Necromancer. This should be a thing.

DeathHouseInc

It should be it's own sort of faction (kind of like not part of any faction but itself, but even other necromancer's don't always get along, think a dog eat dog world for those of us that would like to try that out) and despised and rejected by all others. You could have necro only guilds, but they would also still be able to attack each other if they so choose. It should be allowed to attack all factions and all factions should be able to attack it. It doesn't need as broad of a starter quest area or story line as the initial ones. It should be totally voluntary to join the outcasts, but anyone should be able to choose to join. The downsides would be great. You could never ever change back and will always be forsaken. Most people would hate you and PvP might actually be a thing in this game...

I feel the game is very close to being awesomely balanced and I would love to see something like this in the future as well as a focus on bringing new spells and ways to make new creative BALANCED builds.

I don't need these other people. Please let them try to kill me.

Cool ideas welcome

SlayerSyrena

Ohhh, the Necromancer not belonging to the main 3 factions is really thinking outside the box. I like it! Perhaps their faction can be The Worm Cult. Instead of going through the main story, there is a unique main story for them that involves joining the Cult, perhaps first being assigned to a low ranking cultist like the vampire, Aldimion, then Tharn, and then Mannimarco himself. Your quests can be anything from defending a newly built anchor to commanding Molag Bal's undead minions on the battlefield.

Hey, one can dream.

DeathHouseInc

Haha yes ^ I think the ideas that can come from this would be awesome in game. You have negatives to joining, but also positives that benefit your play style. The story lines and archs are limitless....They also fit right in line with the lore. No one likes the necro's but only some necro's and even within the necro's they don't like each other most of the time. Hell it could be it's own awesome major expansion. It would be self containing from the negatives of joining. A lot of people in MMO's seem to not like this play style so it would always stay as it was meant to be both lore and play style wise as outcast...However a lot of people DO enjoy this play style and the game offers them almost nothing so get out there and make more $$$ Zenimax...

I think it's an awesome way to allow those of us that enjoy unfettered PvP and real politics in MMO's to have some sort of game play style that is somewhat close to that without being damaging to other people's play style's and preferences.

There is nothing set in stone here this is just a brainstorming idea thread so if you don't like an aspect to it and want to post about that I would also like that person to see if they can figure out a way to ameliorate their issue.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

Then they wouldn't be permitted to do the main quest? Or maybe they should have their own opposite main quest. But overall, why should necromancers have all of this when neither Warewolves nor Vampires do?

WW and Vamp were excellent opportunities to monetize for ZOS. Epic fail.

mb10

1) Necromancy is illegal in the time period of ESO

2) we've already had a class of "companions" in the warden and it's absolutely trash as far as I'm concerned

3) The molag bal and mannimarco saga has been finished for almost 2 years now

idk

classes have nothing to do with the alliances. Only race.

ParaNostram

I don't care what form it takes, I just want my freakin' necromancy.

DeathHouseInc

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Then they wouldn't be permitted to do the main quest? Or maybe they should have their own opposite main quest. But overall, why should necromancers have all of this when neither Warewolves nor Vampires do?

WW and Vamp were excellent opportunities to monetize for ZOS. Epic fail.

Just thinking of a way to go around this issue...Perhaps you could not just start out as a necromancer yeah? Not everyone is born bad some just break that way But I do think you could also do both where yeah if you want to start out as a necro and it doesn't make sense at all for the starter story then you could not participate in it you would be an after the fact necro...But if you wanted to stat normal and make the decision to jump ship some day you could do this as well.

DeathHouseInc

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

classes have nothing to do with the alliances. Only race.

It's a class for sure with a great list of new skills and abilities, but is no part of any faction. They are hated by all, but some get along with each other if they so freely choose.

Perhaps make it to where they could only go to major cities in disguise. They can always go to their own little capital but not freely to others without risking attack by all.

DeathHouseInc

mb10 wrote: »

1) Necromancy is illegal in the time period of ESO

2) we've already had a class of "companions" in the warden and it's absolutely trash as far as I'm concerned

3) The molag bal and mannimarco saga has been finished for almost 2 years now

Illegal yes but people still do it right? That specific story line has been finished of course, but all throughout all of ESO games which I have played from start there has been necros despised by all. I see no reason there still can't be...Don't ruin the story for me I haven't done it, but I can't fathom that Zenimax wrote a story line where necros were completely done in and their magics and skills made completely null and void for eternity? That would be dumb...and even if there were this is creativity and imagination why not a way for it to come back into the fray somehow, someway?

1. I am thinking outside of the box yes, but for sure still well within the box....
2. Thank you for everyone's posts so far. Both criticism and adoration help form ideas
3. 103 views and I posted this at the wee AM hours of EST...There is obviously a big interest in this and I hope this thread takes off

Vercingetorix

ZoS has already proven TWICE that it sucks at designing pet-based combat. Both Sorcerers and Wardens suffer needlessly with inept pathing, pulling agro prematurely, and (in the Warden's case) lacks an effective taunt & tank.

Warden was supposed to be the "pet class", but ZoS royally f***ed up. The bear is an ultimate, yet has no tank/taunt morph. The bear's "ultimate" is a joke as the mob it attempts to hit simply sidesteps the attack (because the bear is slow AF) and the ultimate is wasted. If players are expected to essentially give up their ultimate slot, then the damn bear should be the best pet in the game - and it isn't, not even close - the CLANNFEAR is a better pet than the stupid bear...

Necromancer requires skeleton and zombie pets in some capacity. ZoS will just screw this up, too. Why ask them to waste time on content that will just end up being half-baked and mediocre at best? ZoS should be focusing on fixing the problems they introduced with Homestead and Morrowind:
- increased server instability due to the server load due to having to manage 1000's of housing instances
- unwanted "balance" changes that have ruined the game due to combat being a chore, along with an end of build diversity

DeathHouseInc

mb10 wrote: »

Why ask them to waste time on content that will just end up being half-baked and mediocre at best? ZoS should be focusing on fixing the problems they introduced with Homestead and Morrowind:
- increased server instability due to the server load due to having to manage 1000's of housing instances
- unwanted "balance" changes that have ruined the game due to combat being a chore, along with an end of build diversity

I agree there are issues and there will always be balancing issues to some extent, but I never said they should focus on this right here right now. I agree they have some things to sort out with pets and server stuff. But to be honest, damn the game is really well balanced considering the scope and most certainly when comparing it to the majority off MMO's I have played for the past 18 years.

Perhaps you missed this part or overlooked it, but thank you for bringing these points up as well:

DeathHouseInc wrote: »

I feel the game is very close to being awesomely balanced and I would love to see something like this in the future as well as a focus on bringing new spells and ways to make new creative BALANCED builds.

So I agree get the basic balancing and hiccups out of the way before adding new content, but yeah they really need to add new content at some point in the future. I feel something this cool could be done in a year or two if they start panning now, not focus, not actually making, just planning and discussion.

Vanthras79

mb10 wrote: »

1) Necromancy is illegal in the time period of ESO

2) we've already had a class of "companions" in the warden and it's absolutely trash as far as I'm concerned

3) The molag bal and mannimarco saga has been finished for almost 2 years now

1. Not in Cyrodiil. Also, why does the DC have necromancers in their ranks? (Stonefalls and Bleakrock questlines). I also believe that the Ebonheart pact has necromancers in their ranks as well (I forget which zones (maybe a Malabal Tor delve).
2. that comment on a class of "companions" is totally subjective.
3. We know Mannimarco comes back to Nirn (Daggerfall and Oblivion both have him in there), and besides he has a large scale war with the mages guild in the lore based in the second era. Did ZOS overlook this?
4. It could be the next class introduced for the next chapter.

In the end, it is up to ZOS what to implement. Ima just tag Wrobes. @Wrobel

DeathHouseInc

Vanthras79 wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

4. It could be the next class introduced for the next chapter.

Smiling ear to ear

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

DeathHouseInc wrote: »

103 views and I posted this at the wee AM hours of EST...There is obviously a big interest in this and I hope this thread takes off

Don't et too excited. I was hitting F5 like hell...

SydneyGrey

I took this screenshot yesterday. This is the mage's guild in Vulkhel Guard, where there is a teacher talking to her class. She's explaining to her students why she doesn't allow necromancy in her classroom. Her words strongly imply that some mages want her to teach necromancy, but she personally finds it icky. If people pay attention in the game, you can see a lot of examples where a lot of NPCs are ok with necromancy, but it's usually frowned on.

Heck, in the E.P. main questline, they discover that the invading army (which I believe is Daggerfall in that case) is raising dead soldiers as zombies to fight in the war, so apparently necromancy is used during wartime by some factions.

AnviOfVai

Wow, I have always wanted to play as a necromancer, I always love stories that allow you to play the "darkside" I don't mind being molag bal's trusty servant !

idk

ParaNostram wrote: »

I don't care what form it takes, I just want my freakin' necromancy.

I was speaking to the point OP made about lack of alliance since class is not alliance based. However, . . .

@mb10 brought up the solid point that Nirn does not really like necromancy during the time of ESO.

DeathHouseInc

SydneyGrey wrote: »

I took this screenshot yesterday. This is the mage's guild in Vulkhel Guard, where there is a teacher talking to her class. She's explaining to her students why she doesn't allow necromancy in her classroom. Her words strongly imply that some mages want her to teach necromancy, but she personally finds it icky. If people pay attention in the game, you can see a lot of examples where a lot of NPCs are ok with necromancy, but it's usually frowned on.

Heck, in the E.P. main questline, they discover that the invading army (which I believe is Daggerfall in that case) is raising dead soldiers as zombies to fight in the war, so apparently necromancy is used during wartime by some factions.

I have read and seen the same things too. The funny thing is this is not at all new to the series...I feel people are a little pigeon holed into just this expansion of the game and they don't use creativity, they just speak in absolutes when this is a fantasy game spurned by creative writing and story telling. Anything is possible, and anything can happen. I don't think allowing people to go this path at all disrupts the lore or ruins any part of the game if done right. It will expand the game. It will provide a few things that NO other game currently provides. This genre has shut out a massive audience that used to exist that no other game caters to at all. Even if this isn't to ones own interest this would be great for the game as a whole. I don't want this to be a solely PvP focus, although it does have some elements, but I do want it to be a boon to it.

Perhaps do a tiered conversion phase where everyone could enjoy the full necro story without pvp, but once you are full necro there is no return to society. You are necro and part of that 'cult' only. If you forsake necro at the end of the story line then you lose access to the skill line, but if you accept you are always a necro. You still have access to your base skill line, but you lose your faction and many of the benefits of being one. You can still go into to town and do certain things, but you must do so in a disguise and to hurt anyone else is to lose the disguise and expose yourself (maybe this sentence is too limiting maybe not just random ruminations to make people think). Also perhaps some element of guards being able to recognize you and Undaunted quest where Necro's have bounties placed on their heads and it is up to the factions to collect on these bounties should they so choose to Comon...the ideas and possibilities would be awesome for everyone and the benefits would be to the game as a whole.

Necromancy has for the most part always been a apart of ESO. It is a great part of the ESO story and so is conflict and strife.

History[edit]

Although reanimating the dead has been practiced in some form since before the advent of written history, most of the earliest laws regarding necromancy banned it upon pain of death. It was banned by the Psijic Order, who considered it both dangerous and heretical. Later, the Mages Guild would also ban the practice. This ban technically remained in place for the Guild's entire history, though some archmagisters of the Guild over the years were satisfied with ignoring it, while others were even suspected of practicing it in secret.[1] And regardless, various independent mages have explored necromancy throughout history.


Mannimarco (Oblivion)
The Dark Practice as it is known today started with one elf: Mannimarco, the King of Worms. He considered most necromancers to be "fools and weaklings", and only lauded the abilities of his servants: the Order of the Black Worm. The only obstacle he feared was Arkay. Arkay's blessings serve to inhibit and thwart necromantic perversions, particularly Arkay's Law, which provides a corpse with unwavering protection from reanimation when it is bestowed properly via a ritual performed by followers of Arkay. Mannimarco directed his followers to undermine Arkay at every opportunity, hoping to one day eradicate his influence altogether.[27][28][nb 4]
Mannimarco and Vanus Galerion met in the early years of the Second Era, when they were students of the Psijic Order.[29] They became bitter enemies when Mannimarco began to raise and manipulate the dead, which Galerion and the Order condemned, resulting in Mannimarco's expulsion. Mannimarco went to mainland Tamriel, where he began forming the Order of the Black Worm. It's suspected that the rise of necromancy throughout the continent is one reason why Galerion was allowed to form the Mages Guild in the first place. As Mannimarco spread his influence, so did Galerion, and the rivalry between the two former Psijics culminated in a battle near Ceporah Tower between Galerion's followers and Mannimarco's followers and their legions of undead. At the end, Mannimarco and Galerion were both thought to be dead, but Galerion's forces claimed victory that day. But it proved to be a pyrrhic victory, as Mannimarco had transformed himself into an immortal lich.[30][31] And as a final disgrace to his rival, he had purportedly made Galerion his thrall.[26]
Though they would disappear for decades at a time, Mannimarco and his followers inevitably returned to plague the Mages Guild and Tamriel with many nefarious plots for centuries to come. Their influence over the evolution of the arcane arts was considered pervasive.[32] Galerion suspected that the Order was responsible for soul trapping, a subset of necromancy, becoming a commonplace practice among mages across the continent.[33] Officials in various locales have proven susceptible to turning blind eyes out of fear or greed.[20] Mannimarco was reportedly killed at the end of the Third Era,[26] though his followers believed that he had actually achieved divinity, and could not truly die.[34] Regardless, necromancy has certainly lived on.

Comon Zenimax send the game at some point to a dark dark place....and not E is for everyone place....Provide 3 major things that no other MMO does right now, the most FFA pvp available, a dark, dark, sinister, story line that you want the lights on to play, and cater to both young and old audiences with a serious story. Not even consoles have this...doom?...yeah you guys can do better.

Or not you know just carebear and give us necros with a story line and some limitations...but yeah my pvp components would be awesome imo and much needed.

DeathHouseInc

Another cool idea:

Have it to where the necros capital city can be raided by the factions. Maybe it is a molag bal hide away or manimarcos realm creation, before whatever happened to him happened. It is separate, but accessible by all in some form. You are the scourge of all civilized society and there are prices to pay for your power and deeds...

This could be a really cool new raid type where your opponents are either a mix of players and monsters (perhaps a GM as we used to call them played a Molag bal type boss while necor players help fight and defeat the incursion) or perhaps just players and a randomly picked player gets to be the 'boss' and gains all his skills and likeness temporarily.

The possibilities are endless you could add entire dungeons based around this idea...bring AI to a whole new level. Not encompassing the whole game just part of it.

Tasear

SlayerSyrena wrote: »

Ohhh, the Necromancer not belonging to the main 3 factions is really thinking outside the box. I like it! Perhaps their faction can be The Worm Cult. Instead of going through the main story, there is a unique main story for them that involves joining the Cult, perhaps first being assigned to a low ranking cultist like the vampire, Aldimion, then Tharn, and then Mannimarco himself. Your quests can be anything from defending a newly built anchor to commanding Molag Bal's undead minions on the battlefield.

Hey, one can dream.

@ZOS_GinaBruno ... expansion... everyone would love a go at the dark side

Edit

Throw in some werewolves, and vampires quests or dlc. Maybe also this were they learn the art of hiding from NPCs. Also adjust the world so fighter guild members attack them if discovered.

Tasear

Back on topic it would be cool if they had to raise thier summons and if the die poof time to start over or lost lots of xp fro. Summon.

SilverIce58

mb10 wrote: »

1) Necromancy is illegal in the time period of ESO

2) we've already had a class of "companions" in the warden and it's absolutely trash as far as I'm concerned

3) The molag bal and mannimarco saga has been finished for almost 2 years now

1) Actually, it's only illegal in the Mages Guild, and banned in Morrowind. Cyrodiil has rarely, if ever, actually made the practice outlawed, and it's certainly legal everywhere else, just not looked upon kindly by many races (bosmer, nords [although the college is favorable on necromancy], bretons, redguards, and dunmer), however, Altmer look on it favorably, Black marsh can't really foster corpses since they decay rather quickly, and khajiits couldnt care less.

2) Sorcs were(are?) also a class of companions and look at how well they're doing.

3) I agree with that point. We should continue the supposed story about a great war involving the Princes.

DeathHouseInc

Tasear wrote: »

Back on topic it would be cool if they had to raise thier summons and if the die poof time to start over or lost lots of xp fro. Summon.

I have actually played this first hand and while it sounds neat it really sucks in practice...Path of Exile does this with many skills and no one uses any of them...I mention this so if zeni wants to take this aspect seriously they can look to PoE for all the flaws and maybe brainstorm how they can be averted.

Having said that I would like to see the necro NOT to be simply a pet based class. I would like to see enough skills in the line to be able to also make sort of a magi range or melee or all. I don't want it pigeon holed. That is not to say skills cant be themed off necroing dead things just not a constant pet base class. IE one skills summon zombies from the ground that do x dot damage over time or burst damage. I don't want a class based simply summoning things to fight for you (leave alot of that to warden and sorc). I want that as an option but not its all encompassing thing. I want a well rounded class. You are forsaking society and I want to encompass all play styles that wish to do this...Just liek I want it to encompass PvE and PvP crowd and there is 0 reason it couldn't.

br0steen

OP I think you have a really creative and cool twist on an idea many have asked for.

However, in NO way shape, form, or conceptual thought is ZOS the right company to implement it. What they put their hands on tends to turns to rust and then you're randomly stuck in a loading screen somehow.

SilverIce58

Vanthras79 wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

1) Necromancy is illegal in the time period of ESO

2) we've already had a class of "companions" in the warden and it's absolutely trash as far as I'm concerned

3) The molag bal and mannimarco saga has been finished for almost 2 years now

1. Not in Cyrodiil. Also, why does the DC have necromancers in their ranks? (Stonefalls and Bleakrock questlines). I also believe that the Ebonheart pact has necromancers in their ranks as well (I forget which zones (maybe a Malabal Tor delve).
2. that comment on a class of "companions" is totally subjective.
3. We know Mannimarco comes back to Nirn (Daggerfall and Oblivion both have him in there), and besides he has a large scale war with the mages guild in the lore based in the second era. Did ZOS overlook this?
4. It could be the next class introduced for the next chapter.

In the end, it is up to ZOS what to implement. Ima just tag Wrobes. @Wrobel

That number 3 is wrong. Mannimarco has 3 known events he's involved in: The Planemeld, The Warp in the West, and The Attack on the Mage's Guild in the 3rd era, during Oblivion, in which the CoC (Champion of Cyrodiil) kills him. Also, according to lore, Mannimarco and Vanus have a final battle which results in Vanus dying and Mannimarco raising him as a thrall.

Vanthras79

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Vanthras79 wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

1) Necromancy is illegal in the time period of ESO

2) we've already had a class of "companions" in the warden and it's absolutely trash as far as I'm concerned

3) The molag bal and mannimarco saga has been finished for almost 2 years now

1. Not in Cyrodiil. Also, why does the DC have necromancers in their ranks? (Stonefalls and Bleakrock questlines). I also believe that the Ebonheart pact has necromancers in their ranks as well (I forget which zones (maybe a Malabal Tor delve).
2. that comment on a class of "companions" is totally subjective.
3. We know Mannimarco comes back to Nirn (Daggerfall and Oblivion both have him in there), and besides he has a large scale war with the mages guild in the lore based in the second era. Did ZOS overlook this?
4. It could be the next class introduced for the next chapter.

In the end, it is up to ZOS what to implement. Ima just tag Wrobes. @Wrobel

That number 3 is wrong. Mannimarco has 3 known events he's involved in: The Planemeld, The Warp in the West, and The Attack on the Mage's Guild in the 3rd era, during Oblivion, in which the CoC (Champion of Cyrodiil) kills him. Also, according to lore, Mannimarco and Vanus have a final battle which results in Vanus dying and Mannimarco raising him as a thrall.

You just mentioned all of the things I placed in response number three. You have not disputed anything I placed in my answer, and said I was wrong? You just proved my assertions to be actually correct. If you believe I was wrong, your answer should be more counter to what I proposed, and not parallel.

Megabear

I'd like to nominate myself as the leader of necromancers.

DeathHouseInc

br0steen wrote: »

OP I think you have a really creative and cool twist on an idea many have asked for.

However, in NO way shape, form, or conceptual thought is ZOS the right company to implement it. What they put their hands on tends to turns to rust and then you're randomly stuck in a loading screen somehow.

HAha I am new to Zenimax for sure. What I can say is I have 18 years of way too much experience in this genre to not be paid and I see a foundation here that could be incredibly awesome for all interests in MMO. Something that no longer exists anywhere in the market. I feel after the upcoming patch the game will be awesomely balanced for an MMO and in the right direction. I am a youngblood to this game so I come with passion and positive thinking.

I hope you are wrong.

So far the few posts that are here are awesome dialogue between members that clearly care for the game. That is a good sign even if the community is jaded for the most part towards the company. Keep your chin up read the coming patch notes and players issues with the current balance of the game...they may have never listened in the past for all I know, but they clearly did this time...Never lose hope and never not give your input even if you feel no one will ever pay mind from the company, the players can make enough clamor to make it a reality.

SilverIce58

Vanthras79 wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Vanthras79 wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

1) Necromancy is illegal in the time period of ESO

2) we've already had a class of "companions" in the warden and it's absolutely trash as far as I'm concerned

3) The molag bal and mannimarco saga has been finished for almost 2 years now

1. Not in Cyrodiil. Also, why does the DC have necromancers in their ranks? (Stonefalls and Bleakrock questlines). I also believe that the Ebonheart pact has necromancers in their ranks as well (I forget which zones (maybe a Malabal Tor delve).
2. that comment on a class of "companions" is totally subjective.
3. We know Mannimarco comes back to Nirn (Daggerfall and Oblivion both have him in there), and besides he has a large scale war with the mages guild in the lore based in the second era. Did ZOS overlook this?
4. It could be the next class introduced for the next chapter.

In the end, it is up to ZOS what to implement. Ima just tag Wrobes. @Wrobel

That number 3 is wrong. Mannimarco has 3 known events he's involved in: The Planemeld, The Warp in the West, and The Attack on the Mage's Guild in the 3rd era, during Oblivion, in which the CoC (Champion of Cyrodiil) kills him. Also, according to lore, Mannimarco and Vanus have a final battle which results in Vanus dying and Mannimarco raising him as a thrall.

You just mentioned all of the things I placed in response number three. You have not disputed anything I placed in my answer, and said I was wrong? You just proved my assertions to be actually correct. If you believe I was wrong, your answer should be more counter to what I proposed, and not parallel.

I meant that you're wrong in the time period. You said Mannimarco has a war in the 2nd era, when it's really the 3rd era. If you look here: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Second_Era Mannimarco's name only shows up during the soulburst, and as we know in game, during the planemeld. Yes while Mannimarco does come back later, it happens a whole era later.

TheShadowScout

DeathHouseInc wrote: »

It should be it's own sort of faction (kind of like not part of any faction but itself, but even other necromancer's don't always get along, think a dog eat dog world for those of us that would like to try that out) and despised and rejected by all others. You could have necro only guilds, but they would also still be able to attack each other if they so choose. It should be allowed to attack all factions and all factions should be able to attack it...

Nah.
Necromancy may be frowned upon, but there is ample evidence for it among the alliances - from the breton general invading Stonefalls to the dunmer mage secretly worshipping Molag Bal and wanting to enslave chimer spirits in the same region, from the occasional dunmer raider in Auridion to a altmer messing with ancestral spirits to make trouble for queen Ayrenn, from rouge necromancers in the alik'r to imperial generals here or there... heck, even every vestige that came far enough dabbled in necromancy at least once by making an flesh atronarch...

mb10 wrote: »

1) Necromancy is illegal in the time period of ESO

2) we've already had a class of "companions" in the warden and it's absolutely trash as far as I'm concerned

3) The molag bal and mannimarco saga has been finished for almost 2 years now

1) So is muder. Dark brotherhood, anyone?
2) So maybe it won't be terribly effective to necromance. So what?
3) And who is to say that with the defeat of Molag Bal all his cultists suddenly go "poof" like a vampire in sunlight? And not cook up some crazy scheme elsewhere for a hero to stop in some "infiltrate the next new cult" themed DLC?

We know already therte are necromancers not aligned with Mannimarco and Molag Bal as well (Grahtwood quests?) There is no lore that prevents the creation of a necromancy themed guild sized DLC someday...

And that's what I think necromancy should be in ESO. Not a new class (blech), but a guild skill line.