PvE Damage Tank - Is such a build possible anymore?

Asardes

Actually Thunderbug and similar sets won't add much damage due to the fact:
- proc sets cannot crit, since Homestead update
- you lack penetration to fully take advantage of that damage (highlighted above)
- there's a cooldown on the effect
I doubt in practice it will add more than 1K DPS in a dungeon where enemies have 18.1K resistance by default. You can boost Thunderbug by investing CP in elemental expert. For example 43 CP there will give you a 10% increase, boosting the tool tip damage to 5676. Assuming you apply major breach to mobs, or 5.3K resistance debuff, they will still be left with 12.8K. Since their resistance base line is 50K, that amounts to a 25.6% mitigation, so you will only do about 4.2K damage when it procs. But realistically it will only proc ever ~4s since it has a cooldown and also a proc probability. So in deed, your average DPS from that will be only around ~1K. On AoE, that would be multiplied by the number of targets hit, but it's still very low compared with DD skills. So your lightning will look spectacular, but hit like a wet noodle compared to skills like liquid lightning, elemental blockade, endless hail, razor caltrops, steel tornado etc.

See how CP scale here:
https://alcasthq.com/eso-championpoints-jumppoints/

Cybercore_Death

kvlou79 wrote: »

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

kvlou79 wrote: »

Damage tank set? Thunderbugs Carapace is heavy armor and fun as hell.
(2 items) Adds 2975 Physical Resistance

(3 items) Adds 2975 Spell Resistance

(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage

(5 items) When you take Physical Damage, you have a 50% chance to deal 5160 Shock Damage in a 5 meter radius around you. This effect can occur once every 3 seconds.

Do your run a damage tank yourself? And if so would you mind running through what you use?

If not what else would you advise along with Thunderbugs?

Wouldn’t call him a damage tank, but yeah, taunt and stand there is boring af. I call it the “Please Hit Me” build. I like to bring non conventional perks to the group and not follow the pack (meta). Imperial Templar tank 5 T-bugs, 5 Brands of Imperium, 2 Bloodspawn. So when I’m being hit, I’m generating ultimate and getting more resists, 14K damage shields for the group, and lighting the place up with aoe damage. Keep in mind, I only run normal and vet dungeons, because I don’t want to wear gear and play style that someone tells me “I have to”. I’m sorry folks, but Ebon is lame-O.

Sometimes its nice to go against the grain.

Does seem to be a pretty viable solutions as well this dishes out enough to get by while still being able to take it.

Cybercore_Death

Asardes wrote: »

Actually Thunderbug and similar sets won't add much damage due to the fact:
- proc sets cannot crit, since Homestead update
- you lack penetration to fully take advantage of that damage (highlighted above)
- there's a cooldown on the effect
I doubt in practice it will add more than 1K DPS in a dungeon where enemies have 18.1K resistance by default. You can boost Thunderbug by investing CP in elemental expert. For example 43 CP there will give you a 10% increase, boosting the tool tip damage to 5676. Assuming you apply major breach to mobs, or 5.3K resistance debuff, they will still be left with 12.8K. Since their resistance base line is 50K, that amounts to a 25.6% mitigation, so you will only do about 4.2K damage when it procs. But realistically it will only proc ever ~4s since it has a cooldown and also a proc probability. So in deed, your average DPS from that will be only around ~1K. On AoE, that would be multiplied by the number of targets hit, but it's still very low compared with DD skills. So your lightning will look spectacular, but hit like a wet noodle compared to skills like liquid lightning, elemental blockade, endless hail, razor caltrops, steel tornado etc.

See how CP scale here:
https://alcasthq.com/eso-championpoints-jumppoints/

This is something i'd noticed myself prior to seeing the Alcast post. One thing on this you could possibly help with. I've read a few times that the percentage rounds down so the .XX% is meaningless (granted it would be anyway as its a pretty small percentage anyway).

With that i've followed the Alcast allocated for my mDK and found that a few of the allocations put the .XX in a odd place and were in effect wasting points where they could be put into something else to reach a rounded number if that makes sense?

Is what i've read right or am i screwing myself over (sort of) by not following strictly how Alcast advises for the build.

eso_nya

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

It does seem that Sorcs could be the underdog for the tank world. Especially with their skills and passives. And their reduction in ultimate cost has the potential for a really high up time for things like Warhorn.

On the paper Sorcs have the lowest ultiregen, but can achiev the highest warhornuptimes.
Powerstone and Dragon dont stack additive tho: Powerstone reduces to 213, than dragon reduces to 180.

Cybercore_Death

eso_nya wrote: »

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

It does seem that Sorcs could be the underdog for the tank world. Especially with their skills and passives. And their reduction in ultimate cost has the potential for a really high up time for things like Warhorn.

On the paper Sorcs have the lowest ultiregen, but can achiev the highest warhornuptimes.
Powerstone and Dragon dont stack additive tho: Powerstone reduces to 213, than dragon reduces to 180.

Appreciate the correction there, and tbf it was my own oversight. Should have realised that with others that dont stack.

eso_nya

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

Appreciate the correction there, and tbf it was my own oversight. Should have realised that with others that dont stack.

Was not meant to be a correction. They do stack, but the way they do, u get effective ~28% cost reduction and not a 30%, still great.
The other classes get higher regen from using certain skills, tho in terms of uptime, sorcs r still the fastest.

VaranisArano

Asardes wrote: »

Actually Thunderbug and similar sets won't add much damage due to the fact:
- proc sets cannot crit, since Homestead update
- you lack penetration to fully take advantage of that damage (highlighted above)
- there's a cooldown on the effect
I doubt in practice it will add more than 1K DPS in a dungeon where enemies have 18.1K resistance by default. You can boost Thunderbug by investing CP in elemental expert. For example 43 CP there will give you a 10% increase, boosting the tool tip damage to 5676. Assuming you apply major breach to mobs, or 5.3K resistance debuff, they will still be left with 12.8K. Since their resistance base line is 50K, that amounts to a 25.6% mitigation, so you will only do about 4.2K damage when it procs. But realistically it will only proc ever ~4s since it has a cooldown and also a proc probability. So in deed, your average DPS from that will be only around ~1K. On AoE, that would be multiplied by the number of targets hit, but it's still very low compared with DD skills. So your lightning will look spectacular, but hit like a wet noodle compared to skills like liquid lightning, elemental blockade, endless hail, razor caltrops, steel tornado etc.

If you are going to use Thunderbug, I recommend using it on a Stam Sorc or a Mag Sorc because then at least you have the chance to proc Implosion from it on low-health enemies. My Stam Sorc DPS/Tank wears 5 Thunderbug/5 Syvarra's Scales/ 2 Storm Fist just for the AOE potential on trash mobs and boss adds. This might not be a BIS build, but with that gear, hurricane, and caltrops, she is very effective at killing mobs/adds without having to actually single target them. I specifically built her to do a lot of passive/proc set damage to trash mobs. She typically does 9-11k single target damage on bosses, but I expect that could be increased by a player who knows how to animation cancel effectively. The best I can manage is heavy attack weaving, lol. However, she's able to add aoe damage to adds/trash mobs that get too close to her without ever having to stop tanking/dpsing the boss.

Like Asardes says, however, I'm not sure that Thunderbug would be the best choice if you don't have a set-up that takes advantage of it or you want to focus on single-target damage on the boss. I use Thunderbug as part of a build that's designed to dish out a ton of passive/proc set aoe damage and have the benefit of the Sorc's implosion chance.

Cybercore_Death

VaranisArano wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Actually Thunderbug and similar sets won't add much damage due to the fact:
- proc sets cannot crit, since Homestead update
- you lack penetration to fully take advantage of that damage (highlighted above)
- there's a cooldown on the effect
I doubt in practice it will add more than 1K DPS in a dungeon where enemies have 18.1K resistance by default. You can boost Thunderbug by investing CP in elemental expert. For example 43 CP there will give you a 10% increase, boosting the tool tip damage to 5676. Assuming you apply major breach to mobs, or 5.3K resistance debuff, they will still be left with 12.8K. Since their resistance base line is 50K, that amounts to a 25.6% mitigation, so you will only do about 4.2K damage when it procs. But realistically it will only proc ever ~4s since it has a cooldown and also a proc probability. So in deed, your average DPS from that will be only around ~1K. On AoE, that would be multiplied by the number of targets hit, but it's still very low compared with DD skills. So your lightning will look spectacular, but hit like a wet noodle compared to skills like liquid lightning, elemental blockade, endless hail, razor caltrops, steel tornado etc.

If you are going to use Thunderbug, I recommend using it on a Stam Sorc or a Mag Sorc because then at least you have the chance to proc Implosion from it on low-health enemies. My Stam Sorc DPS/Tank wears 5 Thunderbug/5 Syvarra's Scales/ 2 Storm Fist just for the AOE potential on trash mobs and boss adds. This might not be a BIS build, but with that gear, hurricane, and caltrops, she is very effective at killing mobs/adds without having to actually single target them. I specifically built her to do a lot of passive/proc set damage to trash mobs. She typically does 9-11k single target damage on bosses, but I expect that could be increased by a player who knows how to animation cancel effectively. The best I can manage is heavy attack weaving, lol. However, she's able to add aoe damage to adds/trash mobs that get too close to her without ever having to stop tanking/dpsing the boss.

Like Asardes says, however, I'm not sure that Thunderbug would be the best choice if you don't have a set-up that takes advantage of it or you want to focus on single-target damage on the boss. I use Thunderbug as part of a build that's designed to dish out a ton of passive/proc set aoe damage and have the benefit of the Sorc's implosion chance.

That seems like it could be a viable option all round, is it quite a fun build to play with? And what kind of content do you use her for?

Also do you run Vamp on this build? And did you gear your CPs more for DPS / Tank / mix of both?

If you wouldnt mind running through it, whats your setup gear wise, enchants, skills etc?

FloppyTouch

Pvp mdk make great tanks with damage just change one or 2 abilities with a taunt.

I use bloodspawn seducer and dragon. I can keep myself healed with embers bc all traits are already sturdy I can block and with the high up time on ult I can maintain banner or shooting star.

In pvp I switch dragon for BSW.

Good damage and great sustain. Did a dps test and hit 13k. I know that's not the best dps but for a tank it's pretty good.

This only works in vet and normal 4 man stuff would never use this in trials or vdsa

It's takes a lot of practice to play this way but the group support and AoE damage helps a lot.

Cybercore_Death

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Pvp mdk make great tanks with damage just change one or 2 abilities with a taunt.

I use bloodspawn seducer and dragon. I can keep myself healed with embers bc all traits are already sturdy I can block and with the high up time on ult I can maintain banner or shooting star.

In pvp I switch dragon for BSW.

Good damage and great sustain. Did a dps test and hit 13k. I know that's not the best dps but for a tank it's pretty good.

This only works in vet and normal 4 man stuff would never use this in trials or vdsa

It's takes a lot of practice to play this way but the group support and AoE damage helps a lot.

I did wonder if any PvP builds would be viable for Tank play.

If you wouldnt mind, could you run through your setup. Gear position, weight, skills, Vamp, and how would you work your CP?

Brrrofski

Ok, so I put together a Stam sorc dps/tank.

5 7th legion
5 briarheart
1 Lord warden
1 slimecraw

5 heavy, 2 medium. Dual wield on back bar. Thief mundus, tri stat food. Not upgraded daggers to gold yet.

Pierce armor, dark deal, vigor, heroic slash, caltrops, negate

Surge, bloodlust, inner fire, bloodthirst, hurricane, dawnbreaker.

24k health
30k stamina
14 k magica
1260 Stam recovery
3.6k weapon damage fully buffed
64% crit on dual daggers bar
29k spell and physical resist

Would like the health to be a bit higher. Might drop slimecraw for Valkyn or something.

Did darkshade 1 on vet by myself. Did first two bosses without issue. Didn't bother with more, I liked it. Damage is decent, sustain is fine with dark deal (can use it and let the heals sort me out in the meantime) and incredible healing with surge, briarheart and 7th. Can't really do a dps test as can't get 7th's damage. But it was good damage from what I could tell.

Will do some pugs with it and feedback. Fingers crossed it should be able to help even the worse do groups to finish dungeons in a semi reasonable time.

Cybercore_Death

Brrrofski wrote: »

Ok, so I put together a Stam sorc dps/tank.

5 7th legion
5 briarheart
1 Lord warden
1 slimecraw

5 heavy, 2 medium. Dual wield on back bar. Thief mundus, tri stat food. Not upgraded daggers to gold yet.

Pierce armor, dark deal, vigor, heroic slash, caltrops, negate

Surge, bloodlust, inner fire, bloodthirst, hurricane, dawnbreaker.

24k health
30k stamina
14 k magica
1260 Stam recovery
3.6k weapon damage fully buffed
64% crit on dual daggers bar
29k spell and physical resist

Would like the health to be a bit higher. Might drop slimecraw for Valkyn or something.

Did darkshade 1 on vet by myself. Did first two bosses without issue. Didn't bother with more, I liked it. Damage is decent, sustain is fine with dark deal (can use it and let the heals sort me out in the meantime) and incredible healing with surge, briarheart and 7th. Can't really do a dps test as can't get 7th's damage. But it was good damage from what I could tell.

Will do some pugs with it and feedback. Fingers crossed it should be able to help even the worse do groups to finish dungeons in a semi reasonable time.

Appreciate the details for your build, thankyou.

Sounds like its a good all rounder. Is it quite fun to play with? And do you run Vamp as well?

Brrrofski

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Ok, so I put together a Stam sorc dps/tank.

5 7th legion
5 briarheart
1 Lord warden
1 slimecraw

5 heavy, 2 medium. Dual wield on back bar. Thief mundus, tri stat food. Not upgraded daggers to gold yet.

Pierce armor, dark deal, vigor, heroic slash, caltrops, negate

Surge, bloodlust, inner fire, bloodthirst, hurricane, dawnbreaker.

24k health
30k stamina
14 k magica
1260 Stam recovery
3.6k weapon damage fully buffed
64% crit on dual daggers bar
29k spell and physical resist

Would like the health to be a bit higher. Might drop slimecraw for Valkyn or something.

Did darkshade 1 on vet by myself. Did first two bosses without issue. Didn't bother with more, I liked it. Damage is decent, sustain is fine with dark deal (can use it and let the heals sort me out in the meantime) and incredible healing with surge, briarheart and 7th. Can't really do a dps test as can't get 7th's damage. But it was good damage from what I could tell.

Will do some pugs with it and feedback. Fingers crossed it should be able to help even the worse do groups to finish dungeons in a semi reasonable time.

Appreciate the details for your build, thankyou.

Sounds like its a good all rounder. Is it quite fun to play with? And do you run Vamp as well?

Like I said, only did two bosses to text functionality, but will do pledges today after work to full test it. Seemed fun though. Nah, not vamp. Didn't think about it, just wasn't vamp on it anyway.

Cybercore_Death

Brrrofski wrote: »

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Ok, so I put together a Stam sorc dps/tank.

5 7th legion
5 briarheart
1 Lord warden
1 slimecraw

5 heavy, 2 medium. Dual wield on back bar. Thief mundus, tri stat food. Not upgraded daggers to gold yet.

Pierce armor, dark deal, vigor, heroic slash, caltrops, negate

Surge, bloodlust, inner fire, bloodthirst, hurricane, dawnbreaker.

24k health
30k stamina
14 k magica
1260 Stam recovery
3.6k weapon damage fully buffed
64% crit on dual daggers bar
29k spell and physical resist

Would like the health to be a bit higher. Might drop slimecraw for Valkyn or something.

Did darkshade 1 on vet by myself. Did first two bosses without issue. Didn't bother with more, I liked it. Damage is decent, sustain is fine with dark deal (can use it and let the heals sort me out in the meantime) and incredible healing with surge, briarheart and 7th. Can't really do a dps test as can't get 7th's damage. But it was good damage from what I could tell.

Will do some pugs with it and feedback. Fingers crossed it should be able to help even the worse do groups to finish dungeons in a semi reasonable time.

Appreciate the details for your build, thankyou.

Sounds like its a good all rounder. Is it quite fun to play with? And do you run Vamp as well?

Like I said, only did two bosses to text functionality, but will do pledges today after work to full test it. Seemed fun though. Nah, not vamp. Didn't think about it, just wasn't vamp on it anyway.

No worries, let us know how it goes.

It does sound like a fun way to play.

VaranisArano

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

That seems like it could be a viable option all round, is it quite a fun build to play with? And what kind of content do you use her for?

Also do you run Vamp on this build? And did you gear your CPs more for DPS / Tank / mix of both?

If you wouldnt mind running through it, whats your setup gear wise, enchants, skills etc?

This is the stam sorc build I mentioned at the beginning of the thread who basically a DPS with a taunt slotted. Very fun to play, but not an actual tanky tank.

Race: Imperial, though I suspect anything with stam would work well. The extra health from Imperial doesn't go to waste.

Gear: 5 thunderbug/5 Syvarra's Scales/2 Storm Fist - the exact ratio of heavy to medium armor can be played with here. I run 2 heavy/5medium because she's a DPS with a taunt, not an actual tank. Her gear is entirely chosen to boost passive and proc damage on trash mobs. Enchants are your choice, I think I use what the gear came with. Thunderbug does have a sharpened axe as a quest drop, so its weapons might be cheaper.

Skills: DW Bar: Crit Surge, Flurry, Evil hunter (can be changed), Rending Slashes, Hurricane, Utlimate: Dawnbreaker; S&B bar: Crit Surge, Vigor, Caltrops, Pierce Armor, Hurricane, Ultimate: Negate

I double bar crit surge and hurricane because it lets me start the fight on either bar. Also I really don't have other skills that are needed for the build.


Rotation: Crit Surge up for healing, Hurricane, throw caltrops on the mob/boss, charge in. Taunt anything that needs to be taunted. Single target the boss or adds with rending slashes and Flurry while the other adds melt around you. I use Vigor as a supplemental heal if I need it or when I run with 3 other DPS and they yell for it.

Resource Management: I weave heavy attacks in with Flurry because the timing is really nice. This lets me stay really high on stamina. Magicka is only used for Crit Surge.

DPS Potential: I get about 9-11k single target damage on dungeon bosses, but the only animation canceling I can figure out is heavy attack weaving. If you feel comfortable with the resource management you can add Blade Cloak for additional AoE damage and protection, or a single target like Rearming Trap. I used to use those and found myself struggling with resources more, but you experience may be different.

Strengths: Massive AoE damage on trash mobs that mostly happens without me having to divert attention from burning down the boss.

Weaknesses: Its a DPS with a taunt who's a little tanky. Its not really a tank. Her effectiveness drops off hard in Vet Dungeons where the adds have more health (they still get burned down, just slower) and the Boss one-shot mechanics hurt a lot more. She doesn't have enough health and resistances to survive boss one-shot AoEs the way my proper tank can. The only crowd control ability is Caltrops.

Content:
Leveling: like most stam sorcs, she's a breeze to level. Once you get hurricane, flurry, and twin slashes unlocked, its practically easy mode from there.
PVP: Eh, not so much. She's pretty much a melee character, and very effective in melee range. The problem is getting into melee range. I'm not afraid to admit that I got caltrops mostly by zerg surfing and chasing AP ticks. There are much more effective PVP builds.
Public Dungeons: This is her best DPS content. If I want to spend hours farming Vvardenfell's public dungeons, this is the character I use. Those tightly packed mobs just melt under her AoE damage. This is actually the environment that I tested her gear in to see what did the most AoE damage.
Normal Dungeons: So far, this is her content. With a good knowledge of the toon's limits and of the boss mechanics, she can tank almost any normal dungeon. However, she might wind up dead if I make a mistake on a hard fight, because she doesn't have the same cushion of health/resistances that a true tank does.
Veteran Dungeons: She can tank, with difficulty, the easier Veteran dungeons like Fungal Grotto I and Spindleclutch I. I wouldn't take her higher than that unless my group of friends really wanted to by rezzing me all night on the final boss. She usually does fine throughout the dungeon, but the final boss one-shot mechanics are a doozy with her.

Cybercore_Death

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

That seems like it could be a viable option all round, is it quite a fun build to play with? And what kind of content do you use her for?

Also do you run Vamp on this build? And did you gear your CPs more for DPS / Tank / mix of both?

If you wouldnt mind running through it, whats your setup gear wise, enchants, skills etc?

This is the stam sorc build I mentioned at the beginning of the thread who basically a DPS with a taunt slotted. Very fun to play, but not an actual tanky tank.

Race: Imperial, though I suspect anything with stam would work well. The extra health from Imperial doesn't go to waste.

Gear: 5 thunderbug/5 Syvarra's Scales/2 Storm Fist - the exact ratio of heavy to medium armor can be played with here. I run 2 heavy/5medium because she's a DPS with a taunt, not an actual tank. Her gear is entirely chosen to boost passive and proc damage on trash mobs. Enchants are your choice, I think I use what the gear came with. Thunderbug does have a sharpened axe as a quest drop, so its weapons might be cheaper.

Skills: DW Bar: Crit Surge, Flurry, Evil hunter (can be changed), Rending Slashes, Hurricane, Utlimate: Dawnbreaker; S&B bar: Crit Surge, Vigor, Caltrops, Pierce Armor, Hurricane, Ultimate: Negate

I double bar crit surge and hurricane because it lets me start the fight on either bar. Also I really don't have other skills that are needed for the build.


Rotation: Crit Surge up for healing, Hurricane, throw caltrops on the mob/boss, charge in. Taunt anything that needs to be taunted. Single target the boss or adds with rending slashes and Flurry while the other adds melt around you. I use Vigor as a supplemental heal if I need it or when I run with 3 other DPS and they yell for it.

Resource Management: I weave heavy attacks in with Flurry because the timing is really nice. This lets me stay really high on stamina. Magicka is only used for Crit Surge.

DPS Potential: I get about 9-11k single target damage on dungeon bosses, but the only animation canceling I can figure out is heavy attack weaving. If you feel comfortable with the resource management you can add Blade Cloak for additional AoE damage and protection, or a single target like Rearming Trap. I used to use those and found myself struggling with resources more, but you experience may be different.

Strengths: Massive AoE damage on trash mobs that mostly happens without me having to divert attention from burning down the boss.

Weaknesses: Its a DPS with a taunt who's a little tanky. Its not really a tank. Her effectiveness drops off hard in Vet Dungeons where the adds have more health (they still get burned down, just slower) and the Boss one-shot mechanics hurt a lot more. She doesn't have enough health and resistances to survive boss one-shot AoEs the way my proper tank can. The only crowd control ability is Caltrops.

Content:
Leveling: like most stam sorcs, she's a breeze to level. Once you get hurricane, flurry, and twin slashes unlocked, its practically easy mode from there.
PVP: Eh, not so much. She's pretty much a melee character, and very effective in melee range. The problem is getting into melee range. I'm not afraid to admit that I got caltrops mostly by zerg surfing and chasing AP ticks. There are much more effective PVP builds.
Public Dungeons: This is her best DPS content. If I want to spend hours farming Vvardenfell's public dungeons, this is the character I use. Those tightly packed mobs just melt under her AoE damage. This is actually the environment that I tested her gear in to see what did the most AoE damage.
Normal Dungeons: So far, this is her content. With a good knowledge of the toon's limits and of the boss mechanics, she can tank almost any normal dungeon. However, she might wind up dead if I make a mistake on a hard fight, because she doesn't have the same cushion of health/resistances that a true tank does.
Veteran Dungeons: She can tank, with difficulty, the easier Veteran dungeons like Fungal Grotto I and Spindleclutch I. I wouldn't take her higher than that unless my group of friends really wanted to by rezzing me all night on the final boss. She usually does fine throughout the dungeon, but the final boss one-shot mechanics are a doozy with her.

I appreciate the detail you've gone into on the content you've tester her and found her comfortable with. Its always to get some real world feedback as it were.

I too also shamefully zerg surfed for leveling up PvP skill lines, and for the same reason that my mDK was just not PvP ready. didnt do too bad when holding fort where i could just keep popping shield and dropping long range dots but thats about it.

I'm definitely gonna have to mess around with my sSorc and see what i can accomplish with him. Same with my MDK as there's a good amount of info to go on.

eso_nya

Brrrofski wrote: »

Can't really do a dps test as can't get 7th's damage.

Dummy doesnt hit back, so no Wrath, no Constitution, no 7th, no Riposte.

Good place to test those Builds are the Nirncrux Trolls in Craglorn: They can hit like a truck, the have a lot of cc and dots, and they heal themselves for close to 10k HPS.
They r very helpful to find a good balance between sustain, defense and dmg output.

RavenSworn

My tanks are as follows: a mag sorc 28k health SnB with lightning staff, a mag warden 32k health SnB with frost staff and a stamblade tank, 28k health SnB with two hander.

I can effectively heal, tank and dps with my first two tanks, depending on the dungeon. Vet Hm might require a bit more focus but it's still doable. With the mag sorc I can deal up to 20k dps on groups and with bosses I can pull slightly around 9-11k. I don't lose taunt with her, only perhaps in bigger groups I might lose track of runners but that's to be expected. I usually can solo normals and some of the vet dungeons but thats more to my ping rather than the difficulty of the dungeon itself.

With the mag ward, I deal less damage but still able to pull around 16-18k damage on groups. The good thing about Wardens are they are awesome for the frost staff taunting with SnB as off bar. It seems clunky at first but you can get it to work with practice. You can switch it up with Inner fire but it's a waste of a slot imo. That works better with the mag sorc since her damage output is better.

Stam blade is where I have trouble. Been trying to make this work for some time and I think I have the right build and sets, just not the right enchants. Also use alot of soul tether for crowd control. It sucks since group cc for nbs are almost nonexistent but it can be worked in. Stam blade tank also requires more focus on rotation and positioning.

Cybercore_Death

RavenSworn wrote: »

My tanks are as follows: a mag sorc 28k health SnB with lightning staff, a mag warden 32k health SnB with frost staff and a stamblade tank, 28k health SnB with two hander.

I can effectively heal, tank and dps with my first two tanks, depending on the dungeon. Vet Hm might require a bit more focus but it's still doable. With the mag sorc I can deal up to 20k dps on groups and with bosses I can pull slightly around 9-11k. I don't lose taunt with her, only perhaps in bigger groups I might lose track of runners but that's to be expected. I usually can solo normals and some of the vet dungeons but thats more to my ping rather than the difficulty of the dungeon itself.

With the mag ward, I deal less damage but still able to pull around 16-18k damage on groups. The good thing about Wardens are they are awesome for the frost staff taunting with SnB as off bar. It seems clunky at first but you can get it to work with practice. You can switch it up with Inner fire but it's a waste of a slot imo. That works better with the mag sorc since her damage output is better.

Stam blade is where I have trouble. Been trying to make this work for some time and I think I have the right build and sets, just not the right enchants. Also use alot of soul tether for crowd control. It sucks since group cc for nbs are almost nonexistent but it can be worked in. Stam blade tank also requires more focus on rotation and positioning.

Out of the three which do you find to be the most consistent / reliable overall (for both tanking and DPS)?

Would you mind giving us a quick run down of gear / skills / Vamp etc?

I've noticed that NB builds in general seem to take more focus but do seem to pay off in the end. I did consider an NB build for PvP as they seem to be the go to option but have yet to go down this route.

Drakkdjinn

Possible, yes. Effective, not really.

Cybercore_Death

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Possible, yes. Effective, not really.

Would you mind elaborating? I want to get as many views as possible on this topic.

Asardes

Well, I see people pretty much corroborate what I said before. The single damage on an effective tank build is under 15K regardless of gear and skills used. Higher parses are basically from DDs with a taunt, which have their limitations. IMO it's always better to run either a proper debuff tank, or a healer/tank hybrid with 3DDs in a 4 man group. Both Templar and Warden can do that role since they have class healing spells not dependent on healing staff as wells as passives that help with sustain and damage mitigation.

Cybercore_Death

Asardes wrote: »

Well, I see people pretty much corroborate what I said before. The single damage on an effective tank build is under 15K regardless of gear and skills used. Higher parses are basically from DDs with a taunt, which have their limitations. IMO it's always better to run either a proper debuff tank, or a healer/tank hybrid with 3DDs in a 4 man group. Both Templar and Warden can do that role since they have class healing spells not dependent on healing staff as wells as passives that help with sustain and damage mitigation.

Out of the two which would you say is the best at the healer/tank hybrid?

Do you / have you run one yourself? And what kind of a setup would you look to have? I have thought about starting a healer but if i could do both in one that would be a little more ideal.

Gan Xing

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

How to get to 60k+ health (because I do play a health tank!):

5 pieces plague doctor,
5 pieces green pact,
2 monster set pieces that both give health (malubeth is a really easy head to farm). Bonus if you can get these both in heavy, then one light and one medium when you reach undaunted mettle's second passive.

All big pieces (the ones that get the most from enchanting- chest, legs, head) infused, little pieces sturdy. You'll want purple tri stat food, and every single armor pieces enchanted to health. Attributes are tricky: you'll want to make sure you have about 15k stamina and 14k magicka, then dump the rest into health.

Since you seemed interested in the warden, skills as follows:

Bar one- Absorb magic, pierce armor, leeching vines, shimmering shield, polar wind, shield discipline/spell wall.

Bar two- expansive frost cloak, inner fire, heroic slash, gripping shards, balance (equilibrium morph, mages' guild- you'd be amazed how many people don't know what the skill is), aggressive warhorn.

Really appreciate the detail you've gone into with this. Is the Warden a fun build to play with? I've seen a few people running then, but as healer / support roles only and some of the skills looked pretty cool tbf.

Would you run this build as a Vamp and also how do you work your CP to get the most out of skills / armor setup?

I actually have a Dunmer vampire Magicka tank. I have my attributes in Magicka, have Ysgramor, and Plague Doctor. 1h&shield and frost destro. I have enough self heals to keep myself alive, even with a lot of aggro (I just need to get better at timing my block, and I need to change the traits on my armor). I can run Vet Dungeons with her, and have fun. It's a surprisingly easy set up, and sometimes i find my mind drifting from the fight, as I just let my fingers do the work (especially when the boss mechanics are so simple you can just have the timer running in your head). Single target, I still deal 10k-12k dps.

Cybercore_Death

Gan Xing wrote: »

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

How to get to 60k+ health (because I do play a health tank!):

5 pieces plague doctor,
5 pieces green pact,
2 monster set pieces that both give health (malubeth is a really easy head to farm). Bonus if you can get these both in heavy, then one light and one medium when you reach undaunted mettle's second passive.

All big pieces (the ones that get the most from enchanting- chest, legs, head) infused, little pieces sturdy. You'll want purple tri stat food, and every single armor pieces enchanted to health. Attributes are tricky: you'll want to make sure you have about 15k stamina and 14k magicka, then dump the rest into health.

Since you seemed interested in the warden, skills as follows:

Bar one- Absorb magic, pierce armor, leeching vines, shimmering shield, polar wind, shield discipline/spell wall.

Bar two- expansive frost cloak, inner fire, heroic slash, gripping shards, balance (equilibrium morph, mages' guild- you'd be amazed how many people don't know what the skill is), aggressive warhorn.

Really appreciate the detail you've gone into with this. Is the Warden a fun build to play with? I've seen a few people running then, but as healer / support roles only and some of the skills looked pretty cool tbf.

Would you run this build as a Vamp and also how do you work your CP to get the most out of skills / armor setup?

I actually have a Dunmer vampire Magicka tank. I have my attributes in Magicka, have Ysgramor, and Plague Doctor. 1h&shield and frost destro. I have enough self heals to keep myself alive, even with a lot of aggro (I just need to get better at timing my block, and I need to change the traits on my armor). I can run Vet Dungeons with her, and have fun. It's a surprisingly easy set up, and sometimes i find my mind drifting from the fight, as I just let my fingers do the work (especially when the boss mechanics are so simple you can just have the timer running in your head). Single target, I still deal 10k-12k dps.

Couple people have noted running this type of build.

Would you mind running through your setup? Skills, Vamp, Food etc?

In terms of Vet content is there any where this build shines the most, or where you find it struggles a little?

Brrrofski

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Well, I see people pretty much corroborate what I said before. The single damage on an effective tank build is under 15K regardless of gear and skills used. Higher parses are basically from DDs with a taunt, which have their limitations. IMO it's always better to run either a proper debuff tank, or a healer/tank hybrid with 3DDs in a 4 man group. Both Templar and Warden can do that role since they have class healing spells not dependent on healing staff as wells as passives that help with sustain and damage mitigation.

Out of the two which would you say is the best at the healer/tank hybrid?

Do you / have you run one yourself? And what kind of a setup would you look to have? I have thought about starting a healer but if i could do both in one that would be a little more ideal.

Honestly, I think warden. You have a heal that heals you and another which scales off max health. When it crits I can heal people for like 8k quite easilly. Breath of life will scale with max magica, which you won't have an insane amount of.

You have a skill that heals people when you light and heavy attack. As a tank, you'll be doing this a lot (for resources and to debuff enemies). It also gives es you 10% crit which helps all your heals (so I sit at like 32% crit).

You have a skill that roots adds which is ice. So it can give them the chilled status which reducer their damage by 15%. That's nice on 1 skill that costs magica and does it as an aoe.

You can give everyone a spell and physical resist buff.

Lastly, and most importantly, trees. If you use shimmering shield, that thing is up like 70% of the time. Nobody will die in it unless it's a one shot.

I use Ebon, seducer, 1 chudan, 1 shadowrend. Have 41k health, 17.5k Stam and magica, 30k resistances and 2k magica recovery. It's great for doing pledges with guild members. As long as the slot a heal or shield, it's no problem.

Drakkdjinn

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Possible, yes. Effective, not really.

Would you mind elaborating? I want to get as many views as possible on this topic.

Your contribution to the groups overall DPS will be less than the overall DPS of a group where you built your tank for mitigation or supporting the DPS of the damage roles, also you'll be too weak to tank veteran content efficiently if you sacrifice tanking utility for inconsequential DPS - you'll be wasting your healers resources keeping you alive for minimal damage returns. Such builds get a pass in normal, but you'll be wasting a spot in endgame content for a more effective player.

Brrrofski

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Possible, yes. Effective, not really.

Would you mind elaborating? I want to get as many views as possible on this topic.

Your contribution to the groups overall DPS will be less than the overall DPS of a group where you built your tank for mitigation or supporting the DPS of the damage roles, also you'll be too weak to tank veteran content efficiently if you sacrifice tanking utility for inconsequential DPS - you'll be wasting your healers resources keeping you alive for minimal damage returns. Such builds get a pass in normal, but you'll be wasting a spot in endgame content for a more effective player.

With a proper group, I agree.

If you want to pug though, being tank is horrid sometimes. You have to stand there and watch people doing busted combos that amount to no damage and boss fights take an eternity. It's horrible sometimes.

All the alkosh and warhorns in the world will not help them.

Mojmir

Brrrofski wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Possible, yes. Effective, not really.

Would you mind elaborating? I want to get as many views as possible on this topic.

Your contribution to the groups overall DPS will be less than the overall DPS of a group where you built your tank for mitigation or supporting the DPS of the damage roles, also you'll be too weak to tank veteran content efficiently if you sacrifice tanking utility for inconsequential DPS - you'll be wasting your healers resources keeping you alive for minimal damage returns. Such builds get a pass in normal, but you'll be wasting a spot in endgame content for a more effective player.

With a proper group, I agree.

If you want to pug though, being tank is horrid sometimes. You have to stand there and watch people doing busted combos that amount to no damage and boss fights take an eternity. It's horrible sometimes.

All the alkosh and warhorns in the world will not help them.

im using gilliams updated NB sap build and some ideas from the build in your sig, i been tanking for 3 days and already blew through a bunch of pledges,WB's, its quite funny. i wouldnt say its vet trial material,but its great for PUGS and quick pledge keys.

Brrrofski

Mojmir wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Cybercore_Death wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Possible, yes. Effective, not really.

Would you mind elaborating? I want to get as many views as possible on this topic.

Your contribution to the groups overall DPS will be less than the overall DPS of a group where you built your tank for mitigation or supporting the DPS of the damage roles, also you'll be too weak to tank veteran content efficiently if you sacrifice tanking utility for inconsequential DPS - you'll be wasting your healers resources keeping you alive for minimal damage returns. Such builds get a pass in normal, but you'll be wasting a spot in endgame content for a more effective player.

With a proper group, I agree.

If you want to pug though, being tank is horrid sometimes. You have to stand there and watch people doing busted combos that amount to no damage and boss fights take an eternity. It's horrible sometimes.

All the alkosh and warhorns in the world will not help them.

im using gilliams updated NB sap build and some ideas from the build in your sig, i been tanking for 3 days and already blew through a bunch of pledges,WB's, its quite funny. i wouldnt say its vet trial material,but its great for PUGS and quick pledge keys.

Yeh, I loved my saptank. I played that so much. Could tank every vet dungeon with no issues and deal good damage too.

Siphoning change took all the fun away. Combination of that and maybe getting burnt out on it has just made me stop playing it. Doing a great job of holding all my monster sets at the moment.