PVE to PVP Transition Not Intuitive Enough

GrumpyDuckling

When the topic of transitioning from PVE to PVP comes up on ESO Live, it is common to hear devs use a phrase along the lines of, "We want the transition from PVE to PVP to be as intuitive as possible." Okay ZOS, that's great if that's the goal, but can you improve upon this please, specifically in regards to Impenetrable/Critical damage?

During this Midyear Mayhem event I have met a lot of new, awesome people who are trying PVP for the the first time, and I hear a good deal of these people voice their disappointment when they find out that their PVE builds, which they've put much time and effort into, are so easily susceptible to death from absurdly high tooltip totals because their enemies crit against them (which is really easy to do) and none of their armor has Impen. The necessity of wearing Impenetrable armor in Cyrodiil versus outside of Cyrodiil is an example of a situation when transitioning from PVE to PVP is NOT intuitive for players, especially new players.

I understand that PVE enemies cannot crit but enemy players in PVP can crit, which is why crit mechanics perform so vastly different in both scenarios. But ZOS, if the goal is to make the transition from PVE to PVP as intuitive as possible, then don't you think this is an area that needs examination? You use battle spirit on shields and healing, would it be insane to consider it for crits?

Drummerx04

If a player is unable to recognize that they are getting critical hits against other players and then make the conceptual leap that other players can crit them... I don't think this is as counter intuitive as you pretend it is.

That would be like being surprised that most players won't stand in my Liquid Lightning because the tooltip doesn't specify that enemies can move out of the way.

Solariken

Drummerx04 wrote: »

If a player is unable to recognize that they are getting critical hits against other players and then make the conceptual leap that other players can crit them... I don't think this is as counter intuitive as you pretend it is.

That would be like being surprised that most players won't stand in my Liquid Lightning because the tooltip doesn't specify that enemies can move out of the way.

Haha, this is true, although the OP has a bit of a point, I know lots of newbies who would just get all bent out of shape about getting exploded by other players and they didn't understand why. It's hard to use critical thinking skills when you are so full of salt and rage. XD

dem0n1k

Just change PVE monsters so they can crit!

esotoon

Drummerx04 wrote: »

If a player is unable to recognize that they are getting critical hits against other players and then make the conceptual leap that other players can crit them... I don't think this is as counter intuitive as you pretend it is.

Judging from repeated occurrences in guild chat, and from people asking for impen crafted items, not all PVE players realise that PVE enemies can't crit. So it's not that difficult to see that to those players, the thought of players doing crit damage wouldn't ever set off alarm bells.

Luigi_Vampa

Drummerx04 wrote: »

If a player is unable to recognize that they are getting critical hits against other players and then make the conceptual leap that other players can crit them... I don't think this is as counter intuitive as you pretend it is.

That would be like being surprised that most players won't stand in my Liquid Lightning because the tooltip doesn't specify that enemies can move out of the way.

You hacker! You must stand in my AoE for the ENTIRE DURATION! How the hell can you just move out of it!? Reported.

FloppyTouch

Pve people also need to take off moondancer gear we might seem like bosses but that stuff does nothing in pvp.

was in a pug and 3 of the people had there full pve trial gear on...

brandonv516

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Pve people also need to take off moondancer gear we might seem like bosses but that stuff does nothing in pvp.

was in a pug and 3 of the people had there full pve trial gear on...

Lol my thoughts exactly. Seen A LOT of people with moondancer staffs these last couple days.

mrdiamond666

Its like most of this game, its very unintititive to new players (but this game is ment to be played among multiplayers, not soloed the entire game. Yes, I got frustrated with PVP the first 2 times going in, but if you find a good group (TYVM BOOGERFACE and DONT-KILL-BETTY) for some great PVP learning, you will be sure to come back (I may be PVP'NG more than PVE'ing now). But thats the key, GET WITH A LEADER THAT KNOWS WHATS GOING ON, FOLLOW THAT CROWN, AND DO WHAT THEY SAY...

GrumpyDuckling

Drummerx04 wrote: »

If a player is unable to recognize that they are getting critical hits against other players and then make the conceptual leap that other players can crit them... I don't think this is as counter intuitive as you pretend it is.

That would be like being surprised that most players won't stand in my Liquid Lightning because the tooltip doesn't specify that enemies can move out of the way.

That's not the point - most new players quickly figure out the enemy players can crit against them.

The point is that a build that a player can use successfully in PVE might struggle mightily to transition well into PVP because the game plays vastly different once crits are introduced. All of the sudden, for a new player, that 5 divines and 2 infused build gets roasted, so then they have to do what, find new sets or re-farm their sets to get some Impen? Not exactly a smooth transition to PVP for new players transitioning from PVE.

"Welcome to PVP, that set you farmed in PVE for so long will leave you susceptible to frequent 25k crits because you don't have any Impen. Enjoy your time in Cyrodiil!"

Betsararie

lol'd hard

Everyone knows you use impen in pvp. Even someone who has never played pvp knows that. If you don't know that, it means you have done exactly ZERO research on the game in any way, and your pve build was likely horribly ineffectual anyway.

Players need to RESEARCH before just jumping in and playing, if you ask me. Know what you're doing a little bit before you start playing- this goes for both pve and pvp.

PocketNova

Perhaps they should add something to the tutorial, since all new players would have to go through the tutorial to unlock quests/etc.

MrBetadine

Blanco wrote: »

lol'd hard

Everyone knows you use impen in pvp. Even someone who has never played pvp knows that. If you don't know that, it means you have done exactly ZERO research on the game in any way, and your pve build was likely horribly ineffectual anyway.

Players need to RESEARCH before just jumping in and playing, if you ask me. Know what you're doing a little bit before you start playing- this goes for both pve and pvp.

WRONG. ZOS said, "We want the transition from PVE to PVP to be as intuitive as possible." That's their excuse of not balancing PVE and PVP separately. Now the transition is not intuitive if it requires RESEARCH.

Betsararie

MrBetadine wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

lol'd hard

Everyone knows you use impen in pvp. Even someone who has never played pvp knows that. If you don't know that, it means you have done exactly ZERO research on the game in any way, and your pve build was likely horribly ineffectual anyway.

Players need to RESEARCH before just jumping in and playing, if you ask me. Know what you're doing a little bit before you start playing- this goes for both pve and pvp.

WRONG. ZOS said, "We want the transition from PVE to PVP to be as intuitive as possible." That's their excuse of not balancing PVE and PVP separately. Now the transition is not intuitive if it requires RESEARCH.

Whatever I don't remember ZOS ever saying it has to be intuitive (I probably never saw it), and by the way, why does it have to be intuitive?

I don't think it should be intuitive. Intuitive = easy which I am not a fan of, I prefer things that take more skill.

Just because ZOS says something, that doesn't mean they are necessarily going to follow through with it. It also doesn't necessarily mean that it is correct either....

SquareSausage

I don't think that crits is the main issue, more that players act intelligently were as a boss just stands by the tank and unloads his rotation.

It takes a big transition for anyone who has never pvped before to step up to the plate and become decent, but it will be learned in time through practice.

If you are a good pve player that transition will be easier as you understand the requirement of optimal gear, skills and potions etc.

Noone becomes a god over night.

CyrusArya

Why are these posts always written as if new players or PvErs are mentally handicapped? Doesn't take a ton of intuition to figure out the value of crit resist (not impen) in PvP. Making the transition intuitive does not equate to dumbing the game down and making it simplistic. Thing are quite fine the way they are.

Stop being so entitled and stop asking for hand outs. This whiny entitled mindset among under achievers is why the west is falling behind and why my grandchildren will have to bow to Asian overlords.

Chelo

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

If a player is unable to recognize that they are getting critical hits against other players and then make the conceptual leap that other players can crit them... I don't think this is as counter intuitive as you pretend it is.

That would be like being surprised that most players won't stand in my Liquid Lightning because the tooltip doesn't specify that enemies can move out of the way.

That's not the point - most new players quickly figure out the enemy players can crit against them.

The point is that a build that a player can use successfully in PVE might struggle mightily to transition well into PVP because the game plays vastly different once crits are introduced. All of the sudden, for a new player, that 5 divines and 2 infused build gets roasted, so then they have to do what, find new sets or re-farm their sets to get some Impen? Not exactly a smooth transition to PVP for new players transitioning from PVE.

"Welcome to PVP, that set you farmed in PVE for so long will leave you susceptible to frequent 25k crits because you don't have any Impen. Enjoy your time in Cyrodiil!"

Why something you farmed doing trials would help you to do PvP? Thats stupid... Of course your PvE build isnt going to work in PvP, seen to me like a Git Gud issue...

GrumpyDuckling

CyrusArya wrote: »

Why are these posts always written as if new players or PvErs are mentally handicapped? Doesn't take a ton of intuition to figure out the value of crit resist (not impen) in PvP. Making the transition intuitive does not equate to dumbing the game down and making it simplistic. Thing are quite fine the way they are.

Stop being so entitled and stop asking for hand outs. This whiny entitled mindset among under achievers is why the west is falling behind and why my grandchildren will have to bow to Asian overlords.

What are you talking about? Do I need to spell this out for you?

- In ESO Live ZOS has said they want the transition from PVE and PVP (and vice a versa) to be intuitive so that it feels like you are playing the same game, which is the reason they give for always balancing both together.
- I mention that there is a significant difference in play (crit/impen) that doesn't seem congruent with their goal, and that's entitlement and asking for handouts?

Please read before you post - it's important for everyone in both the east and the west.

GrumpyDuckling

Chelo wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

If a player is unable to recognize that they are getting critical hits against other players and then make the conceptual leap that other players can crit them... I don't think this is as counter intuitive as you pretend it is.

That would be like being surprised that most players won't stand in my Liquid Lightning because the tooltip doesn't specify that enemies can move out of the way.

That's not the point - most new players quickly figure out the enemy players can crit against them.

The point is that a build that a player can use successfully in PVE might struggle mightily to transition well into PVP because the game plays vastly different once crits are introduced. All of the sudden, for a new player, that 5 divines and 2 infused build gets roasted, so then they have to do what, find new sets or re-farm their sets to get some Impen? Not exactly a smooth transition to PVP for new players transitioning from PVE.

"Welcome to PVP, that set you farmed in PVE for so long will leave you susceptible to frequent 25k crits because you don't have any Impen. Enjoy your time in Cyrodiil!"

Why something you farmed doing trials would help you to do PvP? Thats stupid... Of course your PvE build isnt going to work in PvP, seen to me like a Git Gud issue...

What?

Betsararie

I think the biggest question is why does OP want the transition from pve to pvp to be more intuitive than it is now. It's fine the way it is, do we really need it to be more intuitive? I think the answer is no.

Let people struggle a little bit until they can improve themselves in the game mode, also, above all else, keep things skill-based / not dumbed down.

GrumpyDuckling

Blanco wrote: »

I think the biggest question is why does OP want the transition from pve to pvp to be more intuitive than it is now. It's fine the way it is, do we really need it to be more intuitive? I think the answer is no.

Let people struggle a little bit until they can improve themselves in the game mode, also, above all else, keep things skill-based / not dumbed down.

What is being dumbed down and not "skill-based?"

freespirit

Quick hint........

New to PVP? Go play a lower level character in below 50 campaign.......

It's fun, less pressure to have the right gear, no CP, less skills to contend with and if I can survive anyone can!!

TequilaFire

OP, on the other side of the coin my all impen PvP gear isn't up to max DPS standards for PvE either.
I have to switch to a set with divines for PvE.
Maybe now that more PvE players have tried PvP they might understand why we have more trouble with certain proc sets as well.

GrumpyDuckling

TequilaFire wrote: »

OP, on the other side of the coin my all impen PvP gear isn't up to max DPS standards for PvE either.
I have to switch to a set with divines for PvE.
Maybe now that more PvE players have tried PvP they might understand why we have more trouble with certain proc sets as well.

Absolutely. You won't hit as hard as divines/infused, but it's still an easier transition with Impen from PVP to PVE. Reverse it, however and there is a major difference.

TequilaFire

You could quickly adjust your champion points for more crit resistance though.
Blocking is your friend also.

Betsararie

lol. Infused worthless on 99% of builds.

go divines or just go home

GrumpyDuckling

TequilaFire wrote: »

You could quickly adjust your champion points for more crit resistance though.
Blocking is your friend also.

Agreed. That's what my group was telling some new players today. It helped them cut down on a few of the insane numbers on their death recaps, but the numbers were still much higher than those of us with Impen.

GrumpyDuckling

Blanco wrote: »

lol. Infused worthless on 99% of builds.

go divines or just go home

2 Infused - Chest and Legs
5 Divines - Everything else

Narvuntien

And people are constantly screaming to seperate balance for the two of them....
Imagine how unintuative that would be...

Personally I am running all divines and just got used to dying. There are lots of ways to be useful without getting 1v1 melee kills.

I have however learnt to block and use magelight (on my stam character) and roll dodge and run (that hasty retreat bow passive).

I also tell everyone to get more health for PVE you only need 17K for PVP you need 23-30K health. Perhaps poping on a few health enchants or just switching your gear to something defensive. Perhaps crafting yourself some inpen heavy armor quickly. heavy Seducers or Hundings rage is easy to make.

I like that crits matter more in PVP it is a way they can balance them seperately more effectively than they otherwise could.

Berenhir

The problem is the complete lack of information ZOS creates with their strategy of hiding all relevant information and making the game extremely easy to ensure no-one needs any information about game mechanics in the first place.

The game does not tell you that only players can crit.
The game does not tell you how critical resistance works.
The game does not tell you how much x points of critical resistance are worth (BTW even the theorycrafters argue years later if 1% is 66 or 68 points)

The game does not tell you that players do attacks that need to be blocked and in contrast to PVE these attacks have no telegraph and often don't even have a complete animation because they are cancelled and woven into an onslaught of abilities in a previously completely unknown combo of burst damage.

In PVE incoming damage from single opponents is usually either constant and low or high with telegraph and ages to respond (compared to PvP).

The transition from PvE is neither smooth nor intuitive. Everyone without extensive knowledge of game and especially class mechanics will be eaten alive when joining an environment where predators are waiting for them, predators that have trained every day for three years to boost up their chances of winning any possible encounter.

As long as ZoS doesn't help players with information about basic game concepts and mechanics right from the start, normal people won't transition anywhere but into frustration.

MakoFore

it take a while to understand these concepts which much of the community takes as law or nature by now. i remember asking a vet friend when i was new- that i wanted gear that would be good for pvp and pve- and him simply not understanding the request. i dont blame him now. there should be some in game tutorial that shows us what gear we should go for for each scenario. they are wildly different skills, morphs, gear - everything. last few days i ive seen a lot of players running around with endless hail dual wield builds they've probably brought over from pve, or blockade of fire, pve mag builds. its a lot to learn and the game should take on some responsibility of teaching .