About the new Agony and NB Healing/Tanking

Jeezye

Well, first of all I am glad that ZOS decided to upgrade or rework all the pesky useless class abilities we currently have in the game. Everyone love build variety! I want to discuss the changes to NBs, particuallary the changes to Agony, which is the most important change.

1. ZOS recognized that it needed attention - great!
2. ZOS also recognized that NB healing is in a bad position atm - also great! Additionally, I'd like to remind that NB tanking too got a huge nerf after the siphoning strikes changes - more regarding to this topic later on.
3. As Im a dedicated PvPer, most of this reply is PvP related, though I'll keep PvE changes in mind.
4. To the Agony changes: Basically, it now provides a strong heal over time to ONE target ally over 10 seconds, approx ~13% more than rapid regeneration. However, it inflicts damage to yourself equal to 50% of the healing done. One morph provides you with minor mending everytime you heal an ally with this ability for 2 seconds, the other morph reduced the self-damage portion to 35%.

To start off, changing this skill to a healing ability is a good idea, since NBs have somewhat enough damage abilities and lack group healing as stated above. This rework however does not appeal to be a good solution in my opinion. Why? From a PvPers perspective, I would NEVER run a skill that directly harms myself, as it is harsh enough already to stay alive as a magblade. The skill provides a HOT to one target, which is inferior to mutagen, which heals two allies for only 13% less. And it doesn't harm you. To put it simple: You don't gain benefits compared to Mutagen while receiving huge disadvantages. The minor mending won't change much to that. Even 35% damage from healing will also position the skill inferior to mutagen. Now, PvE wise, especially from a Trials perspective, I can't see how a healer wants to harm himself as well and be a potential subject to a onehit. Again, rapid regen being superior to the rework.

Now, I'm sure its reported already, but the self-damage portion of the skill actually INCREASES as you buff your damage up with e.g. minor beserk, CPs etc. I'm sure this is a bug, but you can basically buff it up to where it damages you for 70% of healing done. This is obviously unintended.

Now my solutions to this skill. As stated above, NBs need healing and tanking capabilities. Because of that, I'd like to see morphs that each provide one aspect. To fall in line with the Siphoning theme, this skill is supposed to affect the NBs own health pool as well as providing group utility. I think that NBs already have enough access to healing over times (refreshing path, strife, mutagen, ...) and are more in need for a burst heal. Because the class would get pretty powerful though, it does have to come with downsides. Therefore, I propose:

Base ability: Change to burst heal for two targets (similar to BoL and the Sorc Twilight), but inflict 50% of the healing done as damage to yourself (BEFORE resistances and Buffs). As the healed ally looses health, the heal becomes more potent.
This makes up for the lack of burst heals that the class has access to while putting the NB in a dangerous position as well. However, as the NB gets more tanky via buffs and resistances, the harming effect becomes less powerful

1. Morph: Healing an ally below 50% health also grants you major vitality and minor protection for 3? seconds.
This allows the NB to better recover from the damage it takes when healing allies whith low health, since healing for high amounts also inclicts high self-damage. Beacause the objective is to recover rather than dish out more healing, major vitality seems to be more suitable than major mending.

2. Morph: This skill now stores all damage taken in the last 3? seconds (BEFORE resistances and Buffs). Activating the skill unleashes the stored damage, healing all allies within 4? meters for 30% of the damage stored. Costs X Magicka.
This allows Tank NBs to recover from heavy burst, such as is inflicted in heated PvP battles or due to Boss Nukes. At the same time, it provides healing for close allies, forcing the NB to position itself carefully. On top of that, it prevents the class from having access to a spammable burstheal, since it scales with taken damage, making it much less effective in situations the NB doesn't take damage.

Again, these changes are geared towards providing healing as well as tankiness to the class if it chooses to build in that way. DPS nightblades will get significantly less benefits from this skill and its morphs, as resistances and buffs play a major role in reducing the negative effects of these skills.

If you made it this far, I'm glad to hear feedback to this topic and even other suggestions.
Cheers!

Mystrius_Archaion

Jeezye wrote: »

4. To the Agony changes: Basically, it now provides a strong heal over time to ONE target ally over 10 seconds, approx ~13% more than rapid regeneration. However, it inflicts damage to yourself equal to 50% of the healing done. One morph provides you with minor mending everytime you heal an ally with this ability for 2 seconds, the other morph reduced the self-damage portion to 35%.

So by default, it's clearly worse than the, I thought intentionally sub-par, Rapid Regeneration? 13% more healing to undo that and takes even more damage thus undoing at least a third of the total value?

You should never be using this skill when solo, and very seriously reconsider even thinking about it in a group, or you may just die right after barely surviving a big hit.

Maryal

Well, there have been a number of outcries to change what some folks considered 'useless' skills (I am using all my restraint to not name any names here). Well, I suppose we should give a huge round of 'thanks' to those folks for calling so much attention to the 'useless' current version of agony that the ZOS 'skill fairy' heard them and magically made their dreams come true!

Wow! a brand new skill /morphs to replace the 'old' (current version) of agony!!!! The only problem I see with this new skill is the name ... the new skill should be called: Kamikaze. ... after all .... the obvious intent of this new skill is to use it in pvp. Oh yea, this skill will most definitely be on my front AND back bar! If I could put this skill in more than one slot per bar I most certainly would (cough cough). OOOOOooooo! Perhaps we should ask for a complete rework of surprise attack and ambush and fear while were are at it!!!! Wonder what changes we would get for those useless (cough cough) skills!

Oh yea, lets not stop at NBs, no no no! We need to share the joy! Lets ask for such wonderful changes to skills for ALL classes! You know the old saying... strike while the iron's hot ....

Feanor

No class skill should give Major Vitality, it should stay potion exclusive and therefore have a huge cost attached.

Jeezye

Maryal wrote: »

Well, there have been a number of outcries to change what some folks considered 'useless' skills (I am using all my restraint to not name any names here). Well, I suppose we should give a huge 'thanks' to those folks for this brand new wonderful skill that is so much more useful than the old skill/morphs were. You asked and ZOS listened. Oh yea, this will most definitely be on my front AND back bar! If I could put this skill in more than one slot per bar I most certainly would (cough cough). OOOOOooooo! Perhaps we should ask for a complete rework of surprise attack and ambush and fear while were are at it!!!! Wonder what ZOS would do with those skills!

Oh yea, lets not stop at NBs, no no no! We need to share the joy! Lets ask for such wonderful changes to skills for ALL classes! You know the old saying... strike while the iron's hot ....

Well as I've played my Magblade since launch throughout a variety of content, I can safely say that agony was not a valuable skill and only provided somewhat utility in niche situations.
That is, taking certain NPCs out of combat in e.g. Maelstrom arena, pissing off Players on their horses in Cyrodiil or stunning them in the water, or assuring a direkt hit with meteor etc while providing a tiny dot.
The skill didn't get touched since launch and was never really implemented in builds. They decided right to change it and I'm happy about it.

As for other classes, there are still skills that could need reworks, but you know, I'm just happy that they are doing anything at all.

Jeezye

Feanor wrote: »

No class skill should give Major Vitality, it should stay potion exclusive and therefore have a huge cost attached.

Totally disagree. Major Vitality is far inferior to Major Mending, since the selfhealing will be on par whether you have vitality or mending active, but the outgoing healing to allies also increases with mending.

I must have forgotten that DKs and Wardens have permanent access to major mending (and Templars used to - noone asked to remove it btw). Ohh, and since they decreased the vitality uptime on potions to 15 seconds they became very weak imo. You can also access it via Malubeth BTW, which has a very high uptime.

arkansas_ESO

Feanor wrote: »

No class skill should give Major Vitality, it should stay potion exclusive and therefore have a huge cost attached.

NB already has access to Major Vitality through Soul Siphon and can give it to allies

Feanor

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

No class skill should give Major Vitality, it should stay potion exclusive and therefore have a huge cost attached.

NB already has access to Major Vitality through Soul Siphon and can give it to allies

That's an ultimate and therefore ok.

Turelus

I'm really glad this skill is getting a change and becoming a heal.

I am not sure I like how it functions entirely yet but it does feel very in line with the siphoning theme of the Nightblade.

As said in the OP these negatives seem a little too much for me to consider this always a bar skill heal for others. Hopefully we get some good feedback (like this thread) and iteration on the skill before it goes live.

Mystrius_Archaion

Feanor wrote: »

No class skill should give Major Vitality, it should stay potion exclusive and therefore have a huge cost attached.

It's not potion exclusive. It's also given by at least one monster helm set, as a proc. And comparatively, doing a resto heavy attack gives major mending for a few seconds after with no cooldown.

And really they need something to make this suicide skill less suicidal.

Rex-Umbra

I really hope they go more towards your proposal with the skill.

actosh

The skill should scale with your highest ressource.

aeowulf

I hope it doesn't scale with max health! on that subject, there are already plenty of ignored NB tank improvement threads on here, (for example: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4315747) NB were gutted with Morrowind and are now loosing a root (which was a life saver when i started playing) and we are getting a suicide? I think this new skill will be used less that the old one... I can't actually see the new skill being used much unless it also gave you major protection and a stack loads of resistance whilst it was ticking, and that's only if you are the MT and it's pulsing out a TON of healing to the lowest HP party member. From a purely tanky perspective, we have no skills that scale from max health, making higher health builds less useful. DK get group shields, warden get a heal and AoE DD that scale.

Hmmm, will we now be able to get AP off ourselves in Cyrodiil when we use the new skill?

Minno

The morph looks to be intended for pve encounters. Think of it this way:
- DMG done to you to increase the healing done over time to one player (tank).
- tank can place guard ability in NB. This might reduce the DMG incoming from this ability greatly.-
- another strong Hot can potentially equalize this (mutagen, NB path, heal on LA procs via degeneration, etc.)

It would be cool to see a team use this ability to provide a tank centric healer build. For PvP, I can see it boosting an effect similar to guard for healing teammate that is focused. Whereas the only similar ability that exists are under the warden/Templar toolkit (vines/BoL).

Jeezye

Minno wrote: »

The morph looks to be intended for pve encounters. Think of it this way:
- DMG done to you to increase the healing done over time to one player (tank).
- tank can place guard ability in NB. This might reduce the DMG incoming from this ability greatly.-
- another strong Hot can potentially equalize this (mutagen, NB path, heal on LA procs via degeneration, etc.)

It would be cool to see a team use this ability to provide a tank centric healer build. For PvP, I can see it boosting an effect similar to guard for healing teammate that is focused. Whereas the only similar ability that exists are under the warden/Templar toolkit (vines/BoL).

While I think combining abilities and adjusting group builds to exploit synergies is a very nice feature of the game, I think every ability needs to be viable and productive as a stand-alone. Therefore, even if this ability can be powerful in certain environments, it should still offer benefits to players who want to use it in different scenarios. Not everyone is playing in a group, not eveyone is playing PvP, etc...

zyk

The current Agony is not useless. A ranged CC is very useful in PVP. Malefic Wreath provides an option to layer damage and add to burst. It's really crappy it's being removed from the game. I think ZOS could instead change a morph of Agony or Cripple to HOT instead of removing the current ability completely.

I agree the hype for the new version exceeds its current value. I prefer Mutagen, especially with the vMA resto staff getting a buff.

If this ability is to be changed, I'd like it to be changed in a way that allows Magicka NBs to play without a resto in PVP which isn't really viable most of the time. Because other classes have shields and/or better heals, they are better enabled to do this.

From a PVP POV, I would like a mechanic that works like Rally by giving a HOT along with an occasional burst option.

Narvuntien

Hmm I like the idea of healing a % of damage dealt to you whille the ability is active. Maybe the taking less damage from the heal morph should be a flip of the ability Heal for 50% of damage taken whille the ability is active. Could be nice for self cast on tanks or helping allies in PVP.

Also should also scale with max resource.

I mean a Health cost Burst heal with a Hot and Self damage over time component is also a good option, the "vigor" option. That could also be one of the morphs.

Jeezye

@Narvuntien

Narvuntien wrote: »

I mean a Health cost Burst heal with a Hot and Self damage over time component is also a good option, the "vigor" option. That could also be one of the morphs.

What do you exactly mean with that? The current version of the skill combined with a burst heals is also good?

actosh

If i understood him correctly the skill should work like it does currently and give a burst heal when casting it. Additionly to the hot and dmg component.

Silver_Strider

My problem with the new Agony is just that, even though the heal aspect of the skill is pretty good, it's not really what NB healers need. Between RR/Mutagen, Funnel Health, and Refreshing Path, does NB REALLY need another HoT when their HPS is already on par, if not mildly superior to other classes? Not to mention, the risk of getting killed for using the skill in any real situation would limit it's use very highly because of a combination of how low health is on a healer naturally and how hard some moves can hit for, even when blocked. I can understand making the Siphoning Tree a healing skill line but this new Agony is just going to end up being even less used than it currently is and the fact it only scales on Spell Damage/Max Magic makes it so that Stamina builds just lost their long range stun for a Cyanide Pill.

Just have the skill be a Minor Lifesteal debuff the NB places on an enemy that heals people that damage that enemy. Make the morphs provide a Minor Mending buff for the NB, or have it debuff the enemy with Minor Fracture/Breech for the duration.

kojou

I'm still trying to figure out how this ability would be better to put on a bar instead of Rapid Regen or Mutegen... I think the answer is that I would put Funnel Health, Mutegen, and Malevolent Offering on my bar and Funnel Health + Mutegen should out-heal the damage caused by Malevolent Offering (assuming they fix the issue where the damage is increased to you when you buff up).

One thought that I have is to run it with Troll King. That way if your health ever got below 50% Troll King would kick in and give you a boost.

Even when I used to tank on my Nightblade I didn't run high health build, but this seems like it would require me to run about 30k health to avoid one shot mechanics while using it.

I don't know if making it a "burst" heal is the correct solution either, because it is easy to stack health regen... I could run Bee Keeper + Troll King for example and be able to use my health instead of magic to heal players back to full. Then there is also Orgnum's Scales which increases your health regen by 50% if you go below 60%... A high health Nord Nightblade tank healer might actually become a thing if it were a burst heal...

If the developers had asked me how to make Nightblade healing more viable I would have recommended adding more utility to the skills we already use. Nightblades already can heal with Refreshing Path, Sap Essence, Funnel Health, and Soul Siphon. Refreshing Path, Sap Essence and Funnel Health also damage enemies instead of yourself. Couple that with the obligatory Combat Prayer, Healing Springs, Mutegen, Healing Ward and Energy Orb and you have the necessary tool kit to heal as a Nightblade in most content. If they made Funnel Health heal 2 allies again, and added a synergy to Refreshing Path that gives Minor Intellect and Minor Endurance for 20 seconds that would be enough that I would consider rolling one of my Nightblades back to a healer.

One the one hand I am glad they are attempting to make a skill that nobody uses viable, but I still don't think this skill will make it onto anybody's tool kit. It just doesn't look better than options that are already out there to me.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm still trying to figure out how this ability would be better to put on a bar instead of Rapid Regen or Mutegen... I think the answer is that I would put Funnel Health, Mutegen, and Malevolent Offering on my bar and Funnel Health + Mutegen should out-heal the damage caused by Malevolent Offering (assuming they fix the issue where the damage is increased to you when you buff up.)

Sad to say that’s not a bug that’s tentended that’s heal is based on Max Magicka and Spell Damage you buff that and you buff the heal. Now the damage you take is based on the healing done so if you buff up you heal more so you take more damage. If you heal the Tank who is passively build to take more healer thanks to Heavy Armor passive, CP, race (Argonians) and of course class passive (looking at you Dragon Knights) this power can really nuke you.

My Argonian Dragon Knight is at +51% healing received that’s just race, CP, Armor and Class buff with one +4% healing taken set bonus. This skill is not good.

Nox_Noir

I like your suggestions.
In it's current state on PTS the skill does not really tackle the problems of the class, nor does it seem very useful in any other way.