Why Is Everything Intended To Be "Cool" or Otherwise In ESO Inherently Evil? Where Is The Good?

Ethromelb14_ESO

More and more, I've been seeing clearer this shrouded pattern of evil in the game. We have yet to be able to play as or morph in to something that is purely good. I would love to see, for once, a class created that does not kill under any circumstances but can only incapacitate, instill fear, evade and defend itself very well by other means from being killed too.

Maybe the class can be motivated by a character that has taken an oath to preserve life. The passive character's focus would be to weaken the threatening creature to the point of making it almost harmless. And every team member that gets resurrected by the passive-class player strengthens his resolve making his abilities more potent.

Can we morph in to Aedra (despite them sometimes blurring the line)? Maybe something divine in nature that hates evil? Or something else that doesn't involve death, the underworld, or creepiness? Make us look like something celestial, and angel-like for a change, Zen.

Give us abilities named something like: Incorruptible, Begone, Preservation, I Swear, Chant of the Oath, I'd rather die. And this class would be immune to being turned by anything. Yet these games fool our children in to believing that evil is the most powerful force on earth; and that's a lie.

The point is: It's about time someone somewhere comes up with a way to play a game that doesn't involve killing everything in sight. It's really getting old. Let us finally play as something truly good in this lifetime. Thanks for reading.

Sigtric

There are games where you can play as a passive. TES titles are not these games.

Korah_Eaglecry

The main story revolves around you saving Nirn from a Satan like Demon/Daedra that is trying to steal all the souls of mortals while simultaneously dragging Tamriel into his Hell.

Im not sure you are playing the same game if you cant see that the vast majority of content is biased towards Good. The game leans so far towards Good that they had to add multiple updates (Justice System/Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood) to actually add nuance and truely evil options to the game.

emilyhyoyeon

Sigtric wrote: »

There are games where you can play as a passive. TES titles are not these games.

technically most other TES games the player CAN play passively in the ways described in the OP. I'm not sure how well it'd work in ESO though but I thought I'd at least point out that TES games in general do support all types of characters/roleplay

ziggy29

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The main story revolves around you saving Nirn from a Satan like Demon/Daedra that is trying to steal all the souls of mortals while simultaneously dragging Tamriel into his Hell.

Im not sure you are playing the same game if you cant see that the vast majority of content is biased towards Good.

Agreed. I guess it's more a question of alignment (i.e. lawful good as opposed to, say, chaotic good). I suppose a pacifistic character would be more or less lawful good taken to its logical extreme. That said I don't know how one can credibly fit such a trait into this genre of RPG, since killing evil in the name of good has long been a staple of it.

subtlezeroub17_ESO

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

There are games where you can play as a passive. TES titles are not these games.

technically most other TES games the player CAN play passively in the ways described in the OP. I'm not sure how well it'd work in ESO though but I thought I'd at least point out that TES games in general do support all types of characters/roleplay

This is first and foremost a MMORPG, there are play styles that do not work in mmos. Passive playstyles are one of them.

Sigtric

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

There are games where you can play as a passive. TES titles are not these games.

technically most other TES games the player CAN play passively in the ways described in the OP. I'm not sure how well it'd work in ESO though but I thought I'd at least point out that TES games in general do support all types of characters/roleplay

If all you're doing is exploring, sure. If you wanted to complete the stories in the games? I don't see how that would be possible.

Ethromelb14_ESO

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

There are games where you can play as a passive. TES titles are not these games.

technically most other TES games the player CAN play passively in the ways described in the OP. I'm not sure how well it'd work in ESO though but I thought I'd at least point out that TES games in general do support all types of characters/roleplay

I see what you're getting at, but the truth is - it doesn't. Most if not all dungeons involve killing the boss/target in order to have successfully cleared the area. They do not offer the option of imprisonment. It's kill or be killed.

Betsararie

People don't want to do that. Nobody wants to play a game where you're a monk or something and just sit in church all day

Ethromelb14_ESO

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The main story revolves around you saving Nirn from a Satan like Demon/Daedra that is trying to steal all the souls of mortals while simultaneously dragging Tamriel into his Hell.

Im not sure you are playing the same game if you cant see that the vast majority of content is biased towards Good. The game leans so far towards Good that they had to add multiple updates (Justice System/Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood) to actually add nuance and truely evil options to the game.

You're going to have to elaborate on this "good" you've been seeing. Because I think you overlooked the part that I mentioned not killing as an option towards success. That does not exist all across the board as a constant choice in games/this game.

Korah_Eaglecry

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

There are games where you can play as a passive. TES titles are not these games.

technically most other TES games the player CAN play passively in the ways described in the OP. I'm not sure how well it'd work in ESO though but I thought I'd at least point out that TES games in general do support all types of characters/roleplay

This is first and foremost a MMORPG, there are play styles that do not work in mmos. Passive playstyles are one of them.

Actually it wasnt too long ago that ZOS acknowledged a player that had fully leveled their character up to VR16 (CP160) through passive play. Its possible, just time consuming and not at all interesting.

Ethromelb14_ESO

Sigtric wrote: »

There are games where you can play as a passive. TES titles are not these games.

Exactly, there isn't one thing they've made that leans towards true good.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Originally the lore is planned to be a setup where everything is grey, nor evil nor good, the daedra aren't supposed to be the bad guys and the aedra aren't supposed to be the good guys, and it was quite subtle at the beginning.
But the games are made by an american company, and american culture is pretty straightforward at scaling stuff on a 2-dimensional scale between good and bad.
Success hasn't helped either - the TES franchise has become a mass media, had to go mainstream, etc... and ESO is even more affected by the disney-isation of things.
The result is the total failure we see here...

You could give a go at The Witcher series. Sure, it's pretty violent too, but the lore and environment give a very fresh and more adult and complex perspective on said violence. It's more about the difficulty and risks of choosing sides than about being good or evil. Also, it's a polish story adapted by a polish studio, with a completely different cultural approach.

anitajoneb17_ESO

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

There are games where you can play as a passive. TES titles are not these games.

technically most other TES games the player CAN play passively in the ways described in the OP. I'm not sure how well it'd work in ESO though but I thought I'd at least point out that TES games in general do support all types of characters/roleplay

Yes and no. In Skyrim, if you choose to be part of the Dark Brotherhood, you enjoy hours upon hours of gameplay with nicely written quests. If you don't, the whole thing is dealt with and over in ten minutes. Same goes for all other factions. It's more a "play the bad guy or don't play at all" kind of choice.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The main story revolves around you saving Nirn from a Satan like Demon/Daedra that is trying to steal all the souls of mortals while simultaneously dragging Tamriel into his Hell.

Im not sure you are playing the same game if you cant see that the vast majority of content is biased towards Good.

It's more like "you have to be a real strong badass if you truly want to serve the Good". But as long as you serve the Good, you'll be forgiven everything... this is sooooo.... american ?

anitajoneb17_ESO

With all I've said, I must however point out that darkness and creepiness and all this stuff are and always will be a part of medieval fantasy. It's a genre thing.

Vipstaakki

Such a character does exist. All you have to do is to reach the max CP but only ever gain XP by crafting.

Ethromelb14_ESO

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

There are games where you can play as a passive. TES titles are not these games.

technically most other TES games the player CAN play passively in the ways described in the OP. I'm not sure how well it'd work in ESO though but I thought I'd at least point out that TES games in general do support all types of characters/roleplay

This is first and foremost a MMORPG, there are play styles that do not work in mmos. Passive playstyles are one of them.

Actually it wasnt too long ago that ZOS acknowledged a player that had fully leveled their character up to VR16 (CP160) through passive play. Its possible, just time consuming and not at all interesting.

True, but they never told us how she did it, and having someone else do the killing for you is just as guilty ... by association. Nevertheless I get your point. It is pain-stakingly possible. The point is it's hard to do and extremely rare because the game is tailored towards that option of play-style.

emilyhyoyeon

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

There are games where you can play as a passive. TES titles are not these games.

technically most other TES games the player CAN play passively in the ways described in the OP. I'm not sure how well it'd work in ESO though but I thought I'd at least point out that TES games in general do support all types of characters/roleplay

I see what you're getting at, but the truth is - it doesn't. Most if not all dungeons involve killing the boss/target in order to have successfully cleared the area. They do not offer the option of imprisonment. It's kill or be killed.

oh yeah true I see what you're saying. At least in the single player games, I usually don't play good/passive/nonkilling characters. When I do, they either never do certain quests/questlines or I pretend they're doing something else.

Anyway, I think if ESO were to add a "passive class" that wouldn't need to drastically change how combat works, only the enemy death animations would need to change for the new class's abilities.

for ex. weakening the enemies to the point of harmlessness: instead of the mobs falling to the ground (dead) they would run meekly away from the player and disappear when their health bars are depleted

another ex. imprisoning the mobs/bosses: each mob would be surrounded by a cage and disappear when his health bar is depleted

is this kind of the thing you're getting at? - more or less just changing the defeat animation depending on the player's class/abilities used?

emilyhyoyeon

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

There are games where you can play as a passive. TES titles are not these games.

technically most other TES games the player CAN play passively in the ways described in the OP. I'm not sure how well it'd work in ESO though but I thought I'd at least point out that TES games in general do support all types of characters/roleplay

Yes and no. In Skyrim, if you choose to be part of the Dark Brotherhood, you enjoy hours upon hours of gameplay with nicely written quests. If you don't, the whole thing is dealt with and over in ten minutes. Same goes for all other factions. It's more a "play the bad guy or don't play at all" kind of choice.

yeah, I was thinking more of just roleplay than "officially" completing content. The single player devs should add more "official" content that doesn't involve killing or have killing as the only solution. that would be its own huge discussion

FoolishHuman

Elderscrolls is not really a good universe for black/white morality. Aedra are not good btw (in fact I'd say they are just neutral, they are after all basically just the laws of nature) and daedra not inherently evil. And you shouldn't bring earth morality into this, that's even more grey area than the game universe's one.
The fact that the game revolves around killing is just part of the genre, I don't think it's possible to get around that without huge changes to the core game. Most quests, delves and dungeons would not be solvable and leveling would take ages with just exploration and crafting quests. I get the feeling what you are looking for is an entirely different game.

Ethromelb14_ESO

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

There are games where you can play as a passive. TES titles are not these games.

technically most other TES games the player CAN play passively in the ways described in the OP. I'm not sure how well it'd work in ESO though but I thought I'd at least point out that TES games in general do support all types of characters/roleplay

This is first and foremost a MMORPG, there are play styles that do not work in mmos. Passive playstyles are one of them.

That's due to the mentality of the players, not due to the lack of the effectiveness of the play-style. Most players are blood-hungry and need to see it sprayed everywhere. If not that then something needs to be disintegrated or burned.

ThePrinceOfBargains

The problem with this is that pacifists don't fight. They become doctors. Saying you're only going to "incapacitate" a group of armed enemies that are trying to kill you is complete nonsense. This isn't Batman and you're not a comic book character. And this is one of few things that are not left up to player decision or interpretation. Our characters are killers and have no problem killing. Why they have no problem killing is up to the player to decide.

Now, I wouldn't mind seeing, say, new daily missions where you act as a vigilante and use tools provided by the mission to arrest weakened enemies as a requirement from the quest provider. But revolving your entire gameplay experience around such a concept doesn't work for these games.

Ethromelb14_ESO

It's this brain-washing in to killing everything that has lead many in to ignoring well-written story-lines in eagerness of speedily getting to the next fight. And then most wonder why they're getting bored? It's because of the monotony and desensitizing they've been bombarded by. It's why the sight of blood doesn't make us squeamish anymore, and why special effects in action movies rarely impress us anymore. We are desensitized. So of course playing as a pacifist would be boring to most ignoring the fact that such a play-style would require the greatest strength of character.

Ethromelb14_ESO

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

There are games where you can play as a passive. TES titles are not these games.

technically most other TES games the player CAN play passively in the ways described in the OP. I'm not sure how well it'd work in ESO though but I thought I'd at least point out that TES games in general do support all types of characters/roleplay

I see what you're getting at, but the truth is - it doesn't. Most if not all dungeons involve killing the boss/target in order to have successfully cleared the area. They do not offer the option of imprisonment. It's kill or be killed.

oh yeah true I see what you're saying. At least in the single player games, I usually don't play good/passive/nonkilling characters. When I do, they either never do certain quests/questlines or I pretend they're doing something else.

Anyway, I think if ESO were to add a "passive class" that wouldn't need to drastically change how combat works, only the enemy death animations would need to change for the new class's abilities.

for ex. weakening the enemies to the point of harmlessness: instead of the mobs falling to the ground (dead) they would run meekly away from the player and disappear when their health bars are depleted

another ex. imprisoning the mobs/bosses: each mob would be surrounded by a cage and disappear when his health bar is depleted

is this kind of the thing you're getting at? - more or less just changing the defeat animation depending on the player's class/abilities used?

Exactly. That's all I'm saying.

FoolishHuman

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

It's this brain-washing in to killing everything that has lead many in to ignoring well-written story-lines in eagerness of speedily getting to the next fight. And then most wonder why they're getting bored? It's because of the monotony and desensitizing they've been bombarded by. It's why the sight of blood doesn't make us squeamish anymore, and why special effects in action movies rarely impress us anymore. We are desensitized. So of course playing as a pacifist would be boring to most ignoring the fact that such a play-style would require the greatest strength of character.

Then why are there tons of sports, racing, puzzle and simulation games? The Sims is one of the most successful franchises for video games, sports games make up the most profit for companies like EA. Puzzle games on mobile devices make millions. This genre of fantasy games is just a niche like everything else. And in this genre you are a knight in shining armor that slays monsters. As I said, you are just looking at the wrong place if that's not your kind of thing.

Ethromelb14_ESO

Vipstaakki wrote: »

Such a character does exist. All you have to do is to reach the max CP but only ever gain XP by crafting.

True and maybe, but there wouldn't be much adventuring involved, and it doesn't involve the use of powers.

SHADOW2KK

But........I like killing things....

Ethromelb14_ESO

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

With all I've said, I must however point out that darkness and creepiness and all this stuff are and always will be a part of medieval fantasy. It's a genre thing.

I can agree with you there ... I'm just wondering if it has to be? Innovation has grown stale all for the sake of familiarity. Creation isn't suppose to be the brother to stagnation. It's what leads to those days we as players just stare at our stockpile of games and still wonder what we should play, because we're really bored, always looking for something fresh to give us that next fix. Not to digress, but you're right evil does permeate throughout this genre, and maybe it's time to change something and make being good cool.

Tryxus

TheMaster wrote: »

The problem with this is that pacifists don't fight. They become doctors. Saying you're only going to "incapacitate" a group of armed enemies that are trying to kill you is complete nonsense. This isn't Batman and you're not a comic book character. And this is one of few things that are not left up to player decision or interpretation. Our characters are killers and have no problem killing. Why they have no problem killing is up to the player to decide.

Now, I wouldn't mind seeing, say, new daily missions where you act as a vigilante and use tools provided by the mission to arrest weakened enemies as a requirement from the quest provider. But revolving your entire gameplay experience around such a concept doesn't work for these games.

I once made a pacifist (kinda ) in Skyrim: my pure Khajiit Thief Mojar-do. He only had perks in the 6 thief skills (Sneak, Light Armor, Pickpocket, Lockpicking, Speech and Alchemy)

Going through Skyrim was a matter of sneaking through places, talking my way out of fights, popping potions and stealing stuff that could come in handy... all the while protecting the holds from the dragons. Not really a "good" guy, but a pacifist nonetheless (This one hates getting his paws bloody)

Ethromelb14_ESO

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Elderscrolls is not really a good universe for black/white morality. Aedra are not good btw (in fact I'd say they are just neutral, they are after all basically just the laws of nature) and daedra not inherently evil. And you shouldn't bring earth morality into this, that's even more grey area than the game universe's one.
The fact that the game revolves around killing is just part of the genre, I don't think it's possible to get around that without huge changes to the core game. Most quests, delves and dungeons would not be solvable and leveling would take ages with just exploration and crafting quests. I get the feeling what you are looking for is an entirely different game.

I overstand what you're saying but I'm referring to the ability to be a Daedra, skeleton, undead, werewolf, vampire, and witch, but no morph that represents the force for good. Where is it in this game? The Templar class is not a morph, nor is it passive. I'm just saying ...