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Serious discussion about crouch
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catalyst10e✭✭✭✭catalyst10e wrote: »
I can ask the same thing of the invis pots tho.
4 are in perma stealth via invis pots or cloak. In the case of cloak, they're not even really losing any resources, hows it any different than crouching? but again, even if they werent in stealth at all, if you get mowed down by 4 people and theres only 1 of you chances are you were going to lose regardless, and the stealth aspect of it has nothing to do with it. Except now you've removed your own option of possibly getting away.
I can give you several scenarios crouching has helped me. I main a magic sorc.
Scenario 1: Escape. Sometimes when I'm facing way too many people and about to get zerged down, I can streak +boundless storm to gain some distance duck behind a rock for line of sight and then crouch to stealth and move out of the area. I survive the encounter, maintain my position and once the zerg has passed or given up, I can then pick off stragglers or those who stayed behind looking for me.
Scenario 2: Scouting. as a magic sorc, crouching stealth allows me to scout ahead a bit. I can't just be spamming my shields 100% of the time to stay alive. I'm a gankers dream in all light armor. But with crouch I can survey the battle field, maintain distance, and decide if I want to engage the enemy or not. Next time you go into PVP look on the map for a conflict, and go to it, then without using crouch try and scope out whats going on, whos fighting, wheres the breach, etc. If its the enemy I'd put money on 20 people running right for you. and what fun is it to constantly get zerged?
Scenario 3: Set a trap. I can take a resource by myself, and then hide, waiting for the enemy to come and try and flip. If the enemy sees someone just standing there witht he NPCs they're not going to fight all of you, most would just walk away. The trap works when the enemy thinks no one is there. Now, you may not like when someone does this, but it's a valid form of combat, and it's easily avoided, just dont go to the resource. (or dont go alone at least)
Scenario 4: Resurrection. I cant count the number of times team mates have died and I managed to escape, and stealth my way back to res them. removing crouch makes this either an impossible task or something only the rich can do which leads me to....
Scenario 5: economy. removing crouching and giving the non-NB classes the only option of invis pots would cause those ingredient and potion prices to skyrocket. This creates the situation i mentioned before where only the rich or truely dedicated can escape fights or stealth res now.
Scenario 6: the Imperial City. Gankers love IC, like a fat kid loves cake. If I couldn't stealth without the assistance of a pot, I'd never get around in there at all.
Scenario 7: It promotes the ganker style. Since you mentioned the gankers before, remove crouch doesnt effect them, most of them are NBs already who would still have cloak to remain hidden. Cloak allows them to be standing right next to you undetected. At least Crouch stealth breaks when you get too close to enemies. Remove crouch and the game becomes zerg v zerg with hidden NBs everywhere waiting to pounce on eachother.
I could go on but you get the idea. I sympathize with you, I understand you've probably been in some scenarios where the enemy kept getting away from crouch and you didnt want to waste the resources spamming AOEs or mage light looking for them. It annoyed you and you'd like to see it removed. I've been there, I cant count the number of times I've yelled "stupid immovable pots" when I can't CC the enemy at all ever. But it doesnt mean they should be removed. theres a lot of utility there and I'm also willing to bet you avoid using crouch because you hate that style of play so much... But give it a shot, utilize it, it's a tool we all have.
Getting rid of crouch wouldn't promote ganking or making it easier for you to get ganked. Perma-crouch is how gankers profit. I am not sure how much you actually pvp based on your statements.
All I do is PVP. That's how I gave you 7 scenarios worth of evidence on how removing crouch is a bad idea. You have yet to give me a counter argument other than what amounts to "I dont like it when people hide while I'm trying to kill them." which isnt a valid reason.
You only responded to scenario 7, with "no it doesnt" that's also not a counter argument. But I'll re-state it for you. If you removed the ability to crouch to stealth, How does this impact a ganker? A ganker is USUALLY a NB and they still have cloak, a much stronger version of stealth. The other gankers who dont use NB will need to either buy pots or make a NB. To top that off, If solo and small scale players can't stealth up to avoid zergs, they run into the same issue. run pots to hide, or make a NB. How does this all not promote more ganking and zerging?"Why settle for just stabbing your foes when you can roast them alive in a gout of arcane fire?"
[| DC Breton Sorcerer || NA PS4 || PSN: Catalyst10e |]
[| DC Dunmer Dragon Knight |]0 -
Sedare✭✭✭catalyst10e wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »
I can ask the same thing of the invis pots tho.
4 are in perma stealth via invis pots or cloak. In the case of cloak, they're not even really losing any resources, hows it any different than crouching? but again, even if they werent in stealth at all, if you get mowed down by 4 people and theres only 1 of you chances are you were going to lose regardless, and the stealth aspect of it has nothing to do with it. Except now you've removed your own option of possibly getting away.
I can give you several scenarios crouching has helped me. I main a magic sorc.
Scenario 1: Escape. Sometimes when I'm facing way too many people and about to get zerged down, I can streak +boundless storm to gain some distance duck behind a rock for line of sight and then crouch to stealth and move out of the area. I survive the encounter, maintain my position and once the zerg has passed or given up, I can then pick off stragglers or those who stayed behind looking for me.
Scenario 2: Scouting. as a magic sorc, crouching stealth allows me to scout ahead a bit. I can't just be spamming my shields 100% of the time to stay alive. I'm a gankers dream in all light armor. But with crouch I can survey the battle field, maintain distance, and decide if I want to engage the enemy or not. Next time you go into PVP look on the map for a conflict, and go to it, then without using crouch try and scope out whats going on, whos fighting, wheres the breach, etc. If its the enemy I'd put money on 20 people running right for you. and what fun is it to constantly get zerged?
Scenario 3: Set a trap. I can take a resource by myself, and then hide, waiting for the enemy to come and try and flip. If the enemy sees someone just standing there witht he NPCs they're not going to fight all of you, most would just walk away. The trap works when the enemy thinks no one is there. Now, you may not like when someone does this, but it's a valid form of combat, and it's easily avoided, just dont go to the resource. (or dont go alone at least)
Scenario 4: Resurrection. I cant count the number of times team mates have died and I managed to escape, and stealth my way back to res them. removing crouch makes this either an impossible task or something only the rich can do which leads me to....
Scenario 5: economy. removing crouching and giving the non-NB classes the only option of invis pots would cause those ingredient and potion prices to skyrocket. This creates the situation i mentioned before where only the rich or truely dedicated can escape fights or stealth res now.
Scenario 6: the Imperial City. Gankers love IC, like a fat kid loves cake. If I couldn't stealth without the assistance of a pot, I'd never get around in there at all.
Scenario 7: It promotes the ganker style. Since you mentioned the gankers before, remove crouch doesnt effect them, most of them are NBs already who would still have cloak to remain hidden. Cloak allows them to be standing right next to you undetected. At least Crouch stealth breaks when you get too close to enemies. Remove crouch and the game becomes zerg v zerg with hidden NBs everywhere waiting to pounce on eachother.
I could go on but you get the idea. I sympathize with you, I understand you've probably been in some scenarios where the enemy kept getting away from crouch and you didnt want to waste the resources spamming AOEs or mage light looking for them. It annoyed you and you'd like to see it removed. I've been there, I cant count the number of times I've yelled "stupid immovable pots" when I can't CC the enemy at all ever. But it doesnt mean they should be removed. theres a lot of utility there and I'm also willing to bet you avoid using crouch because you hate that style of play so much... But give it a shot, utilize it, it's a tool we all have.
Getting rid of crouch wouldn't promote ganking or making it easier for you to get ganked. Perma-crouch is how gankers profit. I am not sure how much you actually pvp based on your statements.
All I do is PVP. That's how I gave you 7 scenarios worth of evidence on how removing crouch is a bad idea. You have yet to give me a counter argument other than what amounts to "I dont like it when people hide while I'm trying to kill them." which isnt a valid reason.
You only responded to scenario 7, with "no it doesnt" that's also not a counter argument. But I'll re-state it for you. If you removed the ability to crouch to stealth, How does this impact a ganker? A ganker is USUALLY a NB and they still have cloak, a much stronger version of stealth. The other gankers who dont use NB will need to either buy pots or make a NB. To top that off, If solo and small scale players can't stealth up to avoid zergs, they run into the same issue. run pots to hide, or make a NB. How does this all not promote more ganking and zerging?
problem with cloak is 1. it doesn't work half the time (especially as a defensive maneuver). 2. it's costly for stam users. 3. it also is a very short duration. a scout/assassin/ganker does not run full boar into the crowd, hit cloak, then attack. it takes patience, positioning, and timing, this is where sneak/crouch/whatever you want to call it, is necessary.
people are just tired of opportunistic *** like myself getting the better of them from stealth. It's not just NB's using it. I've seen an NB spamming flare while the DK was the stealthy. Talk about role reversal.
Stealth is fine as is. Just fix the bloody not-in combat so can return to stealth issue b/c i've been disengaged for longer than 6 seconds before being able to return to stealth.0 -
laissezfaire✭✭✭catalyst10e wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »
I can ask the same thing of the invis pots tho.
4 are in perma stealth via invis pots or cloak. In the case of cloak, they're not even really losing any resources, hows it any different than crouching? but again, even if they werent in stealth at all, if you get mowed down by 4 people and theres only 1 of you chances are you were going to lose regardless, and the stealth aspect of it has nothing to do with it. Except now you've removed your own option of possibly getting away.
I can give you several scenarios crouching has helped me. I main a magic sorc.
Scenario 1: Escape. Sometimes when I'm facing way too many people and about to get zerged down, I can streak +boundless storm to gain some distance duck behind a rock for line of sight and then crouch to stealth and move out of the area. I survive the encounter, maintain my position and once the zerg has passed or given up, I can then pick off stragglers or those who stayed behind looking for me.
Scenario 2: Scouting. as a magic sorc, crouching stealth allows me to scout ahead a bit. I can't just be spamming my shields 100% of the time to stay alive. I'm a gankers dream in all light armor. But with crouch I can survey the battle field, maintain distance, and decide if I want to engage the enemy or not. Next time you go into PVP look on the map for a conflict, and go to it, then without using crouch try and scope out whats going on, whos fighting, wheres the breach, etc. If its the enemy I'd put money on 20 people running right for you. and what fun is it to constantly get zerged?
Scenario 3: Set a trap. I can take a resource by myself, and then hide, waiting for the enemy to come and try and flip. If the enemy sees someone just standing there witht he NPCs they're not going to fight all of you, most would just walk away. The trap works when the enemy thinks no one is there. Now, you may not like when someone does this, but it's a valid form of combat, and it's easily avoided, just dont go to the resource. (or dont go alone at least)
Scenario 4: Resurrection. I cant count the number of times team mates have died and I managed to escape, and stealth my way back to res them. removing crouch makes this either an impossible task or something only the rich can do which leads me to....
Scenario 5: economy. removing crouching and giving the non-NB classes the only option of invis pots would cause those ingredient and potion prices to skyrocket. This creates the situation i mentioned before where only the rich or truely dedicated can escape fights or stealth res now.
Scenario 6: the Imperial City. Gankers love IC, like a fat kid loves cake. If I couldn't stealth without the assistance of a pot, I'd never get around in there at all.
Scenario 7: It promotes the ganker style. Since you mentioned the gankers before, remove crouch doesnt effect them, most of them are NBs already who would still have cloak to remain hidden. Cloak allows them to be standing right next to you undetected. At least Crouch stealth breaks when you get too close to enemies. Remove crouch and the game becomes zerg v zerg with hidden NBs everywhere waiting to pounce on eachother.
I could go on but you get the idea. I sympathize with you, I understand you've probably been in some scenarios where the enemy kept getting away from crouch and you didnt want to waste the resources spamming AOEs or mage light looking for them. It annoyed you and you'd like to see it removed. I've been there, I cant count the number of times I've yelled "stupid immovable pots" when I can't CC the enemy at all ever. But it doesnt mean they should be removed. theres a lot of utility there and I'm also willing to bet you avoid using crouch because you hate that style of play so much... But give it a shot, utilize it, it's a tool we all have.
Getting rid of crouch wouldn't promote ganking or making it easier for you to get ganked. Perma-crouch is how gankers profit. I am not sure how much you actually pvp based on your statements.
All I do is PVP. That's how I gave you 7 scenarios worth of evidence on how removing crouch is a bad idea. You have yet to give me a counter argument other than what amounts to "I dont like it when people hide while I'm trying to kill them." which isnt a valid reason.
You only responded to scenario 7, with "no it doesnt" that's also not a counter argument. But I'll re-state it for you. If you removed the ability to crouch to stealth, How does this impact a ganker? A ganker is USUALLY a NB and they still have cloak, a much stronger version of stealth. The other gankers who dont use NB will need to either buy pots or make a NB. To top that off, If solo and small scale players can't stealth up to avoid zergs, they run into the same issue. run pots to hide, or make a NB. How does this all not promote more ganking and zerging?
I didn't respond to all your scenarios because I understand when crouch is useful. I am speaking to the health of PvP and there would be negatives to the change but I feel it would be better overall.
What I was stating is that ganking wouldn't become easier; it would become more difficult because common sense...
Currently, all classes have access to crouch, pots and cp passive and NB already have cloak. So how does removing one tool of gankers make ganking easier?
And yes, there would be more occurrences of being zerged down.
Lastly, I don't have time IRL to speak to everyone's response in full detail.
Edit: TypoEdited by laissezfaire on September 21, 2017 4:03PM0 -
catalyst10e✭✭✭✭catalyst10e wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »
I can ask the same thing of the invis pots tho.
4 are in perma stealth via invis pots or cloak. In the case of cloak, they're not even really losing any resources, hows it any different than crouching? but again, even if they werent in stealth at all, if you get mowed down by 4 people and theres only 1 of you chances are you were going to lose regardless, and the stealth aspect of it has nothing to do with it. Except now you've removed your own option of possibly getting away.
I can give you several scenarios crouching has helped me. I main a magic sorc.
Scenario 1: Escape. Sometimes when I'm facing way too many people and about to get zerged down, I can streak +boundless storm to gain some distance duck behind a rock for line of sight and then crouch to stealth and move out of the area. I survive the encounter, maintain my position and once the zerg has passed or given up, I can then pick off stragglers or those who stayed behind looking for me.
Scenario 2: Scouting. as a magic sorc, crouching stealth allows me to scout ahead a bit. I can't just be spamming my shields 100% of the time to stay alive. I'm a gankers dream in all light armor. But with crouch I can survey the battle field, maintain distance, and decide if I want to engage the enemy or not. Next time you go into PVP look on the map for a conflict, and go to it, then without using crouch try and scope out whats going on, whos fighting, wheres the breach, etc. If its the enemy I'd put money on 20 people running right for you. and what fun is it to constantly get zerged?
Scenario 3: Set a trap. I can take a resource by myself, and then hide, waiting for the enemy to come and try and flip. If the enemy sees someone just standing there witht he NPCs they're not going to fight all of you, most would just walk away. The trap works when the enemy thinks no one is there. Now, you may not like when someone does this, but it's a valid form of combat, and it's easily avoided, just dont go to the resource. (or dont go alone at least)
Scenario 4: Resurrection. I cant count the number of times team mates have died and I managed to escape, and stealth my way back to res them. removing crouch makes this either an impossible task or something only the rich can do which leads me to....
Scenario 5: economy. removing crouching and giving the non-NB classes the only option of invis pots would cause those ingredient and potion prices to skyrocket. This creates the situation i mentioned before where only the rich or truely dedicated can escape fights or stealth res now.
Scenario 6: the Imperial City. Gankers love IC, like a fat kid loves cake. If I couldn't stealth without the assistance of a pot, I'd never get around in there at all.
Scenario 7: It promotes the ganker style. Since you mentioned the gankers before, remove crouch doesnt effect them, most of them are NBs already who would still have cloak to remain hidden. Cloak allows them to be standing right next to you undetected. At least Crouch stealth breaks when you get too close to enemies. Remove crouch and the game becomes zerg v zerg with hidden NBs everywhere waiting to pounce on eachother.
I could go on but you get the idea. I sympathize with you, I understand you've probably been in some scenarios where the enemy kept getting away from crouch and you didnt want to waste the resources spamming AOEs or mage light looking for them. It annoyed you and you'd like to see it removed. I've been there, I cant count the number of times I've yelled "stupid immovable pots" when I can't CC the enemy at all ever. But it doesnt mean they should be removed. theres a lot of utility there and I'm also willing to bet you avoid using crouch because you hate that style of play so much... But give it a shot, utilize it, it's a tool we all have.
Getting rid of crouch wouldn't promote ganking or making it easier for you to get ganked. Perma-crouch is how gankers profit. I am not sure how much you actually pvp based on your statements.
All I do is PVP. That's how I gave you 7 scenarios worth of evidence on how removing crouch is a bad idea. You have yet to give me a counter argument other than what amounts to "I dont like it when people hide while I'm trying to kill them." which isnt a valid reason.
You only responded to scenario 7, with "no it doesnt" that's also not a counter argument. But I'll re-state it for you. If you removed the ability to crouch to stealth, How does this impact a ganker? A ganker is USUALLY a NB and they still have cloak, a much stronger version of stealth. The other gankers who dont use NB will need to either buy pots or make a NB. To top that off, If solo and small scale players can't stealth up to avoid zergs, they run into the same issue. run pots to hide, or make a NB. How does this all not promote more ganking and zerging?
I didn't respond to all your scenarios because I understand when crouch is useful. I am speaking to the health of PvP and there would be negatives to the change but I feel it would be better overall.
What I was stating is that ganking wouldn't become easier; it would become more difficult because common sense...
Currently, all classes have access to crouch, pots and cp passive and NB already have cloak. So how does removing one tool of gankers make ganking easier?
And yes, there would be more occurrences of being zerged down.
Lastly, I don't have time IRL to speak to everyone's response in full detail.
Edit: Typocatalyst10e wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »
I can ask the same thing of the invis pots tho.
4 are in perma stealth via invis pots or cloak. In the case of cloak, they're not even really losing any resources, hows it any different than crouching? but again, even if they werent in stealth at all, if you get mowed down by 4 people and theres only 1 of you chances are you were going to lose regardless, and the stealth aspect of it has nothing to do with it. Except now you've removed your own option of possibly getting away.
I can give you several scenarios crouching has helped me. I main a magic sorc.
Scenario 1: Escape. Sometimes when I'm facing way too many people and about to get zerged down, I can streak +boundless storm to gain some distance duck behind a rock for line of sight and then crouch to stealth and move out of the area. I survive the encounter, maintain my position and once the zerg has passed or given up, I can then pick off stragglers or those who stayed behind looking for me.
Scenario 2: Scouting. as a magic sorc, crouching stealth allows me to scout ahead a bit. I can't just be spamming my shields 100% of the time to stay alive. I'm a gankers dream in all light armor. But with crouch I can survey the battle field, maintain distance, and decide if I want to engage the enemy or not. Next time you go into PVP look on the map for a conflict, and go to it, then without using crouch try and scope out whats going on, whos fighting, wheres the breach, etc. If its the enemy I'd put money on 20 people running right for you. and what fun is it to constantly get zerged?
Scenario 3: Set a trap. I can take a resource by myself, and then hide, waiting for the enemy to come and try and flip. If the enemy sees someone just standing there witht he NPCs they're not going to fight all of you, most would just walk away. The trap works when the enemy thinks no one is there. Now, you may not like when someone does this, but it's a valid form of combat, and it's easily avoided, just dont go to the resource. (or dont go alone at least)
Scenario 4: Resurrection. I cant count the number of times team mates have died and I managed to escape, and stealth my way back to res them. removing crouch makes this either an impossible task or something only the rich can do which leads me to....
Scenario 5: economy. removing crouching and giving the non-NB classes the only option of invis pots would cause those ingredient and potion prices to skyrocket. This creates the situation i mentioned before where only the rich or truely dedicated can escape fights or stealth res now.
Scenario 6: the Imperial City. Gankers love IC, like a fat kid loves cake. If I couldn't stealth without the assistance of a pot, I'd never get around in there at all.
Scenario 7: It promotes the ganker style. Since you mentioned the gankers before, remove crouch doesnt effect them, most of them are NBs already who would still have cloak to remain hidden. Cloak allows them to be standing right next to you undetected. At least Crouch stealth breaks when you get too close to enemies. Remove crouch and the game becomes zerg v zerg with hidden NBs everywhere waiting to pounce on eachother.
I could go on but you get the idea. I sympathize with you, I understand you've probably been in some scenarios where the enemy kept getting away from crouch and you didnt want to waste the resources spamming AOEs or mage light looking for them. It annoyed you and you'd like to see it removed. I've been there, I cant count the number of times I've yelled "stupid immovable pots" when I can't CC the enemy at all ever. But it doesnt mean they should be removed. theres a lot of utility there and I'm also willing to bet you avoid using crouch because you hate that style of play so much... But give it a shot, utilize it, it's a tool we all have.
Getting rid of crouch wouldn't promote ganking or making it easier for you to get ganked. Perma-crouch is how gankers profit. I am not sure how much you actually pvp based on your statements.
All I do is PVP. That's how I gave you 7 scenarios worth of evidence on how removing crouch is a bad idea. You have yet to give me a counter argument other than what amounts to "I dont like it when people hide while I'm trying to kill them." which isnt a valid reason.
You only responded to scenario 7, with "no it doesnt" that's also not a counter argument. But I'll re-state it for you. If you removed the ability to crouch to stealth, How does this impact a ganker? A ganker is USUALLY a NB and they still have cloak, a much stronger version of stealth. The other gankers who dont use NB will need to either buy pots or make a NB. To top that off, If solo and small scale players can't stealth up to avoid zergs, they run into the same issue. run pots to hide, or make a NB. How does this all not promote more ganking and zerging?
I didn't respond to all your scenarios because I understand when crouch is useful. I am speaking to the health of PvP and there would be negatives to the change but I feel it would be better overall.
What I was stating is that ganking wouldn't become easier; it would become more difficult because common sense...
Currently, all classes have access to crouch, pots and cp passive and NB already have cloak. So how does removing one tool of gankers make ganking easier?
And yes, there would be more occurrences of being zerged down.
Lastly, I don't have time IRL to speak to everyone's response in full detail.
Edit: Typo
You're talking about "health of PVP" and then say "there would be negatives" and "yes more occurrences of being zerged down" that doesnt make sense. If its a negative impact, and it causes more zerging, which we all agree sucks, how is it healthy for pvp?
It's also a bit strange you're saying you want a serious discussion and yet dont respond in turn. I'm not asking for an in depth analysis or full detail but "no it doesnt" isnt constructive to the overall discussion.
I maintain, crouch is fine, theres plenty of counters, lots of utility, and makes PVP more interesting."Why settle for just stabbing your foes when you can roast them alive in a gout of arcane fire?"
[| DC Breton Sorcerer || NA PS4 || PSN: Catalyst10e |]
[| DC Dunmer Dragon Knight |]0 -
laissezfaire✭✭✭catalyst10e wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »
I can ask the same thing of the invis pots tho.
4 are in perma stealth via invis pots or cloak. In the case of cloak, they're not even really losing any resources, hows it any different than crouching? but again, even if they werent in stealth at all, if you get mowed down by 4 people and theres only 1 of you chances are you were going to lose regardless, and the stealth aspect of it has nothing to do with it. Except now you've removed your own option of possibly getting away.
I can give you several scenarios crouching has helped me. I main a magic sorc.
Scenario 1: Escape. Sometimes when I'm facing way too many people and about to get zerged down, I can streak +boundless storm to gain some distance duck behind a rock for line of sight and then crouch to stealth and move out of the area. I survive the encounter, maintain my position and once the zerg has passed or given up, I can then pick off stragglers or those who stayed behind looking for me.
Scenario 2: Scouting. as a magic sorc, crouching stealth allows me to scout ahead a bit. I can't just be spamming my shields 100% of the time to stay alive. I'm a gankers dream in all light armor. But with crouch I can survey the battle field, maintain distance, and decide if I want to engage the enemy or not. Next time you go into PVP look on the map for a conflict, and go to it, then without using crouch try and scope out whats going on, whos fighting, wheres the breach, etc. If its the enemy I'd put money on 20 people running right for you. and what fun is it to constantly get zerged?
Scenario 3: Set a trap. I can take a resource by myself, and then hide, waiting for the enemy to come and try and flip. If the enemy sees someone just standing there witht he NPCs they're not going to fight all of you, most would just walk away. The trap works when the enemy thinks no one is there. Now, you may not like when someone does this, but it's a valid form of combat, and it's easily avoided, just dont go to the resource. (or dont go alone at least)
Scenario 4: Resurrection. I cant count the number of times team mates have died and I managed to escape, and stealth my way back to res them. removing crouch makes this either an impossible task or something only the rich can do which leads me to....
Scenario 5: economy. removing crouching and giving the non-NB classes the only option of invis pots would cause those ingredient and potion prices to skyrocket. This creates the situation i mentioned before where only the rich or truely dedicated can escape fights or stealth res now.
Scenario 6: the Imperial City. Gankers love IC, like a fat kid loves cake. If I couldn't stealth without the assistance of a pot, I'd never get around in there at all.
Scenario 7: It promotes the ganker style. Since you mentioned the gankers before, remove crouch doesnt effect them, most of them are NBs already who would still have cloak to remain hidden. Cloak allows them to be standing right next to you undetected. At least Crouch stealth breaks when you get too close to enemies. Remove crouch and the game becomes zerg v zerg with hidden NBs everywhere waiting to pounce on eachother.
I could go on but you get the idea. I sympathize with you, I understand you've probably been in some scenarios where the enemy kept getting away from crouch and you didnt want to waste the resources spamming AOEs or mage light looking for them. It annoyed you and you'd like to see it removed. I've been there, I cant count the number of times I've yelled "stupid immovable pots" when I can't CC the enemy at all ever. But it doesnt mean they should be removed. theres a lot of utility there and I'm also willing to bet you avoid using crouch because you hate that style of play so much... But give it a shot, utilize it, it's a tool we all have.
Getting rid of crouch wouldn't promote ganking or making it easier for you to get ganked. Perma-crouch is how gankers profit. I am not sure how much you actually pvp based on your statements.
All I do is PVP. That's how I gave you 7 scenarios worth of evidence on how removing crouch is a bad idea. You have yet to give me a counter argument other than what amounts to "I dont like it when people hide while I'm trying to kill them." which isnt a valid reason.
You only responded to scenario 7, with "no it doesnt" that's also not a counter argument. But I'll re-state it for you. If you removed the ability to crouch to stealth, How does this impact a ganker? A ganker is USUALLY a NB and they still have cloak, a much stronger version of stealth. The other gankers who dont use NB will need to either buy pots or make a NB. To top that off, If solo and small scale players can't stealth up to avoid zergs, they run into the same issue. run pots to hide, or make a NB. How does this all not promote more ganking and zerging?
I didn't respond to all your scenarios because I understand when crouch is useful. I am speaking to the health of PvP and there would be negatives to the change but I feel it would be better overall.
What I was stating is that ganking wouldn't become easier; it would become more difficult because common sense...
Currently, all classes have access to crouch, pots and cp passive and NB already have cloak. So how does removing one tool of gankers make ganking easier?
And yes, there would be more occurrences of being zerged down.
Lastly, I don't have time IRL to speak to everyone's response in full detail.
Edit: Typocatalyst10e wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »
I can ask the same thing of the invis pots tho.
4 are in perma stealth via invis pots or cloak. In the case of cloak, they're not even really losing any resources, hows it any different than crouching? but again, even if they werent in stealth at all, if you get mowed down by 4 people and theres only 1 of you chances are you were going to lose regardless, and the stealth aspect of it has nothing to do with it. Except now you've removed your own option of possibly getting away.
I can give you several scenarios crouching has helped me. I main a magic sorc.
Scenario 1: Escape. Sometimes when I'm facing way too many people and about to get zerged down, I can streak +boundless storm to gain some distance duck behind a rock for line of sight and then crouch to stealth and move out of the area. I survive the encounter, maintain my position and once the zerg has passed or given up, I can then pick off stragglers or those who stayed behind looking for me.
Scenario 2: Scouting. as a magic sorc, crouching stealth allows me to scout ahead a bit. I can't just be spamming my shields 100% of the time to stay alive. I'm a gankers dream in all light armor. But with crouch I can survey the battle field, maintain distance, and decide if I want to engage the enemy or not. Next time you go into PVP look on the map for a conflict, and go to it, then without using crouch try and scope out whats going on, whos fighting, wheres the breach, etc. If its the enemy I'd put money on 20 people running right for you. and what fun is it to constantly get zerged?
Scenario 3: Set a trap. I can take a resource by myself, and then hide, waiting for the enemy to come and try and flip. If the enemy sees someone just standing there witht he NPCs they're not going to fight all of you, most would just walk away. The trap works when the enemy thinks no one is there. Now, you may not like when someone does this, but it's a valid form of combat, and it's easily avoided, just dont go to the resource. (or dont go alone at least)
Scenario 4: Resurrection. I cant count the number of times team mates have died and I managed to escape, and stealth my way back to res them. removing crouch makes this either an impossible task or something only the rich can do which leads me to....
Scenario 5: economy. removing crouching and giving the non-NB classes the only option of invis pots would cause those ingredient and potion prices to skyrocket. This creates the situation i mentioned before where only the rich or truely dedicated can escape fights or stealth res now.
Scenario 6: the Imperial City. Gankers love IC, like a fat kid loves cake. If I couldn't stealth without the assistance of a pot, I'd never get around in there at all.
Scenario 7: It promotes the ganker style. Since you mentioned the gankers before, remove crouch doesnt effect them, most of them are NBs already who would still have cloak to remain hidden. Cloak allows them to be standing right next to you undetected. At least Crouch stealth breaks when you get too close to enemies. Remove crouch and the game becomes zerg v zerg with hidden NBs everywhere waiting to pounce on eachother.
I could go on but you get the idea. I sympathize with you, I understand you've probably been in some scenarios where the enemy kept getting away from crouch and you didnt want to waste the resources spamming AOEs or mage light looking for them. It annoyed you and you'd like to see it removed. I've been there, I cant count the number of times I've yelled "stupid immovable pots" when I can't CC the enemy at all ever. But it doesnt mean they should be removed. theres a lot of utility there and I'm also willing to bet you avoid using crouch because you hate that style of play so much... But give it a shot, utilize it, it's a tool we all have.
Getting rid of crouch wouldn't promote ganking or making it easier for you to get ganked. Perma-crouch is how gankers profit. I am not sure how much you actually pvp based on your statements.
All I do is PVP. That's how I gave you 7 scenarios worth of evidence on how removing crouch is a bad idea. You have yet to give me a counter argument other than what amounts to "I dont like it when people hide while I'm trying to kill them." which isnt a valid reason.
You only responded to scenario 7, with "no it doesnt" that's also not a counter argument. But I'll re-state it for you. If you removed the ability to crouch to stealth, How does this impact a ganker? A ganker is USUALLY a NB and they still have cloak, a much stronger version of stealth. The other gankers who dont use NB will need to either buy pots or make a NB. To top that off, If solo and small scale players can't stealth up to avoid zergs, they run into the same issue. run pots to hide, or make a NB. How does this all not promote more ganking and zerging?
I didn't respond to all your scenarios because I understand when crouch is useful. I am speaking to the health of PvP and there would be negatives to the change but I feel it would be better overall.
What I was stating is that ganking wouldn't become easier; it would become more difficult because common sense...
Currently, all classes have access to crouch, pots and cp passive and NB already have cloak. So how does removing one tool of gankers make ganking easier?
And yes, there would be more occurrences of being zerged down.
Lastly, I don't have time IRL to speak to everyone's response in full detail.
Edit: Typo
You're talking about "health of PVP" and then say "there would be negatives" and "yes more occurrences of being zerged down" that doesnt make sense. If its a negative impact, and it causes more zerging, which we all agree sucks, how is it healthy for pvp?
It's also a bit strange you're saying you want a serious discussion and yet dont respond in turn. I'm not asking for an in depth analysis or full detail but "no it doesnt" isnt constructive to the overall discussion.
I maintain, crouch is fine, theres plenty of counters, lots of utility, and makes PVP more interesting.
With any decision in life, you have to weigh the negatives and positives. If there are negatives that come out of that decision, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. Life Lesson #34(?)
And yes, zergs can be frustrating; however, with experience you can get pretty good at avoiding zergs without any kind of stealth. But sometimes, the zerg is unavoidable. I do think this change would make it harder to solo but I wouldn’t say it would result in more zergs. I think it would cause more groups (whatever the size may be) but not necessarily zergs.
To more clearly illustrate my view, ultimately, I want more risk involved with going into cyrodiil. It isn’t necessarily related to ganking, specifically. I am more concerned with people being able to stealth across the map with hardly any chance of being spotted. For example, scouting (as you stated) should be a pretty risky endeavor. Currently, a person (NB or not) can scout with ease as long as you know the high-traffic areas based on the current map status. That logic could be applied to most of the scenarios you laid out.
Then when I said ‘discussion,’ I didn’t mean just between you and me. I hoped this would be a discussion between multiple parties. I do appreciate your POV (as I do use crouch currently in some scenarios and it is beneficial) but I also ask for an open mind as well.
I actually found a recent post by a well-known PvPer on PC NA who shares the same view. Maybe we can get some of their take on the matter. @IryliaBased on Joy Division's Thread
Game Changes:
GENERAL:
1. No Stealthing (Crouch stealth) Only invis pots or cloak as means to go stealthed
Or anyone else who wants to chime in....0 -
laissezfaire✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »It is a core mechanism in all ES games . Having an expectation of its removal is unrealistic to the franchise . It is the way they made stealth and I would not expect them to remove it . Also the realistic argument in a world full of wizards , 360 degrees of block and rebuilding a castle wall in seconds by one person is nullified .
I really started the post to mainly get other peoples opinion and yes, my 'logic' (about how does one stealth) doesn't exactly do my argument any real good. It was mainly just a good way to get the ball rolling.
But as far as sneak always being in TES, it still would be in PvE. Also, TES has never been an MMO so sometimes change is good.Edited by laissezfaire on September 21, 2017 8:32PM0 -
josh.lackey_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »It is a core mechanism in all ES games . Having an expectation of its removal is unrealistic to the franchise . It is the way they made stealth and I would not expect them to remove it . Also the realistic argument in a world full of wizards , 360 degrees of block and rebuilding a castle wall in seconds by one person is nullified .
And crouch would still be in the game, just not in PvP -- which is not a core mechanic of any of the ES games.
I don't mind a limited ability to hide, but being able to become effectively invisible anytime, anywhere is goofy. Maybe if you could only hide after a longer delay, but not be able to move around while hidden. Or if you did move, it would be significantly slower. Or maybe you could not crouch until you got out of combat. Or at least it should be a lot harder to hide in an open field from someone who were just fighting. You know?
Also bowtard light attacks should not get free stuns while shooting from crouch unless you give them to staffs, too. I mean, I swear I watch these guys up on a keep wall just shooting, then crouching down and then disappear, and then shooting, and then croutching down, and then disappearing. I mean, seriously, the guy just shot you, and stunned you, and you had to break free, you kinda know he's there! How can he be hidden in the exact same spot just to snipe at you again in 7 seconds for another stun. There is nothing stealthy about that!
IMO get rid of cloak, too. Broken unfair mechanic. No need for nightblades in pvp, it should be a pve only class.Edited by josh.lackey_ESO on September 21, 2017 9:57PM0 -
catalyst10e✭✭✭✭catalyst10e wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »
I can ask the same thing of the invis pots tho.
4 are in perma stealth via invis pots or cloak. In the case of cloak, they're not even really losing any resources, hows it any different than crouching? but again, even if they werent in stealth at all, if you get mowed down by 4 people and theres only 1 of you chances are you were going to lose regardless, and the stealth aspect of it has nothing to do with it. Except now you've removed your own option of possibly getting away.
I can give you several scenarios crouching has helped me. I main a magic sorc.
Scenario 1: Escape. Sometimes when I'm facing way too many people and about to get zerged down, I can streak +boundless storm to gain some distance duck behind a rock for line of sight and then crouch to stealth and move out of the area. I survive the encounter, maintain my position and once the zerg has passed or given up, I can then pick off stragglers or those who stayed behind looking for me.
Scenario 2: Scouting. as a magic sorc, crouching stealth allows me to scout ahead a bit. I can't just be spamming my shields 100% of the time to stay alive. I'm a gankers dream in all light armor. But with crouch I can survey the battle field, maintain distance, and decide if I want to engage the enemy or not. Next time you go into PVP look on the map for a conflict, and go to it, then without using crouch try and scope out whats going on, whos fighting, wheres the breach, etc. If its the enemy I'd put money on 20 people running right for you. and what fun is it to constantly get zerged?
Scenario 3: Set a trap. I can take a resource by myself, and then hide, waiting for the enemy to come and try and flip. If the enemy sees someone just standing there witht he NPCs they're not going to fight all of you, most would just walk away. The trap works when the enemy thinks no one is there. Now, you may not like when someone does this, but it's a valid form of combat, and it's easily avoided, just dont go to the resource. (or dont go alone at least)
Scenario 4: Resurrection. I cant count the number of times team mates have died and I managed to escape, and stealth my way back to res them. removing crouch makes this either an impossible task or something only the rich can do which leads me to....
Scenario 5: economy. removing crouching and giving the non-NB classes the only option of invis pots would cause those ingredient and potion prices to skyrocket. This creates the situation i mentioned before where only the rich or truely dedicated can escape fights or stealth res now.
Scenario 6: the Imperial City. Gankers love IC, like a fat kid loves cake. If I couldn't stealth without the assistance of a pot, I'd never get around in there at all.
Scenario 7: It promotes the ganker style. Since you mentioned the gankers before, remove crouch doesnt effect them, most of them are NBs already who would still have cloak to remain hidden. Cloak allows them to be standing right next to you undetected. At least Crouch stealth breaks when you get too close to enemies. Remove crouch and the game becomes zerg v zerg with hidden NBs everywhere waiting to pounce on eachother.
I could go on but you get the idea. I sympathize with you, I understand you've probably been in some scenarios where the enemy kept getting away from crouch and you didnt want to waste the resources spamming AOEs or mage light looking for them. It annoyed you and you'd like to see it removed. I've been there, I cant count the number of times I've yelled "stupid immovable pots" when I can't CC the enemy at all ever. But it doesnt mean they should be removed. theres a lot of utility there and I'm also willing to bet you avoid using crouch because you hate that style of play so much... But give it a shot, utilize it, it's a tool we all have.
Getting rid of crouch wouldn't promote ganking or making it easier for you to get ganked. Perma-crouch is how gankers profit. I am not sure how much you actually pvp based on your statements.
All I do is PVP. That's how I gave you 7 scenarios worth of evidence on how removing crouch is a bad idea. You have yet to give me a counter argument other than what amounts to "I dont like it when people hide while I'm trying to kill them." which isnt a valid reason.
You only responded to scenario 7, with "no it doesnt" that's also not a counter argument. But I'll re-state it for you. If you removed the ability to crouch to stealth, How does this impact a ganker? A ganker is USUALLY a NB and they still have cloak, a much stronger version of stealth. The other gankers who dont use NB will need to either buy pots or make a NB. To top that off, If solo and small scale players can't stealth up to avoid zergs, they run into the same issue. run pots to hide, or make a NB. How does this all not promote more ganking and zerging?
I didn't respond to all your scenarios because I understand when crouch is useful. I am speaking to the health of PvP and there would be negatives to the change but I feel it would be better overall.
What I was stating is that ganking wouldn't become easier; it would become more difficult because common sense...
Currently, all classes have access to crouch, pots and cp passive and NB already have cloak. So how does removing one tool of gankers make ganking easier?
And yes, there would be more occurrences of being zerged down.
Lastly, I don't have time IRL to speak to everyone's response in full detail.
Edit: Typocatalyst10e wrote: »catalyst10e wrote: »
I can ask the same thing of the invis pots tho.
4 are in perma stealth via invis pots or cloak. In the case of cloak, they're not even really losing any resources, hows it any different than crouching? but again, even if they werent in stealth at all, if you get mowed down by 4 people and theres only 1 of you chances are you were going to lose regardless, and the stealth aspect of it has nothing to do with it. Except now you've removed your own option of possibly getting away.
I can give you several scenarios crouching has helped me. I main a magic sorc.
Scenario 1: Escape. Sometimes when I'm facing way too many people and about to get zerged down, I can streak +boundless storm to gain some distance duck behind a rock for line of sight and then crouch to stealth and move out of the area. I survive the encounter, maintain my position and once the zerg has passed or given up, I can then pick off stragglers or those who stayed behind looking for me.
Scenario 2: Scouting. as a magic sorc, crouching stealth allows me to scout ahead a bit. I can't just be spamming my shields 100% of the time to stay alive. I'm a gankers dream in all light armor. But with crouch I can survey the battle field, maintain distance, and decide if I want to engage the enemy or not. Next time you go into PVP look on the map for a conflict, and go to it, then without using crouch try and scope out whats going on, whos fighting, wheres the breach, etc. If its the enemy I'd put money on 20 people running right for you. and what fun is it to constantly get zerged?
Scenario 3: Set a trap. I can take a resource by myself, and then hide, waiting for the enemy to come and try and flip. If the enemy sees someone just standing there witht he NPCs they're not going to fight all of you, most would just walk away. The trap works when the enemy thinks no one is there. Now, you may not like when someone does this, but it's a valid form of combat, and it's easily avoided, just dont go to the resource. (or dont go alone at least)
Scenario 4: Resurrection. I cant count the number of times team mates have died and I managed to escape, and stealth my way back to res them. removing crouch makes this either an impossible task or something only the rich can do which leads me to....
Scenario 5: economy. removing crouching and giving the non-NB classes the only option of invis pots would cause those ingredient and potion prices to skyrocket. This creates the situation i mentioned before where only the rich or truely dedicated can escape fights or stealth res now.
Scenario 6: the Imperial City. Gankers love IC, like a fat kid loves cake. If I couldn't stealth without the assistance of a pot, I'd never get around in there at all.
Scenario 7: It promotes the ganker style. Since you mentioned the gankers before, remove crouch doesnt effect them, most of them are NBs already who would still have cloak to remain hidden. Cloak allows them to be standing right next to you undetected. At least Crouch stealth breaks when you get too close to enemies. Remove crouch and the game becomes zerg v zerg with hidden NBs everywhere waiting to pounce on eachother.
I could go on but you get the idea. I sympathize with you, I understand you've probably been in some scenarios where the enemy kept getting away from crouch and you didnt want to waste the resources spamming AOEs or mage light looking for them. It annoyed you and you'd like to see it removed. I've been there, I cant count the number of times I've yelled "stupid immovable pots" when I can't CC the enemy at all ever. But it doesnt mean they should be removed. theres a lot of utility there and I'm also willing to bet you avoid using crouch because you hate that style of play so much... But give it a shot, utilize it, it's a tool we all have.
Getting rid of crouch wouldn't promote ganking or making it easier for you to get ganked. Perma-crouch is how gankers profit. I am not sure how much you actually pvp based on your statements.
All I do is PVP. That's how I gave you 7 scenarios worth of evidence on how removing crouch is a bad idea. You have yet to give me a counter argument other than what amounts to "I dont like it when people hide while I'm trying to kill them." which isnt a valid reason.
You only responded to scenario 7, with "no it doesnt" that's also not a counter argument. But I'll re-state it for you. If you removed the ability to crouch to stealth, How does this impact a ganker? A ganker is USUALLY a NB and they still have cloak, a much stronger version of stealth. The other gankers who dont use NB will need to either buy pots or make a NB. To top that off, If solo and small scale players can't stealth up to avoid zergs, they run into the same issue. run pots to hide, or make a NB. How does this all not promote more ganking and zerging?
I didn't respond to all your scenarios because I understand when crouch is useful. I am speaking to the health of PvP and there would be negatives to the change but I feel it would be better overall.
What I was stating is that ganking wouldn't become easier; it would become more difficult because common sense...
Currently, all classes have access to crouch, pots and cp passive and NB already have cloak. So how does removing one tool of gankers make ganking easier?
And yes, there would be more occurrences of being zerged down.
Lastly, I don't have time IRL to speak to everyone's response in full detail.
Edit: Typo
You're talking about "health of PVP" and then say "there would be negatives" and "yes more occurrences of being zerged down" that doesnt make sense. If its a negative impact, and it causes more zerging, which we all agree sucks, how is it healthy for pvp?
It's also a bit strange you're saying you want a serious discussion and yet dont respond in turn. I'm not asking for an in depth analysis or full detail but "no it doesnt" isnt constructive to the overall discussion.
I maintain, crouch is fine, theres plenty of counters, lots of utility, and makes PVP more interesting.
With any decision in life, you have to weigh the negatives and positives. If there are negatives that come out of that decision, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. Life Lesson #34(?)
And yes, zergs can be frustrating; however, with experience you can get pretty good at avoiding zergs without any kind of stealth. But sometimes, the zerg is unavoidable. I do think this change would make it harder to solo but I wouldn’t say it would result in more zergs. I think it would cause more groups (whatever the size may be) but not necessarily zergs.
To more clearly illustrate my view, ultimately, I want more risk involved with going into cyrodiil. It isn’t necessarily related to ganking, specifically. I am more concerned with people being able to stealth across the map with hardly any chance of being spotted. For example, scouting (as you stated) should be a pretty risky endeavor. Currently, a person (NB or not) can scout with ease as long as you know the high-traffic areas based on the current map status. That logic could be applied to most of the scenarios you laid out.
Then when I said ‘discussion,’ I didn’t mean just between you and me. I hoped this would be a discussion between multiple parties. I do appreciate your POV (as I do use crouch currently in some scenarios and it is beneficial) but I also ask for an open mind as well.
I actually found a recent post by a well-known PvPer on PC NA who shares the same view. Maybe we can get some of their take on the matter. @IryliaBased on Joy Division's Thread
Game Changes:
GENERAL:
1. No Stealthing (Crouch stealth) Only invis pots or cloak as means to go stealthed
Or anyone else who wants to chime in....
Yes but wouldn't you agree if the negatives outweigh the "positive" aspects of the decision, it's beneficial to NOT do it? Like, If I wanted to shoot myself in the foot... the positive aspect is I get bed rest, and possibly pain pills, but the negative is I'm shooting my self in the foot, possibly get addicted to pain meds, and have to go through physical therapy to walk proper again, perhaps it's a better idea to just NOT shoot my own foot.
The only benefit you've spoken about is just less ganking, or fights end with someone dead not someone hiding. The people who often ask for this type of change come off as needing to l2p. If you're in pvp and someone is legitimately using crouch stealth and nothing else to get away from you, and they lose you, GOOD. You dont deserve that kill anyhow. It's the easiest form of stealth to counter.
Sometimes the zergs are unavoidable? No... not really... Thanks to stealth, and reliable mobility they are completely avoidable. Take out my ability to scout ahead, or check for a zerg and yeah they become unavoidable and then it's back to horse simulator. Which is counter intuitive to PVP. I came into PVP to fight and take keeps not to constantly get zerged down and ride my horse out to get zerged down again.
To your personal point on adding more risk to Cyrodiil. I've never heard of anyone crouch stealthing across a map. I mean... if people are... more power to them i guess? I can ride my horse across the map without stealthing just fine. It's as you mentioned, if you know the routes and high traffic areas you know where to avoid. However that's something that comes with experience. To a new player, who isnt familiar with the high traffic spots, they're going to have a horrible time getting zerged without any defense to it at all. And PVPs biggest issue right now is getting more and newer players into PVP and staying in PVP. You can search these forums for all the times people have asked for a PVE version of cyrodiil because they absolutely dont want to fight other players. You'd effectively be removing a major aspect of what can keep newer PVPers around. Otherwise they're not getting better as players, they'll just join or make a zerg, or worse just not PVP ever again.
If you remove the crouch stealth effectively Mage blades are then the only ones who can scout, since they have cloak, and the resources to spam it. That just makes a demand for NBs, it doesnt add anything to the overall PVP. The good players will just buy invis pots, and utilize them the same way crouch is being used, and it'll create a divide between the players who arent willing or arent able to buy those pots and the ones who can. Which brings me back to the beginners, how will they know that before they ever start to PVP they need to buy invis pots (if they can afford it)? not to mention invis pots are sold in the crown store, so You'd really be pushing the "pay to win" argument out there. Cant afford to escape the zerg with gold? well give us real money and then you can!"Why settle for just stabbing your foes when you can roast them alive in a gout of arcane fire?"
[| DC Breton Sorcerer || NA PS4 || PSN: Catalyst10e |]
[| DC Dunmer Dragon Knight |]0 -
WildWilbur✭✭✭✭My gift for the OP: my sig!"Call me a killjoy, but I think that because this is not to my taste, no one else should be able to enjoy it." Marge Simpson0
