Tanking Value/Second

Personofsecrets

I'm thinking of ways to gain the most value for my time while tanking.

Sustain becomes very bad when not playing to specifically sustain resources. I therefore have the following ideas.

1. Using a Rotation

Doing this will ensure that skills aren't used in an unnecessary will. Streamlining skill use will help preserve resources and ensure that buffs are up in a consistent way.

[Medium Attack] Pierce Armor
[Medium Attack] Heroic Slash
[Medium Attack] Igneous Shield [Bar Swap]

Essence Drain [Bar Swap]

2. Using Low Cost, But High Value Effects

The above rotation only requires 4 ability slots and that leaves quite a few open for free use.

Blood Altar and Guard both seem like good choices as they have "set it and forget it" type of effects. Without too much interference of the rotation these skills provide a long time period of value.

Defensive Stance and Structured Entropy may also be decent skills to fill in the bar.

3. Rare Use, But Impactful Effects

If we use the first 2 skills from part 2, then we still have 3 slots left to fill. Of those slots, 1 is on the front bar and 2 are on the back bar. These skills on all be somewhat niche in that they have opportunities of providing tons of value, but require a specific set up or circumstance to be useful within. That means that we won't be using these skills most of the time and they therefore won't interfere much with the basic rotation.

The two basic skills that I can think of adding under this criteria are Balance and the ranged taunt.

Balance is a good way to boost defense in times that some large attack may be about to arrive. It also can be used in conjunction with Igneous Shield to provide many small shields. For that reason, balance can stay on the front bar.

The ranged taunt is another skill that might deserve a spot on the back bar. There are enough instances were it is useful to round up an enemy that is trying to escape pierce armor range. Providing this extra flexibility in positioning is a powerful niche for a skill that doesn't have to be used all that often.

4. Flex

The final skill slot can be context dependent. Some places demands Extended Chains. During some fights, Mist Form is a really interesting skill. During some fights, the raid lead may demand Dark Talons or Circle of Protection.

This one is really up to you.

This concludes some of my basic thoughts about current tanking skill choices. Give me some more ideas in the comments

paulsimonps

Want to quickly note that medium attacks do not restore resources, so the medium weaving would simply just add a bit of damage, and it would be lower than light attacks or a fully charge heavy attack, so the worst of both world.

Gan Xing

I suppose it depends on your playstyle. Judging from reading this, it sounds like you use a Vampire DK.

While in general, there are basic rules for being a tank, i've seen Magicka shielding tanks as well as dps bow using stamina tanks (they have the bow on the back bar).

In another discussion, I brought up a potentially fantastic build based off of Magicka block tanking (utilizing the Syrabane's Grip set and frost staff). Based on the armor sets currently in game, I could potentially make a perma-blocking magicka tank. Granted, the Syrabane really only works against magicka abilities, I'm sure there are ways to min-max it so it is less vulnerable to stamina users

That said, undaunted abilities give a fantastic opportunity to diversify your skill build and become capable of tanking even the hard modes of Vet DLC dungeons and Trials. I spent most of my game time trying to be a stamina DPS, which doesn't fit my playstyle (only took me 2 years to figure that out). Since then, I've been playing around with potential builds and play styles.

Personofsecrets

Hello @paulsimonps ,

Thank you for writing.

I find the wind up attacks easier to perform in between abilities. My preference for them is for that reason, but maybe doing so is a bad habit and I would like to explore what the "technical best" thing to do might be.

I am wondering if tapping the left click button many times in between a skill could cause my rotation to be every so slightly faster. What do you think?

On the other side, having slightly charged medium attacks between every skill would make it ever so slightly easier to transition to a fully charged heavy attack if, in that instant, the resource regeneration from such an attack becomes valuable. Do you have any opinion about that idea?

Finally, do you know the time it takes for the different enchantment cool downs to take place? Also, do front and back bar enchantments have their own individual cool downs? This is some basic information that I don't know off the top of my head, but these numbers could help inform us about how to craft the "technical best' rotation.

Personofsecrets

Gan Xing wrote: »

I suppose it depends on your playstyle. Judging from reading this, it sounds like you use a Vampire DK.

While in general, there are basic rules for being a tank, i've seen Magicka shielding tanks as well as dps bow using stamina tanks (they have the bow on the back bar).

In another discussion, I brought up a potentially fantastic build based off of Magicka block tanking (utilizing the Syrabane's Grip set and frost staff). Based on the armor sets currently in game, I could potentially make a perma-blocking magicka tank. Granted, the Syrabane really only works against magicka abilities, I'm sure there are ways to min-max it so it is less vulnerable to stamina users

That said, undaunted abilities give a fantastic opportunity to diversify your skill build and become capable of tanking even the hard modes of Vet DLC dungeons and Trials. I spent most of my game time trying to be a stamina DPS, which doesn't fit my playstyle (only took me 2 years to figure that out). Since then, I've been playing around with potential builds and play styles.

There certainly is some room for tanks to try a two handed weapon on the back bar. My general thinking is that 5-5-2 gear setup cannot be beaten - that thinking guides me to not currently finding two-handers that interesting.

Nestor

Here is my main bar rotation and timers

1. Igneous Weapons (buff me and allies attack) 39.6 Seconds
2. Hardened Armor (buff my armor) 20+ seconds
3. Osidian Shield (buff my and allies armor) 7+ seconds
4. Pierce Armor (debuff boss armor) 12 seconds, reapply about every 9 seconds
5. Inner Fire or Unrelenting Grip for distance aggro or crowd control
6. Shifting Standard (I don't have Warhorn as of yet so I do some, DPS here)

I am still working out what is my back bar so that is a work in progress. But I have various crowd control skills on it, and admittedly I don't switch to the back bar all that often.

Anyway, I still need to get better at this, but as long as I pay attention to the buff timers, I can use all the sklls in my main bar rotation for the duration of a fight and not run out of resources to the point that I can't use a Tri-Pot to keep up my attribute pools. It is when I start to use my skills quicker that I get into trouble. My food buffed resource pools are 50K Health, 17K Stamina and 17K Magic. I see 52K to 54K health with group buffs flying around.

I have to remember as a Tank, I am not spamming skills like a DPS but applying them as needed. So I try to count a One-One Thousand in my head to help with the timings.

paulsimonps

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Hello @paulsimonps ,

Thank you for writing.

I find the wind up attacks easier to perform in between abilities. My preference for them is for that reason, but maybe doing so is a bad habit and I would like to explore what the "technical best" thing to do might be.

I am wondering if tapping the left click button many times in between a skill could cause my rotation to be every so slightly faster. What do you think?

On the other side, having slightly charged medium attacks between every skill would make it ever so slightly easier to transition to a fully charged heavy attack if, in that instant, the resource regeneration from such an attack becomes valuable. Do you have any opinion about that idea?

Finally, do you know the time it takes for the different enchantment cool downs to take place? Also, do front and back bar enchantments have their own individual cool downs? This is some basic information that I don't know off the top of my head, but these numbers could help inform us about how to craft the "technical best' rotation.

I would definitely say you should try and learn to do either Heavy or light.

With enchantments, each unique type of enchantment shares a cool down, so if you have the exact same one on both bars they share cooldown, damage glyphs have 4s and the other has 10s, I have seen it closer to 9.5s however. Never seen a written dev source with exact numbers. So anything that deals damage is 4s the rest ~10s. So basically there is no reason to have the same enchantment on multiple weapons or bars, unless you are a tank that uses both bars very actively and want high Crusher up time. Also this last update made it so that Weapon ability DoTs can not proc the enchantment of that weapon if you swap to another bar, previously your back bar enchantment could proc of Weapon ability DoTs even after bar swap.

Personofsecrets

@Gilliamtherogue , do you have the list of enchantment cool down times that you could please share with us?

Personofsecrets

@paulsimonps , could you please make a guide of the most efficient way to pull trash within Sanctum Ophidia. Your strategies in that dungeon always seems a step ahead of other groups so I would really like to learn from them.

Personofsecrets

Nestor wrote: »

Here is my main bar rotation and timers

1. Igneous Weapons (buff me and allies attack) 39.6 Seconds
2. Hardened Armor (buff my armor) 20+ seconds
3. Osidian Shield (buff my and allies armor) 7+ seconds
4. Pierce Armor (debuff boss armor) 12 seconds, reapply about every 9 seconds
5. Inner Fire or Unrelenting Grip for distance aggro or crowd control
6. Shifting Standard (I don't have Warhorn as of yet so I do some, DPS here)

I am still working out what is my back bar so that is a work in progress. But I have various crowd control skills on it, and admittedly I don't switch to the back bar all that often.

Anyway, I still need to get better at this, but as long as I pay attention to the buff timers, I can use all the sklls in my main bar rotation for the duration of a fight and not run out of resources to the point that I can't use a Tri-Pot to keep up my attribute pools. It is when I start to use my skills quicker that I get into trouble. My food buffed resource pools are 50K Health, 17K Stamina and 17K Magic. I see 52K to 54K health with group buffs flying around.

I have to remember as a Tank, I am not spamming skills like a DPS but applying them as needed. So I try to count a One-One Thousand in my head to help with the timings.

Pacing yourself is a good idea Nestor

paulsimonps

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@paulsimonps , could you please make a guide of the most efficient way to pull trash within Sanctum Ophidia. Your strategies in that dungeon always seems a step ahead of other groups so I would really like to learn from them.

Not sure, I mean if you are asking about specific trash pulls then I could try and describe it, best would be a video but I probably won't have time for that for a long time. Mostly its just all about finding the sweet spots to live of sight them all together in.

Personofsecrets

paulsimonps wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@paulsimonps , could you please make a guide of the most efficient way to pull trash within Sanctum Ophidia. Your strategies in that dungeon always seems a step ahead of other groups so I would really like to learn from them.

Not sure, I mean if you are asking about specific trash pulls then I could try and describe it, best would be a video but I probably won't have time for that for a long time. Mostly its just all about finding the sweet spots to live of sight them all together in.

If I make some Sanctum Maps with the enemy placement, then might you find the time to help me fill in tank positioning for each room?

Liofa

Having a rotation for certain bosses definitely works amazing . For me , I do this rotation on certain bosses .

Pierce Armor - Light Attack - Heroic Slash - Light Attack - Igneous Shield - Swap - Blockade of Storms - Light Attack - Engulfing Flames - Swap - Balance - Light Attack - Balance - Light Attack - Repeat from beginning

This is my rotation for stationary bosses and very simple to do . I am using Torugs and Ebon at the moment . I get 95%+ uptime on Crusher and 100% uptime on all buffs and debuffs with this rotation .

For certain bosses , I use one more skill on rotation and use Balance 3 times . For example , on Ghost Lady boss in AA , I use Scales as an extra skill before I swap bars . This might result in a small downtime on buffs and debuffs but I believe damage I do with Scales makes up for that . Another example , I use Energy Orbs from back bar before I swap to front on Assembly General fight . That fight is really easy to have a rotation , just need to block the Stomp and knockback and that's pretty much it .

About Engulfing Flames . As mDKs are non existant in end-game PvE , we lack the Engulfing Flames debuff . Most people think there isn't much Flame attack to buff but I think otherwise . Maw of Infernal is pretty much BiS for Magicka Sorcerers at the moment which does Flame damage . Stamina DKs use Flames of Oblivion and Standart of Might . Some Magicka Sorcerers still use Blockade of Fire and most Magicka DDs still use Shooting Star . All of these are Flame and very strong attacks .

My setup is 3 Torugs armor , 1h/s torugs , 2 ebon armor , 3 ebon jewelry , 2 blood spawn and a charged Lightning Staff with Shock enchant . Now that they changed how enchant proc (they don't proc unless you are n that bar) it is guaranteed to proc the Shock enchant on staff bar . Shock enchant has 20% chance to proc Concussion . Destro passive boost it to 40% . Charged boosts it to 88(?)% . That's almost a guaranteed proc on Concussion .

Just wanted to explain the reasoning behind my rotation . Before I finish my writing , I wanna say something . Tanking is not a role you can have a rotation all the time . All things I said only applies to the times where I can actually do those . I don't want to make people who just started the game to think tanks have to do rotations and stuff like that ^^

Gilliamtherogue

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue , do you have the list of enchantment cool down times that you could please share with us?

All damage type proc enchants have a 4 second internal cooldown. These are not shared within the same category, only shared if you run the same enchant. For example, if I run Dual Wield and have Poison on my main hand and Poison on my off hand, when either procs, both will go on cooldown. However if I ran a Poison main and Disease off, each would have an independent 4 second cooldown.

Augment enchants (things that alter or change stats) have a 10 second internal cooldown. This primarily refers to Berserker or Weakening (Increase or Decrease Weapon and Spell Damage) as well as Crusher (Reducing Spell and Physical Resistance) enchants. Again, these will share cooldowns if you double up on a singular enchant (2 Crusher enchants share the same cooldown vs 1 Crusher and 1 Weakening have separate cooldowns.)

Infused reduces the cooldown by 50% now, meaning in isolation proc enchants have a 2s ICD and augments have a 5s ICD.
Torug's is now 30%, meaning in isolation proc enchants have a 2.8s ICD and augments have a 7s ICD.
Torug's and Infused when combined are multiplicative, making it 65% cooldown reduction, meaning proc enchants have a 1.4s ICD and augments have a 3.5s ICD.

Personofsecrets

@Liofa , you are really making me think now.

I don't remember the exact time, but it seems like

Liofa wrote: »

Having a rotation for certain bosses definitely works amazing . For me , I do this rotation on certain bosses .

Pierce Armor - Light Attack - Heroic Slash - Light Attack - Igneous Shield - Swap - Blockade of Storms - Light Attack - Engulfing Flames - Swap - Balance - Light Attack - Balance - Light Attack - Repeat from beginning

This is my rotation for stationary bosses and very simple to do . I am using Torugs and Ebon at the moment . I get 95%+ uptime on Crusher and 100% uptime on all buffs and debuffs with this rotation .

For certain bosses , I use one more skill on rotation and use Balance 3 times . For example , on Ghost Lady boss in AA , I use Scales as an extra skill before I swap bars . This might result in a small downtime on buffs and debuffs but I believe damage I do with Scales makes up for that . Another example , I use Energy Orbs from back bar before I swap to front on Assembly General fight . That fight is really easy to have a rotation , just need to block the Stomp and knockback and that's pretty much it .

About Engulfing Flames . As mDKs are non existant in end-game PvE , we lack the Engulfing Flames debuff . Most people think there isn't much Flame attack to buff but I think otherwise . Maw of Infernal is pretty much BiS for Magicka Sorcerers at the moment which does Flame damage . Stamina DKs use Flames of Oblivion and Standart of Might . Some Magicka Sorcerers still use Blockade of Fire and most Magicka DDs still use Shooting Star . All of these are Flame and very strong attacks .

My setup is 3 Torugs armor , 1h/s torugs , 2 ebon armor , 3 ebon jewelry , 2 blood spawn and a charged Lightning Staff with Shock enchant . Now that they changed how enchant proc (they don't proc unless you are n that bar) it is guaranteed to proc the Shock enchant on staff bar . Shock enchant has 20% chance to proc Concussion . Destro passive boost it to 40% . Charged boosts it to 88(?)% . That's almost a guaranteed proc on Concussion .

Just wanted to explain the reasoning behind my rotation . Before I finish my writing , I wanna say something . Tanking is not a role you can have a rotation all the time . All things I said only applies to the times where I can actually do those . I don't want to make people who just started the game to think tanks have to do rotations and stuff like that ^^

Having at least a few others that think of tanking rotations lets some real fresh air into the room.

I remember, with multiple people, having to argue that a rotation was possible as a tank. Can you believe the nerve of someone to try to say that any tanking rotation ideas are outright impossible?

Anyhow, thank you, yet again, for helping my thinking about current tanking.

Do you think that you may drop the concussion strategy in the case that procing Alkosh becomes more practical?

Personofsecrets

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue , do you have the list of enchantment cool down times that you could please share with us?

All damage type proc enchants have a 4 second internal cooldown. These are not shared within the same category, only shared if you run the same enchant. For example, if I run Dual Wield and have Poison on my main hand and Poison on my off hand, when either procs, both will go on cooldown. However if I ran a Poison main and Disease off, each would have an independent 4 second cooldown.

Augment enchants (things that alter or change stats) have a 10 second internal cooldown. This primarily refers to Berserker or Weakening (Increase or Decrease Weapon and Spell Damage) as well as Crusher (Reducing Spell and Physical Resistance) enchants. Again, these will share cooldowns if you double up on a singular enchant (2 Crusher enchants share the same cooldown vs 1 Crusher and 1 Weakening have separate cooldowns.)

Infused reduces the cooldown by 50% now, meaning in isolation proc enchants have a 2s ICD and augments have a 5s ICD.
Torug's is now 30%, meaning in isolation proc enchants have a 2.8s ICD and augments have a 7s ICD.
Torug's and Infused when combined are multiplicative, making it 65% cooldown reduction, meaning proc enchants have a 1.4s ICD and augments have a 3.5s ICD.

@paulsimonps I think that Gilliams post will help us figure out about enchantments.

@Gilliamtherogue , thank you yet again for this valuable information. You are a real pillar of helpful information.

paulsimonps

Personofsecrets wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@paulsimonps , could you please make a guide of the most efficient way to pull trash within Sanctum Ophidia. Your strategies in that dungeon always seems a step ahead of other groups so I would really like to learn from them.

Not sure, I mean if you are asking about specific trash pulls then I could try and describe it, best would be a video but I probably won't have time for that for a long time. Mostly its just all about finding the sweet spots to live of sight them all together in.

If I make some Sanctum Maps with the enemy placement, then might you find the time to help me fill in tank positioning for each room?

I could try.

Liofa

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Liofa , you are really making me think now.

I don't remember the exact time, but it seems like

Liofa wrote: »

Having a rotation for certain bosses definitely works amazing . For me , I do this rotation on certain bosses .

Pierce Armor - Light Attack - Heroic Slash - Light Attack - Igneous Shield - Swap - Blockade of Storms - Light Attack - Engulfing Flames - Swap - Balance - Light Attack - Balance - Light Attack - Repeat from beginning

This is my rotation for stationary bosses and very simple to do . I am using Torugs and Ebon at the moment . I get 95%+ uptime on Crusher and 100% uptime on all buffs and debuffs with this rotation .

For certain bosses , I use one more skill on rotation and use Balance 3 times . For example , on Ghost Lady boss in AA , I use Scales as an extra skill before I swap bars . This might result in a small downtime on buffs and debuffs but I believe damage I do with Scales makes up for that . Another example , I use Energy Orbs from back bar before I swap to front on Assembly General fight . That fight is really easy to have a rotation , just need to block the Stomp and knockback and that's pretty much it .

About Engulfing Flames . As mDKs are non existant in end-game PvE , we lack the Engulfing Flames debuff . Most people think there isn't much Flame attack to buff but I think otherwise . Maw of Infernal is pretty much BiS for Magicka Sorcerers at the moment which does Flame damage . Stamina DKs use Flames of Oblivion and Standart of Might . Some Magicka Sorcerers still use Blockade of Fire and most Magicka DDs still use Shooting Star . All of these are Flame and very strong attacks .

My setup is 3 Torugs armor , 1h/s torugs , 2 ebon armor , 3 ebon jewelry , 2 blood spawn and a charged Lightning Staff with Shock enchant . Now that they changed how enchant proc (they don't proc unless you are n that bar) it is guaranteed to proc the Shock enchant on staff bar . Shock enchant has 20% chance to proc Concussion . Destro passive boost it to 40% . Charged boosts it to 88(?)% . That's almost a guaranteed proc on Concussion .

Just wanted to explain the reasoning behind my rotation . Before I finish my writing , I wanna say something . Tanking is not a role you can have a rotation all the time . All things I said only applies to the times where I can actually do those . I don't want to make people who just started the game to think tanks have to do rotations and stuff like that ^^

Having at least a few others that think of tanking rotations lets some real fresh air into the room.

I remember, with multiple people, having to argue that a rotation was possible as a tank. Can you believe the nerve of someone to try to say that any tanking rotation ideas are outright impossible?

Anyhow, thank you, yet again, for helping my thinking about current tanking.

Do you think that you may drop the concussion strategy in the case that procing Alkosh becomes more practical?

If Alkosh was reliable , I would use it without thinking twice . Last time I tried it , it was a Storm Atro fight . Pretty simple , stack and burn fight . All that fight , I ran around trying to catch synergies . I got only 3 . Not even kidding . Everytime I tried it after that , it disappointed me more and more .

About dropping Concussion if Alkosh becomes reliable , I probably wouldn't . Can use both anyways . Alkosh needs to be used by both tanks in order to get a decent uptime and even then it is not very reliable

paulsimonps

Liofa wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Liofa , you are really making me think now.

I don't remember the exact time, but it seems like

Liofa wrote: »

Having a rotation for certain bosses definitely works amazing . For me , I do this rotation on certain bosses .

Pierce Armor - Light Attack - Heroic Slash - Light Attack - Igneous Shield - Swap - Blockade of Storms - Light Attack - Engulfing Flames - Swap - Balance - Light Attack - Balance - Light Attack - Repeat from beginning

This is my rotation for stationary bosses and very simple to do . I am using Torugs and Ebon at the moment . I get 95%+ uptime on Crusher and 100% uptime on all buffs and debuffs with this rotation .

For certain bosses , I use one more skill on rotation and use Balance 3 times . For example , on Ghost Lady boss in AA , I use Scales as an extra skill before I swap bars . This might result in a small downtime on buffs and debuffs but I believe damage I do with Scales makes up for that . Another example , I use Energy Orbs from back bar before I swap to front on Assembly General fight . That fight is really easy to have a rotation , just need to block the Stomp and knockback and that's pretty much it .

About Engulfing Flames . As mDKs are non existant in end-game PvE , we lack the Engulfing Flames debuff . Most people think there isn't much Flame attack to buff but I think otherwise . Maw of Infernal is pretty much BiS for Magicka Sorcerers at the moment which does Flame damage . Stamina DKs use Flames of Oblivion and Standart of Might . Some Magicka Sorcerers still use Blockade of Fire and most Magicka DDs still use Shooting Star . All of these are Flame and very strong attacks .

My setup is 3 Torugs armor , 1h/s torugs , 2 ebon armor , 3 ebon jewelry , 2 blood spawn and a charged Lightning Staff with Shock enchant . Now that they changed how enchant proc (they don't proc unless you are n that bar) it is guaranteed to proc the Shock enchant on staff bar . Shock enchant has 20% chance to proc Concussion . Destro passive boost it to 40% . Charged boosts it to 88(?)% . That's almost a guaranteed proc on Concussion .

Just wanted to explain the reasoning behind my rotation . Before I finish my writing , I wanna say something . Tanking is not a role you can have a rotation all the time . All things I said only applies to the times where I can actually do those . I don't want to make people who just started the game to think tanks have to do rotations and stuff like that ^^

Having at least a few others that think of tanking rotations lets some real fresh air into the room.

I remember, with multiple people, having to argue that a rotation was possible as a tank. Can you believe the nerve of someone to try to say that any tanking rotation ideas are outright impossible?

Anyhow, thank you, yet again, for helping my thinking about current tanking.

Do you think that you may drop the concussion strategy in the case that procing Alkosh becomes more practical?

If Alkosh was reliable , I would use it without thinking twice . Last time I tried it , it was a Storm Atro fight . Pretty simple , stack and burn fight . All that fight , I ran around trying to catch synergies . I got only 3 . Not even kidding . Everytime I tried it after that , it disappointed me more and more .

About dropping Concussion if Alkosh becomes reliable , I probably wouldn't . Can use both anyways . Alkosh needs to be used by both tanks in order to get a decent uptime and even then it is not very reliable

yea, until we see a change to synergies reliability I won't be running alkosh, staying with Crusher+Torugs. It gives me an easier time and I can focus on other things. And its still strong, and oppose to Alkosh, reliable. As well it does have that one bonus into HP so at least that's something.

Personofsecrets

@ZOS_RichLambert

Is it clear from post #18 and #19 of this thread that despite how willing tanks are to use synergies due to the powerful Alkosh set, these same tanks find synergy based strategies as not reliable do to how poisoned the synergy mechanic is by how hard it is to find and use synergies?

Synergies are a pretty basic part of the game that you want to support. They make sense, but here you have several players, all completing the hardest end game content, and they all agree that the synergy mechanic is screwed up.

Maybe it is time you make synergies not be broken.

Thank you for reading.