For CWC: Can We Finally Make Bows Worth It?

STEVIL

Another DLC, another patch and another opportunity to finally make bows what they need to be as a stamina weapon.

Currently, bows are in a sad state, with only a few cases where they have a role in any sort of top-end near-optimal to optimal results play:
PVP-1 As a ranged stamina surprise striker a bow can do fine.
PVP-2 As the backbar for 2H primary. the bow can do fine.
PVP-3 As a primary for circumstantially chosen tactics and strategy such as firing from keep walls or behind a wall of bodies in a mob, bows can do fine.
PVE-1 As a backbar for group/trial DW sustained DPS, bows can do fine.
PVE-2 As a main bar for maelstrom, where range plays some role, bows can do fine

of course bow can also do fine in the lower difficulty areas down to say vet level.

that list makes it obvious why it is that bows are now rarely seen in play and need a buff, a significant buff, so that in addition to all of the above bows would be a top-tier close-to-optimal or optimal choices for PVE DPS and PVP as the main weapon as well for that top-end competitive score play.

So, please, lets finally let CWC be the place that changes it all and puts bows where they deserve to be with significant buffs to get them there.

its so long overdue and let me say it, well past due,, isn't it?

SodanTok

Who are you and what have you done with STEVIL, the antibow guy

Screamo

Actually its a bow ability that deals the most %dps of stam classes in endgame pve so i wouldn't say bows need a pve buff.

kojou

The only way to make Bow + Bow viable would be to have more non-weapon ranged DoT skills that are based on Stamina and Weapon Damage.

If you give up dual wield then you also give up Blood Craze, and Deadly Cloak which are good DoTs and help fill out your 2 bars of skills.

If for example each class had a Stamina ranged DoT, and Silver Bolts was changed to a viable ranged DoT, and the damage for Trapping Webs was buffed to make it a viable DoT then you would have enough ranged DoTs that you wouldn't need the skill line of a 2nd weapon to fill out your rotation.

I'm sure there are other things that would have to be improved a bit as well, but from my perspective this biggest limit is the number of damage skills you can slot if you only have 2 bows slotted.

Olupajmibanan

Bow is the best and only viable option for end-game PvE whatever you go with DW or possibly 2H. So you want to make it the best main bar weapon as well?

There is a reason why is bow behind DW in terms of main weapon. A substitution rule: more safety = less damage. By buffing bow you would break the rule and all melee weapons would go extinct. Why? Because why putting yourself in danger by going melee if you can do the same dps from safety?

casparian

The Bow skill line has the best stamina DOT in the game (Endless Hail), which is mandatory for all endgame stamina PVE builds. The best stamina weapon in the game is also a bow, the Maelstrom Bow. The Bow ultimate (Ballista morph) is one of the two or three best stamina ultimates in the game. The apex Bow ability, Poison Arrow (Poison Injection morph) is one of the very best stamina executes in the game. Even the first Bow ability, Snipe (Focused Aim morph) finds a role in certain endgame PVE builds, as it's a sorce of the rare Minor Fracture debuff.

I won't comment on PVP, as bow is obviously extremely strong there and finds application in a wide variety of builds.

Given this, I'm really perplexed by the (apparently somewhat widespread) idea that bow is underperforming. Bow is virtually mandatory for stamina builds in PVE. I get that Bow/Bow fully ranged stamina builds aren't top-tier, but neither are 2H/2H or DW/DW builds. Are you just annoyed that it can't be your frontbar weapon? Why is that a sufficiently significant issue to warrant the massive rebalancing that bow buffs on the scale you're asking for would require?

kojou

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Bow is the best and only viable option for end-game PvE whatever you go with DW or possibly 2H. So you want to make it the best main bar weapon as well?

There is a reason why is bow behind DW in terms of main weapon. A substitution rule: more safety = less damage. By buffing bow you would break the rule and all melee weapons would go extinct. Why? Because why putting yourself in danger by going melee if you can do the same dps from safety?

I don't think on Stam DK's I would ever go Bow/Bow even if it were a viable play style. I would lose 2 very important class DoTs...

Stam Sorcs wouldn't want to give up the damage from Hurricane.

Stamplars would probably not want to give up Biting Jabs.

The only classes that would probably go Stam ranged if it was viable would be Nightblade and Warden.

Besides that the damage doesn't have to be the same as melee stamina, it just has to be similar to ranged magicka.

idk

As for PvE having a bow on the back bar it's still part of any solid build I've seen. Probably a requirement.

Bow/bow was viable a coupe updated ago. Though with the every changing balancing Zos does every three months that's changed and I expect it'll come back again.

Personally, I think it's great stamina is so strong again though again, it'll go back to magicka being king and then change again. Constant flux.

Unfortunately ZosLogic escapes actual logic.

Kanar

As already mentioned bow is required for best pve stam DPS. I dont think bow/bow should be any more powerful than 2h/2h or dw/dw. If it is to be buffed, it would have to be utility, crowd control or support, not damage.

DDuke

idk wrote: »

As for PvE having a bow on the back bar it's still part of any solid build I've seen. Probably a requirement.

Bow/bow was viable a coupe updated ago. Though with the every changing balancing Zos does every three months that's changed and I expect it'll come back again.

Personally, I think it's great stamina is so strong again though again, it'll go back to magicka being king and then change again. Constant flux.

Unfortunately ZosLogic escapes actual logic.

Bow/Bow (or Bow/Anything in that order) has never been viable, and sadly I don't see this patch changing it unless there's a lot more balance changes coming.

P.S. op, CWC=Cracked Wood Cave!!

SodanTok

casparian wrote: »

The Bow skill line has the best stamina DOT in the game (Endless Hail), which is mandatory for all endgame stamina PVE builds. The best stamina weapon in the game is also a bow, the Maelstrom Bow. The Bow ultimate (Ballista morph) is one of the two or three best stamina ultimates in the game. The apex Bow ability, Poison Arrow (Poison Injection morph) is one of the very best stamina executes in the game. Even the first Bow ability, Snipe (Focused Aim morph) finds a role in certain endgame PVE builds, as it's a sorce of the rare Minor Fracture debuff.

I won't comment on PVP, as bow is obviously extremely strong there and finds application in a wide variety of builds.

Given this, I'm really perplexed by the (apparently somewhat widespread) idea that bow is underperforming. Bow is virtually mandatory for stamina builds in PVE. I get that Bow/Bow fully ranged stamina builds aren't top-tier, but neither are 2H/2H or DW/DW builds. Are you just annoyed that it can't be your frontbar weapon? Why is that a sufficiently significant issue to warrant the massive rebalancing that bow buffs on the scale you're asking for would require?

Bow is underperforming. Front Bar decides how you play and what do you do in fights. Backbar is just to activate buffs and throw in dots. All common backbar stamina DoTs except trap are affected by frontbar weapons.

It's not about bow/bow at all. It is about bow/x and as long as there is no bow/x build that can perform well, bow is underperforming.

STEVIL

SodanTok wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

The Bow skill line has the best stamina DOT in the game (Endless Hail), which is mandatory for all endgame stamina PVE builds. The best stamina weapon in the game is also a bow, the Maelstrom Bow. The Bow ultimate (Ballista morph) is one of the two or three best stamina ultimates in the game. The apex Bow ability, Poison Arrow (Poison Injection morph) is one of the very best stamina executes in the game. Even the first Bow ability, Snipe (Focused Aim morph) finds a role in certain endgame PVE builds, as it's a sorce of the rare Minor Fracture debuff.

I won't comment on PVP, as bow is obviously extremely strong there and finds application in a wide variety of builds.

Given this, I'm really perplexed by the (apparently somewhat widespread) idea that bow is underperforming. Bow is virtually mandatory for stamina builds in PVE. I get that Bow/Bow fully ranged stamina builds aren't top-tier, but neither are 2H/2H or DW/DW builds. Are you just annoyed that it can't be your frontbar weapon? Why is that a sufficiently significant issue to warrant the massive rebalancing that bow buffs on the scale you're asking for would require?

Bow is underperforming. Front Bar decides how you play and what do you do in fights. Backbar is just to activate buffs and throw in dots. All common backbar stamina DoTs except trap are affected by frontbar weapons.

It's not about bow/bow at all. It is about bow/x and as long as there is no bow/x build that can perform well, bow is underperforming.

It should be so obvious that the no amount of other gameplay options or advantages are at all sufficient unless you also have the frontbar top tier performance as well.

Every weapon should be fully capable at the front bar position for any role, regardless of backbar strengths or circumstantial/situational tactical advantages and bow should not be the sole exception to that rule in ESO!!!


Look up "obvious" the dictionary and that is the first example of something that is obvious!!!

Ladislao

Well, Bow/Bow is not worth it as well as 2H/2H or DW/DW. But Bow/X is worth it as well as 1H/2H or 2H/DW.

It has its advantages (primaly range and burst) and opens another game style.
Arrow Spray was buffed in this PTS patch and we've got another strong master weapon. In general, Bow is now in a good state, and the new patch only strengthens it.
With such a pace, it seems to me, it will have to be weakened.

P. S. Of course I meant Bow as a primaly weapon. But Bow as a secondary weapon is even more good.

DDuke

Ladislao wrote: »

Well, Bow/Bow is not worth it as well as 2H/2H or DW/DW. But Bow/X is worth it as well as 1H/2H or 2H/DW.

It has its advantages (primaly range and burst) and opens another game style.
Arrow Spray was buffed in this PTS patch and we've got another strong master weapon. In general, Bow is now in a good state, and the new patch only strengthens it.
With such a pace, it seems to me, it will have to be weakened.

Lol.

Show me one Bow/Anything build that does well in PvP or PvE.


I'll be waiting.

SodanTok

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

The Bow skill line has the best stamina DOT in the game (Endless Hail), which is mandatory for all endgame stamina PVE builds. The best stamina weapon in the game is also a bow, the Maelstrom Bow. The Bow ultimate (Ballista morph) is one of the two or three best stamina ultimates in the game. The apex Bow ability, Poison Arrow (Poison Injection morph) is one of the very best stamina executes in the game. Even the first Bow ability, Snipe (Focused Aim morph) finds a role in certain endgame PVE builds, as it's a sorce of the rare Minor Fracture debuff.

I won't comment on PVP, as bow is obviously extremely strong there and finds application in a wide variety of builds.

Given this, I'm really perplexed by the (apparently somewhat widespread) idea that bow is underperforming. Bow is virtually mandatory for stamina builds in PVE. I get that Bow/Bow fully ranged stamina builds aren't top-tier, but neither are 2H/2H or DW/DW builds. Are you just annoyed that it can't be your frontbar weapon? Why is that a sufficiently significant issue to warrant the massive rebalancing that bow buffs on the scale you're asking for would require?

Bow is underperforming. Front Bar decides how you play and what do you do in fights. Backbar is just to activate buffs and throw in dots. All common backbar stamina DoTs except trap are affected by frontbar weapons.

It's not about bow/bow at all. It is about bow/x and as long as there is no bow/x build that can perform well, bow is underperforming.

It should be so obvious that the no amount of other gameplay options or advantages are at all sufficient unless you also have the frontbar top tier performance as well.

Every weapon should be fully capable at the front bar position for any role, regardless of backbar strengths or circumstantial/situational tactical advantages and bow should not be the sole exception to that rule in ESO!!!


Look up "obvious" the dictionary and that is the first example of something that is obvious!!!

I know (i think?) you are still joking, but this is right. No amount of gameplay options and advantages matter if weapon is incapable of be used on frontbar. What is on backbar is basically free for all.
The damage you do is calculated by front bar, the light/heavy attacks to get resources are done by front bar, the spammable is on front bar.

The only limitation that says it has to be bow/bow and not bow/dw is the loss of ranged (and hawk eye affected) light attacks. Thats how little the backbar weapon matters.

And that is PVE side. In PVP you arent required to have bow backbar. So whats the excuse there?

In short. Backbar bow and frontbar bow are totally different weapons. Every good thing about bow is packed with the backbar one. Every bad thing is the frontbar one.

Ladislao

DDuke wrote: »

Lol.

Show me one Bow/Anything build that does well in PvP or PvE.


I'll be waiting.

PVE. Every stam class use it as secondary. Plus there is Bo-Bo build.
PVP. Bow is good for ganging by at least DKs and NBs. As an open battle and duels, Bow is well used by NBs.

It's just something that I personally know about. For sure, there are many variations besides them. But I will not continue to convince you. You can continue to live in your ignorance, but do not try to impose it on others

DDuke

Ladislao wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lol.

Show me one Bow/Anything build that does well in PvP or PvE.


I'll be waiting.

PVE. Every stam class use it as secondary. Plus there is Bo-Bo build.

Yes, secondary. That's exactly the issue - it's not viable as primary weapon.

And no, there is no Bow/Bow build that I wouldn't instakick from group for dealing sub 40k DPS.

Ladislao wrote: »

PVP. Bow is good for ganging by at least DKs and NBs. As an open battle and duels, Bow is well used by NBs.

Bow users in PvP=free AP. It's almost impossible to get hit by Snipe, even without using addons like Miat's.

I have never, ever lost to a bow build in 1v1. Ever. On any of my 10 characters.

Ladislao wrote: »

It's just something that I personally know about. For sure, there are many variations besides them. But I will not continue to convince you. You can continue to live in your ignorance, but do not try to impose it on others

Well, you don't know *** then. Still waiting for actual proof rather than "what you know" that a bow primary build can do well anywhere.

Bow is light years from being viable in PvE or PvP as main weapon, and that's common knowledge to most top tier players.

Bladerunner1

Longshots and Hawkeye need some help. They could lift the damage of both and perhaps reduce the buff time on Hawkeye so that melee stam DPS builds don't soar any higher than necessary.

AcadianPaladin

A ranged destrostaff/destrostaff character does wonderfully (ask most magsorcs). There should be no reason why a bow/bow stam character cannot be just as viable.

Toc de Malsvi

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

A ranged destrostaff/destrostaff character does wonderfully (ask most magsorcs). There should be no reason why a bow/bow stam character cannot be just as viable.

That's far to reasonable a comparison, better use excessive verbosity to T roll those people you actively hate.

Toc de Malsvi

Ladislao wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lol.

Show me one Bow/Anything build that does well in PvP or PvE.


I'll be waiting.

PVE. Every stam class use it as secondary. Plus there is Bo-Bo build.
PVP. Bow is good for ganging by at least DKs and NBs. As an open battle and duels, Bow is well used by NBs.

It's just something that I personally know about. For sure, there are many variations besides them. But I will not continue to convince you. You can continue to live in your ignorance, but do not try to impose it on others

The part that you obviously skipped over is the implication of "Bow/Anything", that is that Bow be the primary weapon.

As to the claim of ganking with DK's and NB's that hasn't been a real threat for some time now, either you haven't been playing or you are intentionally obfuscating on the issue.

STEVIL

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

A ranged destrostaff/destrostaff character does wonderfully (ask most magsorcs). There should be no reason why a bow/bow stam character cannot be just as viable.

Absolutely!!!

bow should be able to stand up to destro for ranged dps sustained and also when needed be also a key element in the higher/highest dps for the melee type - 2h/bow (pvp) or dw/bow.for pve.

its just obvious to so many that bow should have all that.

SodanTok

STEVIL wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

A ranged destrostaff/destrostaff character does wonderfully (ask most magsorcs). There should be no reason why a bow/bow stam character cannot be just as viable.

Absolutely!!!

bow should be able to stand up to destro for ranged dps sustained and also when needed be also a key element in the higher/highest dps for the melee type - 2h/bow (pvp) or dw/bow.for pve.

its just obvious to so many that bow should have all that.

On the contrary. Nobody is saying it is supposed to be key element in melee DPS. Feel free to create thread demanding backbar bow gets worse for melee players.

STEVIL

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

A ranged destrostaff/destrostaff character does wonderfully (ask most magsorcs). There should be no reason why a bow/bow stam character cannot be just as viable.

Absolutely!!!

bow should be able to stand up to destro for ranged dps sustained and also when needed be also a key element in the higher/highest dps for the melee type - 2h/bow (pvp) or dw/bow.for pve.

its just obvious to so many that bow should have all that.

On the contrary. Nobody is saying it is supposed to be key element in melee DPS. Feel free to create thread demanding backbar bow gets worse for melee players.

Well, some antibow posters may believe or want to imply that in order for bow to get its frontbar top end gains it should have to give up its backbar strengths for melee combats?

But that position seems for some to be firmly at odds with some other pro-bow proponents who have said bow should not have to give anything up to get the front bar power they seek.

SodanTok

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

A ranged destrostaff/destrostaff character does wonderfully (ask most magsorcs). There should be no reason why a bow/bow stam character cannot be just as viable.

Absolutely!!!

bow should be able to stand up to destro for ranged dps sustained and also when needed be also a key element in the higher/highest dps for the melee type - 2h/bow (pvp) or dw/bow.for pve.

its just obvious to so many that bow should have all that.

On the contrary. Nobody is saying it is supposed to be key element in melee DPS. Feel free to create thread demanding backbar bow gets worse for melee players.

Well, some antibow posters may believe or want to imply that in order for bow to get its frontbar top end gains it should have to give up its backbar strengths for melee combats?

But that position seems for some to be firmly at odds with some other pro-bow proponents who have said bow should not have to give anything up to get the front bar power they seek.

People say many things. In the end it does not matter how are thing accomplished. If you go to veteran trial as ranged stamina DD and perform worse single target than both melee stam and ranged magicka (who are AoE kings). It needs buff. If you can go to PVP as stamina ranged DD and lose to every same skilled stamina melee, magicka melee DD and magicka ranged DD in a way that you actually even need to fight magicka ranged builds from melee range. It needs buff.

STEVIL

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

A ranged destrostaff/destrostaff character does wonderfully (ask most magsorcs). There should be no reason why a bow/bow stam character cannot be just as viable.

Absolutely!!!

bow should be able to stand up to destro for ranged dps sustained and also when needed be also a key element in the higher/highest dps for the melee type - 2h/bow (pvp) or dw/bow.for pve.

its just obvious to so many that bow should have all that.

On the contrary. Nobody is saying it is supposed to be key element in melee DPS. Feel free to create thread demanding backbar bow gets worse for melee players.

Well, some antibow posters may believe or want to imply that in order for bow to get its frontbar top end gains it should have to give up its backbar strengths for melee combats?

But that position seems for some to be firmly at odds with some other pro-bow proponents who have said bow should not have to give anything up to get the front bar power they seek.

People say many things. In the end it does not matter how are thing accomplished. If you go to veteran trial as ranged stamina DD and perform worse single target than both melee stam and ranged magicka (who are AoE kings). It needs buff. If you can go to PVP as stamina ranged DD and lose to every same skilled stamina melee, magicka melee DD and magicka ranged DD in a way that you actually even need to fight magicka ranged builds from melee range. It needs buff.

and if that buff comes at the price of lowering the melee backbar strength of bows, sure some antibow advocates might be happy with that but certainly not all pro-bow proponents - nor for that matter likely many stamina DPS types who see their primary backbar get nerfed in the hunt for frontbow-premacy.

likely as not they would even start threads complaining about how they get matched by bows in PVP combats and also then have to face issues with like bows on keep wall and behind walls of front line zerg stuff. it would be just like them to complain that being even matched in straight up fights and also so disadvantaged in those other circumstances is somehow unfair cuz, you know, they are just antibow to the core. Some might even try and pretend that bow sneak attacks still do anything.

STEVIL

So, we see a broad based consensus here that bows need to be buffed.

So here are some basic starting points for bow buffs that are obvious.
Now of course its likely not all of these would be needed and that some might need to be cut back a smidge maybe if testing showed them to be slightly overtuned.

i will stick with just passives for now.

LONGSHOT: Remove the range requirement so it works just as well for melee range as at long range.
ACCURACY: Also increase crit damage by 5% and 10% respectively.
RANGER: OK as is.
HAWKEYE: Also apply uptick to crit chance at 2% per tick as well.
HASTY RETREAT: Add in major evasion for the time period or possibly replace it with SPLIT ARROW the bow equivalent of forceful (2H line) turning single target into splashy AOE.

just a starting point for discussion... not anything i am wedded to.

SodanTok

STEVIL wrote: »

So, we see a broad based consensus here that bows need to be buffed.

So here are some basic starting points for bow buffs that are obvious.
Now of course its likely not all of these would be needed and that some might need to be cut back a smidge maybe if testing showed them to be slightly overtuned.

i will stick with just passives for now.

LONGSHOT: Remove the range requirement so it works just as well for melee range as at long range.
ACCURACY: Also increase crit damage by 5% and 10% respectively.
RANGER: OK as is.
HAWKEYE: Also apply uptick to crit chance at 2% per tick as well.
HASTY RETREAT: Add in major evasion for the time period or possibly replace it with SPLIT ARROW the bow equivalent of forceful (2H line) turning single target into splashy AOE.

just a starting point for discussion... not anything i am wedded to.

Speaking of long shot. That passive is currently the biggest joke. With the math changes and some hidden scale change in past it is basically 5% more damage from 20m range. At that range you are still too far in PVE content and your DPS is better by 1-2%. Bow is behind by 20-30%.

Bow needs weapon damage. That can be fixed easily and has huge part in all issues.

Medium armor character buffed by Major Brutality with nirn bow frontbar has 358 less weapon damage than the one with nirn 2H. Let that sink in.
And that is 2H, the weapon that is less popular in PVE than DW and lacks 12th piece.

Toc de Malsvi

Just straight up, max range the long shots passive gives 12%. You start at 1335 add 12% more and you are at 1495.

2H starts at 1571, bow needs maximum range to take advantage of a passive that still leaves them well behind 2H.

Solariken

What the who? Guys, @STEVIL has been hacked. :P

Bow needs very gentle and nuanced buffs to be sure. I've stated these elsewhere but here's my 2cents:

Long Shots - increases damage of all ranged abilities by 15% when greater than 9 meters from the target.

Hawk Eye - in addition to current effects, each stack should incrementally reduce the cast time of Snipe and the cost of Rapid Fire.

Scatter Shot range should be 28 meters.


That's it! Cheers!

DDuke

To be fair, there's a lot of potential with the new Asylum Bow when it comes to PvP.

I can't really get an accurate picture in the PTS, it's something that'll have to be tested on Live server - but there's definitely potential for a fun build based on my tests