Ancient's Grace - Examination and suggested fix

dpencil1

TLDR: Ancient's Grace is not a competitive choice to Willpower as a 3-piece jewelry set. It should be, and can, by increasing its 2-piece bonus to +5% from +4%.

At first glance, players can see the +4% max magicka buff from Ancient's Grace and think, "Awesome! I bet that's a lot." People are already used to putting Inner Light on their bar if they have extra space, and that's +5%, so why wouldn't you want +4% too?

Ok, well first of all, Inner Light isn't just +5%. If you have your Mage's Guild passives unlocked, it's actually +7%, almost double what Ancient's Grace provides.

Secondly, 4% of 40k is only 1600. That's not a huge amount. Now you may say, "but my max magicka is already 50k so I'll get 2k from +4%." Not so fast! Because the percentage bonus is additive to other bonuses, that means it's only 4% of your BASE max magicka before any other % bonuses are considered. So that 10% high elf racial passive, that 6% from wearing 5-1-1, or things like Inner Light or Bound Aegis, none of it counts towards the amount that gets the +4%.

So lets take a best case scenario for max magicka:
5 Necropotence, 2 mismatched magicka monster set pieces, Master's staff, Mage mundus with 7 divines, blue health/magicka food.

We'll also consider these bonuses in light of the HotR update...

Base max magicka with 64 attribute points = 15062
1096 x 6 (3 from Necro, 2 from Monsters, 1 from Ancient's Grace) = 6576
4000 (Necro with pet)
868 x 3 (big piece enchants) = 2604
351 x 4 (small piece enchants) = 1404
870 × 3 (gold jewelry enchants) = 2610
1032 (Master's Staff)

100 CP in the Blue Tree: This applies a multiplier to the above stats, roughly between 16-16.5%. The % increases, the more magicka you have. The Mundus and food buffs are NOT augmented by this CP bonus. It is also not effected by other % modifiers.

3092 (Mage mundus with 7 divines)
4936 (blue food)

15062 + 6576 + 4000 + 2604 + 1404 + 2610 + 1032 = 33288
33288 x 1.165 = 38780
38780 + 3092 + 4936 = 46808

Doing pretty much everything you can to stack max magicka, you end up with 46808 magicka that can be boosted by the +4%. So the max bonus you could ever reasonably get would be 1872.

Now let's add up our other % bonuses:
10% for high elf passive
6% for Undaunted
7% for Inner Light
8% for Bound Aegis
2% for Shooting Star
That's 33% added together
46808 x 1.33 = 62254 (without the +4%)
Adding the +4% gets us to +37%
46808 x 1.37 = 64126
64126 - 62254 = 1872 added, like we expected.

Now let's compare this to Willpower. We are looking at Gold Ancient's Grace vs. Purple Willpower (since Gold Willpower is not available)
840 × 3 = 2520 (from Arcane trait)
1400 magicka
186 spell damage

On a character with 2005 spell damage, the 3-piece bonus of Willpower actually adds 201 spell damage, while using Major Sorcery increases the bonus to 239. For argument's sake, let's round down our average spell damage from this bonus to 230. We can multiply this by 10.5 to see it relative to max magicka:
230 × 10.5 = 2415

So if we consider all of the benefit from Willpower in terms of max magicka:
2520 + 1400 + (2415) = 6335
The actual value of magicka gained would be 3920, but the damage increase would be equivalent to gaining 6335 magicka.

And this is what we got for the best case scenario of Ancient's Grace:
870 × 3 = 2610
1096 from the 2-piece bonus
+4% (reasonable maximum of 1872)
2610 + 1096 + 1872 = 5578

On a build that is not just stacking max magicka, but achieving more of a balance, a base magicka of around 35k is more likely. This would provide a bonus of 1400.
2610 + 1096 + 1400 = 5106

So, while the max magicka is indeed higher in Ancient's Grace, the actual damage potential is quite a bit lower, partly because spell damage bonuses can be amplified while % bonuses cannot.

SUGGESTION:
To make Ancient's Grace more competitive with Willpower, the % bonus should be increased to 5%.

Let's look at the Ancient's Grace numbers again with a 5% increase:
2610 + 1096 + 2340 = 6046 (with 46808 magicka build)
2610 + 1096 + 1750 = 5456 (with 35k magicka build)

These number are still below Willpower's 6335, but are much closer, and because max resources also help with sustain and shield size (which spell damage doesn't) it's reasonable that a set that only boosts max magicka should not overtake one that mixes max magicka and spell damage. A substantial bonus also incentivizes building into max magicka to gain more benefit from it, as opposed to using a set with raw stats. My argument is that the gulf between Willpower and Ancient's Grace in terms of wholestic effectiveness is too wide, and can be brought to a more balanced place by increasing Ancient's Grace to +5%.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

IcyDeadPeople

Yes, Ancient's Grace could use a buff!

And I don't know exactly why, but not only spell damage but also my Max Magicka is higher with Willpower set.

I think what is happening is that the max magicka buff on Willpower jewelry stacks with some other max magicka buffs, but Grace of the Ancients ignores these buffs and looks only at the base magicka stat when it adds 4%.

Beardimus

Nice work, and agreed. It should appeal for the pure Magika sticking builds.

Likewise its not like will power is even rare anymore. It's handed out like sweets (which sucks as having a purpose to Imp.City was cool

Vaoh

I'm buying the Ancient Grace gold jewelry from the vendor in hopes that it will be buffed eventually.

A buff to 5% or even 6% would be nice. The current 4% increase is just too low to care.

Ancient Grace should ideally be made (in gold-quality) on average as strong as Willpower in gold-quality. The difference would be that one increases both Max Magicka and Spell Damage, while the other increases only Max Magicka.

dpencil1

Yeah, i'm in the same boat @Vaoh I'm picking up Ancient's Grace this weekend as well, which is what prompted me to really crunch the numbers on it. Hopefully this thread gets some visibility by the devs. I certainly wouldn't complain for a 6% increase, but I didn't want to come off as too greedy.

NordSwordnBoard

A while back I spent some time getting purple GotA from the town vendor only to be disappointed after putting it on.

It sits in the bank, waiting to jump on the buffwagon if it ever rolls by...

Megabear

Vaoh wrote: »

I'm buying the Ancient Grace gold jewelry from the vendor in hopes that it will be buffed eventually.

A buff to 5% or even 6% would be nice. The current 4% increase is just too low to care.

Ancient Grace should ideally be made (in gold-quality) on average as strong as Willpower in gold-quality. The difference would be that one increases both Max Magicka and Spell Damage, while the other increases only Max Magicka.

Probably a safe bet, I bet it'll get buffed. The question is when.

Destyran

Think thos is wrong seen my mates mag warden with 55k mag with ancient grace.

dpencil1

@Destyran
Did you read the OP? I said that Ancient's Grace gives more max magicka. The problem is that the extra magicka is just a little more than the 2-piece Willpower's 1400. And then on top of that, you have the 186 spell damage bonus on the 3-piece, which gets further amplification. Your guild mate may have had a little more magicka, but he would not be hitting nearly as hard.

LMar

If the set is getting the same buff as the rest of the gear (excluding willpower ) it could potentially be better than it

Emma_Overload

This has already been discussed a few weeks ago, and ZOS doesn't care.

dpencil1

@LMar
I accounted for the 2-piece getting buffed in my calculations. It's only about 100 more magicka added from live, so no significant improvement.

@Emma_Overload
They only specifically said Willpower is not getting buffed. I wouldn't expect Ancient's Grace to get buffed in this update, but maybe in Update 16, if they look into it and agree with my assessment.

PlautisCarvain

This set is very good for pet sorc build tho

dpencil1

@PlautisCarvain
Sure. Shields and pets see a benefit from Ancient's Grace over Willpower, but you'd be losing power everywhere else, so your net effectiveness will be lower even on a dedicated pet build.

Lord_Hev

3 gold Shadow dancer jewelry(2 magic bonus) gives more max magic then ancient grace.

Ancient grace needs to calculate the 4% properly, that's the only buff it needs

dpencil1

@Lord_Hev
That is true only if your magicka before % amps is below 25k. But even if Ancient's Grace were multiplicative, that would only boost its contribution by about 500 more magicka in a max magicka dedicated build.

It needs a full 1% boost at least. If you disagree, please back up your assertion with math, and if you think it's bugged, please provide screenshots.

Lord_Hev

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Lord_Hev
That is true only if your magicka before % amps is below 25k. But even if Ancient's Grace were multiplicative, that would only boost its contribution by about 500 more magicka in a max magicka dedicated build.

It needs a full 1% boost at least. If you disagree, please back up your assertion with math, and if you think it's bugged, please provide screenshots.

967 + 967 = 1934. That 1934 gets calculated with all the max magic % stacking. The 3pc of ancient grace does not.


Even if you buff the %, it's still going to just barely surpass a simple double magic bonus stack on your jewelry. The % needs to be calculated correctly, rather then only calculate off your base magic before all buffs.

dpencil1

@Lord_Hev
Ancient's Grace also has a 967 magicka bonus on its 2-piece, so those cancel each other out. Let's say your remaining 967 gets amplified by 33%. That's 1286. That's equivalent to 4% of about 32k. So if you have more than 32k, not considering percent amps, AND have +33% max magicka from passives and skills, then Ancient's Grace does more. If you don't have any amps, Ancient's Grace is better anywhere above 25k base magicka.

As I noted in the OP, although about 44k is the highest reasonable base max magicka to expect, something like 35k is probably more likely for more balanced builds, so you're not very far off, but it does depend heavily on how invested a build is in max magicka bonuses.

Gothren

thx for sharing your calculations. well done.

Lord_Hev

On my max magic DW sorc build. Ancient grace and 3pc gold Shadow Dancer jewelry give almost identical end result. I think ancient grace gives like 40 or so teeny extra magic in comparison. Gold ancient grace might be 100 more magic.

Barbaran

not all sets are created equal.
if willpower is better, use willpower

dpencil1

@Lord_Hev
Well then it's likely you have around 32k max magicka before % amps. We can do the math together if you want. Just list your actual max magicka and then anything that amps it by a % like racial passive, Undaunted passive, skills, etc.

@Barbardin
I really want to respond sarcastically, but I'll try to take your comment seriously. If we apply your logic consistently, ZOS shouldn't ever try to balance skills, sets, or classes. Let the OP stuff stay OP and the trash stuff stay trash and never ask questions. Just shut up, use the OP stuff, and pretend the trash stuff was never even put in the game. Can you see what a horrible sentiment this is?? I am trying to bring attention to one of many areas where serious imbalance exists in this game. I'm not suggesting that Ancient's Grace be made the new OP and Willpower the new trash, but that they may come closer together in terms of net effectiveness. This opens up more viable options for player builds, which I hope you can recognize is a good thing. Just...please stop and think about the implications of what you say before shooting off quips like that.

Vaoh

Barbaran wrote: »

not all sets are created equal.
if willpower is better, use willpower

^this type of comment is the reason there's a downvote button on certain Forums (he may just be a troll, I hope)

anfmofo

It seems a little inconsistent for a gold 3 piece bonus to be weaker than a purple 3 piece. I think also the Destruction Mastery set gives slightly less than willpower and that is a five piece set. I may be wrong though, I tested that ages ago. I have had the arcane set for ages but never really found a place for it.

dpencil1

@anfmofo
Yes, indeed. If Gold Willpower existed in game then Ancient's Grace would need to be buffed even further to be competitive with it. And there are indeed many other gear sets that could use a balance pass as well. It's encouraging to see what ZOS is doing with HotR for balance. Hopefully they keep it up going into Update 16.

Malacthulhu

They will nerf willpower now but, thats ok lol. It would be nice if ancients absorbed 4% of magic for any spell cast within 8m of you by foe or ally. Just turn it into a sustain set.

Baconlad

How about 4% magick and 4% recovery? Or just a flat 2k magick and 200 recovery?

Grace is getting buffed with hotr, while willpower is not

Malacthulhu

Baconlad wrote: »

How about 4% magick and 4% recovery? Or just a flat 2k magick and 200 recovery?

Grace is getting buffed with hotr, while willpower is not

Or make it so when you are down to 4% magic it procs the prophet and he just stands there wsving his finger at you making a tsk tsk sound. I agree with you though.

SodanTok

Willpower/Agility/Endurance are supposed to be better than all 3piece sets... BY DESIGN

IcyDeadPeople

Baconlad wrote: »

How about 4% magick and 4% recovery? Or just a flat 2k magick and 200 recovery?

Grace is getting buffed with hotr, while willpower is not

The problem is the calculation of the 4% seems to exclude other max magicka buffs. If that were fixed it should be more viable.

SodanTok

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

How about 4% magick and 4% recovery? Or just a flat 2k magick and 200 recovery?

Grace is getting buffed with hotr, while willpower is not

The problem is the calculation of the 4% seems to exclude other max magicka buffs. If that were fixed it should be more viable.

All max magicka buffs ignore other max magicka buffs (except CP stat increse)