Warrior VS Thief Mundus tested

Raghul

Hey guys,

During these tests i was first using the warrior mundus, afterwards the thief mundus.
While the damage difference is not that big i still think the thief mundus should have stayed at 9% instead as 7%.
Also the shadow mundus should in my opinion get a small buff as right now you get higher crit damage using the warrior over the shadow.
I do think the nerfs to the 1-4 setpieces to crit got their rightfull nerf because that combined with shadow may have been abit to strong.
Lastly i think precise should have it's value increased back to 9 %.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1Kz4EHO0Vs

During these tests i used the same gear and cp and i tested on the 26mill dummie.

Amdar_Godkiller

1% difference is pretty damn close. I need to see how this compares with a nightblade, templar, and warden. For a DK, I'd expect about the same or possibly a greater difference, as they get similar percentage buffs to weapon damage with no crit damage modifier. With this setup, you're getting probably ~0.4% more weapon damage and likely about 11-12% less crit damage than a nightblade or templar will typically get. I'm thinking several stam classes will benefit most from different mundus buffs. My guess is that it will be DK and Sorc will benefit most from the warrior and the lover, templar and nightblade with the shadow or thief depending on setup, and warden will get the most out of the lover, warrior, and the shadow.


Nice Video!

idk

Essentially OP seems to be saying the two Mundus are pretty close to each other which is good. That's was the intent of the changes. At least the got one thing right with the changes.

Amdar_Godkiller

I agree that it's good. Every test I've seen is using either a stam sorc or a dk though so I'm interested to compare the results to those of other classes as I'm leveling up a warden and a stamblade currently.

Durham

In PVP warrior out performs it when you take shields in account... Sorcs, Magicka NB, Magicka Temps, some magicka DKs... even Stam DKs run a small shields... These take all crit away... Also many people also wear high crit resists so your crits themselves do less...

Amdar_Godkiller

Durham wrote: »

In PVP warrior out performs it when you take shields in account... Sorcs, Magicka NB, Magicka Temps, some magicka DKs... even Stam DKs run a small shields... These take all crit away... Also many people also wear high crit resists so your crits themselves do less...

The warrior will usually win out in PVP, but stam sorcs benefit from the crit heals as well, so going thief adds to your survivability as well.

Raghul

keep in mind i did have higher dps from bleed dps on the thief mundus because of RNG, so the damage difference is still bigger when you don't take the bleed into account. so the damage difference will be like 700 dps

Yakidafi

My magsorc is no longer a thief but an apprentice now(sharpened weapons)
My magnb switched from being a thief to become an apprentice aswell (sharpened weapons)
My magdk love the lover (does not use sharpened weapons)
My stamsorc is still a warrior might become a lover, will test it atleast (sharpened weapons)
My stamnb became a lover instead of a warrior in pvp(sharpened weapons)
The dmg decrease with the thief is quite big for me about atleast 700dps. I am happy though gained some dps instead. Specially on my dk.

Raghul

Yakidafi wrote: »

My magsorc is no longer a thief but an apprentice now(sharpened weapons)
My magnb switched from being a thief to become an apprentice aswell (sharpened weapons)
My magdk love the lover (does not use sharpened weapons)
My stamsorc is still a warrior might become a lover, will test it atleast (sharpened weapons)
My stamnb became a lover instead of a warrior in pvp(sharpened weapons)
The dmg decrease with the thief is quite big for me about atleast 700dps. I am happy though gained some dps instead. Specially on my dk.

Thanks for your input, the thief is on the lower end indeed, and there is absolutely no point in running the shadow anymore because the warrior gives more crit damage anyway. And on top of that, the warrior also increases non crit damage where the shadow does not. Byebye diversity

DarkMatter909

Does what you saying about the warrior also go for the apprentice for magic builds?

oMrRust

I'm wondering still.. What is the way to go build for magicka sorcerer? i'm only seeming to pull 24k dps with x5 julianos, x4 infalible aether, x1 vMA inferno staff (other staff IA staff. both sharpened), along with x2 ilambris.

RoyJade

DarkMatter909 wrote: »

Does what you saying about the warrior also go for the apprentice for magic builds?

Not a much since magicka build don't have a +12% spell damage (medium passive) and +3% spell damage for each fighter's guild skill slotted. Still, apprentice seem pretty solid for magicka build, probably the best in most of the case.

Raghul

oMrRust wrote: »

I'm wondering still.. What is the way to go build for magicka sorcerer? i'm only seeming to pull 24k dps with x5 julianos, x4 infalible aether, x1 vMA inferno staff (other staff IA staff. both sharpened), along with x2 ilambris.

There are many ways to go i believe but most of us are still figuring things out, i still think the old setups will still work with slight adjustments, i haven't played much magsorc lately so i can't really tell you for sure

Maryal

Raghul wrote: »

Hey guys,

During these tests i was first using the warrior mundus, afterwards the thief mundus.
While the damage difference is not that big i still think the thief mundus should have stayed at 9% instead as 7%.
Also the shadow mundus should in my opinion get a small buff as right now you get higher crit damage using the warrior over the shadow.
I do think the nerfs to the 1-4 setpieces to crit got their rightfull nerf because that combined with shadow may have been abit to strong.
Lastly i think precise should have it's value increased back to 9 %.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1Kz4EHO0Vs

During these tests i used the same gear and cp and i tested on the 26mill dummie.

For a valid test, one that isn't weighted, you would need to do the parses without gear, no CP points, and without racial passives enabled. I could be wrong, but at the beginning of the video the word "orc" appeared at the top of the screen. Orcs have a racial passive that: "Increases your damage with melee weapon attacks by 4%." If you are testing the warrior mundus ... the mundus that increases weapon damage...you already have a 4% boost being an orc, so the results would be skewed. It would be like me (woodelf nightblade) doing the same parse ... I would get different results than you because I have crit passives that most other classes don't have.

The only way I could get a neutral, or unbiased parse, is if I reset all my skills, then enabled only weapon skills/class skills BUT WIHOUT ENABLING any weapon, class, or racial passives. Pretty much, no passives could be enabled at all, IF the goal was to get an unbiased or neutral parse for comparative purposes (again, the parses would need to be done with no gear, no jewelry, no pots that boosted weapon damage or weapon crit (stamina regen is okay). Food/drinks are okay, and no CP).

If you don't want to go through all that, it would be helpful to the community if you let folks know that the parse results apply to (your particular race) which has xxxx racial passives that effect crit /weapon damage (whichever is applicable), and your particular class which has xxxx passives that effect crit /weapon damage (whichever is applicable). If you did the parse with CP points, you should let folks know your CP set up (regarding damage) since that would also have an effect on the parses. If you are wearing gear, then make sure you let folks know what gear/jewlery you are wearing since those will also likely effect the parse results (as well as the use of any pots that boost weapon damage / weapon crit).


Note: while you might use the same CP / gear ... those things will still effect the outcome.

Example:
1.) Wearing gear that bumps up your crit but gives you no increase whatsoever to weapon damage (for both parses), when you compair the parses between the warrior mundus and the theif mundus, you get xxx difference.
but
2.) If you were to wear different gear (same gear for both parses) that bumps your weapon damage, but gives you no increase to crit whatsoever, the difference between the two parses will NOT be the same as the difference between the two parses that you did in #1.

Anysra

This: Lastly i think precise should have it's value increased back to 9 %.
I totally agree.

Raghul

Maryal wrote: »

Raghul wrote: »

Hey guys,

During these tests i was first using the warrior mundus, afterwards the thief mundus.
While the damage difference is not that big i still think the thief mundus should have stayed at 9% instead as 7%.
Also the shadow mundus should in my opinion get a small buff as right now you get higher crit damage using the warrior over the shadow.
I do think the nerfs to the 1-4 setpieces to crit got their rightfull nerf because that combined with shadow may have been abit to strong.
Lastly i think precise should have it's value increased back to 9 %.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1Kz4EHO0Vs

During these tests i used the same gear and cp and i tested on the 26mill dummie.

For a valid test, one that isn't weighted, you would need to do the parses without gear, no CP points, and without racial passives enabled. I could be wrong, but at the beginning of the video the word "orc" appeared at the top of the screen. Orcs have a racial passive that: "Increases your damage with melee weapon attacks by 4%." If you are testing the warrior mundus ... the mundus that increases weapon damage...you already have a 4% boost being an orc, so the results would be skewed. It would be like me (woodelf nightblade) doing the same parse ... I would get different results than you because I have crit passives that most other classes don't have.

The only way I could get a neutral, or unbiased parse, is if I reset all my skills, then enabled only weapon skills/class skills BUT WIHOUT ENABLING any weapon, class, or racial passives. Pretty much, no passives could be enabled at all, IF the goal was to get an unbiased or neutral parse for comparative purposes (again, the parses would need to be done with no gear, no jewelry, no pots that boosted weapon damage or weapon crit (stamina regen is okay). Food/drinks are okay, and no CP).

If you don't want to go through all that, it would be helpful to the community if you let folks know that the parse results apply to (your particular race) which has xxxx racial passives that effect crit /weapon damage (whichever is applicable), and your particular class which has xxxx passives that effect crit /weapon damage (whichever is applicable). If you did the parse with CP points, you should let folks know your CP set up (regarding damage) since that would also have an effect on the parses. If you are wearing gear, then make sure you let folks know what gear/jewlery you are wearing since those will also likely effect the parse results (as well as the use of any pots that boost weapon damage / weapon crit).

Gear and cp you can see at the beginning of the video, orc passive to 4% melee damage only affects light and heavy attacks on dw bar and rending slashes, and you can not kill a 26 mill dummie without gear, cp and pots, you just can't sustain that. The reason i did a 12 minite fight was to get the RNG out of crits, monsterhelm procs etc, the longer the fight the more stable the result. I also kept same gear and cp for both tests so i didn't change anything apart from the mundus. And the orc passives doesn't increase weapon damage, just melee damage, melee damage is every skill with a range shorter then 5m, so only light/heavy attacks and rending slashes gets a small buff.

Amdar_Godkiller

Raghul wrote: »

... there is absolutely no point in running the shadow anymore because the warrior gives more crit damage anyway.

This doesn't make any sense. With those 56 CP in precise strikes, at least a 50% uptime of minor Force from Trap Beast, and the 13.725% increase to crit damage provided by the shadow, your crit damage modifier should be at around 1.89. For the warrior to give you larger crits, it means you are getting over a 9.25% increase to damage done from only 363 weapon damage? Something isn't right about that, as you'd need to be getting 25% more fully buffed weapon damage from the warrior mundus than you have without it to come anywhere close to a 10% damage done increase. Your character screen only shows a difference in weapon damage of about 500, which comes out to about a 12.5% increase to weapon damage, and about a 6.6% increase to damage done with around 37000 stamina. The lover would beat that with about a 2% increase to DPS.

Your critical chance is too low for the shadow to beat even the lover currently, though with your current setup, but at about 62% crit chance it should be about a 8.5% increase to damage done, and at 67.5% crit chance, it should surpass 9.3%.

Raghul

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Raghul wrote: »

... there is absolutely no point in running the shadow anymore because the warrior gives more crit damage anyway.

This doesn't make any sense. With those 56 CP in precise strikes, at least a 50% uptime of minor Force from Trap Beast, and the 13.725% increase to crit damage provided by the shadow, your crit damage modifier should be at around 1.89. For the warrior to give you larger crits, it means you are getting over a 9.25% increase to damage done from only 363 weapon damage? Something isn't right about that, as you'd need to be getting 25% more fully buffed weapon damage from the warrior mundus than you have without it to come anywhere close to a 10% damage done increase. Your character screen only shows a difference in weapon damage of about 500, which comes out to about a 12.5% increase to weapon damage, and about a 6.6% increase to damage done with around 37000 stamina. The lover would beat that with about a 2% increase to DPS.

Your critical chance is too low for the shadow to beat even the lover currently, though with your current setup, but at about 62% crit chance it should be about a 8.5% increase to damage done, and at 67.5% crit chance, it should surpass 9.3%.

I will try to provide screenshots later today of crit damage from warrior and shadow, guilliam already showed it on one of his vids/streams, but i will do the same.
But thanks for your calculations tho

DarkMatter909

RoyJade wrote: »

DarkMatter909 wrote: »

Does what you saying about the warrior also go for the apprentice for magic builds?

Not a much since magicka build don't have a +12% spell damage (medium passive) and +3% spell damage for each fighter's guild skill slotted. Still, apprentice seem pretty solid for magicka build, probably the best in most of the case.

Interesting, thank you. I really liked where my magsorc was after the sustain changes so it will be fun to try and find that sweet spot again if these changes mess that up for me.

Amdar_Godkiller

Raghul wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Raghul wrote: »

... there is absolutely no point in running the shadow anymore because the warrior gives more crit damage anyway.

This doesn't make any sense. With those 56 CP in precise strikes, at least a 50% uptime of minor Force from Trap Beast, and the 13.725% increase to crit damage provided by the shadow, your crit damage modifier should be at around 1.89. For the warrior to give you larger crits, it means you are getting over a 9.25% increase to damage done from only 363 weapon damage? Something isn't right about that, as you'd need to be getting 25% more fully buffed weapon damage from the warrior mundus than you have without it to come anywhere close to a 10% damage done increase. Your character screen only shows a difference in weapon damage of about 500, which comes out to about a 12.5% increase to weapon damage, and about a 6.6% increase to damage done with around 37000 stamina. The lover would beat that with about a 2% increase to DPS.

Your critical chance is too low for the shadow to beat even the lover currently, though with your current setup, but at about 62% crit chance it should be about a 8.5% increase to damage done, and at 67.5% crit chance, it should surpass 9.3%.

I will try to provide screenshots later today of crit damage from warrior and shadow, guilliam already showed it on one of his vids/streams, but i will do the same.
But thanks for your calculations tho

Sweet! I'm not trying to be an ass. The maths just don't quite work out with everything I've been hearing. Either something isn't scaling correctly, or they've fundamentally changed the way certain buffs work. I'm just trying to understand. By my calculations, at around 73-74% crit chance, the Shadow should beat everything for any endgame Stam DPS, and with the buffs to crit bonuses, even after it was lowered to 22%, that should be slightly easier to reach.

Beardimus

So how's mage compared to shadow, same thing but magika side??

Raghul

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Raghul wrote: »

... there is absolutely no point in running the shadow anymore because the warrior gives more crit damage anyway.

This doesn't make any sense. With those 56 CP in precise strikes, at least a 50% uptime of minor Force from Trap Beast, and the 13.725% increase to crit damage provided by the shadow, your crit damage modifier should be at around 1.89. For the warrior to give you larger crits, it means you are getting over a 9.25% increase to damage done from only 363 weapon damage? Something isn't right about that, as you'd need to be getting 25% more fully buffed weapon damage from the warrior mundus than you have without it to come anywhere close to a 10% damage done increase. Your character screen only shows a difference in weapon damage of about 500, which comes out to about a 12.5% increase to weapon damage, and about a 6.6% increase to damage done with around 37000 stamina. The lover would beat that with about a 2% increase to DPS.

Your critical chance is too low for the shadow to beat even the lover currently, though with your current setup, but at about 62% crit chance it should be about a 8.5% increase to damage done, and at 67.5% crit chance, it should surpass 9.3%.

gear used for test:



warrior crit:



warrior + trap crit:



shadow crit:



shadow + trap crit:



As you see warrior beats the shadow on both tests with or without the trap buff.
i also removed my gear because my tests get skewed with TFS procs ^^

Raghul

Beardimus wrote: »

So how's mage compared to shadow, same thing but magika side??

i haven't done the actual testing for magicka side, but i think shadow is on the lower end also there

Gilliamtherogue

Exactly what I've seen the same after spending about 3 hours testing mundus stones, traits, and gear on stamina NB today. All done on the 6mill dummy, with 3 tests and averages taken of each, since crit RNG plays a large role in variability.

Warrior > Thief > Lover > Shadow. Warrior and Thief are both quite close.

Lover @ 37944
Thief @ 38040
Shadow @ 37528
Warrior @ 38631

Warrior is out critting Shadow in all instances, literally removing all purpose of the Shadow Mundus stone. It needs to go back to 12% base after the rebalancing of crit values. Even then it will likely only be good on Khajiit Nightblades.

Amdar_Godkiller

The tool tip for light attacks are affected by weapon damage and max stamina differently than abilities, as I understand it. I'm not sure if it's more tied to weapon damage or max stamina, but I know that the ratio is more lopsided than most other abilities, and this could cause a higher than normal percentage increase with the warrior mundus.

Look at the rearming trap crit on the bottom screenshot. It hit for 2698.

The rearming trap with the warrior had a max crit of 2539, but it critted 4 ticks vs 1 on the shadow, with an average tick of 2163.

You got 6% more damage from trap crits with the shadow vs your maximum crit with the warrior, and nearly 25% more damage from the 1 shadow crit than you got from your average warrior crit.

So it looks like the only time when the warrior is out-critting the shadow is for LA/HA.

OrphanHelgen

Crit chance and wpn dmg, scales better in raids with warhorns compared to crit dmg, but gives a decent impression anyway.
Respect for sitting 12 mins on a dummy.

Amdar_Godkiller

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Exactly what I've seen the same after spending about 3 hours testing mundus stones, traits, and gear on stamina NB today. All done on the 6mill dummy, with 3 tests and averages taken of each, since crit RNG plays a large role in variability.

Warrior > Thief > Lover > Shadow. Warrior and Thief are both quite close.

Lover @ 37944
Thief @ 38040
Shadow @ 37528
Warrior @ 38631

Warrior is out critting Shadow in all instances, literally removing all purpose of the Shadow Mundus stone. It needs to go back to 12% base after the rebalancing of crit values. Even then it will likely only be good on Khajiit Nightblades.

Shadow is entirely dependent on having a high crit chance. It always has been, but with the decrease from 12%/18.3% (without and with divines) to 9%/13.725%, it's even more true now. It scales the poorest of any mundus when not optimized through build, but it also has the highest potential DPS increase of any of them when optimized, now moreso than ever since the thief was nerfed even more. At 85.6% crit chance, it is mathematically impossible for the shadow to be beat by any mundus including the thief even when you're getting 100% uptime on both major and minor force as a nightblade or templar (i.e. even with a 2.1x crit modifier); and that should be the goal for any build that can reach those numbers, because it's about a 12% increase to total damage done (with the possible exception of light and heavy attacks, since they appear to crit higher with the thief warrior due to being more tied to weapon damage than max stamina).

Gilliamtherogue

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Exactly what I've seen the same after spending about 3 hours testing mundus stones, traits, and gear on stamina NB today. All done on the 6mill dummy, with 3 tests and averages taken of each, since crit RNG plays a large role in variability.

Warrior > Thief > Lover > Shadow. Warrior and Thief are both quite close.

Lover @ 37944
Thief @ 38040
Shadow @ 37528
Warrior @ 38631

Warrior is out critting Shadow in all instances, literally removing all purpose of the Shadow Mundus stone. It needs to go back to 12% base after the rebalancing of crit values. Even then it will likely only be good on Khajiit Nightblades.

Shadow is entirely dependent on having a high crit chance. It always has been, but with the decrease from 12%/18.3% (without and with divines) to 9%/13.725%, it's even more true now. It scales the poorest of any mundus when not optimized through build, but it also has the highest potential DPS increase of any of them when optimized, now moreso than ever since the thief was nerfed even more. At 85.6% crit chance, it is mathematically impossible for the shadow to be beat by any mundus including the thief even when you're getting 100% uptime on both major and minor force as a nightblade or templar (i.e. even with a 2.1x crit modifier); and that should be the goal for any build that can reach those numbers, because it's about a 12% increase to total damage done (with the possible exception of light and heavy attacks, since they appear to crit higher with the thief warrior due to being more tied to weapon damage than max stamina).

I appreciate the insight, but I am more than well aware of how it operates.

I have 90% crit chance and Shadow is still being beaten by Warrior, and all of my abilities crit higher with Warrior than with Shadow.

Raghul

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Crit chance and wpn dmg, scales better in raids with warhorns compared to crit dmg, but gives a decent impression anyway.
Respect for sitting 12 mins on a dummy.

Thanks alot ^^

Amdar_Godkiller

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Exactly what I've seen the same after spending about 3 hours testing mundus stones, traits, and gear on stamina NB today. All done on the 6mill dummy, with 3 tests and averages taken of each, since crit RNG plays a large role in variability.

Warrior > Thief > Lover > Shadow. Warrior and Thief are both quite close.

Lover @ 37944
Thief @ 38040
Shadow @ 37528
Warrior @ 38631

Warrior is out critting Shadow in all instances, literally removing all purpose of the Shadow Mundus stone. It needs to go back to 12% base after the rebalancing of crit values. Even then it will likely only be good on Khajiit Nightblades.

Shadow is entirely dependent on having a high crit chance. It always has been, but with the decrease from 12%/18.3% (without and with divines) to 9%/13.725%, it's even more true now. It scales the poorest of any mundus when not optimized through build, but it also has the highest potential DPS increase of any of them when optimized, now moreso than ever since the thief was nerfed even more. At 85.6% crit chance, it is mathematically impossible for the shadow to be beat by any mundus including the thief even when you're getting 100% uptime on both major and minor force as a nightblade or templar (i.e. even with a 2.1x crit modifier); and that should be the goal for any build that can reach those numbers, because it's about a 12% increase to total damage done (with the possible exception of light and heavy attacks, since they appear to crit higher with the thief warrior due to being more tied to weapon damage than max stamina).

I appreciate the insight, but I am more than well aware of how it operates.

I have 90% crit chance and Shadow is still being beaten by Warrior, and all of my abilities crit higher with Warrior than with Shadow.

And do you have an explanation for why what should be a 12% increase to damage done is surpassed by 363 weapon damage? That's kind of what I'm most interested at the moment, for the purpose of theorycrafting and better understanding game mechanics.

Raghul

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Exactly what I've seen the same after spending about 3 hours testing mundus stones, traits, and gear on stamina NB today. All done on the 6mill dummy, with 3 tests and averages taken of each, since crit RNG plays a large role in variability.

Warrior > Thief > Lover > Shadow. Warrior and Thief are both quite close.

Lover @ 37944
Thief @ 38040
Shadow @ 37528
Warrior @ 38631

Warrior is out critting Shadow in all instances, literally removing all purpose of the Shadow Mundus stone. It needs to go back to 12% base after the rebalancing of crit values. Even then it will likely only be good on Khajiit Nightblades.

Thanks for the numbers and the input Gilliam :-)