Warrior VS Thief Mundus tested

Gilliamtherogue

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Exactly what I've seen the same after spending about 3 hours testing mundus stones, traits, and gear on stamina NB today. All done on the 6mill dummy, with 3 tests and averages taken of each, since crit RNG plays a large role in variability.

Warrior > Thief > Lover > Shadow. Warrior and Thief are both quite close.

Lover @ 37944
Thief @ 38040
Shadow @ 37528
Warrior @ 38631

Warrior is out critting Shadow in all instances, literally removing all purpose of the Shadow Mundus stone. It needs to go back to 12% base after the rebalancing of crit values. Even then it will likely only be good on Khajiit Nightblades.

Shadow is entirely dependent on having a high crit chance. It always has been, but with the decrease from 12%/18.3% (without and with divines) to 9%/13.725%, it's even more true now. It scales the poorest of any mundus when not optimized through build, but it also has the highest potential DPS increase of any of them when optimized, now moreso than ever since the thief was nerfed even more. At 85.6% crit chance, it is mathematically impossible for the shadow to be beat by any mundus including the thief even when you're getting 100% uptime on both major and minor force as a nightblade or templar (i.e. even with a 2.1x crit modifier); and that should be the goal for any build that can reach those numbers, because it's about a 12% increase to total damage done (with the possible exception of light and heavy attacks, since they appear to crit higher with the thief warrior due to being more tied to weapon damage than max stamina).

I appreciate the insight, but I am more than well aware of how it operates.

I have 90% crit chance and Shadow is still being beaten by Warrior, and all of my abilities crit higher with Warrior than with Shadow.

And do you have an explanation for why what should be a 12% increase to damage done is surpassed by 363 weapon damage? That's kind of what I'm most interested at the moment, for the purpose of theorycrafting and better understanding game mechanics.

12% increased damage? Are you referring to the original Shadow? The original Shadow would not be beaten by any Mundus Stone IF your crit was high enough, but the nerf to base 9% (13.725% with full divines) has left it being out performed by flat damage.

Warrior scales with WD scaling, so the 362 is buffed by;
Major Brutality (20%)
Minor Brutality (5%)
Fighter's Guild Passives (3% per ability)
Medium Armor passive (12%)
Possible Class Passives (many ranges).

In my build I only have a FG ability on my back bar so we'll just look at Med armor and Maj Brut, which gives an additive (since they multiply to base) effect that takes 362 to 477. Minor Brutality is not here, but would take that even further. Shadow cannot be amplified by anything other than Divines, which has a hard limited that I listed. If Major Force was still multiplicative, then we'd have a different story.

olsborg

Shadow does need a slight buff, its lol that the warrior will make crits hit harder then shadow.

Amdar_Godkiller

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Exactly what I've seen the same after spending about 3 hours testing mundus stones, traits, and gear on stamina NB today. All done on the 6mill dummy, with 3 tests and averages taken of each, since crit RNG plays a large role in variability.

Warrior > Thief > Lover > Shadow. Warrior and Thief are both quite close.

Lover @ 37944
Thief @ 38040
Shadow @ 37528
Warrior @ 38631

Warrior is out critting Shadow in all instances, literally removing all purpose of the Shadow Mundus stone. It needs to go back to 12% base after the rebalancing of crit values. Even then it will likely only be good on Khajiit Nightblades.

Shadow is entirely dependent on having a high crit chance. It always has been, but with the decrease from 12%/18.3% (without and with divines) to 9%/13.725%, it's even more true now. It scales the poorest of any mundus when not optimized through build, but it also has the highest potential DPS increase of any of them when optimized, now moreso than ever since the thief was nerfed even more. At 85.6% crit chance, it is mathematically impossible for the shadow to be beat by any mundus including the thief even when you're getting 100% uptime on both major and minor force as a nightblade or templar (i.e. even with a 2.1x crit modifier); and that should be the goal for any build that can reach those numbers, because it's about a 12% increase to total damage done (with the possible exception of light and heavy attacks, since they appear to crit higher with the thief warrior due to being more tied to weapon damage than max stamina).

I appreciate the insight, but I am more than well aware of how it operates.

I have 90% crit chance and Shadow is still being beaten by Warrior, and all of my abilities crit higher with Warrior than with Shadow.

And do you have an explanation for why what should be a 12% increase to damage done is surpassed by 363 weapon damage? That's kind of what I'm most interested at the moment, for the purpose of theorycrafting and better understanding game mechanics.

12% increased damage? Are you referring to the original Shadow? The original Shadow would not be beaten by any Mundus Stone IF your crit was high enough, but the nerf to base 9% (13.725% with full divines) has left it being out performed by flat damage.

Warrior scales with WD scaling, so the 362 is buffed by;
Major Brutality (20%)
Minor Brutality (5%)
Fighter's Guild Passives (3% per ability)
Medium Armor passive (12%)
Possible Class Passives (many ranges).

In my build I only have a FG ability on my back bar so we'll just look at Med armor and Maj Brut, which gives an additive (since they multiply to base) effect that takes 362 to 477. Minor Brutality is not here, but would take that even further. Shadow cannot be amplified by anything other than Divines, which has a hard limited that I listed. If Major Force was still multiplicative, then we'd have a different story.

I understand weapon damage buffs as I primarily play with a Stam DK and Stam Sorc. In the screenshots above, it's clear he's getting about 500 weapon damage from the mundus after buffs, about a 38% increase to the 363 weapon damage given by the Warrior. But that's a 500 increase from 4000 weapon damage, which isn't that significant for a Stam Sorc with 37000 stamina. It's only a 6.6% increase to damage done.

Meanwhile at your 90% weapons critical, the shadow's 13.725% increase to crit damage should lead to a damage done increase of:

13.725% * (.90 weapons critical) = 12.3525 % more damage done, or nearly twice the bonus granted from 500 weapon damage


So I'm asking, why is this the case? The only thing I can think of that would cause it perform so much lower than the rest would be if the shadow bonus has been changed from an additive bonus based on a percentage of base damage, which I'm pretty sure it once was,

(1.5 + 0.13725 = 1.63725),


to an additive bonus of just the critical portion of your damage

(1.5 + (.13725 * 0.5))= 1.568625

which is roughly a 6.2% increase in damage done and pretty much in line with the 6.6% bonus from the warrior and what you'd likely get with the thief with about 50 CP in precise strikes. All of them would be about 20-30% weaker than the lover.


Is that how the shadow is working now? I took a hiatus from the game for about 8 months after I got a new job and moved in November of last year, so I definitely could just be a little behind on some changes,.I know that major force was nerfed to an additive bonus earlier this year, but didn't realize there were other changes to crit damage modifier.

If the way it's calculated now is different, then I do apologize for my ignorance, I just want to understand.

Thanks!

RoyJade

I think you misunderstanding how the shadow stone work. The more crit damage you have, the less damage shadow give you because shadow's value is additive with your actual crit modifier value.

At 0% crit modifier and 100% crit chance, a 12% shadow would give you 12% increased damage.
At 50% crit modifier and 100% crit chance, the shadow would give you only 8% damage increase, since a 62% increased damage (50+12) is only 8% higher than a 50% increased damage.
At 100% crit modifier and 100% crit chance, the shadow would only give you a tiny 6% increase, half the value you was hoping for. At the same time, the warrior grew more and more in power, since his bus is multiplied by your crit modifier when the shadow is diminished.

So the stronger your crit modifier is, the weaker the shadow is, and the stronger the warrior is.

With a lower crit chance the difference between crit modifier values is less important, but it still lower the shadow effectiveness.


If you need the theoretical numbers, I can provide them.

Amdar_Godkiller

RoyJade wrote: »

I think you misunderstanding how the shadow stone work. The more crit damage you have, the less damage shadow give you because shadow's value is additive with your actual crit modifier value.

At 0% crit modifier and 100% crit chance, a 12% shadow would give you 12% increased damage.
At 50% crit modifier and 100% crit chance, the shadow would give you only 8% damage increase, since a 62% increased damage (50+12) is only 8% higher than a 50% increased damage.
At 100% crit modifier and 100% crit chance, the shadow would only give you a tiny 6% increase, half the value you was hoping for. At the same time, the warrior grew more and more in power, since his bus is multiplied by your crit modifier when the shadow is diminished.

So the stronger your crit modifier is, the weaker the shadow is, and the stronger the warrior is.

With a lower crit chance the difference between crit modifier values is less important, but it still lower the shadow effectiveness.


If you need the theoretical numbers, I can provide them.

Okay, I get it now, and appreciate the explanation.

If that's the case, then any build with high crit chance and low crit damage can still benefit more from the shadow than the warrior.

@75% crit chance with a 1.6 crit damage modifier, the shadow beats the warrior for any build with stamina and weapon damage of OP under those very restrictions. It's about a 7.1% increase from the shadow and a 6.6% increase from the warrior.

100 base damage (1 + 0.6 crit modifier (75% crit chance)) = 145 average expected damage with no mundus.

100 base damage (106.6% from warrior) (1 + 0.6 crit modifier(75% crit chance))= 154.57 expected damage with warrior

100 base damage (1 + ( .73725 crit modifier with shadow) (75% crit chance)) = 155.29 expected damage with shadow

It will take a minute for me to define that sweet spot for the shadow, but it's still there. I think DKs and Wardens will be the most likely to benefit from it.

Thanks for the clarification.

RoyJade

You're welcome.

Definitively, there is probably a sweet spot for shadow, but I think the gain from cp overshadow the gain from the stone. I need a better calculation model to take in account the bonus from the warrior on most classic endgame build.

Amdar_Godkiller

RoyJade wrote: »

You're welcome.

Definitively, there is probably a sweet spot for shadow, but I think the gain from cp overshadow the gain from the stone. I need a better calculation model to take in account the bonus from the warrior on most classic endgame build.

That's probably true for a lot of classes, but Warden really needs PVE optimization with no bonuses to weapon damage, crit chance, and crit damage, so I think if there's a way to beat the 8.4% penetration of the lover with either the shadow or the thief, then that's probably going to be the way to go with them. 1.80 crit damage modifier gets us there with the thief I think, and that might be the best way to go through CP and minor force buffs. I'll have to experiment with it a bit.

Beardimus

RoyJade wrote: »

I think you misunderstanding how the shadow stone work. The more crit damage you have, the less damage shadow give you because shadow's value is additive with your actual crit modifier value.

At 0% crit modifier and 100% crit chance, a 12% shadow would give you 12% increased damage.
At 50% crit modifier and 100% crit chance, the shadow would give you only 8% damage increase, since a 62% increased damage (50+12) is only 8% higher than a 50% increased damage.
At 100% crit modifier and 100% crit chance, the shadow would only give you a tiny 6% increase, half the value you was hoping for. At the same time, the warrior grew more and more in power, since his bus is multiplied by your crit modifier when the shadow is diminished.

So the stronger your crit modifier is, the weaker the shadow is, and the stronger the warrior is.

With a lower crit chance the difference between crit modifier values is less important, but it still lower the shadow effectiveness.


If you need the theoretical numbers, I can provide them.

Really really don't get that, can you go again in idiot (me) speak??

danno8

Simply put, Shadow is additive to your base crit damage, not multiplicative, so the increase of 9% bumps your crit damage from 1.5 (base) to 1.59.

1.59/1.5= 6% actual increase in damage.

And the more you have the less actual impact it has. For example say you are a Templar with base 1.6 thanks to passives, 1.69/1.6 = 5.625% increase.

Warrior on the other hand adds weapon damage which then gets multiplied by all sorts of other bonuses.

RoyJade

Beardimus wrote: »

Really really don't get that, can you go again in idiot (me) speak??

"Common" or "more imaged" speak seem better
And of course I can.

First things, the base data :
- the average formula of your damage is DAMAGE * (1-CRIT CHANCE) + DAMAGE * CRIT CHANCE * CRIT DAMAGE. DAMAGE is the value of damage your skill will do without doing a critical hit, and the other two (crit chance and crit damage) are pretty self explanatory. The formula has two part : one non crit part (the 1-crit chance) and one crit part who take the crit modifier into account.
- the shadow value apply additively to your crit damage, so with the base crit damage value (which is 150%, or x1,5) and considering that the shadow will give you 12% crit damage, the new value would be 162% (or 1,62).

With these datas, and considering a DAMAGE value of 100, we can make some calculations :

- 0% crit chance, 150% crit modifier : 100
- 10% crit chance, 150% crit modifier (aka a vanilla character without anything) : 100*0,9 + 100*0,1*1,5 = 105
- 10% crit chance, 150% crit modifier and shadow stone (so 162 crit modifier) : 106,2
- 106,2/105 = 1,011, so 1,1% damage increase with the shadow in this case.

- 50% crit chance, 150% crit modifier : 125 damage, 131 with shadow mundus, 4,8% increase with the stone
- 50% crit chance, 180% crit modifier : 140 damage, 148 with shadow, so 4,2% increase. More crit modifier = less reward from shadow.

- 80% crit chance, 150% crit modifier : 140 damage, 149,6 with shadow, 6,9% increase. More crit chance = more reward from shadow (of course).
- 80% crit chance, 180% crit modifier : 164 damage, 173,6 with shadow, 5,9% increase.
- 85% crit chance, 200% crit modifier (close to high endgame stambuild in raid) : 185 damage, 195,2 with shadow, 5,5% increase.

So we can see that the calculation of crit modifier really hurt shadow's potential, exactly the same as warhorn's nerf when it was changed to an additive increase instead of a multiplicative one. Technically, it's the same for all damage mundus, but it's more visible on some than on other.

Alite

Would this apply to apprentice too for mag builds? Basically apprentice would be greater than shadow in most scenarios?

RoyJade

As I said sooner in the topic, warrior benefit from a number of multiplicative increase, but a lot of them (flawless dawnbreaker, fighter's guild passive, medium armor) are exclusive to the stamina side. Magicka (and thus apprentice) does not benefit from as much increase, and so is less interesting.
That's doesn't mean apprentice is bad, actually it's probably one of the best magicka stone. After all, shadow was good on stam build with the high crit chance given by dagger/bow along with the slightly higher crit chance on medium passive, so shadow also does not benefit as much for a mag player. Mage with the max magicka bonus get more boost on the magicka side than max stam on the stam side, but the base value of the mage stone is less interesting than the apprentice's one.

Bobby_V_Rockit

I just cant bring myself to drop thief and only have 64% crit. Needs crits for ma healz