Absolutely Outraged (No Morrowind in ESO+)

Pops_ND_Irish

Kalkano wrote: »

I was just about to get back into ESO for Morrowind, but couldn't find how to activate it via ESO+. Turns out...I CAN'T!? I have to PAY FOR IT!?

How dare you? How DARE you? After all the money I've sunk into ESO Plus, you suddenly ask us to also pay for DLC? DLC being free was one of the biggest reasons to HAVE ESO+!

I'm done. I'm out. I just cancelled my subscription. This game will not see another dime from me. Bethesda in general will now be viewed in an entirely different light. I will no longer be as free with my money with them.

Send gold and mats

Nerouyn

Kalkano wrote: »

I was just about to get back into ESO for Morrowind, but couldn't find how to activate it via ESO+. Turns out...I CAN'T!? I have to PAY FOR IT!?

I have subscribed before don't any more so I'm not in the same boat. But I sympathise and completely understand your position.

I'm not defending ZO but say the following for the sake of helping you to understand how we've arrived here.

ZO have a strategy of grossly overpricing some limited time sale crown store items (eg. glow kitty, elk, hero costumes, houses). Them being limited time means some people will shell out full price for them. To counter this evil they significantly discount crowns for a few days three times a year.

What they've probably discovered is that many players now won't spend any money on the game except to buy discounted crowns. Then they buy the not outrageously overpriced DLC with those crowns, effectively getting them at a stupidly good price. It also has the unfortunate effect of seriously undermining the value of the monthly crowns you get with ESO Plus and it's the reason I don't sub.

Hence ZO invented the "chapter" which is absolutely a DLC but instead of being honest and saying, "We're changing this policy of being able to buy DLC with crowns and all DLCs free with ESO Plus," they did their usual trick of well, trying to trick us. I can understand them wanting to get full price for their DLC content. Obviously. But I think trying to squeeze more money out of subscribers is seriously pushing their luck.

MyrddinEmrys

Out of curiosity, why did no one simply file a lawsuit against ZOS? The content is by legal definition, a DLC. You would have a very easy time in court fighting this one, and if you really wanted you could start it in small claims where you don't get lawyers to muck things up. Every person could file a small claims suit (around here it costs about $70 to file) in the amount of 3x the cost of the Morrowind (Chapter?) - 3x because in almost every state, breach of contract entitles the plaintiff to treble damages, or 3x the actual lost $. In addition to this, even if a few hundred people were all that filed a suit, ZOS would have to send a non-lawyer legal representative to each and every hearing. If they don't show up, its a default judgement for the plaintiff. They would either have to suck up the losses (which would set legal precedence for the other cases, which would in turn likely end in a class action suit) or they would have to pay a enormous amount of money to fly people around the country to show up for the trials. Either way it would cause them so much pain they would probably never make the mistake again.

But if it is so easy, why are we not doing this? Probably because its not worth the time and effort to make such a legal effort over $45... but if its worth it to whoever is reading this - be my guest.


Disclaimer - I am not acting in any capacity as legal council. Specific laws and proceedings are representative and man not reflect the exact laws of your local government.

Stopnaggin

MyrddinEmrys wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why did no one simply file a lawsuit against ZOS? The content is by legal definition, a DLC. You would have a very easy time in court fighting this one, and if you really wanted you could start it in small claims where you don't get lawyers to muck things up. Every person could file a small claims suit (around here it costs about $70 to file) in the amount of 3x the cost of the Morrowind (Chapter?) - 3x because in almost every state, breach of contract entitles the plaintiff to treble damages, or 3x the actual lost $. In addition to this, even if a few hundred people were all that filed a suit, ZOS would have to send a non-lawyer legal representative to each and every hearing. If they don't show up, its a default judgement for the plaintiff. They would either have to suck up the losses (which would set legal precedence for the other cases, which would in turn likely end in a class action suit) or they would have to pay a enormous amount of money to fly people around the country to show up for the trials. Either way it would cause them so much pain they would probably never make the mistake again.

But if it is so easy, why are we not doing this? Probably because its not worth the time and effort to make such a legal effort over $45... but if its worth it to whoever is reading this - be my guest.


Disclaimer - I am not acting in any capacity as legal council. Specific laws and proceedings are representative and man not reflect the exact laws of your local government.

Probably because in the TOS, everything is subject to change without notice. They changed the language to all DLC available in the CROWN STORE, and since this was unavailable there it isn't covered by ESO+. Right, wrong or otherwise they covered themselves.

And honestly it wouldn't be worth the time, money or effort.

MyrddinEmrys

Stopnaggin wrote: »

MyrddinEmrys wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why did no one simply file a lawsuit against ZOS? The content is by legal definition, a DLC. You would have a very easy time in court fighting this one, and if you really wanted you could start it in small claims where you don't get lawyers to muck things up. Every person could file a small claims suit (around here it costs about $70 to file) in the amount of 3x the cost of the Morrowind (Chapter?) - 3x because in almost every state, breach of contract entitles the plaintiff to treble damages, or 3x the actual lost $. In addition to this, even if a few hundred people were all that filed a suit, ZOS would have to send a non-lawyer legal representative to each and every hearing. If they don't show up, its a default judgement for the plaintiff. They would either have to suck up the losses (which would set legal precedence for the other cases, which would in turn likely end in a class action suit) or they would have to pay a enormous amount of money to fly people around the country to show up for the trials. Either way it would cause them so much pain they would probably never make the mistake again.

But if it is so easy, why are we not doing this? Probably because its not worth the time and effort to make such a legal effort over $45... but if its worth it to whoever is reading this - be my guest.


Disclaimer - I am not acting in any capacity as legal council. Specific laws and proceedings are representative and man not reflect the exact laws of your local government.

Probably because in the TOS, everything is subject to change without notice. They changed the language to all DLC available in the CROWN STORE, and since this was unavailable there it isn't covered by ESO+. Right, wrong or otherwise they covered themselves.

And honestly it wouldn't be worth the time, money or effort.

A lot of companies think that they can cover their ass that way, by saying things like "subject to change without notice" or the like. If you know the law well there are many cases where they are legally prevented from doing such things, but no one ever challenges them on it because they have no reason to. Again this is subject to local laws. Regardless, even if you live in a state where such provisions are allowed, it doesn't much matter. If even 1% of player filed a suit, the resulting financial and human resource stretch would likely result in MAJOR changes to how ZOS respects players. Unfortunately it doesn't always matter who is right, it matters who has the bigger stick. The logistics of fighting lawsuits from 1000+ people would put ZOS at a severe disadvantage.

That being said, I agree, it is not worth the time money or effort - though that doesn't change the fact that it could be done.

I wont give a legal review of the TOS or a history of applicable case law, but the precedent exists for this kind of thing.

Stopnaggin

MyrddinEmrys wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

MyrddinEmrys wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why did no one simply file a lawsuit against ZOS? The content is by legal definition, a DLC. You would have a very easy time in court fighting this one, and if you really wanted you could start it in small claims where you don't get lawyers to muck things up. Every person could file a small claims suit (around here it costs about $70 to file) in the amount of 3x the cost of the Morrowind (Chapter?) - 3x because in almost every state, breach of contract entitles the plaintiff to treble damages, or 3x the actual lost $. In addition to this, even if a few hundred people were all that filed a suit, ZOS would have to send a non-lawyer legal representative to each and every hearing. If they don't show up, its a default judgement for the plaintiff. They would either have to suck up the losses (which would set legal precedence for the other cases, which would in turn likely end in a class action suit) or they would have to pay a enormous amount of money to fly people around the country to show up for the trials. Either way it would cause them so much pain they would probably never make the mistake again.

But if it is so easy, why are we not doing this? Probably because its not worth the time and effort to make such a legal effort over $45... but if its worth it to whoever is reading this - be my guest.


Disclaimer - I am not acting in any capacity as legal council. Specific laws and proceedings are representative and man not reflect the exact laws of your local government.

Probably because in the TOS, everything is subject to change without notice. They changed the language to all DLC available in the CROWN STORE, and since this was unavailable there it isn't covered by ESO+. Right, wrong or otherwise they covered themselves.

And honestly it wouldn't be worth the time, money or effort.

A lot of companies think that they can cover their ass that way, by saying things like "subject to change without notice" or the like. If you know the law well there are many cases where they are legally prevented from doing such things, but no one ever challenges them on it because they have no reason to. Again this is subject to local laws. Regardless, even if you live in a state where such provisions are allowed, it doesn't much matter. If even 1% of player filed a suit, the resulting financial and human resource stretch would likely result in MAJOR changes to how ZOS respects players. Unfortunately it doesn't always matter who is right, it matters who has the bigger stick. The logistics of fighting lawsuits from 1000+ people would put ZOS at a severe disadvantage.

That being said, I agree, it is not worth the time money or effort - though that doesn't change the fact that it could be done.

I wont give a legal review of the TOS or a history of applicable case law, but the precedent exists for this kind of thing.

I know European laws are a bit stricter on this sort of thing, but not sure about state laws here. And yeah the time and effort to me isn't worth the $40.

Queo

Kalkano wrote: »

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

Kalkano wrote: »

I was just about to get back into ESO for Morrowind, but couldn't find how to activate it via ESO+. Turns out...I CAN'T!? I have to PAY FOR IT!?

How dare you? How DARE you? After all the money I've sunk into ESO Plus, you suddenly ask us to also pay for DLC? DLC being free was one of the biggest reasons to HAVE ESO+!

I'm done. I'm out. I just cancelled my subscription. This game will not see another dime from me. Bethesda in general will now be viewed in an entirely different light. I will no longer be as free with my money with them.

Keep your head on your shoulders @Kalkano, that is why I frequently check the forums as well as any other affiliations(Like Microsoft) to make sure I plan ahead.

Because Morrowind is a separate chapter from a different Era (Lore wise) it is a "Type" of expansion to the game (no other way to put it at this time) but there is no reason to be upset because of something that you simply "Misread" beforehand, but the upcoming DLC (Horns of the Reach) on the other hand, should be mandatorily part of the ESO+ membership as well as being available with crowns soon (It is co-currently available on the PTS until its release date for PC and consoles.)

in short: just be yourself, forgive yourself of your own mistake (As ZOS pointed out the whole thing through a link in this thread below) & move on.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/317162/official-discussion-thread-for-the-elder-scrolls-online-morrowind-pre-order-faq/p1

It's a matter of over-the-top slight of hand. They literally make up new terms to create a loophole in their own agreements. I'm not asking for a refund or anything, I simply will stop giving them my money. Yes, they deserve it. I don't care about the terms of service or any other legal document, as I'm not making any legal claims. That doesn't change how despicable this is, and I'll retaliate the only way that I can (no more money, and not just for ESO).

This is why we cant have a nice forum...

Sigtric

MyrddinEmrys wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

MyrddinEmrys wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why did no one simply file a lawsuit against ZOS? The content is by legal definition, a DLC. You would have a very easy time in court fighting this one, and if you really wanted you could start it in small claims where you don't get lawyers to muck things up. Every person could file a small claims suit (around here it costs about $70 to file) in the amount of 3x the cost of the Morrowind (Chapter?) - 3x because in almost every state, breach of contract entitles the plaintiff to treble damages, or 3x the actual lost $. In addition to this, even if a few hundred people were all that filed a suit, ZOS would have to send a non-lawyer legal representative to each and every hearing. If they don't show up, its a default judgement for the plaintiff. They would either have to suck up the losses (which would set legal precedence for the other cases, which would in turn likely end in a class action suit) or they would have to pay a enormous amount of money to fly people around the country to show up for the trials. Either way it would cause them so much pain they would probably never make the mistake again.

But if it is so easy, why are we not doing this? Probably because its not worth the time and effort to make such a legal effort over $45... but if its worth it to whoever is reading this - be my guest.


Disclaimer - I am not acting in any capacity as legal council. Specific laws and proceedings are representative and man not reflect the exact laws of your local government.

Probably because in the TOS, everything is subject to change without notice. They changed the language to all DLC available in the CROWN STORE, and since this was unavailable there it isn't covered by ESO+. Right, wrong or otherwise they covered themselves.

And honestly it wouldn't be worth the time, money or effort.

A lot of companies think that they can cover their ass that way, by saying things like "subject to change without notice" or the like. If you know the law well there are many cases where they are legally prevented from doing such things, but no one ever challenges them on it because they have no reason to. Again this is subject to local laws. Regardless, even if you live in a state where such provisions are allowed, it doesn't much matter. If even 1% of player filed a suit, the resulting financial and human resource stretch would likely result in MAJOR changes to how ZOS respects players. Unfortunately it doesn't always matter who is right, it matters who has the bigger stick. The logistics of fighting lawsuits from 1000+ people would put ZOS at a severe disadvantage.

That being said, I agree, it is not worth the time money or effort - though that doesn't change the fact that it could be done.

I wont give a legal review of the TOS or a history of applicable case law, but the precedent exists for this kind of thing.

Anyone half intelligent doesn't want to be poking legal sticks at Zenimax Media either. This would not be the people vs a medium sized moderately successful game studio. This would be versus a $billion+ company. Sure, small claims/class action have won against such before, but it's barely a drop in the bucket, and in the case of what is going on with ESO, you're a fool if you think their legal team doesn't have their backsides covered.

Everyone loves to point the finger: ZOS! ZOS! ZOS! but they forget ZOS is only making the game. Bethesda Softworks and the Suits at the parent Company Zenimax Media are running the marketing show, backing the funding, making the big monetary decisions, etc.