset has been threatened by foreign invaders. There's attacks on the southwestern coast constantly from maormer and sload.
This has nothing to do with the altmer, for some reason, inexplicably being shy about magic and altogether mundane on Auridon. If anything, wouldn't this just make the altmer spend more resources and use more magic to protect their home? I don't see the connection, and even if I did this was still Zenimax's decision to make, and they went with the most boring decision possible.
Some of the most powerful mages are the most modest. Altmer are generally more modest. Pompous, but modest.0 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »That's how lore works, didn't you know? None of the previous lore said that jungle in cyrodiil is just a translation mistake.
None of the previous lore states that one island is not inexplicably less magical than the other.
That's kind of my point though. I'm not questioning whether or not this is a contradiction. I'm questioning the actual choices Zenimax is making that cause all the altmer we've seen so far to be so mundane. Why did they decide to make Auridon so mundane and non-magical?
because The second largest of the Summerset Isles, Auridon has always served the High Elves as a buffer between their serene archipelago and the turmoil of Tamriel. The Altmer of Auridon have been hardened by generations of repelling invaders, pirates, and plagues.
Which makes sense. Gotta protect the mainland.
Oh, also cause maybe it's easier. Or that was the best they came up with. Not sure what type of answer you're expecting, but good luck with that. Maybe the loremaster will write his 5th comment since release, but I doubt it. Can't spend his only comment this year on that. It has to be one comment a year, after all, or so it seems.
I dont think it was just because it was easier. I mean look at grahtwood, or greenshade, or malabl tor, or repeares march, all those places are downright stunning. Auridon has just been constantly at war for so long, any place that has been at war for a certain period of time is generally not so glamarous.
Reaper's March is called Reaper's March because it's constantly at war. I just don't buy this as an excuse for Auridon. If they wanted to make it look war-torn, they could've still made it look magical and interesting, they could have still made the people magical and interesting, but they didn't.
Imagine if a ruined city in Auridon was an almost radioactive magical hazard, because all the magicka-based machinery was malfunctioning. Imagine if altmer refugees were warping into crystalline magical mutants and you needed to fight them off or even cure them for a quest. Imagine if malachite or adamantium golems were tasked with protecting the island, or reparing the constant damage. Imagine if Auridon really was a war-torn, magically advanced society under constant attack from foreign invaders. There are more creative ways to do this than what we got. I just don't buy the "buffer zone" or "war-torn" theory. Like you said, the bosmer zones are much more interesting and creative. I'm honestly starting to think Zenimax just doesn't know what to do with the altmer.Edited by psychotrip on September 28, 2017 7:55PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.1 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »That's how lore works, didn't you know? None of the previous lore said that jungle in cyrodiil is just a translation mistake.
None of the previous lore states that one island is not inexplicably less magical than the other.
That's kind of my point though. I'm not questioning whether or not this is a contradiction. I'm questioning the actual choices Zenimax is making that cause all the altmer we've seen so far to be so mundane. Why did they decide to make Auridon so mundane and non-magical?
because The second largest of the Summerset Isles, Auridon has always served the High Elves as a buffer between their serene archipelago and the turmoil of Tamriel. The Altmer of Auridon have been hardened by generations of repelling invaders, pirates, and plagues.
Which makes sense. Gotta protect the mainland.
Oh, also cause maybe it's easier. Or that was the best they came up with. Not sure what type of answer you're expecting, but good luck with that. Maybe the loremaster will write his 5th comment since release, but I doubt it. Can't spend his only comment this year on that. It has to be one comment a year, after all, or so it seems.
I dont think it was just because it was easier. I mean look at grahtwood, or greenshade, or malabl tor, or repeares march, all those places are downright stunning. Auridon has just been constantly at war for so long, any place that has been at war for a certain period of time is generally not so glamarous.
Reaper's March is called Reaper's March because it's constantly at war. I just don't buy this as an excuse for Auridon. If they wanted to make it look war-torn, they could've still made it look magical and interesting, they could have still made the people magical and interesting, but they didn't.
Imagine if a ruined city in Auridon was an almost radioactive magical hazard, because all the magicka-based machinery was malfunctioning. Imagine if altmer refugees were warping into crystalline magical mutants and you needed to fight them off or even cure them for a quest. Imagine if malachite or adamantium golems were tasked with protecting the island, or reparing the constant damage. Imagine if Auridon really was a war-torn, magically advanced society under constant attack from foreign invaders. There are more creative ways to do this than what we got. I just don't buy the "buffer zone" or "war-torn" theory. Like you said, the bosmer zones are much more interesting and creative. I'm honestly starting to think Zenimax just doesn't know what to do with the altmer.
Thats the thing though altmer, and most mer in fact do not use magical machinery. That was the dwemer. They preach conservative use of magic, they always have. Also, I really have no issue with Auridon, I thought it was well done : shrug : . Altmer are very, VERY conservative, whereas the bosmer, or dunmer are a bit more eccentric.2 -
jlboozer✭✭✭✭✭
✭You couldn't get more magical than the Psijic, and they're Altmer...you haven't seen everything yet, remember that2 -
Spacemonkey✭✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »Spacemonkey wrote: »My take on it is that Altmer are more into 'cookie-cutter' magic. Prolonging your life, making a wall magically stronger, using magic as a tool, etc.... maybe a lot of spirit/dream stuff like we often see in eso quests.
The Dunmer (the whole point of their Chimer origins) is that they follow daedric princes (or used too before 3 of em decided to make themselves half-gods). That gives birth to a lot of wacky stuff. The Telvanni are probably the craziest as they basically dedicate their lives to the pursuit of magical power.
Also dont forget that Auridon, is a buffer island between Tamriel and the Summerset Isles. Chances are the crazy magical-crystal-cities are only on summerset, not on that one territory of the Altmer that constantly harbors all sorts of 'inferior' races and etc...
Again though, this comes back to my main point: why is Zenimax making these choices?
Why did they choose to make the only part of Summerset we see so mundane?
Why did they choose to make altmer focus on "cookie cutter" magic?
They had no much creativity to work with and this is what we got? I'm sorry, it's just such a slap in the face to me when I see almost every other race get something cool and creative and we're left with...I mean I'm just gonna say it: the elves in Lord Of The Rings are more unique than the altmer at this point. The High Elves from Warhammer are more interesting. The altmer were always my favorite race since I was a little kid. It's like they just sucked the fun out of them.
Well if you don't want lore reasons but ZOS reasons, really only they could tell you. My guess would be however that of the vanilla game, all 'magical' races & zones were boring. Bretons, Dunmer, Altmer. There really wasnt much special to the dunmer other than the volcanic setting (which is lore), and the heavy daedric influenced brothers of strife storyline. (Deshaan which is all about amalexia, a half god, was boring as @)% ). There was absolutely nothing special about the breton at all. The Rivenspire vampire storyline has nothing to do with Bretons per say. Auridon had a very 'normal' high fantasy feel equal to that of glenumbra or Deshaan. It just happens theres only ONE zone for Altmers.
Onto development reasons. They have to develop Auridon more or less according to their lore, with dungeons, a bunch of world boss areas, etc... Auridon is not supposed to be a 'wild' jungle. In fact its supposed to be very tamed from the constant wars, the Altmer's advanced society and etc... So how can they fit in dungeons and world bosses? Civil war seemed (and still does) like a good choice. Add into that an ancestral backstory for character development which needs you to slap ayeleid ruins a bit everywhere (personnaly to me THATS what doesnt really make sense), and you end up with a not-so-magical-compared-to-other-zones area. Mostly because you compare it to other zones. I remember starting in Auridon and thought Skywatch was off the hook magical with all its blooming trees and etc... AKA, they had to make it 'modern' and it came across as 'normal'. Also, when making the vanilla game, they had to cut down on resources. Each zone/race are limited in building style, resources, textures etc... this makes the whole come across as a mroe homogenized game and not feel like it was the pet project of 12 designers that didnt agree with their individual work slapped together in a makeshift way. Its why Orisnium, Hew's Bane and Morrowind that came out after , do feel different. What I mean is they cant just choose to make 2 different architecture style for the altmer just because they should feel more magical, and altmer architecture of high crystal towers and etc... in the middle of Valenwood would not fit. So they probs chose to be more modest with the 'Auridon' architecture and go with the : well its the buffer island, excuse they gave.
TLDR: But again, only ZOS can tell you. I dont disagree I think Summerset (or the part of it we see) should have been more magical too. But I do kinda get the development logic of not going overboard with a starting zone. Don't forget the vanilla game was also very neutral in terms of everything3 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, apparently the attacks aren't constant. Not even sure why'd you say that without posting any link. Or there were no pirates on top of those attacks, or plagues. The combination of everything lead to that society, that needs to be sturdy and down to earth. Actually, I only found a source that sload assaulted Skywatch which is on Auridon, nothing about the other island. Apparently Auridon gets attacked more or by more different enemies.
They aren't shy about magic there. There are towers where mages live and all. But nothing like that blood elf village in wow where the first thing you see is broom swiping the floor being controlled telepathically without anyone touching it.
But yeah, maybe they are using the magic to have the second line of defense on the main island in case enemies can go through auridon. Or maybe it's safer there and auridon's protection allows them to just relax and do magic and studies.2 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »That's how lore works, didn't you know? None of the previous lore said that jungle in cyrodiil is just a translation mistake.
None of the previous lore states that one island is not inexplicably less magical than the other.
That's kind of my point though. I'm not questioning whether or not this is a contradiction. I'm questioning the actual choices Zenimax is making that cause all the altmer we've seen so far to be so mundane. Why did they decide to make Auridon so mundane and non-magical?
because The second largest of the Summerset Isles, Auridon has always served the High Elves as a buffer between their serene archipelago and the turmoil of Tamriel. The Altmer of Auridon have been hardened by generations of repelling invaders, pirates, and plagues.
Which makes sense. Gotta protect the mainland.
Oh, also cause maybe it's easier. Or that was the best they came up with. Not sure what type of answer you're expecting, but good luck with that. Maybe the loremaster will write his 5th comment since release, but I doubt it. Can't spend his only comment this year on that. It has to be one comment a year, after all, or so it seems.
I dont think it was just because it was easier. I mean look at grahtwood, or greenshade, or malabl tor, or repeares march, all those places are downright stunning. Auridon has just been constantly at war for so long, any place that has been at war for a certain period of time is generally not so glamarous.
Reaper's March is called Reaper's March because it's constantly at war. I just don't buy this as an excuse for Auridon. If they wanted to make it look war-torn, they could've still made it look magical and interesting, they could have still made the people magical and interesting, but they didn't.
Imagine if a ruined city in Auridon was an almost radioactive magical hazard, because all the magicka-based machinery was malfunctioning. Imagine if altmer refugees were warping into crystalline magical mutants and you needed to fight them off or even cure them for a quest. Imagine if malachite or adamantium golems were tasked with protecting the island, or reparing the constant damage. Imagine if Auridon really was a war-torn, magically advanced society under constant attack from foreign invaders. There are more creative ways to do this than what we got. I just don't buy the "buffer zone" or "war-torn" theory. Like you said, the bosmer zones are much more interesting and creative. I'm honestly starting to think Zenimax just doesn't know what to do with the altmer.
Thats the thing though altmer, and most mer in fact do not use magical machinery. That was the dwemer. They preach conservative use of magic, they always have. Also, I really have no issue with Auridon, I thought it was well done : shrug : . Altmer are very, VERY conservative, whereas the bosmer, or dunmer are a bit more eccentric.
I was using machinery for lack of a better term. I would've been satisfied with anything more magical than what we got. And define conservative? Because if anything, conservative for an altmer would be anything advanced and magical like their aldmer ancestors supposedly were. That's what was so interesting about the altmer to me. They weren't just generic high elves. At least that's how they were described in the past. Now it's just...I don't know, clearly no one agrees with me on this. I guess they're just not my favorite race anymore. I don't see what their appeal is at this point. Maybe my expectations were too high? I was just expecting the crystals, insect-wings and coral described in the lore. Zenimax chose to make Auridon a little more "normal" than what I was hoping for, and we haven't seen any sign of the altmer the lore described.Edited by psychotrip on September 28, 2017 8:14PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »That's how lore works, didn't you know? None of the previous lore said that jungle in cyrodiil is just a translation mistake.
None of the previous lore states that one island is not inexplicably less magical than the other.
That's kind of my point though. I'm not questioning whether or not this is a contradiction. I'm questioning the actual choices Zenimax is making that cause all the altmer we've seen so far to be so mundane. Why did they decide to make Auridon so mundane and non-magical?
because The second largest of the Summerset Isles, Auridon has always served the High Elves as a buffer between their serene archipelago and the turmoil of Tamriel. The Altmer of Auridon have been hardened by generations of repelling invaders, pirates, and plagues.
Which makes sense. Gotta protect the mainland.
Oh, also cause maybe it's easier. Or that was the best they came up with. Not sure what type of answer you're expecting, but good luck with that. Maybe the loremaster will write his 5th comment since release, but I doubt it. Can't spend his only comment this year on that. It has to be one comment a year, after all, or so it seems.
I dont think it was just because it was easier. I mean look at grahtwood, or greenshade, or malabl tor, or repeares march, all those places are downright stunning. Auridon has just been constantly at war for so long, any place that has been at war for a certain period of time is generally not so glamarous.
Idk what you're talking about. Auridon looks much better than any of those other places.0 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »That's how lore works, didn't you know? None of the previous lore said that jungle in cyrodiil is just a translation mistake.
None of the previous lore states that one island is not inexplicably less magical than the other.
That's kind of my point though. I'm not questioning whether or not this is a contradiction. I'm questioning the actual choices Zenimax is making that cause all the altmer we've seen so far to be so mundane. Why did they decide to make Auridon so mundane and non-magical?
because The second largest of the Summerset Isles, Auridon has always served the High Elves as a buffer between their serene archipelago and the turmoil of Tamriel. The Altmer of Auridon have been hardened by generations of repelling invaders, pirates, and plagues.
Which makes sense. Gotta protect the mainland.
Oh, also cause maybe it's easier. Or that was the best they came up with. Not sure what type of answer you're expecting, but good luck with that. Maybe the loremaster will write his 5th comment since release, but I doubt it. Can't spend his only comment this year on that. It has to be one comment a year, after all, or so it seems.
I dont think it was just because it was easier. I mean look at grahtwood, or greenshade, or malabl tor, or repeares march, all those places are downright stunning. Auridon has just been constantly at war for so long, any place that has been at war for a certain period of time is generally not so glamarous.
Idk what you're talking about. Auridon looks much better than any of those other places.
I like Auridon, I just think personally the other places looked better. But thats just my opinion.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You need to remember that Morrowind was released 3 years after the game launched.
Stonefalls and Deshaan weren't very magical either. The earlier zones were a product of the devs still not being acquainted with their graphics engine yet.
If we're to believe certain dialogue in Clockwork City, then Summerset might be the next chapter. I imagine we'll see a very different high elf civilization there.Edited by MLGProPlayer on September 28, 2017 8:23PM2 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »You need to remember that Morrowind was released 3 years after the game launched.
Stonefalls and Deshaan weren't very magical either. The earlier zones were a product of the devs still not being acquainted with their graphics engine yet.
If we're to believe certain dialogue in Clockwork City, then Summerset might be the next chapter. I imagine we'll see a very different high elf civilization there.
I don't think you need stellar graphics to portray a magically advanced society. Even if you did, Auridon is just so far below what I was expecting, and I don't understand why the chose to make it this way. Like I said though, I'm clearly in the minority here so I guess I just need to deal with it.
What dialogue are you referring to?
Edit: Here's sort of what I'm talking about in regards to how shy altmer seem to be around magic. Apparently the entire school of conjuration is evil to them and no true altmer would ever summon a daedra. It's a death sentence apparently...And yet altmer have been doing this in every single game we've seen including the Thalmor in Skyrim. Did this "law" just get abolished after the second era? And what about the entire sorcerer class revolves around daedric magic. What sort of narrative dissonance is this?
I always expected altmer to be masters of magic, snobby elitist nerds who look down on the lesser races for their superstitious fear of power. Lines like these really destroy my love for the altmer and ruin everything I thought they were about.Edited by psychotrip on September 28, 2017 8:39PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »
I always expected altmer to be masters of magic, snobby elitist nerds who look down on the lesser races for their superstitious fear of power. Lines like these really destroy my love for the altmer and ruin everything I thought they were about.
That's dunmer. Altmer are a bit different. Look at Vanus Galerion, for example. They are full of themselves and all, but aren't rude like Fyr.
Regarding not bargaining with daedra.. and sorcerer class. Pretty sure he means higher, intelligent, daedra or dremora, not making scamps serve them. Conjuration is not evil. He only said he despises intelligent daedra. These are different things.
I mean didn't you do the quest? In the end you kill a daedra - Utcina the puppetmistress, that's not just a scamp or clanfear.1 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »
I always expected altmer to be masters of magic, snobby elitist nerds who look down on the lesser races for their superstitious fear of power. Lines like these really destroy my love for the altmer and ruin everything I thought they were about.
That's dunmer. Altmer are a bit different. Look at Vanus Galerion, for example. They are full of themselves and all, but aren't rude like Fyr.
Regarding not bargaining with daedra.. and sorcerer class. Pretty sure he means higher, intelligent, daedra or dremora, not making scamps serve them. Conjuration is not evil. He only said he despises intelligent daedra. These are different things.
I mean didn't you do the quest? In the end you kill a daedra - Utcina the puppetmistress, that's not just a scamp or clanfear.
He said nothing about intelligent daedra. I think you'r trying to make sense where there is none. He said daedra. He didn't qualify that statement. Neither did anyone else in the quest. He even explicitly includes atronachs in that statement.
"To even consider summoning one of those monsters. I'd be inviting a death sentence. The atronachs at least. They're more constructs...no, a death sentence."
Altmer hate daedra summoning now and it's a death sentence.
Also, if there's anything we can agree on I think it's that altmer tend to be pretty snobby. But even if we forget that, I was still expecting them to be advanced magical nerds who look down on the lesser races for their superstitious fear of power. I was not expecting mundane, generic high elves living in generic stone hovels. I'm sure most people prefer this interpretation but I just...if this is what the altmer are now, then I guess they're not my favorite race anymore. You can use the "auridon is different for some reason" argument, but I've seen no indication that the rest of summerset isn't the same, and no reason why the people of auridon are so different.Edited by psychotrip on September 28, 2017 9:04PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.1 -
Drummerx04✭✭✭✭✭
✭The shortest answer for why Vvardenfell looks so much better and more magical than Auridon is literally just when the zones were constructed.
When the game was released, 15+ full sized zones, cyrodiil/pvp, dungeons, animations, delves, dozens of towns/cities, quests/dialog... basically everything that is the base game was created and released at the same time. Many different artists and developers working on various locations in the game trying to meet a deadline.
They just didn't have the time to construct particularly interesting locations, so many of the towns and zones in base game ESO are just underwhelming and sort of flat. In developer commentaries for zones like Wrothgar, they explain that they have the time to really push out some interesting looking towns and more carefully constructed zones when working on the DLC content.PC/NA - Nightfighters, Raid Leader and Officer
Lilith Arujo - DC sorc tank/dps/healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, Gryphon Heart, Grand Warlord
Lilith Tortorici - DC templar trials healer
Notable Completions:
vAS (72k), vMoL HM (160k), vAA HM (135k), vHRC HM, vSO HM (141k), vHoF HM (168k), vCR+3(129k), vDSA 45k, vMA 591k
Original Addons:
Lilith's Group Manager
Lilith's Lazy Hacks - Auto Recharge/Repair
Bot Scanner 2000
Lilith's Command History
Maintained Addons:
Kill Counter3 -
AuraNebula✭✭✭✭✭Lore wise, the altmer have always hated the daedra. The worship the aedra, which is why Chimer bounced out to Morrowind in the first place. Over the centuries daedra worship is less frowned upon. There's tons of videos on YouTube.3 -
Konstant_Tel_Necris✭✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »This is totally random I know, but it's been bothering me for a while. I was playing through Morrowind, exploring the weird, alien, often magical culture of the dunmer when I began to notice this.
After teleporting from Vvardenfell to Vulkhel Guard, it really started to set in: the altmer aren't very magical are they?
I know the argument we always come back to is "multiple interpretations" and "transcription errors", but I still feel like altmer deserve better than this. Compared to anywhere else in Tamriel, what makes Altmer culture magical at all?
Edit: Here's sort of what I'm talking about in regards to how shy altmer seem to be around magic. Apparently the entire school of conjuration is evil to them and no true altmer would ever summon a daedra, even an atronach. It's a death sentence apparently...And yet altmer have been doing this in every single game we've seen including the Thalmor in Skyrim. Did this "law" just get abolished after the second era? And what about the entire sorcerer class revolves around daedric magic. What sort of narrative dissonance is this?
I always expected altmer to be masters of magic, snobby elitist nerds who look down on the lesser races for their superstitious fear of power. Lines like these really destroy my love for the altmer and ruin everything I thought they were about.
Actually thats is, altmer high society suppress magic usage and even studying literacy in lower class of altmers
Only establishing of Mage Guild by Vanus Galerion somewhere change this old traditions and not without resistance from aristocrats
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Galerion_the_Mystic
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/kinlord-rilis-and-mages-guild
Thats why Veloth the Pilgrim start his movement to make advancement available for lower class and not hide magic from them
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/exodus-summerset
And dont forget that's altmers of Summerset dont like Daedra they are "Not their Ancestors" unlike of Aedra,
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/aedra-and-daedra
thats why Psijic Order works independnly from Summerset goverment on their isle of Artaeum since Old Ways says all spirits are ancestors
As a member of the Psijic Order, it is important to remain "faithful" to the Old Ways. Members believe that the spiritual world is always watching our world, and a loyal grey cloak will perform the Rites of Moawita on the 2nd of Hearth Fire and the Vigyld on the 1st of Second Seed in order to empower the salutary spirits and debilitate the unclean spirits. These spirits are believed by the Order to be the ancestors of the living, and even the Daedra and Aedra are considered to be nothing other than exceptional spirits who attained great power in the afterlife
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Psijic_Order
Trinimac was in special inquisition orden thats punish daedric heretics, thats why daedric cults start blooming outside of Summerset, clann Direnni, ayleids of Heartland even bosmers with cults of Dagon, in Summerset during 2E 582 Veiled Heritance try change old traditions as well.3 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm not versed in ES lore, but my impression from the Auridon quests is that high elves approach magic as a scientific discipline: to be studied and advanced for academic reasons, but also to be mastered and used for practical reasons. It’s not that they are not creative, it’s that they are careful, probably because they know all too well what tampering with magic might bring about. Sometimes, it seems even Lady Laurent is more excited about magic than altmer in the game, but in my head-canon, I like to think that the other summerset isles are a bit like Eyevea, and that high elves there still do some very beautiful and intricate things with magic, either out of curiosity or for purely aesthetic purposes.0 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭Konstant_Tel_Necris wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »This is totally random I know, but it's been bothering me for a while. I was playing through Morrowind, exploring the weird, alien, often magical culture of the dunmer when I began to notice this.
After teleporting from Vvardenfell to Vulkhel Guard, it really started to set in: the altmer aren't very magical are they?
I know the argument we always come back to is "multiple interpretations" and "transcription errors", but I still feel like altmer deserve better than this. Compared to anywhere else in Tamriel, what makes Altmer culture magical at all?
Edit: Here's sort of what I'm talking about in regards to how shy altmer seem to be around magic. Apparently the entire school of conjuration is evil to them and no true altmer would ever summon a daedra, even an atronach. It's a death sentence apparently...And yet altmer have been doing this in every single game we've seen including the Thalmor in Skyrim. Did this "law" just get abolished after the second era? And what about the entire sorcerer class revolves around daedric magic. What sort of narrative dissonance is this?
I always expected altmer to be masters of magic, snobby elitist nerds who look down on the lesser races for their superstitious fear of power. Lines like these really destroy my love for the altmer and ruin everything I thought they were about.
Actually thats is, altmer high society suppress magic usage and even studying literacy in lower class of altmers
Only establishing of Mage Guild by Vanus Galerion somewhere change this old traditions and not without resistance from aristocrats
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Galerion_the_Mystic
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/kinlord-rilis-and-mages-guild
Thats why Veloth the Pilgrim start his movement to make advancement available for lower class and not hide magic from them
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/exodus-summerset
And dont forget that's altmers of Summerset dont like Daedra they are "Not their Ancestors" unlike of Aedra,
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/aedra-and-daedra
thats why Psijic Order works independnly from Summerset goverment on their isle of Artaeum since Old Ways says all spirits are ancestors
As a member of the Psijic Order, it is important to remain "faithful" to the Old Ways. Members believe that the spiritual world is always watching our world, and a loyal grey cloak will perform the Rites of Moawita on the 2nd of Hearth Fire and the Vigyld on the 1st of Second Seed in order to empower the salutary spirits and debilitate the unclean spirits. These spirits are believed by the Order to be the ancestors of the living, and even the Daedra and Aedra are considered to be nothing other than exceptional spirits who attained great power in the afterlife
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Psijic_Order
Trinimac was in special inquisition orden thats punish daedric heretics, thats why daedric cults start blooming outside of Summerset, clann Direnni, ayleids of Heartland even bosmers with cults of Dagon, in Summerset during 2E 582 Veiled Heritance try change old traditions as well.
Not worshipping daedra is different from using them or enslaving them. Since when is conjuration a death sentence for altmer?
And as I recall, Galerian The Mystic states that illiteracy among the peasants was enforced under one particular lord. Even if this was a widespread practice, it doesn't explain why altmer society on the whole seems to mundane and un-magical. If nothing else, it's just boring and derivative. I understand that in the past altmer society suppressed magic use from the common-folk, but why on Nirn is conjuration a death sentence? why is there society on the whole so mundane? Why does Zenimax insist on interpreting altmer culture in the most boring way possible at every turn, while other races are allowed to be creative and unique?Edited by psychotrip on September 28, 2017 10:10PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
This might be a weird opinion, but I think that ZOS may have decided that Altmer were better suited to vilification than being glorious beacons of cultural and magical superiority. ESO is, at the very least, part of the Elder Scrolls universe. That means it's subject to Elder Scrolls history that has been established throughout the previous games. In almost all previous games, the majority of Altmer are snooty, vain, elitist, racists, exemplified by groups like the Thalmor. They make an easy target for morally-driven quests (i.e., being elitist is bad, go kill those awful elitist altmer). A lot of players come from games like Skyrim, where the altmer were pretty much the worst thing to happen to the province. They were portrayed as suppressors of the freedom to practice specific religions, and that's pretty easy to paint a big red target on. Knowing that a large group of their player base was coming from Skyrim, they probably wanted to maintain some consistency with the players attitudes towards altmer. That could explain why they don't go over the top in making the altmer into the gloriously awesome race of magical masters that they are.
Again, this is all just speculation on possible intentions ZOS may have had when writing altmer characters and designing altmer lands. I agree with OP, I'm team Altmer all the way, and would love to see them get the love and glory they deserve.2