Why PvP Will Never be Fair, Balanced, or Skill based

Stamicka

For awhile now I think we can all agree that PvP has had balance issues, and unfortunately I realized that in a game like this, there is not much of a way to actually have a fair and competitive combat system.

The bottom line is that there's simply too many sets in the game. Ever since One Tamriel introduced TONS of new sets into the game the idea of having a fair system was thrown out the window.

The game is about who can make the best build with the best stats. In a system like that, stats play the game for you, not skill. So many factors let you have advantages over your opponent like undaunted passives, gold gear, and much more. Without stat caps, there's no way to have a fair system unless everyone runs the same exact builds. This is not to say that a skilled player can't win in a disadvantaged situation, however, in cases with players around the same skill level, the better build will usually win.

This is the unfortunate side effect of build diversity. There's very few ways to have a fair playing ground where a player is not disadvantaged in some way, whether it's from the gear sets, CP set ups, or passives.

bardx86

The PVP is far from balanced ATM. Damage mitigation form tank classes is ***, ***!

Timeraider

bardx86 wrote: »

The PVP is far from balanced ATM. Damage mitigation form tank classes is ***, ***!

And thats why everyone simply ignores them :P

White wabbit

Timeraider wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

The PVP is far from balanced ATM. Damage mitigation form tank classes is ***, ***!

And thats why everyone simply ignores them :P

Hard to ignore them when they run around in groups

TheDoomsdayMonster

@Stamicka

Well, while I can respect your opinion, I have to disagree about the game being fair...

The game is fair in the respect that everyone has the option to acquire any gear set of his/her choosing and from there mix and match said gear with whatever abilities that are at your disposal...

In short, there is equal opportunity to be great in this game as pertains to gear and your overall build...


Also, I strongly disagree with you that the stats play the game for you and not skill...

You absolutely need skill when facing the better players...

You must know how to set up your burst; you must know how to defend yourself from your opponents burst; you gotta know when to dodge roll; you gotta get good at circling your opponent so that you can hit them and them not be able to hit you back...

Skill is critical in this game (especially as pertains to PvP)...period.


Now the game will never be completely balanced and thats a good thing...

Part of this games appeal is thinking up the best build possible and pitting your build against your opponents...

If I out think you (ie...I create a more effective build than yours), you have no one to blame other than yourself as the system is set up to give us both equal opportunity to character build as we'd like to...


Anyway, thats just my two cents...

bardx86

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

@Stamicka

Well, while I can respect your opinion, I have to disagree about the game being fair...

The game is fair in the respect that everyone has the option to acquire any gear set of his/her choosing and from there mix and match said gear with whatever abilities that are at your disposal...

In short, there is equal opportunity to be great in this game as pertains to gear and your overall build...


Also, I strongly disagree with you that the stats play the game for you and not skill...

You absolutely need skill when facing the better players...

You must know how to set up your burst; you must know how to defend yourself from your opponents burst; you gotta know when to dodge roll; you gotta get good at circling your opponent so that you can hit them and them not be able to hit you back...

Skill is critical in this game (especially as pertains to PvP)...period.


Now the game will never be completely balanced and thats a good thing...

Part of this games appeal is thinking up the best build possible and pitting your build against your opponents...

If I out think you (ie...I create a more effective build than yours), you have no one to blame other than yourself as the system is set up to give us both equal opportunity to character build as we'd like to...


Anyway, thats just my two cents...

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

@Stamicka

Well, while I can respect your opinion, I have to disagree about the game being fair...

The game is fair in the respect that everyone has the option to acquire any gear set of his/her choosing and from there mix and match said gear with whatever abilities that are at your disposal...

In short, there is equal opportunity to be great in this game as pertains to gear and your overall build...


Also, I strongly disagree with you that the stats play the game for you and not skill...

You absolutely need skill when facing the better players...

You must know how to set up your burst; you must know how to defend yourself from your opponents burst; you gotta know when to dodge roll; you gotta get good at circling your opponent so that you can hit them and them not be able to hit you back...

Skill is critical in this game (especially as pertains to PvP)...period.


Now the game will never be completely balanced and thats a good thing...

Part of this games appeal is thinking up the best build possible and pitting your build against your opponents...

If I out think you (ie...I create a more effective build than yours), you have no one to blame other than yourself as the system is set up to give us both equal oppoHiw is it fair whenrtunity to character build as we'd like to...


Anyway, thats just my two cents...

No offensive but you are wrong. No gear or CP or skill is going help against builds that can mitigate damage like we have now with tanks. Its ***.

bardx86

Timeraider wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

The PVP is far from balanced ATM. Damage mitigation form tank classes is ***, ***!

And thats why everyone simply ignores them :P

how can you ignore half the players on the opposite faction?

Qbiken

Fair??: Probably not

Balanced: To some degree I think it might become balanced one day, but not 100%

Skillbased: Skill is such a bad way of measuring things since the definition of skill will be different depending on who you ask.

TheDoomsdayMonster

@bardx86

Can said supertanky builds kill you?

If neither of you can kill the other, then its balanced...


I know the Supertanky builds I've fought simply don't have enough burst to kill me...

I cant kill them, they cant kill me; we eventually just give up and go our own separate ways...

bardx86

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

@bardx86

Can said supertanky builds kill you?

If neither of you can kill the other, then its balanced...


I know the Supertanky builds I've fought simply don't have enough burst to kill me...

I cant kill them, they cant kill me; we eventually just give up and go our own separate ways...

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

@bardx86

Can said supertanky builds kill you?

If neither of you can kill the other, then its balanced...


I know the Supertanky builds I've fought simply don't have enough burst to kill me...

I cant kill them, they cant kill me; we eventually just give up and go our own separate ways...

Dude, they can, historically i would agree with you, but in the new meta they can.

Stamicka

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

@Stamicka

Well, while I can respect your opinion, I have to disagree about the game being fair...

The game is fair in the respect that everyone has the option to acquire any gear set of his/her choosing and from there mix and match said gear with whatever abilities that are at your disposal...

In short, there is equal opportunity to be great in this game as pertains to gear and your overall build...


Also, I strongly disagree with you that the stats play the game for you and not skill...

You absolutely need skill when facing the better players...

You must know how to set up your burst; you must know how to defend yourself from your opponents burst; you gotta know when to dodge roll; you gotta get good at circling your opponent so that you can hit them and them not be able to hit you back...

Skill is critical in this game (especially as pertains to PvP)...period.


Now the game will never be completely balanced and thats a good thing...

Part of this games appeal is thinking up the best build possible and pitting your build against your opponents...

If I out think you (ie...I create a more effective build than yours), you have no one to blame other than yourself as the system is set up to give us both equal opportunity to character build as we'd like to...


Anyway, thats just my two cents...

I am not arguing that skill plays no role, instead I'm arguing that skill isn't always the main thing that decides whether or not somebody wins a fight. Yes, there is equal opportunity to get gear, but don't forget that getting gear has a lot to do with how good your RNG is or how much gold you have. Besides that, having better stats provides an advantage a skilled disadvantaged player can still win, but this doesn't make the fight fair. Let's say for example two sorcs are fighting. One has 40k magic and 3k spell damage, the other has 50k magic and 3k spell damage. For the example let's just say their sustain is the same. The 50k sorc will have better damage and on top of that, thicker shields. This means the 40k sorc can be more easily bursted down, but will still have to work harder to burst the other sorc down because of the shield strength. The 40k sorc can still outplay the other, but will have to put in much more effort. This would not be a "fair" fight. Sure both sorcs have access to the same gear, but getting 50k magic often requires undaunted passives, gold gear, and the necro set which will either cost a lot of gold or a lot of time. Not everyone is up to spend so much on one build. For a player who doesn't have time of time to play but still wants to pvp, the option is to settle for the lower but decent stats. This means being at a constant disadvantage simply due to gear, and nothing to do with skill.

My point is that there's too many ways to have advantages over your opponent that extends beyond personal skill level. Compare this to a game like Overwatch, where certain characters counter others, but theres no way to make your character somehow better than other versions of your character. This is why I consider overwatch a fair and competitive game, if you were to 1v1 same character vs same character, there's nothing BUT skill determining the winner. Of course Overwatch is a different genre and game completely, but I think it shows the difference between an actual competitive skill based game and ESO.

Stamicka

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

@bardx86

Can said supertanky builds kill you?

If neither of you can kill the other, then its balanced...


I know the Supertanky builds I've fought simply don't have enough burst to kill me...

I cant kill them, they cant kill me; we eventually just give up and go our own separate ways...

Yes, tank builds have enough burst to kill you in the current version of ESO. You can run a sword and board 5 piece Fury Stam Warden and a properly timed Subterranean Assault>Cutting Dive> Low Slash> Bash> Dawnbreaker combo can put out plenty of burst. If you don't believe me just go to YouTube and look it up. Just proves my point on how stats and advantages play too much of a role. Is it fair that you can run a build like that and mitigate more than a medium armor user but put out the same if not more burst than them? No.

Qbiken

Stamicka wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

@bardx86

Can said supertanky builds kill you?

If neither of you can kill the other, then its balanced...


I know the Supertanky builds I've fought simply don't have enough burst to kill me...

I cant kill them, they cant kill me; we eventually just give up and go our own separate ways...

Yes, tank builds have enough burst to kill you in the current version of ESO. You can run a sword and board 5 piece Fury Stam Warden and a properly timed Subterranean Assault>Cutting Dive> Low Slash> Bash> Dawnbreaker combo can put out plenty of burst. If you don't believe me just go to YouTube and look it up. Just proves my point on how stats and advantages play too much of a role. Is it fair that you can run a build like that and mitigate more than a medium armor user but put out the same if not more burst than them? No.

The main issue with heavy armor is not the skilline itself, but the sets that comes in heavy armor (ravage, 7th, legion, fury. Just to name a few popular sets). These sets opens up for heavy armor to dish out good amount of damage.

The wrath skill only gives aroud 200 weapon/spell damage so it´s not a gamebreaker, even tho I would like this passive to change so that it gives you more resistance each time you take damage instead of giving spell/wpn damage.

Turelus

I think the biggest issue is that everyone thinks balance means their class wins everything.

There is some upset between the classes power levels but not every class is meant to be the best at everything and the number of sets in theory should be adding to the diversity of builds and counter builds.

However we play in this time when everyone goes for what the select few (streamers, guides sites) say is "best" and don't consider that maybe there are other combinations or counters to things they're having issues with.

How many threads do we have of people complaining about Nightblade cloaks, but the OP will never actually use a counter skill or potion because "It doesn't fit my build".

That's my ramblings on it any way.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Stamicka wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

@Stamicka

Well, while I can respect your opinion, I have to disagree about the game being fair...

The game is fair in the respect that everyone has the option to acquire any gear set of his/her choosing and from there mix and match said gear with whatever abilities that are at your disposal...

In short, there is equal opportunity to be great in this game as pertains to gear and your overall build...


Also, I strongly disagree with you that the stats play the game for you and not skill...

You absolutely need skill when facing the better players...

You must know how to set up your burst; you must know how to defend yourself from your opponents burst; you gotta know when to dodge roll; you gotta get good at circling your opponent so that you can hit them and them not be able to hit you back...

Skill is critical in this game (especially as pertains to PvP)...period.


Now the game will never be completely balanced and thats a good thing...

Part of this games appeal is thinking up the best build possible and pitting your build against your opponents...

If I out think you (ie...I create a more effective build than yours), you have no one to blame other than yourself as the system is set up to give us both equal opportunity to character build as we'd like to...


Anyway, thats just my two cents...

I am not arguing that skill plays no role, instead I'm arguing that skill isn't always the main thing that decides whether or not somebody wins a fight. Yes, there is equal opportunity to get gear, but don't forget that getting gear has a lot to do with how good your RNG is or how much gold you have. Besides that, having better stats provides an advantage a skilled disadvantaged player can still win, but this doesn't make the fight fair. Let's say for example two sorcs are fighting. One has 40k magic and 3k spell damage, the other has 50k magic and 3k spell damage. For the example let's just say their sustain is the same. The 50k sorc will have better damage and on top of that, thicker shields. This means the 40k sorc can be more easily bursted down, but will still have to work harder to burst the other sorc down because of the shield strength. The 40k sorc can still outplay the other, but will have to put in much more effort. This would not be a "fair" fight. Sure both sorcs have access to the same gear, but getting 50k magic often requires undaunted passives, gold gear, and the necro set which will either cost a lot of gold or a lot of time. Not everyone is up to spend so much on one build. For a player who doesn't have time of time to play but still wants to pvp, the option is to settle for the lower but decent stats. This means being at a constant disadvantage simply due to gear, and nothing to do with skill.

My point is that there's too many ways to have advantages over your opponent that extends beyond personal skill level. Compare this to a game like Overwatch, where certain characters counter others, but theres no way to make your character somehow better than other versions of your character. This is why I consider overwatch a fair and competitive game, if you were to 1v1 same character vs same character, there's nothing BUT skill determining the winner. Of course Overwatch is a different genre and game completely, but I think it shows the difference between an actual competitive skill based game and ESO.

Basically it comes down to skill (how well you play your character), time spent in-game (which affects how much gold/resources/gear you acquire), and your intellect (which affects how well you are built) as far as I can see...

These are the only ways to get an advantage over another player at the end of the day...

And really, each and every one of these things are on you if another player beats you...


Otherwise, you are on equal terms with everyone else as the game is fully open to play and character build as you'd like to...

For this type of game, this is as fair as it gets...

TheDoomsdayMonster

Turelus wrote: »

I think the biggest issue is that everyone thinks balance means their class wins everything.

There is some upset between the classes power levels but not every class is meant to be the best at everything and the number of sets in theory should be adding to the diversity of builds and counter builds.

However we play in this time when everyone goes for what the select few (streamers, guides sites) say is "best" and don't consider that maybe there are other combinations or counters to things they're having issues with.

How many threads do we have of people complaining about Nightblade cloaks, but the OP will never actually use a counter skill or potion because "It doesn't fit my build".

That's my ramblings on it any way.

100% agree...

From what I see in-game and what I read on the forums, too many people narrow their focus to a few specific builds/gear sets and then proclaim that some combination of those sets are the 'meta' and anything outside of that is subpar or suboptimal...

This game has soooo much room for creativity that I refuse to believe that some specific build (even if it proves to be very successful) is 100% beyond anything else given all the unexplored options available to us...

I know for a fact that there are sets that (if you believe everything you read here on the forum and heard said in-game) people disregard as garbage without having fully explored the myriad possibilities that exist with said armor sets...

But anyway, I believe this game offers enough creativity when it comes to builds that there has gotta be a way to counter virtually any build you come across; its simply up to you to figure out the counter...

Turelus

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I think the biggest issue is that everyone thinks balance means their class wins everything.

There is some upset between the classes power levels but not every class is meant to be the best at everything and the number of sets in theory should be adding to the diversity of builds and counter builds.

However we play in this time when everyone goes for what the select few (streamers, guides sites) say is "best" and don't consider that maybe there are other combinations or counters to things they're having issues with.

How many threads do we have of people complaining about Nightblade cloaks, but the OP will never actually use a counter skill or potion because "It doesn't fit my build".

That's my ramblings on it any way.

100% agree...

From what I see in-game and what I read on the forums, too many people narrow their focus to a few specific builds/gear sets and then proclaim that some combination of those sets are the 'meta' and anything outside of that is subpar or suboptimal...

This game has soooo much room for creativity that I refuse to believe that some specific build (even if it proves to be very successful) is 100% beyond anything else given all the unexplored options available to us...

I know for a fact that there are sets that (if you believe everything you read here on the forum and heard said in-game) people disregard as garbage without having fully explored the myriad possibilities that exist with said armor sets...

But anyway, I believe this game offers enough creativity when it comes to builds that there has gotta be a way to counter virtually any build you come across; its simply up to you to figure out the counter...

See in PvE I understand the meta and fixed builds. If you're going to DPS you want the best DPS you can do.

However remember when "lolz hybrid scrub" was a thing, the along comes Blobs and uses stamina/magicka mix and suddenly everyone wants that and it's not scrub any more.

I honestly think player skill in PvP has a huge part in how good you can be, and a great player will make even non-meta builds show their strength. I understand that not every skill and build will always win, that there are FotM builds which are very strong at what they do, but nothing is unbeatable if you spec to beat it.

Juhasow

bardx86 wrote: »

The PVP is far from balanced ATM. Damage mitigation form tank classes is ***, ***!

As long as their dmg done is opposite to dmg mitigated everything is as it should be.

Qbiken

Juhasow wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

The PVP is far from balanced ATM. Damage mitigation form tank classes is ***, ***!

As long as their dmg done is opposite to dmg mitigated everything is as it should be.

Some really skilful players can achieve both at the moment. Have spend the last few weeks trying to understand the concept of tanking and dishing out great amount of damage in PvP. So far I´ve only started to get the "theory and understanding of it" (haven´t really got the opportunity and time to test yet) and I get that it´s more about understanding how mechanics synergies together (and often together with the Dragonknight class) with certain passives, champion points, poisons etc more than what gear you use.

My point is that there´s no "easy" fix for balancing stuff like heavy armor when there´re so many aspect to take into consideration that makes tanking + damage possible.

Betsararie

I think the game is skill-based now, if someone is unskilled in PvP they will be unable to do anything and killed in a matter of seconds.

Achieving things such as 1v1 and 1vX really just comes down to skill.

We should also remember that creating builds is a skill, some people are better at it than others, and it takes thought and calculating, etc.

As for the troll type tank builds, you just ignore them, move onto a player with a more balanced build, and fight them. Only take the tanks on in a group where they can be taken down.

There are some gimmicky aspects to PvP, possibly but at its core it is still skill dependent.

Sylosi

Erm, ESO is a joke in terms of balance and skill, in pretty much every respect.

Now does that mean there is no skill, no, but it does mean it is low skilled compared to actual "skilled" games (compare it to SC2, fighting games, high level CS:GO, etc).

To have skilled play, first you need a gamemode that enables that, ESO does not have that, Cyrodll is obviously a joke in that regard, BG would need a huge overhaul to achieve that (none of this 3 team nonsense, actual matchmaking/rating system, etc).

Then you have the realities even if a player is trying to be "skillful" by the low standards of ESO, that is often laughable when people are literally waiting for skills to go off, let alone try and ani cancel with the lag in this game at times.

I mean just look at the playerbase (and this goes for pretty much every MMORPG), the percent of players that could even be vaguely termed "competitive" in PvP is absolutely tiny, guess what, that does not make for skilled PvP, spending most of your time fighting new/not very good players is not skilled.

If i go play a skilled PvP game, say SC2, the idea that GM players should be spending their time playing against bronze league is laughable, it is just considered a pointless waste of time by good skilled players, yet laughably in ESO that is what considered "skilled" by the joke playerbase, go see the delusional streamers for a fine example of this.

Also the simple fact that these baddies consider simply "fighting" as "skilled play", when outside of a handful of games with a really high skill cap on the combat (some fighting games for example, and no ESO comabt does not have a high skill cap), every successful, competitive, skilled PvP game uses maps/objectives etc to up the skill cap beyond mere combat so players have to have map awareness, multitask, etc, because combat alone is not all that.

And as for balance, please, a game that has balance patches every X months, that tries to balance between PvE & PvP, and between multiple types of play within those, balance is a joke, which just lower the skill cap in this game further.

Then on top of all that, you have the huge discrepancies in power thanks to things like CP and gear, which is totally contrary to the notion of skilled PvP.

ESO is a low skilled game, with laughable balance and a population that mostly has little to no interest in competitive skilled PvP, if you want skilled PvP you are playing the wrong game and the wrong genre, but are apparently too stupid / bad to realise it.

Juhasow

Qbiken wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

The PVP is far from balanced ATM. Damage mitigation form tank classes is ***, ***!

As long as their dmg done is opposite to dmg mitigated everything is as it should be.

Some really skilful players can achieve both at the moment. Have spend the last few weeks trying to understand the concept of tanking and dishing out great amount of damage in PvP. So far I´ve only started to get the "theory and understanding of it" (haven´t really got the opportunity and time to test yet) and I get that it´s more about understanding how mechanics synergies together (and often together with the Dragonknight class) with certain passives, champion points, poisons etc more than what gear you use.

My point is that there´s no "easy" fix for balancing stuff like heavy armor when there´re so many aspect to take into consideration that makes tanking + damage possible.

I know builds like this but most of the time they're able to do decent dmg only when facing real potato players , and also they're able to be killed faster then real tanks when swarmed by few decent players.

Minno

You can get similar tankiness running a brusier LA build. I haven't played a MA build due to lack of planning time lately, but certain classes can run a similar style with Stam (nb/Templar).

ATM you shouldn't build to use 30k resists/5k crit resists as your baseline to look at countering; you'll never kill them and they give up too much DMG that your hots will keep you alive longer. You can literally heavy attack them and they can't do anything.

What you guys are fighting are not tanks, but tankier DPS utilizing block from either frost staff or snb defensive bars or classes dumping 20% into block reduction CP. And you'll need unblockable cc to help counter them, which some builds aren't using. Raise your own time to kill, after hitting minimums for DMG stats/regen and you'll see LA/MA are superior to HA.

CP fights are longer but more rewarding since after a certain time it becomes a fight about who knows the correct mechanics. You can't just burn+leave, not without being in a group to help offset your dmg stacks.

Stamicka

Sylosi wrote: »

Erm, ESO is a joke in terms of balance and skill, in pretty much every respect.

Now does that mean there is no skill, no, but it does mean it is low skilled compared to actual "skilled" games (compare it to SC2, fighting games, high level CS:GO, etc).

To have skilled play, first you need a gamemode that enables that, ESO does not have that, Cyrodll is obviously a joke in that regard, BG would need a huge overhaul to achieve that (none of this 3 team nonsense, actual matchmaking/rating system, etc).

Then you have the realities even if a player is trying to be "skillful" by the low standards of ESO, that is often laughable when people are literally waiting for skills to go off, let alone try and ani cancel with the lag in this game at times.

I mean just look at the playerbase (and this goes for pretty much every MMORPG), the percent of players that could even be vaguely termed "competitive" in PvP is absolutely tiny, guess what, that does not make for skilled PvP, spending most of your time fighting new/not very good players is not skilled.

If i go play a skilled PvP game, say SC2, the idea that GM players should be spending their time playing against bronze league is laughable, it is just considered a pointless waste of time by good skilled players, yet laughably in ESO that is what considered "skilled" by the joke playerbase, go see the delusional streamers for a fine example of this.

Also the simple fact that these baddies consider simply "fighting" as "skilled play", when outside of a handful of games with a really high skill cap on the combat (some fighting games for example, and no ESO comabt does not have a high skill cap), every successful, competitive, skilled PvP game uses maps/objectives etc to up the skill cap beyond mere combat so players have to have map awareness, multitask, etc, because combat alone is not all that.

And as for balance, please, a game that has balance patches every X months, that tries to balance between PvE & PvP, and between multiple types of play within those, balance is a joke, which just lower the skill cap in this game further.

Then on top of all that, you have the huge discrepancies in power thanks to things like CP and gear, which is totally contrary to the notion of skilled PvP.

ESO is a low skilled game, with laughable balance and a population that mostly has little to no interest in competitive skilled PvP, if you want skilled PvP you are playing the wrong game and the wrong genre, but are apparently too stupid / bad to realise it.

This last paragraph is basically what I'm trying to say. ESO is not competitively skilled, and cannot be without caps and some more changes. You can never have a fair playing ground when you can build your character as strong as you want. If you can get better stats than your opponent, you already have a better chance of winning. The game is all about builds now, skill is still somewhat involved, but when you win a fight it's often difficult to tell what got you the win, skill or better stats? In an actual competitive game this question would never come up.

Storymaster

I love how discussions in every PVP population going as far back in time as Avalon always generate topics with titles like this.

When there's PVP, there will always be someone that is unhappy.

Waffennacht

It's a RPG, skill is half, gear is the other.

Plus, building characters is a skill unto itself

Edit: plus no one out builds my builds

Waffennacht

After YEARS of Halo, (no scope sniper 1 shot head shot) I hate FPS. Too easy

Stamicka

Waffennacht wrote: »

It's a RPG, skill is half, gear is the other.

Plus, building characters is a skill unto itself

Edit: plus no one out builds my builds

You my friend get the point of the post! RPG is not the genre for a pure skill based competitive game, the point of the post was for others to understand that and not treat the game as if it's meant to be 100% balanced, fair, and skill based.

ak_pvp

Block 2 stronk, shield stack 2 stronk, treetard spam 2 stronk.

WTB functioning intelligent counters, i.e. wings, streak/mines, shadow/cloak.

Waffennacht

ak_pvp wrote: »

Block 2 stronk, shield stack 2 stronk, treetard spam 2 stronk.

WTB functioning intelligent counters, i.e. wings, streak/mines, shadow/cloak.

Bleed/Oblivion, Dots/CC, Defile/knock back

bardx86

Stamicka wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Erm, ESO is a joke in terms of balance and skill, in pretty much every respect.

Now does that mean there is no skill, no, but it does mean it is low skilled compared to actual "skilled" games (compare it to SC2, fighting games, high level CS:GO, etc).

To have skilled play, first you need a gamemode that enables that, ESO does not have that, Cyrodll is obviously a joke in that regard, BG would need a huge overhaul to achieve that (none of this 3 team nonsense, actual matchmaking/rating system, etc).

Then you have the realities even if a player is trying to be "skillful" by the low standards of ESO, that is often laughable when people are literally waiting for skills to go off, let alone try and ani cancel with the lag in this game at times.

I mean just look at the playerbase (and this goes for pretty much every MMORPG), the percent of players that could even be vaguely termed "competitive" in PvP is absolutely tiny, guess what, that does not make for skilled PvP, spending most of your time fighting new/not very good players is not skilled.

If i go play a skilled PvP game, say SC2, the idea that GM players should be spending their time playing against bronze league is laughable, it is just considered a pointless waste of time by good skilled players, yet laughably in ESO that is what considered "skilled" by the joke playerbase, go see the delusional streamers for a fine example of this.

Also the simple fact that these baddies consider simply "fighting" as "skilled play", when outside of a handful of games with a really high skill cap on the combat (some fighting games for example, and no ESO comabt does not have a high skill cap), every successful, competitive, skilled PvP game uses maps/objectives etc to up the skill cap beyond mere combat so players have to have map awareness, multitask, etc, because combat alone is not all that.

And as for balance, please, a game that has balance patches every X months, that tries to balance between PvE & PvP, and between multiple types of play within those, balance is a joke, which just lower the skill cap in this game further.

Then on top of all that, you have the huge discrepancies in power thanks to things like CP and gear, which is totally contrary to the notion of skilled PvP.

ESO is a low skilled game, with laughable balance and a population that mostly has little to no interest in competitive skilled PvP, if you want skilled PvP you are playing the wrong game and the wrong genre, but are apparently too stupid / bad to realise it.

This last paragraph is basically what I'm trying to say. ESO is not competitively skilled, and cannot be without caps and some more changes. You can never have a fair playing ground when you can build your character as strong as you want. If you can get better stats than your opponent, you already have a better chance of winning. The game is all about builds now, skill is still somewhat involved, but when you win a fight it's often difficult to tell what got you the win, skill or better stats? In an actual competitive game this question would never come up.

In a since there are caps, only so much gear and so much CP allowed. The problem is that currently, damage isn't scaling to keep up with midigation.