Dragonknights and the Thu'um

starkerealm

BrianDavion wrote: »

the whole "DKs use dragon magic" bit is something DKs claim, but many mages simply dismiss them as just being desruction mages. pretty sure if they where using the Thu'um they'd not be dismissed so easily

Wouldn't be able to dismiss it either. Remember, when Thu'um users start getting extremely powerful, they need to go mute, because even a whisper runs the risk of fantastic devastation.

I mean, sure, maybe the Greybeards are being overly cautious, but, at the same time, they would be the ones to know.

RinaldoGandolphi

Tyrobag wrote: »

This post is just a repetition of your other incorrect arguments, with a few more unproven theories thrown in. I'm too tired to bother repeating everything that you're wrong about. You can internally believe what you want, but please stop trying to mislead others.

@Tyrobag

Wow....Nothing i posted in that response was theory.

You can believe what you want. However,

the Official IN-GAME guides and In-game descriptions of Dragonknight Class SAY with 100% Certainty that Dragonknights are NOT using the The Voice:

In-Game Description: These skillful masters-at-arms use the ancient Akaviri martial arts tradition of battle-spirit, and wield fearsome magic that pounds, shatters and physically alters the world around them.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Dragonknight

Dragonknights are using a form of Akaviri Martial fighting style called "Battle Spirit". They are NOT sing Kiai, They are NOT using the Voice, they are using Battle Spirit which is a form of Ancient Martial Arts...

I am not misleading people on anything. You just don't happen to agree and that's your choice.

Just because Kiai and The Voice both have verbal components do not make them the same thing. Voice users speak when using the Voice, and Mage's speak when casting spells, they both have verbal components, but yet they are not the same thing.

They have been very obscure on what exactly Kiai is, but its pretty obvious that the Ancient Akaviri Martial Arts Style of Battle Spirit is not the Voice. If you want to be technical the Majority of the Dragonknights skills fall under the major schools of magic

• Ardent Flame Skill line is certainly from the Destruction school of magic.
• Earthen Heart and Draconic Power most certainly lean very heavy on the Alteration School of magic with its theme on "changing the world around the caster so normal physical truths no longer hold." that sums up the Earthen Heart and Draconic Power Trees to a tee.

Just because they are not casting spells in the same traditional form or sense as they do on Tamriel doesn't mean it isn't just plain magic. The Mage's Guild was founded by Vanus Galerion after he left the Psyjiic Order, and the forms and styles od magic he taught was heavily influenced by that style(and its flaws) as is most of the magic taught in Tamriel later on by the Winterhold College, College of Imperial Battlemages, Synod, etc.....

The Akaviri had no Psyjiic or other such influences on their styles of magic, and its certainly plausible that the Akaviri simply developed their own form of magic over the centuries that fit and molded to the environment they lived in. Magic in Tamriel would probably look much different if they had been influenced and fighting dragons for a few thousand years....just saying...magic has many different shapes and forms. Imitating or being like dragons would be one of those possible forms...just like the magic being wielded in Tamriel is largely based on "Psyjiic" style. The Psyjiic style would look foreign to the Akaviri as much as we thing Battle Spirit looks foreign to us and why we think it must be something more then just magic.

Im just going to leave it at that. There is no direct evidence that Kiai is the Voice other then they both have a verbal component, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

good day

Tyrobag

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Wow....Nothing i posted in that response was theory.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Jurgen Windcaller and his 17 disciples built High Hrothger, the 7,000 steps, and the plaques detailing the history of the Voice as handed down by Paathurnax(Paarthurnax joins The Way of the Voice later on) This is verified numerous times in game and via dialogue. Windcaller built High Hrothgar, and depending on how long Windcaller lived he put up the tablets and 7,000 steps too, and if he didn't ,later later generations of Greybeards did.

Theory 1

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Why do you think Arngeir gets so angry that The Blades want to kill Paarthurnaax? Pay attention to what Arngeir says about how Paarthurnaax "knowledge" is too important and simply could never be replaced. Paarthurnaax is giving the account of Emblems 1-5 because he is the only one(besides Miirak) who was alive back then then that would know what had happened.

Theory 2

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I never said they were the only mortals to learn. I said BEFORE Kyne gifted mortals the ability to shout, NO MORTAL could Shout like dragons...their brains could NOT comprehend the meaning of the words of power, and this was put into place intentionally by the Gods because The Voice could blot out the sky and flood the land, The Voice was deemed too powerful for Mortals to be allowed to understand it.

Theory 3

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

However, when Alduin shirked on his duty(devouring the world every kalpa) and instead wanted to rule the world, the Gods had to step in and stop him...there 1st attempt was the birth of the birth of the 1st Dragonborn(Miirak) which of course didn't work out as Miirak refused to help deal with Alduin(He verifies this in-game) so Kyne fell upon her backup plan of gifting mortals the ability to learn(understand) the World of Power, and then convinced Paarthurnaax to teach them.

Theory 4 (at least this one had some logical backing)

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Only a small group of people have the ability to learn(born with it)...not every Nord has the affinity to learn, if they did literally every Nord would be learning it. The Greybeards only permit a select few to learn with them(they have to pass tests showing they have affinity to learn, and not everyone has it, just like not everyone can learn how to be a brain surgeon, not all people are born equally intelligent)

Theory 5

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Of course! because The Ebony Warrior is an aspect of Ebonarm. Just like The Last Dragonborn is an aspect of Talos.(As confirmed by The Grerybeards and the spirit of Talos friend at Old Hrlodran) Ebonarm used to be The God of War before Talos ascended and super seceded him. Ebonarm still exists, he is just the lesser personality of the God of War, Talos is now the dominant personality. For whatever reason, Ebonarm decided to test The Last Dragonborn in the events of Skyrim.

Theory 6 (actually a few of them here)

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

An aspect won't be an exact copy....The Ebony Warrior doesn't have a flowing gold beard, a missing hand with an Ebony Blade in its place, or a steed named War Master. That doesn't make him any less an aspect. Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox were all aspects of Lorhkan, all of them were different from one another, didn't have each others traits, trademarks, scars, etc completely yet they were all aspects of the same deity. Thats what The Ebony Warrior is, I thought Bethesda made that pretty clear considering the Ebony Warrior is a Redguard who wants to go to Sovengarde instead of the Far Shores(When Ebonarm is in fact a Yokudan/Redguard deity and God of War) I think Bethesda explained that Ebonarm is now a lesser personality of Talos pretty well, but who am I?......

Theory 7

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Saying Kiai is the Voice actually cheapens the Akaviri and actually cheapens what Kiai actually is. In my opinion, Kiai is actually what the Akaviri use to draw on their spirit to augment the world around them. The fact they need no words of power to do this means Kiai is a unique and powerful form of magic and technique that they could actually end up building a future game around...as there is no other style like it.

Theory 8 (seriously, you even said opinion in this one)

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The Redguards used to have spirit swords.....I think Kiai is the Akaviri version of that, but different of course....as its clear they can do much more with it then simply create a spiritual sword.....they certainly don't need words of power to use it....leave Kiai stand alone like it needs to, its something unique to the Akaviri that will make a great future story.

Theory 9

Yup... No theories at all. *sarcasum*

Of course maybe you were just playing with semantics, we can also call them "assumptions" "guesses" "presumptions" "conjecture", take your pick.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

starkerealm wrote: »

It's also how you prove your point in the first place. Anyone can go out there and say whatever they want. Being able to actually demonstrate the point in the first place is the initial, necessary, step. Without that, all you've got is an opinion.

So why aren't you proving your point, starke? I've got a bunch of lorebooks backing me up, while the best argument you've been able to come up with is that the game mechanics aren't the same as they are in Skyrim - which, as I pointed out earlier, is due to Skyrim being a completely different type of game, in addition to the fact that they weren't even consistent within Skyrim, thus not very convincing.

If my premise is so impossible, there should be half-a-dozen books or quests or other things in-game you can link to directly to prove your argument. Yet all you do is wail that my sources 'don't count' which suggests to me you don't think there is anything contracting them either or you'd have gone and found whatever-it-was already.

But maybe I'm giving you credit for a background in the lore you don't actually possess. Maybe you're not actually all that well versed in the setting's background. That's okay! It's easily remedied. Go do some research - the UESP does little footnotes next to most of the comments in the general descriptions; they link to the lorebook or other source where that information came from. The Imperial Library also has this nifty little tag page; this lets you find a bunch of lorebooks on a particular topic. Go do some research, then come back, and maybe you'll have something to back yourself up with this time!

starkerealm

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

the Official IN-GAME guides and In-game descriptions of Dragonknight Class SAY with 100% Certainty that Dragonknights are NOT using the The Voice:

In-Game Description: These skillful masters-at-arms use the ancient Akaviri martial arts tradition of battle-spirit, and wield fearsome magic that pounds, shatters and physically alters the world around them.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Dragonknight

Dragonknights are using a form of Akaviri Martial fighting style called "Battle Spirit". They are NOT sing Kiai, They are NOT using the Voice, they are using Battle Spirit which is a form of Ancient Martial Arts...

I am not misleading people on anything. You just don't happen to agree and that's your choice.

Just because Kiai and The Voice both have verbal components do not make them the same thing. Voice users speak when using the Voice, and Mage's speak when casting spells, they both have verbal components, but yet they are not the same thing.

They have been very obscure on what exactly Kiai is, but its pretty obvious that the Ancient Akaviri Martial Arts Style of Battle Spirit is not the Voice. If you want to be technical the Majority of the Dragonknights skills fall under the major schools of magic

I'm going to go out on a limb, and say the Kiai is the actual verbal component of the Akaviri martial arts. I'm mostly basing this on the name, though.

In the real world, Kiai is a Japanese term for the shouts one makes while practicing a martial arts technique. You'll run across this in Judo, Aikido, Karate... really, most Asian martial arts, though the term does change with the culture (but, in this case, Kiai is specifically the Japanese word).

This is, strictly, a process by which the user focuses themselves on their strike. It's sometimes attributed pseudo-mystical effects, but really it's there as an aid for the martial artist. Nothing magical about it (obviously).

It is not unreasonable to infer that the Akaviri martial arts include these kinds of chi focusing shouts. Again, we actually see this from the DK's abilities. Which would lead to the conclusion that the Kiai is the focus for the Akaviri martial magic.

So, the Akaviri practice a form of magical martial arts, which they use their shouts as a tool to focus their magical abilities, much like how Third and Fourth Era mages uses hand gestures.

In all, it's reasonable to assume that the DK is using Kiai as their preferred method of expressing their magical talents, and that, as in the real world, it is one small part of their martial arts traditions. One that is easily recognizable to outsiders, but no where near as central to what they do, as the uninitiated might think.

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

So why aren't you proving your point, starke?

In point of fact, I have been, when I felt like it. On the rest, I don't really feel the need to, because you haven't managed to make a convincing argument yet.

The evidence set against you is that, no matter how badly you wish it were so, the game flat out tells you, "no, this isn't what you're doing."

It tells you this on character creation, as @RinaldoGandolphi pointed out.

It tells you this every time you activate a class ability as a DK.

In fact, the only evidence you have to support your point is a lorebook from TES3 (if not earlier), that is, rather clearly, inaccurate to egregious degrees. Even then, the only connection there is a simile. Just because "X is like Y" does not mean that "X = Y."

And a lorebook from a DK hitting on a girl and saying, "oh, yeah, baby, I've got the power of a dragon in mah pants!"

You'll have to forgive me, but that's not particularly convincing.

starkerealm

Tyrobag wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Of course! because The Ebony Warrior is an aspect of Ebonarm. Just like The Last Dragonborn is an aspect of Talos.(As confirmed by The Grerybeards and the spirit of Talos friend at Old Hrlodran) Ebonarm used to be The God of War before Talos ascended and super seceded him. Ebonarm still exists, he is just the lesser personality of the God of War, Talos is now the dominant personality. For whatever reason, Ebonarm decided to test The Last Dragonborn in the events of Skyrim.

Theory 6 (actually a few of them here)

In defense of these, I do actually like these theories, and they retroactively make Skyrim way more interesting. Especially the part where the Ebony Warrior only shows up when you hit level 80 (and had maxed most skills when he was introduced in the game).

Though, sadly, "I like" is not the same as official confirmation.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

starkerealm wrote: »

So, the Akaviri practice a form of magical martial arts, which they use their shouts as a tool to focus their magical abilities, much like how Third and Fourth Era mages uses hand gestures.

Just like the Nords, in other words.

starkerealm wrote: »

In all, it's reasonable to assume that the DK is using Kiai as their preferred method of expressing their magical talents, and that, as in the real world, it is one small part of their martial arts traditions.

*starts timer to see how long before starke realizes he just agreed with the OP*

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

So, the Akaviri practice a form of magical martial arts, which they use their shouts as a tool to focus their magical abilities, much like how Third and Fourth Era mages uses hand gestures.

Just like the Nords, in other words.

Yes, just like Nord mages that practice conventional arcane magic.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

In all, it's reasonable to assume that the DK is using Kiai as their preferred method of expressing their magical talents, and that, as in the real world, it is one small part of their martial arts traditions.

*starts timer to see how long before starke realizes he just agreed with the OP*

Just like Nord mages that practice conventional arcane magic, not like non-mages who practice theurgical sorcery.

starkerealm

I understand what's tripping you up, WhiteCoat. It's really quite simple. You think, all magic, is equivalent.

It's not.

It's very clearly not.

There are different kinds of magical power. Something the games have been very clear on for ages. Magic used by the Aedra and Daedra isn't the same as the magicka infused spells that are used by mortals. In fact, we've had fairly clear indications over the years that there are some vastly different kinds of magic loose on Tamriel.

You cannot cast a spell to turn yourself into a werewolf. It's not a spell. It's a curse, but the distinction between these things is far more significant than it may appear to you.

While there are a lot of unanswered questions about the Thu'um. One thing is very clear. These are not aetherial spells.

What Dragon Knights do is say they're dragons, or channeling the power of dragons, or whatever. Okay, fine. If you think that's sufficient evidence to support your position, I suggest you take a look at an otherkin forum, and then come back, and tell me you honestly believe the people there that believe they're dragons. Not, you know, in a video game, but in the real world.

RinaldoGandolphi

Your just grabbing at straws...if you don't think the Grandmaster of the Greybeards(Paarthurnaax) handed down history of dragons, the voice, etc to his disciples that later wrote that information down to preserve it that is common among many monastic orders, then there is simply having no rational discussion with you on that subject.

everything in TES is theoretical...Everything that is written in lorebooks is theoretical. Everything is obscured on purpose. Whats right and whats wrong is based on what theory is most deduced to be correct based on incomplete writings and conjecture. There is no one single truth in TES sadly.

Paarthurnaax and the Greybeards history(as handed down from Paarthurnaax down though the centuries to his disciples in The Way of The Voice and chronicled)" is as close as your ever going to get to fact in TES universe.

I stand by my statement that Dragonknights are using The Ancient Akaviri Martial Arts Style of Battle Spirit. Its a fighting and magic style unique to Akavir. They just happen to use their Voice(Kiai) as a vocal component to focus their magic where as Tamrielic Mages uses their hands to focus magic. Magic having many forms, its not unreasonable that the Akaviri developed a style of magic completely different from Tamriel style, and considering Akavir is the land of dragons its no suprise the Akaviri magic is "dragon like" in its outward appearance. That doesn't mean its the Voice, but it does mean its a powerful form of magic and fighting style that Tamrelic mages don't really understand much about.

RinaldoGandolphi

starkerealm wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Of course! because The Ebony Warrior is an aspect of Ebonarm. Just like The Last Dragonborn is an aspect of Talos.(As confirmed by The Grerybeards and the spirit of Talos friend at Old Hrlodran) Ebonarm used to be The God of War before Talos ascended and super seceded him. Ebonarm still exists, he is just the lesser personality of the God of War, Talos is now the dominant personality. For whatever reason, Ebonarm decided to test The Last Dragonborn in the events of Skyrim.

Theory 6 (actually a few of them here)

In defense of these, I do actually like these theories, and they retroactively make Skyrim way more interesting. Especially the part where the Ebony Warrior only shows up when you hit level 80 (and had maxed most skills when he was introduced in the game).

Though, sadly, "I like" is not the same as official confirmation.

Yup,

But there will never be official confirmation. That what people like Tyrobag simply doesn't get. Official conformation on say...what happened to the Dwarves for example would ruin the air of mystery around the series....just like the theories that Hoag Merkiller, Wulfharth, Pelinal Whitestrake, Hans the Fox, Harald Hairy Breeks, etc were all avatars of Lorhkan called Shezzarines. This has never been substantially proven in game, its merely a theory and its one Bethesda will never confirm because it will ruin the air of mystery around the game.

TES is purposely obscured by lies and obfuscations with small pieces of facts mixed in.

Mankar Cameron's Speech in Oblivion is a fine example of this. He mixes in small kernels of truth with lies and obfuscation. Can you find where he is telling the truth and where he is lying?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GsqEfSOJOU

Isn't in funny he talks about Merdia's Coldhabor, and we later find out she protects and inhabits the Hollow City inside Molag Bal realm? Coincidence that Merida has a city in another Daedric Realm? Draw your own conclusions.

The mystery gets even better!

Mankar Cameron was probably a Dragonborn(or somehow made himself Dragonborn)

Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes Book 1:

Offering myself to that daybreak allowed the girdle of grace to contain me. When my voice returned, it spoke with another tongue. After three nights I could speak fire.

Another tongue, speaking another language, breathing fire...sounds a lot like The Voice to me, Fire Breath to be precise

Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes Book 2:

Whisper to earth and earth, where the meddlers take no stones except to blood, as blood IS blood, and to the cracking of bone, as bone IS bone, and so to crack and answer and fall before the one and one, I call you Dragon as brother and king

There is also the fact that Mankar Cameron was able to wear the Amulet of Kings. Here is what the Book of the Dragonborn has to say:

"Those who become Emperor and light the Dragonfires are surely Dragonborn - the proof is in the wearing of the Amulet and the lighting of the Fires. But were they Dragonborn and thus able to do these things - or was the doing the sign of the blessing of Akatosh descending upon them? All that we can say is that it is both, and neither - a divine mystery. "

So just wearing the Amulet is proof of being Dragonborn(or having the potential to become Dragonborn when lighting the Dragonfires). as its hinted in the above passage that certain Royal Lines(Septims) may have the ability to become Dragonborn by using the Amulet to Light the Fires. Its not however understood if this has to do with heredity, or some other means of Akatosh deciding to bestow his blessing upon specific family lines. This is not made clear.

We do know that Varen wasn't actually able to wear the Amulet, wereas Martin and Mankar Cameron could...so what would happen in those two events would be very very different obviously.

So again...was Mankar Dragonborn, or did he just use clever magic to cheat the system? We will never know for certain. While it does appear that Mankar infact learns the Dragon Language and the ability to shout within a 3 day period, its not 100% verified that he is infact using The Voice.

Im just trying to get the point across via various examples to guys like Tyrobag there there is ZERO fact in TES lore and that everything is theoretical and obscured on purpose to keep an air of mystery around the series.

Tyrobag

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Your just grabbing at straws...if you don't think the Grandmaster of the Greybeards(Paarthurnaax) handed down history of dragons, the voice, etc to his disciples that later wrote that information down to preserve it that is common among many monastic orders, then there is simply having no rational discussion with you on that subject.

everything in TES is theoretical...Everything that is written in lorebooks is theoretical. Everything is obscured on purpose. Whats right and whats wrong is based on what theory is most deduced to be correct based on incomplete writings and conjecture. There is no one single truth in TES sadly.

Paarthurnaax and the Greybeards history(as handed down from Paarthurnaax down though the centuries to his disciples in The Way of The Voice and chronicled)" is as close as your ever going to get to fact in TES universe.

I stand by my statement that Dragonknights are using The Ancient Akaviri Martial Arts Style of Battle Spirit. Its a fighting and magic style unique to Akavir. They just happen to use their Voice(Kiai) as a vocal component to focus their magic where as Tamrielic Mages uses their hands to focus magic. Magic having many forms, its not unreasonable that the Akaviri developed a style of magic completely different from Tamriel style, and considering Akavir is the land of dragons its no suprise the Akaviri magic is "dragon like" in its outward appearance. That doesn't mean its the Voice, but it does mean its a powerful form of magic and fighting style that Tamrelic mages don't really understand much about.

Once again, you've simply repeated the same few arguments. Although this time, you basically quoted the motto of c0da (no one single truth). Despite what you may think, the word "rational" does not mean that everyone agrees with you. Sorry, you don't get to insist that you are right without any proof.

starkerealm

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Mankar Cameron was probably a Dragonborn(or somehow made himself Dragonborn)

This one's actually much easier to confirm than that, however. When you encounter him, he's wearing the Amulet of Kings. One thing Oblivion makes crystal clear, up to that point, is that only the Dragonborn can actually wear the thing. If anyone else tries, it will slip from their neck immediately.

So, either he messed with the Amulet... or more likely, he satisfies the conditions for wearing it in the first place.

I'd forgotten that he botches up the list of Princes with their realms, though. It's a good point, and I can't imagine this is supposed to be a mistake on the part of the character.

starkerealm

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

everything in TES is theoretical...Everything that is written in lorebooks is theoretical. Everything is obscured on purpose. Whats right and whats wrong is based on what theory is most deduced to be correct based on incomplete writings and conjecture. There is no one single truth in TES sadly.

This part isn't quite true however.

You can't trust everything that's been written down. That's true. The authors of Tamriel operate within their own limited perspectives of what they know, and understand, then they color that with their biases. But, you can extract accurate information from them, if you go into it with that understanding, and can parse out why they were writing in the first place.

It's defeatist to say, "everyone lies, so there's no point in even trying."

That said, there are clear, concise, truths in the setting. You can find many. Not all; but many.

When you understand that you need to filter an author's opinions out, and evaluate the argument they're making, you can come away with a pretty coherent idea of what they can contribute to the discussion.

On the subject of the Thu'um, we can get a pretty concrete understanding of the metaphysics behind it, and how it functions just from dialog from sources we can trust to be (at least somewhat) honest about those elements, and how that fits in to the mechanics presented.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Starke, if you truly want to make an argument that people who have fought with and against dragons for centuries, who fought under a known Dragonborn, and who have had literally thousands of years to study the dragon tongue and adopt it to their use for some reason decided not to do so in spite of knowing they were going to need a Shout for the prophecy they invaded Tamriel for...

...then you're going to need to stop jumping to conclusions.

notimetocare

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Starke, if you truly want to make an argument that people who have fought with and against dragons for centuries, who fought under a known Dragonborn, and who have had literally thousands of years to study the dragon tongue and adopt it to their use for some reason decided not to do so in spite of knowing they were going to need a Shout for the prophecy they invaded Tamriel for...

...then you're going to need to stop jumping to conclusions.

Nords were subjugated for a long time by dragons amd needed amd aedra to give them the ability to shout. DKs do not use Thuum. Thuum is too mechanically complex to just 'learn the words'. Give it up, you are stretching to try and fit your own headcanon

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Starke, if you truly want to make an argument that people who have fought with and against dragons for centuries, who fought under a known Dragonborn, and who have had literally thousands of years to study the dragon tongue and adopt it to their use for some reason decided not to do so in spite of knowing they were going to need a Shout for the prophecy they invaded Tamriel for...

...then you're going to need to stop jumping to conclusions.

Here's a simple one. We know that it takes, "years," for a non-Dragonborn to learn each word of a shout. Each shout is comprised of three words.

Let's be generous, and say that "years," literally means two, (though it is probably much higher).

Let's also assume that there's no diminishing returns. That is to say, for a non-dragonborn to learn the second word requires no more effort than the first, and the third is equally easy. And learning additional shouts also impart no additional learning time. Again, all of the information we have from timelines with Skryim suggest this isn't the case, but for the sake of argument, let's give your theory all the possible support we can.

Dragon Knights have three skill lines. Each skill line consists of five normal abilities and an ultimate. In a normal 1-50 playthrough, it's entirely likely that you'll purchase all of these and morph them. Assuming you do not deliberately choose to ignore an ability or two along the way.

Let's also assume that a character can start learning shouts at age 7. This doesn't seem reasonable to me, but we have to pick an age somewhere, and in your favor, let's go as low as reasonably possible.

Finally, because purchasing skills is not gated beyond simply advancing that skill line far enough, let's assume your character already knows how to execute those abilities and has simply lost the capacity to do so... somehow.

So, six times three is eighteen, times three (words) is fifty-four. Add seven years, and your minimum age for a Dragon Knight is sixty-one. They can get a full four years of adventuring in before they need to retire.

But, wait, it gets better. Because we know, for a fact, that your shouty adventuring hero can't talk. That part has been very clearly illustrated in Skyrim. By the time you've learned all the requisite shouts, your character's voice would have become so powerful, they literally cannot speak, without resorting to the Thu'um. It's not entirely clear why this is the case, but it is what we see at High Hrothgar.

Or you could just roll a character trained in the Akaviri martial traditions, and get access to all of that on the fly. Without the pesky rare language that scrambles your human brain, and causes you to shake the mountains whenever you speak.

Enodoc

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Starke, if you truly want to make an argument that people who have fought with and against dragons for centuries, who fought under a known Dragonborn, and who have had literally thousands of years to study the dragon tongue and adopt it to their use for some reason decided not to do so in spite of knowing they were going to need a Shout for the prophecy they invaded Tamriel for...

...then you're going to need to stop jumping to conclusions.

That entire line of reasoning doesn't mean they were actually able to though. The kiai might have been as close to a true Dragon Shout as they were able to get, while still not actually being one.

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

...for some reason decided not to do so...

The implication, from Skyrim, and Children of the Sky is that the Dragon language literally messes with the minds of non-dragons who seek to learn it, until it fully consumes their ability to speak. A problem that doesn't afflict the Dragonborn or actual dragons.

This is ignoring the time and rigors involved in learning the language itself. And, while the Greybeards may be overstating this, it does seem to be a real concern. Otherwise, as a form of spell craft, it would have proliferated on Tamriel. Instead, it's vanishingly rare.

starkerealm

Enodoc wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Starke, if you truly want to make an argument that people who have fought with and against dragons for centuries, who fought under a known Dragonborn, and who have had literally thousands of years to study the dragon tongue and adopt it to their use for some reason decided not to do so in spite of knowing they were going to need a Shout for the prophecy they invaded Tamriel for...

...then you're going to need to stop jumping to conclusions.

That entire line of reasoning doesn't mean they were actually able to though. The kiai might have been as close to a true Dragon Shout as they were able to get, while still not actually being one.

Again, if we're looking at what we've seen in game, it appears there are some serious downsides for non-dragons who attempt to learn their language. So, that's another really good reason not to learn and use the Thu'um.

Tyrobag

starkerealm wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

...for some reason decided not to do so...

The implication, from Skyrim, and Children of the Sky is that the Dragon language literally messes with the minds of non-dragons who seek to learn it, until it fully consumes their ability to speak. A problem that doesn't afflict the Dragonborn or actual dragons.

This is ignoring the time and rigors involved in learning the language itself. And, while the Greybeards may be overstating this, it does seem to be a real concern. Otherwise, as a form of spell craft, it would have proliferated on Tamriel. Instead, it's vanishingly rare.

That is not implied at all, the most powerful tongues gag themselves so they don't cause destruction when they speak, it has nothing to do with their minds.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

starkerealm wrote: »

Here's a simple one. We know that it takes, "years," for a non-Dragonborn to learn each word of a shout. Each shout is comprised of three words.

Let's be generous, and say that "years," literally means two, (though it is probably much higher).

Let's also assume that there's no diminishing returns. That is to say, for a non-dragonborn to learn the second word requires no more effort than the first, and the third is equally easy. And learning additional shouts also impart no additional learning time. Again, all of the information we have from timelines with Skryim suggest this isn't the case, but for the sake of argument, let's give your theory all the possible support we can.

Dragon Knights have three skill lines. Each skill line consists of five normal abilities and an ultimate. In a normal 1-50 playthrough, it's entirely likely that you'll purchase all of these and morph them. Assuming you do not deliberately choose to ignore an ability or two along the way.

Let's also assume that a character can start learning shouts at age 7. This doesn't seem reasonable to me, but we have to pick an age somewhere, and in your favor, let's go as low as reasonably possible.

Finally, because purchasing skills is not gated beyond simply advancing that skill line far enough, let's assume your character already knows how to execute those abilities and has simply lost the capacity to do so... somehow.

So, six times three is eighteen, times three (words) is fifty-four. Add seven years, and your minimum age for a Dragon Knight is sixty-one. They can get a full four years of adventuring in before they need to retire.

First, two years on average may actually be a bit high - Ulfric picked up two Shouts in less than ten years. And Gormlaith Golden-Hilt and Hakon One-Eye – about how old would you say they were? They can't be older than forty when we see them in the past; there's a skin texture setting for age forty and age fifty in the CK and neither of them has either. And each of them knows six Shouts. Even assuming they got picked up by Paarthurnax for training at age 7 (which I agree is low) – still averages lower than two years per word.

(And before you protest that they had however-many odd years in Sovngarde to study: I checked the Creation Kit for that too. Past! Gormlaith and Hakon know the same Shouts as Sovngarde! Gormlaith and Hakon. Still six Shouts.)

You're also assuming that each new word or new Shout is the same or greater effort to learn as the first; you aren't taking into consideration that it might be easier, having heard some of the language already and gotten the hang of it at least once before, to do the same thing but with a different word.

starkerealm wrote: »

But, wait, it gets better. Because we know, for a fact, that your shouty adventuring hero can't talk. That part has been very clearly illustrated in Skyrim. By the time you've learned all the requisite shouts, your character's voice would have become so powerful, they literally cannot speak, without resorting to the Thu'um. It's not entirely clear why this is the case, but it is what we see at High Hrothgar.

Did you not talk to Arngeir at all? Because he speaks normally with perfect ease. And he's supposed to be the most powerful of the human Greybeards. Ulfric and the Ebony Warrior are also both capable of perfectly normal speech.

Enodoc wrote: »

That entire line of reasoning doesn't mean they were actually able to though. The kiai might have been as close to a true Dragon Shout as they were able to get, while still not actually being one.

Except that recall Children of the Sky is using the Akaviri kiai to describe what the Nords are doing, and Ardent Flame: Draconic or Endemic? specifically references Dragonknight abilities as being 'dragon magic handed down from those mighty warriors who fought and won a war with the dragons back before the First Era'.

(Now, if you know of another Dragon War other than the one with Felldir and friends, please link it for me – I freely admit to very little knowledge of most of the very old games, I'm sure there have been interviews I missed, etc.)

The breakdown is like this:

Ardent Flame: Draconic or Endemic? -> Dragonknights get their powers from the people who won the Dragon War.

Legacy of the Dragonguard -> Dragonknights get their powers from Akaviri traditions.

Children of the Sky – amusingly the oldest game-wise of the three – shows these two things don't contradict, they're the same or close enough to be interchangeable.

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Here's a simple one. We know that it takes, "years," for a non-Dragonborn to learn each word of a shout. Each shout is comprised of three words.

Let's be generous, and say that "years," literally means two, (though it is probably much higher).

Let's also assume that there's no diminishing returns. That is to say, for a non-dragonborn to learn the second word requires no more effort than the first, and the third is equally easy. And learning additional shouts also impart no additional learning time. Again, all of the information we have from timelines with Skryim suggest this isn't the case, but for the sake of argument, let's give your theory all the possible support we can.

Dragon Knights have three skill lines. Each skill line consists of five normal abilities and an ultimate. In a normal 1-50 playthrough, it's entirely likely that you'll purchase all of these and morph them. Assuming you do not deliberately choose to ignore an ability or two along the way.

Let's also assume that a character can start learning shouts at age 7. This doesn't seem reasonable to me, but we have to pick an age somewhere, and in your favor, let's go as low as reasonably possible.

Finally, because purchasing skills is not gated beyond simply advancing that skill line far enough, let's assume your character already knows how to execute those abilities and has simply lost the capacity to do so... somehow.

So, six times three is eighteen, times three (words) is fifty-four. Add seven years, and your minimum age for a Dragon Knight is sixty-one. They can get a full four years of adventuring in before they need to retire.

First, two years on average may actually be a bit high - Ulfric picked up two Shouts in less than ten years. And Gormlaith Golden-Hilt and Hakon One-Eye – about how old would you say they were? They can't be older than forty when we see them in the past; there's a skin texture setting for age forty and age fifty in the CK and neither of them has either.

Nor does Delphine, as I recall, and she's 50. Granted, she's also a Breton. And all female Bretons in Skyrim have those stupid forehead wrinkles, but still.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

And each of them knows six Shouts. Even assuming they got picked up by Paarthurnax for training at age 7 (which I agree is low) – still averages lower than two years per word.

Even if we use those numbers without reservation, they could still be as young as 43, with only six shouts. Except, that's not right.

There's an error here, and I'm kind of surprised you made it while referencing their UESP pages. Gormlaith, and Hakon only know five shouts, one of which is Dragonrend, which, as you've pointed out, they didn't learn. Meaning that (if we ignore Dragonrend, and call it a special case), they could be as young as 31, using those numbers. Felldir ties with Arngeir at six shouts.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

(And before you protest that they had however-many odd years in Sovngarde to study: I checked the Creation Kit for that too. Past! Gormlaith and Hakon know the same Shouts as Sovngarde! Gormlaith and Hakon. Still six Shouts.)

You're also assuming that each new word or new Shout is the same or greater effort to learn as the first; you aren't taking into consideration that it might be easier, having heard some of the language already and gotten the hang of it at least once before, to do the same thing but with a different word.

This seems somewhat unlikely. Given that the non-verbal Greybeards only know eight shouts each.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

But, wait, it gets better. Because we know, for a fact, that your shouty adventuring hero can't talk. That part has been very clearly illustrated in Skyrim. By the time you've learned all the requisite shouts, your character's voice would have become so powerful, they literally cannot speak, without resorting to the Thu'um. It's not entirely clear why this is the case, but it is what we see at High Hrothgar.

Did you not talk to Arngeir at all? Because he speaks normally with perfect ease. And he's supposed to be the most powerful of the human Greybeards. Ulfric and the Ebony Warrior are also both capable of perfectly normal speech.

Arngeir (and Felldir, for that matter) put a concrete threshold on when one loses the ability to communicate normally, as a normal human. Non-Dragonborn Characters who know up to six shouts can speak normally. Non-Dragonborn who know eight or more cannot. Borri, Wulfgar, and Einarth all have eight shouts, which they will use in combat, if you provoke them. Borri's actually a special case because his AI package (and character sheet) only have eight shouts, but he will use a ninth (clear skies) as part of his scripted routine.

Ulfric and the Ebony Warrior only have two shouts each. This is, pretty well established as an entirely safe quantity. It's not entirely clear what's going on with the Ebony Warrior. He's clearly someone, we just don't know who (or what).

I should probably clarify a little, The Ebony Warrior is the only non-dragonborn we encounter who can shout that is not a Nord. This is part of why the theory about him actually being Ebonarm, or some other supernatural testing force, is credible without further evidence. Something weird is going on here, and no one seems to know exactly what.

One thing pretty much every source on the Thu'um agrees on, you don't lose the ability to speak on your first shout, it's somewhere down the line that you're unable to speak normally. (Somewhere around seven or eight shouts.)

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

That entire line of reasoning doesn't mean they were actually able to though. The kiai might have been as close to a true Dragon Shout as they were able to get, while still not actually being one.

Except that recall Children of the Sky is using the Akaviri kiai to describe what the Nords are doing, and Ardent Flame: Draconic or Endemic? specifically references Dragonknight abilities as being 'dragon magic handed down from those mighty warriors who fought and won a war with the dragons back before the First Era'.

(Now, if you know of another Dragon War other than the one with Felldir and friends, please link it for me – I freely admit to very little knowledge of most of the very old games, I'm sure there have been interviews I missed, etc.)

The breakdown is like this:

Ardent Flame: Draconic or Endemic? -> Dragonknights get their powers from the people who won the Dragon War.

Legacy of the Dragonguard -> Dragonknights get their powers from Akaviri traditions.

Children of the Sky – amusingly the oldest game-wise of the three – shows these two things don't contradict, they're the same or close enough to be interchangeable.

I can't believe I still need to explain this one. Children of the Sky uses something called a simile. This is a rhetorical device to explain a concept or item to someone who has no frame of reference by likening it to something they're familiar with.

For example, "a sea plane is like a boat, they both go on the water." This does not mean a boat can fly simply because a sea plane can.

In this case, the line in question is:

The power of a Nord can be articulated into a shout, like the kiai of an Akaviri swordsman.

The word "like" here is intended to indicate a simile. The Nords shout, and this is similar to the Akaviri crying out like demented seagulls, when they use their magic. It's phrased this way because it is more likely the reader is familiar with the Akaviri yelling, and can use that as a frame of reference to understand what the Nords are doing. (And, yes, this is part of why I made a point about The Ebony Warrior earlier.)

Now, I do agree with you on two things. The Dragon Knights are, almost certainly, using Akaviri magical traditions. No question to that at all. It's even explicitly stated in their class bio.

Second, the Akaviri magical traditions are intended to be imitations of the dragons. The Akaviri are incredible fanboys when it comes to the dragons, and everything associated with them. They named their continent after them, they use them as their banners (the Imperial icon from the Third and Fourth era is supposed to be Akaviri, btw.) The Tsaecci want to eat a Dragon and become one. The Ka'po'tun want to become one as well.

With all of that understood, it's not much of a leap to say they desperately want their magic to be draconic. They want to dragon shout so badly. Because they can't, either because they don't have the capacity to do so, or because the dragons won't teach them. Either way, they were sent to sulk in their room, and eventually came back out with their new Dragon fanfic, magical, martial arts. That's what you can use as a DK. You can yell like a moose with its head stuck in a tree, and turn on your "dragon," themed powers, that have nothing to do with actual dragons, but hey, they sounded cool and dragon-like, right?

starkerealm

Incidentally, if we take Ulfric very literally, and say it took him a day or two shy of 10 years to learn two shouts, we get a time per word of around 20 months each. Or 1 year and 8 months each. Yeah, when you're stacking shouts up that will become significant over time (a full year's difference between learning all three words of a shout), but the general purpose here is to remember the time commitment is non-trivial. Though, ironically, it does make it easier to spitball time spent learning.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

starkerealm wrote: »

There's an error here, and I'm kind of surprised you made it while referencing their UESP pages. Gormlaith, and Hakon only know five shouts, one of which is Dragonrend, which, as you've pointed out, they didn't learn. Meaning that (if we ignore Dragonrend, and call it a special case), they could be as young as 31, using those numbers. Felldir ties with Arngeir at six shouts.

*double checks* Ah yes, #6 was the Nord Battle cry; my bad.

starkerealm wrote: »

This seems somewhat unlikely. Given that the non-verbal Greybeards only know eight shouts each.

Master Borri also knows at least one word of another; 'Bex' for the door-opening Shout. So the number of Shouts listed is not the sum total of all the Shouts they know and the real number is unknown.

You're also giving the old Tongues credit for making and mastering Dragonrend almost instantly; if they can really, really, understand mortality well enough to weaponize it into a Shout that quickly, there's nothing stopping them or someone else from really, really, understanding fire or ice enough to do the same. As that's unlikely, you should not be omitting it.

In short, you're making lots of assumptions here; in particular your idea of a 'safe' number of Shouts is purely your own invention. But just for the sake of argument pretending it's true, you're also assuming that this theoretical threshold would be exactly the same for all mortals. And claiming that is like saying that every human will be drunk after three servings of alcohol. I can't blame you too much; you don't have a lot of concrete data to work with, but you're trying to make a mathematical equation to prove your point when most of your numbers are made up or wrong, thus your results prove nothing.

Arngeir keeps going on about not letting your power outstrip your wisdom; I'd be more inclined to believe the other three didn't stick to that advice at one point while Arngeir did, and that's why they can't talk and he can. Or maybe they just haven't done some facet of Greybeard training that Arngeir did.

starkerealm wrote: »

I can't believe I still need to explain this one. Children of the Sky uses something called a simile.

First, you apparently don't know what simile means. It's for comparing two things that are NOT alike.

Second, once again you're skipping the second relevant line, 'When the leader lets it out in a kiai, the doors are blown in, and the axemen rush into the city.' The Nord leader is using the Akaviri term. And the person writing all this knows enough about the Thu'um to accurately describe a number of the effects thereof.

starkerealm wrote: »

The Akaviri are incredible fanboys when it comes to the dragons, and everything associated with them.

You missed the bits where they're been enslaving and eradicating them, didn't you?

starkerealm wrote: »

With all of that understood, it's not much of a leap to say they desperately want their magic to be draconic. They want to dragon shout so badly. Because they can't, either because they don't have the capacity to do so, or because the dragons won't teach them.

You have absolutely no proof that they can't Shout, and again, they were enslaving the dragons, in addition to wiping them out. We know the dragons can be bargained with; Brarilu Theran did so. 'Teach me this Shout or I get the whip out' is a distinct possibility. Or, 'we promise to leave you alone for X amount of time if you teach us this Shout.' And again, the dragons are SHOUTING their magic; you can hear it from great distances, it has obvious repeatable effects, and they use the words in normal conversation. It does not take any specialized equipment or rare substances that the Akaviri would need to duplicate in order to use the Thu'um. It is not something the dragons could easily keep secret from their enemies if they wanted to, and the general mindset of most dovah suggests they wouldn't want to.

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Second, once again you're skipping the second relevant line, 'When the leader lets it out in a kiai, the doors are blown in, and the axemen rush into the city.' The Nord leader is using the Akaviri term. And the person writing all this knows enough about the Thu'um to accurately describe a number of the effects thereof.

No, the author is using an Akaviri term to describe the Nord combat doctrine. They're not even describing a singular event. They are describing the procedure, as they understand it.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

You have absolutely no proof that they can't Shout...

Actually, I do. They're not Nords. Go back, reread your evidence, see if you can find the problem.

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

You're also giving the old Tongues credit for making and mastering Dragonrend almost instantly...

No. I was giving it to you as a freebie. With the intent of trying to keep their numbers down.

Again, this is the part you keep forgetting, it takes a long time to learn how to shout.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

starkerealm wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

You have absolutely no proof that they can't Shout...

Actually, I do. They're not Nords. Go back, reread your evidence, see if you can find the problem.

By that logic the dragons shouldn't be able to Shout either. Nor should the Ebony Warrior. Nor the Dragonborn unless they were also a Nord. See the problem?

starkerealm wrote: »

No. I was giving it to you as a freebie. With the intent of trying to keep their numbers down.

Again, this is the part you keep forgetting, it takes a long time to learn how to shout.

When you have to omit data to make your numbers work, then your numbers don't work.

notimetocare

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

You have absolutely no proof that they can't Shout...

Actually, I do. They're not Nords. Go back, reread your evidence, see if you can find the problem.

By that logic the dragons shouldn't be able to Shout either. Nor should the Ebony Warrior. Nor the Dragonborn unless they were also a Nord. See the problem?

starkerealm wrote: »

No. I was giving it to you as a freebie. With the intent of trying to keep their numbers down.

Again, this is the part you keep forgetting, it takes a long time to learn how to shout.

When you have to omit data to make your numbers work, then your numbers don't work.

Nord vs nord heritage. The dragonborn of sKyrim (and toss in the septim dynasty) can easily have nord blood. Tiber Septim was a nord. Any dragonborn descendants would be of nord blood.

The Ebony Warrior is an abberation, what he truly is is likely unknown (despite ingame characteristics)

When you have to stretch the worlds logic to fit your fantasy you prove DKs dont use Thuum. Will you seriously give up? lol