Why Is Everything Intended To Be "Cool" or Otherwise In ESO Inherently Evil? Where Is The Good?

starkerealm

SirGabenOfSteamia wrote: »

Why oh why are you suggesting this?

There are games that offer more options than just kill 'em all. Off hand, the Deus Ex and Dishonored series come to mind as examples. What Looking Glass Studios called Immersive Sims. You have potentially violent situations, but can find alternative solutions. So far as that goes, the original Fallout games are a similar situation. You can often talk your way out of dangerous situations without having to fire a shot.

So, yeah, no, there are ways to handle that. I'm not really sure how well they'd work in an MMO, though.

mook-eb16_ESO

On philosophical point, I think the game trys to highlight that good/evil is not clear cut, others would say there is no good or evil only cause and effect. If there is good and evil it's only from your perspective. if someone views an evil act from their perspective, they have no way of knowing whether the result of this act will have a positive or negative outcome from their perspective. Being a pacifist doesn't make you a good person such persay and elevate you to saint like status. Not intervening could have a negative outcome from your perspective. In the end fight or don't fight theirs no difference, there's only change.

SirGabenOfSteamia

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

SirGabenOfSteamia wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

Can we morph in to Aedra (despite them sometimes blurring the line)? Maybe something divine in nature that hates evil? Or something else that doesn't involve death, the underworld, or creepiness? Make us look like something celestial, and angel-like for a change, Zen.

Give us abilities named something like: Incorruptible, Begone, Preservation, I Swear, Chant of the Oath, I'd rather die. And this class would be immune to being turned by anything. Yet these games fool our children in to believing that evil is the most powerful force on earth; and that's a lie.

The Fighter's Guild and Mages' Guilds are dedicated to fighting Daedra and ending the planemeld. They were founded for that sole reason. By joining either your character is pretty much devoting their selves to the same cause.

Aedra are like gods. To be able to morph into one would be insane. I'm unaware as to whether or not lesser Aedra are still classified as deities, but even if they are, to have an entire playable race with similarities to beings that had to literally escape from Mundus in order to preserve their power would be ridiculously lore-breaking.

This game is rated "M." If we're being honest, kids shouldn't even be playing it.

Regardless, ESO is a roleplaying game. You're meant to be whoever you want in it. Make an original character, you know. People are allowed to choose whichever alignment they want, whichever backstory they want. Make your own, who cares. To say that A GAME teaches kids that "evil is the most powerful thing on Earth" --- even though the game isn't even set on Earth--- is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

The entirety of the main plot is about banishing a Daedric Prince, which are pretty much supervillains, and his minions from Tamriel in order to stop the planemeld, which is the process of Molag Bal drawing the Mundus into his own realm and enslaving human and merkind. Where's the evil in that?

Even the Dark Brotherhood isn't inherently evil. The Dark Brotherhood tracks down and kills those who have wronged someone else in some way. And let it be said that one of those wrongs may have been murder or massacre, so where's the wrong in judgement? Don't we do that in real life? Have you ever heard of lawful execution?

Honestly, it's a game. Calm down.

The morph would be aesthetic just like everything else before it. Rated "M" or not, children still play the game, so your point? Should, could, would'a... "Regardless, ESO is a roleplaying game. You're meant to be whoever you want in it. Make an original character, you know. People are allowed to choose whichever alignment they want, whichever backstory they want." This is all a lie. You can't choose whatever alignment you want, nor can you be whoever you want to be.

"To say that A GAME teaches kids that "evil is the most powerful thing on Earth" --- even though the game isn't even set on Earth--- is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard." Really? Then you may need to get out more. Have you ever heard of the word "Symbolism"? We all do it. Look up "Role Play" which is exactly what MMOs are meant for. It's a simulation that is suppose to condition a person in to being detached from whatever they would not normally be able to do. It is also used in psychotherapy, which last I checked takes place on earth. Come to think of it games are on earth too. Ever been to Cosplay? Or at least seen it? Have you noticed that adults are influenced by fantasy as well? But you don't believe children are?

The truth is you made the most ridiculous statement you ever heard.

The difference between you and I is that I can actually read what I'm writing and realize that it makes sense.

Roleplay--- have you ever heard of original characters? Regardless of what you can do in the game, people are always making up backstories for who they play as. Just because you can't do something in-game doesn't mean people haven't made it Canon in the characters' past. Fiction is a big part of roleplay, especially in the world of fantasy RPGs. Your character can be whoever they want, and they can have whatever alignment they want, it's a personal ability that everyone who has this game has. There's a 'fiction and roleplay' area on the forums for a reason.

And as for the thing I was saying about kids... Kids aren't as mindless as some people like to think they are. They have their own thoughts, and can take whatever they want out of whatever they see. How many sane people who play a violent video game think "oh that's awesome I wish I can cut my best friend's head off"? None. None do. Just because a kid can play the evil side in a game does not mean that when they go out they'll keep absolutely everyone from having a happy life to get themselves ahead of them. People know the difference between right and wrong a little bit too much nowadays, especially kids. In most games, people know the good will win. There aren't many games at all that let the evil prevail. ESO is not one of those games. The good wins in ESO, so why would 'evil be the most powerful force on Earth?'

Did you google that? Duh dude, when you're playing a fantasy game of course you'll be playing as someone you're not normally able to. As I said before, it's you that makes the character, not the game. Whatever limitations the game gives you, your mind can surpass.

And cosplay is literally the exact same thing as roleplay... But with costumes. Thus, cosplay? There's a reason why cosplay is a thing. It's because the people cosplaying know that they're actually not that character. Just because they dress up and act like that character for the time being does not mean that they believe that said characters' actions are justified. It's simply because they're a likeable character. You know Negan from TWD? He's an absolute ass. But his character is genius. He's comedic, he an evil mastermind, he can see through people's disguises. People love Negan. Does that mean that

people are gonna go around smashing other people's heads into a red mush with a baseball bat?

no, it absolutely doesn't. C'mon dude, think a little.

newtinmpls

That would require a lot of thoughtful play, and some modifications to how EP is won.

Likely too demanding a play-style for most

starkerealm

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

As multiple people have adjust stated, there is no true good and evil in the elder scrolls lore. Even alduin from skyrim isn't truly bad but is just a universe restart button. Or the daedra are simply beings of change. In short the whole elderscrolls lore seems to be a social commentary on nothing being truly black and white.
As another example, lorkan is simultaneously the bad guy in the eyes of mer and the good guy in the eyes of men.

That's not entirely true. There is good and evil in TES, but, there's no external confirmation provided. No one steps in and confirms what you already know. You're left to evaluate the morality of your actions on your own.

You can do truly evil things in TES, but no authoritative voice will step in and say, "okay, you get a red team point for that."

By the same measure, there are cosmic forces in TES that do evil things. There are cosmic forces that do good. These don't always align, and even individual beings can switch between being a catalyst for good, and being monstrous depending on what's happening. It's not really moral relativity so much as their motives are complex.

Within that context, it's easy to abdicate and say, "well, stuff is morally gray," but that's not really true. The morality involved can be assessed based on the actions taken. It's just that no one will come in, tap you on the shoulder, and remind you that you just did an evil thing.

Well the very concept of morality is subjective but even Molag bal is simply doing what is in his nature. Would you fault a lion for killing a zebra or a snake from killing a bird. They do not see themselves as evil, only doing what they are supposed to do which is cause change.

That's not quite right. Predators hunt prey because they need to or they will die. I mean, I can blame the snake, because holy ****, arboreal snakes are ***damn scary and aggressive, but in general, if a predator refused to hunt, it would die. So that's a different moral question. Generally speaking, yeah, that's fine. I understand the people who say they won't touch meat, but at the end, humans are omnivorous, we need to get protein from somewhere, and animal products are a ready source of that, but still.

What Molag Bal is doing is nothing like that. When someone is deciding to impose their will on others, by force, that's usually evil. There's some possible edge cases here, but, normally, even in the context of him being a god/daedra/whatever, I'd say, yes, what Molag Bal is doing is evil.

Except, with Sheogorath, we've already seen heavy hints that the Daedric Princes are (at least partially) bound to the aspects they represent. So, Molag Bal is the god of Domination and Brutality, meaning it's not just that's his nature, it's distinctly possible that he must act in accordance with that title.

Without being able to judge how much agency he really has within how he expresses that, it's pretty hard to give a concrete, "yeah, he's evil," or, "no, really, he's just misunderstood." I'd lean towards the evil end of the spectrum, because of how much zeal he brings to his role, but in fairness to you it isn't really clear cut, even if the predator/prey analogy isn't really on point.

ADarklore

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The main story revolves around you saving Nirn from a Satan like Demon/Daedra that is trying to steal all the souls of mortals while simultaneously dragging Tamriel into his Hell.

Im not sure you are playing the same game if you cant see that the vast majority of content is biased towards Good.

It's more like "you have to be a real strong badass if you truly want to serve the Good". But as long as you serve the Good, you'll be forgiven everything... this is sooooo.... american ?

Really? I suggest you look into some world-wide religions and see how one can be forgiven everything as long as one repents in the end. So it isn't just an 'American' thing.

Sheezabeast

Within the realm of ESO lore, I feel like its more evil than good to ignore the plights that you are intended to aide in, the idea of a complete pacifist that does not help anyone but themselves is not only playing with blinders, its also just not logical in the ESO world.

SirGabenOfSteamia

Also I no longer want to argue. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. We have different ones, and I don't think we're gonna get anywhere by doing this.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

Technically you're not killing anything as all enemies will be resurrected for other players to "kill" them.

SSlarg

as Mr. Beefy says;

"Release the Evil"

anitajoneb17_ESO

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

SirGabenOfSteamia wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

Can we morph in to Aedra (despite them sometimes blurring the line)? Maybe something divine in nature that hates evil? Or something else that doesn't involve death, the underworld, or creepiness? Make us look like something celestial, and angel-like for a change, Zen.

Give us abilities named something like: Incorruptible, Begone, Preservation, I Swear, Chant of the Oath, I'd rather die. And this class would be immune to being turned by anything. Yet these games fool our children in to believing that evil is the most powerful force on earth; and that's a lie.

The Fighter's Guild and Mages' Guilds are dedicated to fighting Daedra and ending the planemeld. They were founded for that sole reason. By joining either your character is pretty much devoting their selves to the same cause.

Aedra are like gods. To be able to morph into one would be insane. I'm unaware as to whether or not lesser Aedra are still classified as deities, but even if they are, to have an entire playable race with similarities to beings that had to literally escape from Mundus in order to preserve their power would be ridiculously lore-breaking.

This game is rated "M." If we're being honest, kids shouldn't even be playing it.

Regardless, ESO is a roleplaying game. You're meant to be whoever you want in it. Make an original character, you know. People are allowed to choose whichever alignment they want, whichever backstory they want. Make your own, who cares. To say that A GAME teaches kids that "evil is the most powerful thing on Earth" --- even though the game isn't even set on Earth--- is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

The entirety of the main plot is about banishing a Daedric Prince, which are pretty much supervillains, and his minions from Tamriel in order to stop the planemeld, which is the process of Molag Bal drawing the Mundus into his own realm and enslaving human and merkind. Where's the evil in that?

Even the Dark Brotherhood isn't inherently evil. The Dark Brotherhood tracks down and kills those who have wronged someone else in some way. And let it be said that one of those wrongs may have been murder or massacre, so where's the wrong in judgement? Don't we do that in real life? Have you ever heard of lawful execution?

Honestly, it's a game. Calm down.

The truth is you made the most ridiculous statement you ever heard.

^Quoted for truth^.

Jeremy

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

More and more, I've been seeing clearer this shrouded pattern of evil in the game. We have yet to be able to play as or morph in to something that is purely good. I would love to see, for once, a class created that does not kill under any circumstances but can only incapacitate, instill fear, evade and defend itself very well by other means from being killed too.

Maybe the class can be motivated by a character that has taken an oath to preserve life. The passive character's focus would be to weaken the threatening creature to the point of making it almost harmless. And every team member that gets resurrected by the passive-class player strengthens his resolve making his abilities more potent.

Can we morph in to Aedra (despite them sometimes blurring the line)? Maybe something divine in nature that hates evil? Or something else that doesn't involve death, the underworld, or creepiness? Make us look like something celestial, and angel-like for a change, Zen.

Give us abilities named something like: Incorruptible, Begone, Preservation, I Swear, Chant of the Oath, I'd rather die. And this class would be immune to being turned by anything. Yet these games fool our children in to believing that evil is the most powerful force on earth; and that's a lie.

The point is: It's about time someone somewhere comes up with a way to play a game that doesn't involve killing everything in sight. It's really getting old. Let us finally play as something truly good in this lifetime. Thanks for reading.

I've read over your comments in this thread and it seems to me that your commentary is laced with a philosophical agenda of promoting non-violence and then trying to equate that with somehow being good.

It baffles me why you would believe killing murderous demons trying to take over your planet while role playing on a video game is somehow evil simply because you answer violence with violence. Sometimes you must kill to survive. And doing so does not make someone evil. Neither in real life nor or on a video game.

All that being said: a pacifist class might be an interesting option to have on the game depending on how it was designed. But your claims that such a class would be morally superior to those who are going about killing monsters and demons that are trying to eat them is absurd and your comments are entirely too preachy, especially given this context.

zaria

max_only wrote: »

It's possible. It's been done before.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/4ib0bw/introducing_esos_first_nokill_vet/

Ironically the thief guild would be perfect for leveling here. The faction quest require killing, but the daily and the recurring does not. (not sure if you can get heists without killing any)
Downside is that the TG is criminals
They simply don't want to kill since it increase guard attention and bounty, its also not nice killing civilians but that is an bonus.

anitajoneb17_ESO

ADarklore wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The main story revolves around you saving Nirn from a Satan like Demon/Daedra that is trying to steal all the souls of mortals while simultaneously dragging Tamriel into his Hell.

Im not sure you are playing the same game if you cant see that the vast majority of content is biased towards Good.

It's more like "you have to be a real strong badass if you truly want to serve the Good". But as long as you serve the Good, you'll be forgiven everything... this is sooooo.... american ?

Really? I suggest you look into some world-wide religions and see how one can be forgiven everything as long as one repents in the end. So it isn't just an 'American' thing.

Forgiven as long as you repent... and forgiven as long as you win for the "good" side ... aren't the same thing.
And really, I don't want this interesting thread to be closed for something like "real world facts" being brought in. Don't take it the wrong way... please... maybe I should say "that's very western-capitalistic"... but yeah in my opinion it's very american. I might be wrong, exaggerating or simplifying too. But it took me reading the witcher's novels (and incidentally playing the Witcher's games) to realize how much our thinking is influenced by US standards, Disney standards, and in general, the movie industry, for which everything, and I mean *everything* is OK as long as there's a happy ending.

Closer to topic, the TES series originally ambitioned to picture a universe where things wouldn't be categorized as "good/bad" - they failed miserably in the implementation, worse and worse with each game. But now with ESO, that part is even non-existent. Not sure it would have been doable in a combat-based MMO anyway, but I still regret that they gave up on this. Probably forever.

Korah_Eaglecry

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The main story revolves around you saving Nirn from a Satan like Demon/Daedra that is trying to steal all the souls of mortals while simultaneously dragging Tamriel into his Hell.

Im not sure you are playing the same game if you cant see that the vast majority of content is biased towards Good.

It's more like "you have to be a real strong badass if you truly want to serve the Good". But as long as you serve the Good, you'll be forgiven everything... this is sooooo.... american ?

Thats far from an american mentality. And Im not even sure how you would connect those dots as much of American beliefs are not unique to American culture or has origins in American culture but from the many cultures that have shaped and influenced American culture. But sure, lets do some American hating cause thats exactly what this discussion is missing.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Thats far from an american mentality. And Im not even sure how you would connect those dots as much of American beliefs are not unique to American culture or has origins in American culture but from the many cultures that have shaped and influenced American culture. But sure, lets do some American hating cause thats exactly what this discussion is missing.

Not sure where you've read anything hateful.

SydneyGrey

You can't be 100% evil in this game, either. Really, you probably could play your character as 100% good, but you'd miss a lot of content. If you tried to play as 100% evil, you'd miss out on MOST of the content. LOL.

Kahina

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

More and more, I've been seeing clearer this shrouded pattern of evil in the game. We have yet to be able to play as or morph in to something that is purely good. I would love to see, for once, a class created that does not kill under any circumstances but can only incapacitate, instill fear, evade and defend itself very well by other means from being killed too.

This has been the bane of many Elder Scrolls Not-Online players since at least the days of ESIII Morrowind. How to play an intrinsically good player. One who would rather sacrifice self than harm another.

There, mods allowed us to get around it so a degree. I'm not sure it has a place here, as the number of interested individuals is limited.

Kahina

SydneyGrey wrote: »

You can't be 100% evil in this game, either. Really, you probably could play your character as 100% good, but you'd miss a lot of content. If you tried to play as 100% evil, you'd miss out on MOST of the content. LOL.

This is not entirely accurate.

There is such a thing as necessary evil. You can be a good player that accepts evil actions if the situation calls for it. Indeed. It's often the case that the true nature of events and outcomes are not known until it is too late. Such consequence is easy to engage in roleplay.

It is however near impossible, to play an evil character, who refuses to harm/kill/do wrong, by another.

STEVIL

Playing along that the OP wants an answer as opposed wants a soapbox saddle for their high horse...
The answer as to why is that the lore and background of the Elder Scrolls supports the moral gray of the game and not the particular morphing flavors you claim to seek.

I have seen stories where fighting against the evil fails and the answer is just getting yourself closer to the good and while to some they may be chicken soup for the soul to others the more traditional heroes journey is more interesting.

But for your eggs analogy, what you seem to be asking here is for a place called Eggs-R-Us to have a non-Eggs menu alternative for every dish. Iirc you referenced non-killing options across all the content, or was I mistaken?

Right now there are parts of ESO, some quests and some activities where killing is not the goal or not helpful for the quest... So you can have your bacon now and again, just not an egg free variant of every quest.

idk

How can anyone really take this thread serious. The OP has been around since 2013 and just now gained some sort of conscience? Doubt it.

Ratzkifal

So many replies...

Well if you don't want to kill anything, how about you play a templar and only use restoring light skills. None of those harm. Problem solved.

Kram8ion

Get yourself a house fill it with stuff and read all books no need to leave the safety of your house

Blacksmoke

Maybe pong is more your game huh? Or is there too much violence in that as well?

Kiralyn2000

Eh, I've never really understood the whole "My character can't be 'good' if he has to kill anything" viewpoint. At least in Heroic Fantasy games/novels/etc. Slaying evil is part of 'doing good'. It's part of the genre.

This doesn't mean that a game can't give you non-lethal options for Defeating Evil™, of course. But just because you killed that rampaging demon/troll/bandit, doesn't make you not good.


(but yeah - it's easier to have all those options in a single player game. Building an MMO that way would be tough, unless you go the cheesy route and just declare that combat is non-lethal by default and all those mobs scattered across the countryside are just "knocked out". Or like City of Heroes did it, "oh, they're all teleported to the prison! that gang member you immolated in hellfire and then impaled on exploding rock spikes? he's perfectly fine in the prison. Honest!" )

Berret

This thread just made me miss all the Passive Professions/Classes that Star Wars Galaxy had.

LadyNalcarya

Well, you cant kill daedra for example, you can just temporary banish them. Theyre 100% immortal and just keep respawning in Oblvion.
And speaking of "good" and "evil". Is it good to let the demons destroy the city? Is it good to let the wolves steal shepherds last sheeps? Or lets discuss the classic example: a starved tiger attacked a child. Lets say someone saved the child and killed the tiger. Of course, its good for the child, but its bad for the tiger and its cubs (who will starve to death now that their mother is dead). Often theres no pure good and pure evil, it all depends on your point of view.
I mean... I can understand that you might want to avoid killing people, but banishing demons isnt an "evil" thing. and even more so, not banishing them wont end well. Lets also not forget that people killed by those demons (daedra who serve Molag Bal) dont go to heaven or whatever, their souls are being captured and tortured for eternity. So yeah, I wouldnt say that pacifistic approach would work in this situation.

idk

OP should not play Pac Man. The little yellow head eats up Blinky, Pinky, Inky and Clyde. Such horrors.

Again, Seriously doubt OP is doing anything other than jesting. No way someone could be around this game over 3 years and just now have this issue. LOL

mildlylucid

Time to add my two cents to this discussion.

If a fight occurs then chances are someone will get hurt. If this fight involves point objects and fireballs then that hurt is definitely heading in the direction of death. So the idea of when an enemy runs out of hp that the enemy gets imprisoned, or just KOed pokemon style, understates the danger of a fight. If the example being set to kids is your concern then this would have the opposite effect as it shows violence without meaningful consequences such as death.
If your aim is to avoid violence all together then the only route (that can be considered "good") is speech. Being able to talk to someone into submission seems like the kind of gameplay you could be after. However, with the current level of technology, this is equivalent to adding an instawin button, which makes for very boring gameplay.

starkerealm

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

OP should not play Pac Man. The little yellow head eats up Blinky, Pinky, Inky and Clyde. Such horrors.

Again, Seriously doubt OP is doing anything other than jesting. No way someone could be around this game over 3 years and just now have this issue. LOL

Nah, PacMan is just the story of one man's struggle with PTSD from 'Nam and their resulting drug addiction.