My biggest complaint about Vampires - The Nature of Health Recovery, Stamina and Magicka Recovery

dodgehopper_ESO

My biggest complaint about Vampires in ESO is that they get an awful lot of benefits for very little weakness. It is known by almost everyone that Health and Health Recovery is not a very impressive statistic. In PvP if you build for this sort of tankiness you can really only make yourself mildly annoying to some, and nothing but a pincushion to others. The game itself keeps nullifying the value of the Health statistic. This creates a false set of choices. Why should I not be a vampire? If I lose a little health regeneration who cares, I get inordinate amounts of resistance and a significant regeneration to the statistic that matters, stamina and magicka regeneration. They've just nerfed health regeneration with the Defile effecting that stat now. My problem with Vampires is that they wreck a system and make it very hard not to play one. Even if you are a tank it is in your advantage to go Vampire because all you have to do is crank up your health numbers to a point that even when you hit the low scale you'll have such high resistances the health regeneration flaw is irrelevant. More Stamina Regeneration and Magicka regeneration means that you can keep firing your abilities longer. I grow tired of Vampires. Fighters Guild is a joke. I don't mind them thematically in the game but the way they have been implemented has chafed with me pretty much since the outset of the game. I say this as someone who plays them and has used them, often grudgingly because they bolster a build in ways being healthy and not a vampire would not. The regeneration issue is the core of my problem with these monsters. In my view Fighters Guild should get some kind of gigantic defensive passive that is mutually exclusive to being a Vampire. Its really the Meridia's guild anyway (the Anti-Daedra/Vampire/Skeleton/Ghost being) so why won't the fighters guild either get some mutually exclusive benefits land passives. I'm growing tired of the balance of this part of the game.

Thogard

I have to admit that running the trollking set was the #1 reason why I dropped being a vampire when I converted my Mag DK back into a Stam DK

Runschei

Personally I'm more annoyed with the vampire look. Freshly dipped face in flour. Mmmm.

Rohamad_Ali

Very little weakness ? Ever been under a oil when someone hits Dawnbreaker ? I don't care how tanky you are that's a bad vampire situation . Cold fire with oils is a death sentence . Vampire has many weaknesses . See a vampire tank and don't have a interupt on your class , hit them with silver bolts .

Rohamad_Ali

Runschei wrote: »

Personally I'm more annoyed with the vampire look. Freshly dipped face in flour. Mmmm.

bloodthirstyvampire

Vampire master race

Runschei

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Runschei wrote: »

Personally I'm more annoyed with the vampire look. Freshly dipped face in flour. Mmmm.

If my ganker was a kitty cat, she would look like that

dodgehopper_ESO

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Very little weakness ? Ever been under a oil when someone hits Dawnbreaker ? I don't care how tanky you are that's a bad vampire situation . Cold fire with oils is a death sentence . Vampire has many weaknesses . See a vampire tank and don't have a interupt on your class , hit them with silver bolts .

To be fair - Cold Fire with Oils hurts just about everyone. In this respect situational awareness is key for everyone, but perhaps slightly more for a Vampire. I'm just not convinced of the balance in this aspect of the game, and I've looked sideways at it essentially since the outset.

On the matter of art I also have to agree. I do not mind the paleness but I do mind the strange rash everyone gets around the eyes. I mind the fact that I have a khajiit nightblade who despite having a Black Mane only turns gray all over his hairy body with the exclusion of his facial hair. I mind the fact that my beautiful crocodile green Argonian turns blue-white. I can understand getting paler, but Vampirism does a completely strange thing with the color palette. I didn't want to get into the artistic element of Vampires though.

I want to talk about the fact that Fighters Guild should be mutually exclusive to Vampirism and should have competitive abilities both passive and active. In addition they need to stop balancing the game as if Health Regeneration were equal to Magic and Stamina regeneration. The health regeneration 'nerf' vampires receive is a joke and while talking about Tankpires lets not forget how annoying mist form can be. You are right that getting CC'd while under oil, getting cold fired is a bane of Vampires, but I would posit that what you just described is a bane to any tank.

Silver Bolts is shite. Silver Leash should work like chain pull. It always should have. Its a weapon skill line. You're pulling in the lead. Why does this only work on magicka? In short: Make Fighters Guild Great Again (or at least for once). I'm tired of this game being Elder Monsters online.

ThePrinceOfBargains

Well as far as looks go, I'd say they look pretty good for walking corpses. At least in stage 1 & 2. Remember, at the end of the day, they're monsters.

The_Smilemeister

Gotta love how he fails to mention fire weakness. Fire is more abundant than lag and a Magic DK is a vampire's worst nightmare.

Oakmontowls_ESO

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Very little weakness ? Ever been under a oil when someone hits Dawnbreaker ? I don't care how tanky you are that's a bad vampire situation . Cold fire with oils is a death sentence . Vampire has many weaknesses . See a vampire tank and don't have a interupt on your class , hit them with silver bolts .

To be fair - Cold Fire with Oils hurts just about everyone. In this respect situational awareness is key for everyone, but perhaps slightly more for a Vampire. I'm just not convinced of the balance in this aspect of the game, and I've looked sideways at it essentially since the outset.

On the matter of art I also have to agree. I do not mind the paleness but I do mind the strange rash everyone gets around the eyes. I mind the fact that I have a khajiit nightblade who despite having a Black Mane only turns gray all over his hairy body with the exclusion of his facial hair. I mind the fact that my beautiful crocodile green Argonian turns blue-white. I can understand getting paler, but Vampirism does a completely strange thing with the color palette. I didn't want to get into the artistic element of Vampires though.

I want to talk about the fact that Fighters Guild should be mutually exclusive to Vampirism and should have competitive abilities both passive and active. In addition they need to stop balancing the game as if Health Regeneration were equal to Magic and Stamina regeneration. The health regeneration 'nerf' vampires receive is a joke and while talking about Tankpires lets not forget how annoying mist form can be. You are right that getting CC'd while under oil, getting cold fired is a bane of Vampires, but I would posit that what you just described is a bane to any tank.

Silver Bolts is shite. Silver Leash should work like chain pull. It always should have. Its a weapon skill line. You're pulling in the lead. Why does this only work on magicka? In short: Make Fighters Guild Great Again (or at least for once). I'm tired of this game being Elder Monsters online.

fighter's guild is currently very strong for stamina. It has one of the strongest ultimates for stamina as well as some very good passives and one of the only ways to get minor force. Compared to mage's guild skills, it is pretty balanced.

dodgehopper_ESO

OpponentSmile66 wrote: »

Gotta love how he fails to mention fire weakness. Fire is more abundant than lag and a Magic DK is a vampire's worst nightmare.

Try having more than 10k health next time. The fire weakness was worthwhile to speak of years ago. It is laughable now, barely a tickle. How do I know? I tank just about EVERYTHING as a Vampire on non DK's at Stage 4. I think that in and of itself should tell you something. I suppose if I was reliant on health regeneration I'd be in trouble.

This brings up the point I wanted to make. I feel like health should do something different than it does currently. I've offered ideas before but among them would include: across the board regeneration, stronger light and heavy attacks, stronger returns from light and heavy attacks. In short health should be more meaningful without being overpowered and perhaps the solution is to take away its max health benefits and instead put them in a general realm of 'healthiness'.

The rhetoric of 'gotta love how...' is also a weak way of framing your point. I'll grant to you the fire weakness issue if you grant me the value of undeath and stamina/magicka regeneration. My complaint in large part is that this game has become too much about the two 'DPS' stats. I just think a rethinking needs to be done and Vampirism in general needs a counterpart that is better than what Fighters Guild has to offer. There are a lot of points I'm making here and I realize that we're looking at a multivariable problem which means there is a high degree of complexity. If you change one thing it can effect 10 other things. I don't like Vampirism as it stands in an mmo setting. Were it to have a mutually exclusive skill line not accessible to Vampires that ran counter to it I wouldn't have a problem. This game needs a Dawnguard badly and no Fighters Guild is not it. If we want to get to theme there are FAR too many Vampires running around in daylight no less but I can live with that.

The_Smilemeister

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

OpponentSmile66 wrote: »

Gotta love how he fails to mention fire weakness. Fire is more abundant than lag and a Magic DK is a vampire's worst nightmare.

Try having more than 10k health next time. The fire weakness was worthwhile to speak of years ago. It is laughable now, barely a tickle. How do I know? I tank just about EVERYTHING as a Vampire on non DK's at Stage 4. I think that in and of itself should tell you something. I suppose if I was reliant on health regeneration I'd be in trouble.

This brings up the point I wanted to make. I feel like health should do something different than it does currently. I've offered ideas before but among them would include: across the board regeneration, stronger light and heavy attacks, stronger returns from light and heavy attacks. In short health should be more meaningful without being overpowered and perhaps the solution is to take away its max health benefits and instead put them in a general realm of 'healthiness'.

First of all, as an Imperial, I have nearly 20k health unbuffed. Making assumptions doesn't make you look smart, only makes you look foolish.

Second, not everyone is a tank. There is something called a DPS. We're naturally more squishy than tanks and so yes that extra fire damage and Fighters Guild extra damage doesn't really do us much favours.

For you, maybe you don't feel the downsides because you're a tank and being hard to kill is sort of the point of being one. For the rest of us, it's a huge risk with a high reward and ( at least IMO) there's no need to change it.

dodgehopper_ESO

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Very little weakness ? Ever been under a oil when someone hits Dawnbreaker ? I don't care how tanky you are that's a bad vampire situation . Cold fire with oils is a death sentence . Vampire has many weaknesses . See a vampire tank and don't have a interupt on your class , hit them with silver bolts .

To be fair - Cold Fire with Oils hurts just about everyone. In this respect situational awareness is key for everyone, but perhaps slightly more for a Vampire. I'm just not convinced of the balance in this aspect of the game, and I've looked sideways at it essentially since the outset.

On the matter of art I also have to agree. I do not mind the paleness but I do mind the strange rash everyone gets around the eyes. I mind the fact that I have a khajiit nightblade who despite having a Black Mane only turns gray all over his hairy body with the exclusion of his facial hair. I mind the fact that my beautiful crocodile green Argonian turns blue-white. I can understand getting paler, but Vampirism does a completely strange thing with the color palette. I didn't want to get into the artistic element of Vampires though.

I want to talk about the fact that Fighters Guild should be mutually exclusive to Vampirism and should have competitive abilities both passive and active. In addition they need to stop balancing the game as if Health Regeneration were equal to Magic and Stamina regeneration. The health regeneration 'nerf' vampires receive is a joke and while talking about Tankpires lets not forget how annoying mist form can be. You are right that getting CC'd while under oil, getting cold fired is a bane of Vampires, but I would posit that what you just described is a bane to any tank.

Silver Bolts is shite. Silver Leash should work like chain pull. It always should have. Its a weapon skill line. You're pulling in the lead. Why does this only work on magicka? In short: Make Fighters Guild Great Again (or at least for once). I'm tired of this game being Elder Monsters online.

fighter's guild is currently very strong for stamina. It has one of the strongest ultimates for stamina as well as some very good passives and one of the only ways to get minor force. Compared to mage's guild skills, it is pretty balanced.

The FG ultimate is worthwhile I agree. Its worthwhile for everyone and fairly universal. I'm not too concerned about Mages Guild in this topic but I'd just say that MG has a nice ulti and some useful passives that are universally held by quite a few mage spec characters. You focused on the wrong point though, which is 'I'm tired of this game being Elder Monsters Online'. There are too few reasons to not be a monster and the 'weaknesses' are fairly laughable all things considered. It is fair that a player of a Vampire has to sink a fair share of skill points into the skill line but then that's the point isn't it. A mutually exclusive skill line would run as a fair counter and cost skill points. That's the rub. Additionally the notion of trading health regeneration for 10% stamina and magicka regeneration is somewhat ridiculous, particularly when vampires receive such strong mitigation in general via undeath. You could make the fair case that the fire weakness is the offset to Undeath but it really doesn't matter when you're running 32,000 spell resistance and have CP in resisting magic, elements, crits, etc. In a game where they just intentionally starved us of regeneration it has only made Vampire more not less valuable.

dodgehopper_ESO

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

OpponentSmile66 wrote: »

Gotta love how he fails to mention fire weakness. Fire is more abundant than lag and a Magic DK is a vampire's worst nightmare.

Try having more than 10k health next time. The fire weakness was worthwhile to speak of years ago. It is laughable now, barely a tickle. How do I know? I tank just about EVERYTHING as a Vampire on non DK's at Stage 4. I think that in and of itself should tell you something. I suppose if I was reliant on health regeneration I'd be in trouble.

This brings up the point I wanted to make. I feel like health should do something different than it does currently. I've offered ideas before but among them would include: across the board regeneration, stronger light and heavy attacks, stronger returns from light and heavy attacks. In short health should be more meaningful without being overpowered and perhaps the solution is to take away its max health benefits and instead put them in a general realm of 'healthiness'.

The rhetoric of 'gotta love how...' is also a weak way of framing your point. I'll grant to you the fire weakness issue if you grant me the value of undeath and stamina/magicka regeneration. My complaint in large part is that this game has become too much about the two 'DPS' stats. I just think a rethinking needs to be done and Vampirism in general needs a counterpart that is better than what Fighters Guild has to offer. There are a lot of points I'm making here and I realize that we're looking at a multivariable problem which means there is a high degree of complexity. If you change one thing it can effect 10 other things. I don't like Vampirism as it stands in an mmo setting. Were it to have a mutually exclusive skill line not accessible to Vampires that ran counter to it I wouldn't have a problem. This game needs a Dawnguard badly and no Fighters Guild is not it. If we want to get to theme there are FAR too many Vampires running around in daylight no less but I can live with that.

It is hard for me to feel badly about using a snide remark when your initial response to my post was snide. However, namecalling serves no purpose so I'll admit its a fair point - you should do the same. The issue here is that particularly in PvP there are gradients of Tankiness and DPS. It is not a either/or scenario. Magic and Stamina regeneration are very important to survivability as well as DPS. Magic and Stamina regeneration also make it possible to build insane burst and sustain so it is reasonable to expect that you should be less survivable. That extra stamina regeneration for a mage means more dodge rolling, interrupting, and cc breaking it could also be more weapon damage output on a stamina build. The magic regeneration means more self protection powers being fired off and more sustained damage output for a mage. In my view this dwarfs the minor loss of some health regeneration and a meager fire weakness. My statement of 'Try having more than 10k health' was hyperbole. 20,000 health is reasonable and to be honest even my DPS characters tend to exceed that by a small amount depending on race. You also need some level of resistance to make those health numbers meaningful for your resilience (effective vs. actual health). In that vein this is why sets like Spriggan are becoming more popular because punching a hole through the opponents armor can be very important in this game.

Please convince me I am wrong though. Tell me that health regeneration is on par as a stat to magicka and stamina.

MarzAttakz

I utterly detest the shoddy way vampire textures, bump maps, blending modes and hue changes have been implemented by the design department. Lazy and amateur in my opinion.

I can handle pale, I cannot stomach the blue tint or the way markings blend (they shouldn't fyi).
I can handle the veining even though it looks like over-done Halloween makeup.
I utterly detest the over-exaggerated red eyes, not even Cheech and Chong had eyes so red.

If I have to look like a drag-queen done up for stage at stages 3 and upwards... where are my fangs ?

I don't know... I guess the passives and Elusive Mist are pretty good, but you'd think that with a large percentage of the population being blood-suckers they would make an effort to "revamp".

dodgehopper_ESO

MarzAttakz wrote: »

I utterly detest the shoddy way vampire textures, bump maps, blending modes and hue changes have been implemented by the design department. Lazy and amateur in my opinion.

I can handle pale, I cannot stomach the blue tint or the way markings blend (they shouldn't fyi).
I can handle the veining even though it looks like over-done Halloween makeup.
I utterly detest the over-exaggerated red eyes, not even Cheech and Chong had eyes so red.

If I have to look like a drag-queen done up for stage at stages 3 and upwards... where are my fangs ?

I don't know... I guess the passives and Elusive Mist are pretty good, but you'd think that with a large percentage of the population being blood-suckers they would make an effort to "revamp".

I'd much rather fangs as well. Rather than having disgusting eczema around the eyes I'd much rather see these fangs like the Vampire from the Blood Omen/Soul Reaver series:
Blood Omen 2 Cover

zaria

My main complain is cosmetic, they are ugly.
Also why does hair color keep but not Khajiit fur color?
Argonians looks even worse, summon clanfear did not work out so you cover it up by dressing it.

QuebraRegra

is this a nerf thread? seems like a nerf thread?

what's the current punishment for nerf threads not involving SORCs?

itscompton

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

OpponentSmile66 wrote: »

Gotta love how he fails to mention fire weakness. Fire is more abundant than lag and a Magic DK is a vampire's worst nightmare.

Try having more than 10k health next time. The fire weakness was worthwhile to speak of years ago. It is laughable now, barely a tickle. How do I know? I tank just about EVERYTHING as a Vampire on non DK's at Stage 4. I think that in and of itself should tell you something. I suppose if I was reliant on health regeneration I'd be in trouble.

This brings up the point I wanted to make. I feel like health should do something different than it does currently. I've offered ideas before but among them would include: across the board regeneration, stronger light and heavy attacks, stronger returns from light and heavy attacks. In short health should be more meaningful without being overpowered and perhaps the solution is to take away its max health benefits and instead put them in a general realm of 'healthiness'.

The rhetoric of 'gotta love how...' is also a weak way of framing your point. I'll grant to you the fire weakness issue if you grant me the value of undeath and stamina/magicka regeneration. My complaint in large part is that this game has become too much about the two 'DPS' stats. I just think a rethinking needs to be done and Vampirism in general needs a counterpart that is better than what Fighters Guild has to offer. There are a lot of points I'm making here and I realize that we're looking at a multivariable problem which means there is a high degree of complexity. If you change one thing it can effect 10 other things. I don't like Vampirism as it stands in an mmo setting. Were it to have a mutually exclusive skill line not accessible to Vampires that ran counter to it I wouldn't have a problem. This game needs a Dawnguard badly and no Fighters Guild is not it. If we want to get to theme there are FAR too many Vampires running around in daylight no less but I can live with that.

It is hard for me to feel badly about using a snide remark when your initial response to my post was snide. However, namecalling serves no purpose so I'll admit its a fair point - you should do the same. The issue here is that particularly in PvP there are gradients of Tankiness and DPS. It is not a either/or scenario. Magic and Stamina regeneration are very important to survivability as well as DPS. Magic and Stamina regeneration also make it possible to build insane burst and sustain so it is reasonable to expect that you should be less survivable. That extra stamina regeneration for a mage means more dodge rolling, interrupting, and cc breaking it could also be more weapon damage output on a stamina build. The magic regeneration means more self protection powers being fired off and more sustained damage output for a mage. In my view this dwarfs the minor loss of some health regeneration and a meager fire weakness. My statement of 'Try having more than 10k health' was hyperbole. 20,000 health is reasonable and to be honest even my DPS characters tend to exceed that by a small amount depending on race. You also need some level of resistance to make those health numbers meaningful for your resilience (effective vs. actual health). In that vein this is why sets like Spriggan are becoming more popular because punching a hole through the opponents armor can be very important in this game.

Please convince me I am wrong though. Tell me that health regeneration is on par as a stat to magicka and stamina.

So I'm reading vampire is OP because of the recovery of your secondary stat. Too much stam for mag users, too much mag for stam users. But the recovery bonus for Vamp is 10% and for most people the secondary stat has a base recovery rate of between 600-700. So a magic player is getting maybe 70 extra stam per second. Considering at level 50 the base cost of one dodge roll is upwards of 3600 stam that means they get ONE extra dodgeroll every 52 seconds. And a stamblade with 700 mag recovery would get ONE extra shadow cloak every 58 seconds. Even if we talk about a magblade with 2000 Mag recovery getting a boost to the primary stat it's ONE extra cloak every 20 seconds. I'd hardly call that game breaking OP.

dodgehopper_ESO

QuebraRegra wrote: »

is this a nerf thread? seems like a nerf thread?

what's the current punishment for nerf threads not involving SORCs?

Its more a 'the system needs changing' thread. I don't like the interplay of health/health regeneration in the system. I don't like the way Vampires are just too enticing to play given the state of the game rules as they exist. I'd personally like to see a mutually exclusive guild (Dawnguard type organization) to represent a clearer better counter to monster-play as well as offer non-monsters something worthwhile and unique. I'm tired of the Villainous concepts getting all the cool toys (Dark Brotherhood, Legerdemain, Vampire, Werewolf, Thieves Guild, Mages Guild). I know for some of you it is your belief Mages Guild is a heroic guild. I'd argue they are at best gray and at worst a cause of a lot of the Daedric nonsense plaguing Tamriel. They also help train budding young Necromancers and they're always ripping souls out of one thing to feed another thing. The mages guild also sees no moral conundrum in enslaving daedra against their will. While I do not think Daedra are generally nice guys it is a little strange to think therefore it is okay to enslave them on a permanent basis. In short mages guild is creepy. The one semi heroic faction in the game is Fighters Guild and they've now been infected with Daedric filth as well and one could argue that they are either also villainous due to being Mercenaries for hire or that they represent a standing army for a Daedra (Meridia). Thematically speaking the choice feels very thin. I actually think Conan had more heroic options.

Megabear

I don't have a vampire char.. I can't handle the cosmetic changes, makes your char look too ugly. And no, I'll leave my helmets "off" tyvm.

dodgehopper_ESO

itscompton wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

OpponentSmile66 wrote: »

Gotta love how he fails to mention fire weakness. Fire is more abundant than lag and a Magic DK is a vampire's worst nightmare.

Try having more than 10k health next time. The fire weakness was worthwhile to speak of years ago. It is laughable now, barely a tickle. How do I know? I tank just about EVERYTHING as a Vampire on non DK's at Stage 4. I think that in and of itself should tell you something. I suppose if I was reliant on health regeneration I'd be in trouble.

This brings up the point I wanted to make. I feel like health should do something different than it does currently. I've offered ideas before but among them would include: across the board regeneration, stronger light and heavy attacks, stronger returns from light and heavy attacks. In short health should be more meaningful without being overpowered and perhaps the solution is to take away its max health benefits and instead put them in a general realm of 'healthiness'.

The rhetoric of 'gotta love how...' is also a weak way of framing your point. I'll grant to you the fire weakness issue if you grant me the value of undeath and stamina/magicka regeneration. My complaint in large part is that this game has become too much about the two 'DPS' stats. I just think a rethinking needs to be done and Vampirism in general needs a counterpart that is better than what Fighters Guild has to offer. There are a lot of points I'm making here and I realize that we're looking at a multivariable problem which means there is a high degree of complexity. If you change one thing it can effect 10 other things. I don't like Vampirism as it stands in an mmo setting. Were it to have a mutually exclusive skill line not accessible to Vampires that ran counter to it I wouldn't have a problem. This game needs a Dawnguard badly and no Fighters Guild is not it. If we want to get to theme there are FAR too many Vampires running around in daylight no less but I can live with that.

It is hard for me to feel badly about using a snide remark when your initial response to my post was snide. However, namecalling serves no purpose so I'll admit its a fair point - you should do the same. The issue here is that particularly in PvP there are gradients of Tankiness and DPS. It is not a either/or scenario. Magic and Stamina regeneration are very important to survivability as well as DPS. Magic and Stamina regeneration also make it possible to build insane burst and sustain so it is reasonable to expect that you should be less survivable. That extra stamina regeneration for a mage means more dodge rolling, interrupting, and cc breaking it could also be more weapon damage output on a stamina build. The magic regeneration means more self protection powers being fired off and more sustained damage output for a mage. In my view this dwarfs the minor loss of some health regeneration and a meager fire weakness. My statement of 'Try having more than 10k health' was hyperbole. 20,000 health is reasonable and to be honest even my DPS characters tend to exceed that by a small amount depending on race. You also need some level of resistance to make those health numbers meaningful for your resilience (effective vs. actual health). In that vein this is why sets like Spriggan are becoming more popular because punching a hole through the opponents armor can be very important in this game.

Please convince me I am wrong though. Tell me that health regeneration is on par as a stat to magicka and stamina.

So I'm reading vampire is OP because of the recovery of your secondary stat. Too much stam for mag users, too much mag for stam users. But the recovery bonus for Vamp is 10% and for most people the secondary stat has a base recovery rate of between 600-700. So a magic player is getting maybe 70 extra stam per second. But considering at level 50 the base cost of one dodge roll is upwards of 3600 stam that means they get ONE extra dodgeroll every 52 seconds. And a stamblade with 700 mag recovery would get ONE extra shadow cloak every 58 seconds. Even if we talk about a magblade with 2000 Mag recovery getting a boost to the primary stat it's ONE extra cloak every 20 seconds. I'd hardly call that game breaking OP.

Please also read that 'health recovery stinks' in your equation. All health recovery does is make you die slightly slower than you would have died anyway and building for health recovery means that you hit people almost as hard as a delicate touch from a feather duster. There is a reason many people ignore health regeneration builds. The system itself is flawed that is my complaint. If they don't like Health and Health regeneration they need to change the paradigm. I realize that I"m discussing two issues here. There is the problem of Tank vs. Damage game rules and the problem that Vampire leans toward the Damage rules which are more favorable than the Tank rules. I think the method to salvage the system is to make Heavy Armor wearers more about light and heavy attacks (which is I believe what they intended) and a mild use of powers as needed to recover. I'm not suggesting burn the whole system but I am suggesting there are flaws. Lets compare here. The character with the 2k+ magic regeneration (on a nightblade) is also able to make excellent health returns by merit of firing off magical attacks and pumping out dps. The Health regeneration guy does what, swing his sword around? They aren't comparable. Even if you had 5,000 Health regeneration every 2 seconds your character would be laughable because his damage would be horrible and it would be double nerfed by battle spirit and soon defile. To make matters worse such a character does not represent any real threat beyond annoyance and maybe playing as a siege cannon turret.

BraidasNM

im not sure why zos nerfed health regen altogether when troll king was the issue

itscompton

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

OpponentSmile66 wrote: »

Gotta love how he fails to mention fire weakness. Fire is more abundant than lag and a Magic DK is a vampire's worst nightmare.

Try having more than 10k health next time. The fire weakness was worthwhile to speak of years ago. It is laughable now, barely a tickle. How do I know? I tank just about EVERYTHING as a Vampire on non DK's at Stage 4. I think that in and of itself should tell you something. I suppose if I was reliant on health regeneration I'd be in trouble.

This brings up the point I wanted to make. I feel like health should do something different than it does currently. I've offered ideas before but among them would include: across the board regeneration, stronger light and heavy attacks, stronger returns from light and heavy attacks. In short health should be more meaningful without being overpowered and perhaps the solution is to take away its max health benefits and instead put them in a general realm of 'healthiness'.

The rhetoric of 'gotta love how...' is also a weak way of framing your point. I'll grant to you the fire weakness issue if you grant me the value of undeath and stamina/magicka regeneration. My complaint in large part is that this game has become too much about the two 'DPS' stats. I just think a rethinking needs to be done and Vampirism in general needs a counterpart that is better than what Fighters Guild has to offer. There are a lot of points I'm making here and I realize that we're looking at a multivariable problem which means there is a high degree of complexity. If you change one thing it can effect 10 other things. I don't like Vampirism as it stands in an mmo setting. Were it to have a mutually exclusive skill line not accessible to Vampires that ran counter to it I wouldn't have a problem. This game needs a Dawnguard badly and no Fighters Guild is not it. If we want to get to theme there are FAR too many Vampires running around in daylight no less but I can live with that.

It is hard for me to feel badly about using a snide remark when your initial response to my post was snide. However, namecalling serves no purpose so I'll admit its a fair point - you should do the same. The issue here is that particularly in PvP there are gradients of Tankiness and DPS. It is not a either/or scenario. Magic and Stamina regeneration are very important to survivability as well as DPS. Magic and Stamina regeneration also make it possible to build insane burst and sustain so it is reasonable to expect that you should be less survivable. That extra stamina regeneration for a mage means more dodge rolling, interrupting, and cc breaking it could also be more weapon damage output on a stamina build. The magic regeneration means more self protection powers being fired off and more sustained damage output for a mage. In my view this dwarfs the minor loss of some health regeneration and a meager fire weakness. My statement of 'Try having more than 10k health' was hyperbole. 20,000 health is reasonable and to be honest even my DPS characters tend to exceed that by a small amount depending on race. You also need some level of resistance to make those health numbers meaningful for your resilience (effective vs. actual health). In that vein this is why sets like Spriggan are becoming more popular because punching a hole through the opponents armor can be very important in this game.

Please convince me I am wrong though. Tell me that health regeneration is on par as a stat to magicka and stamina.

So I'm reading vampire is OP because of the recovery of your secondary stat. Too much stam for mag users, too much mag for stam users. But the recovery bonus for Vamp is 10% and for most people the secondary stat has a base recovery rate of between 600-700. So a magic player is getting maybe 70 extra stam per second. But considering at level 50 the base cost of one dodge roll is upwards of 3600 stam that means they get ONE extra dodgeroll every 52 seconds. And a stamblade with 700 mag recovery would get ONE extra shadow cloak every 58 seconds. Even if we talk about a magblade with 2000 Mag recovery getting a boost to the primary stat it's ONE extra cloak every 20 seconds. I'd hardly call that game breaking OP.

Please also read that 'health recovery stinks' in your equation. All health recovery does is make you die slightly slower than you would have died anyway and building for health recovery means that you hit people almost as hard as a delicate touch from a feather duster. There is a reason many people ignore health regeneration builds. The system itself is flawed that is my complaint. If they don't like Health and Health regeneration they need to change the paradigm. I realize that I"m discussing two issues here. There is the problem of Tank vs. Damage game rules and the problem that Vampire leans toward the Damage rules which are more favorable than the Tank rules. I think the method to salvage the system is to make Heavy Armor wearers more about light and heavy attacks (which is I believe what they intended) and a mild use of powers as needed to recover. I'm not suggesting burn the whole system but I am suggesting there are flaws. Lets compare here. The character with the 2k+ magic regeneration (on a nightblade) is also able to make excellent health returns by merit of firing off magical attacks and pumping out dps. The Health regeneration guy does what, swing his sword around? They aren't comparable. Even if you had 5,000 Health regeneration every 2 seconds your character would be laughable because his damage would be horrible and it would be double nerfed by battle spirit and soon defile. To make matters worse such a character does not represent any real threat beyond annoyance and maybe playing as a siege cannon turret.

Please also read 25% extra fire damage in your equation. I can totally agree that reduced health recovery is not a truly detrimental effect to any build. But you keep conveniently leaving out the 25% extra damage you take from fire AT ALL TIMES FROM ALL SOURCES and arguing points such as there is no drawback that balances out getting to use an extra dodge roll, cloak or other secondary stat based ability ONCE EVERY 50 SECONDS. It really sounds like your problem shouldn't be with vampires but the overall lack of utility/neccesity to build for health recovery.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Vampirism has one major drawback that shows its head in PvP...Fire Weakness.

You see it very clearly when a large coordinated group comes along with several Eye of Flame users in tow...

The Vampires melt under the awesome power of Eye of Flame (Eye of Flame is strong enough; add 25% weakness to it and what do you have now?)....

The Vampires die and trigger Vicious Death...

Everyone else (who was weakened by Eye of Flames initial assault) die because of the VD Proc...

Minno

-10% Regen but must be vamp
-75% DMG mitigation but turns off mag Regen and you can't be healed. Can't Sprint while in mist form so major expedition is largely used on "walk".
- 20% healing per tick but based off your missing health. Gives off balance cc, ultimate gen, speed but DMG/healing locked in a channel.
- health per hit dot ultimate but costs 150.
- you take 25% extra DMG on fire attacks (not negates by DMG mitigation; you always take 25% extra fire DMG.
- there's a DMG enchant that deals 6k DMG on you
- fighters guild abilities deal extra DMG on you
- rune of protection fears you lol.

I'd say there are plenty of balanced pros/cons for ERPing as Nosferatu.

Onefrkncrzypope

I just wish that the Stam passive moves to werewolf. Drop the ult Stam recov and give it to the passive... Psst I just want my Stam characters to stay sexy... Without amberplasm

dodgehopper_ESO

Minno wrote: »

-10% Regen but must be vamp
-75% DMG mitigation but turns off mag Regen and you can't be healed. Can't Sprint while in mist form so major expedition is largely used on "walk".
- 20% healing per tick but based off your missing health. Gives off balance cc, ultimate gen, speed but DMG/healing locked in a channel.
- health per hit dot ultimate but costs 150.
- you take 25% extra DMG on fire attacks (not negates by DMG mitigation; you always take 25% extra fire DMG.
- there's a DMG enchant that deals 6k DMG on you
- fighters guild abilities deal extra DMG on you
- rune of protection fears you lol.

I'd say there are plenty of balanced pros/cons for ERPing as Nosferatu.

Unless something has changed the Fire Damage is mitigated by spell resistance but they are two separate calculations - I do not remember which calculation comes first however. Rune of protection is fine I suppose except that it gives you CC immunity, I'm not so sure that's the best choice of cc's.

I still stand by my complaints about Health regeneration, Health, and the fact that Vampire plays into the 'meta' of the game that focuses on damage output.

The point earlier by @TheDoomsdayMonster about Eye of the Storm is a fair point I suppose in tandem with vicious death. Lets make something clear though: I believe that Gear Sets are a pox on all MMO's. I would love to see them done away with as they are a great way to ruin game balance and destroy classes. Often class balance (and other skills) are adjusted to deal with a problem that set bonuses cause, because those set bonuses are overpowered. The set bonuses have to be overpowered to get people to hop on the hamster wheel that is called Dungeon Grinding. What I want to know is what happened to achievement-based gameplay? I can remember when people wanted to do things purely for the joy of doing them in MMO's. This isn't just an ESO problem its a cancer on all games. I think that's why they're always calling certain sets 'cancer'. This goes back to my point about multivariable calculations. The more variables you inject into a system the more complex that system gets and the harder it is for mere mortals to balance.

Rohamad_Ali

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Very little weakness ? Ever been under a oil when someone hits Dawnbreaker ? I don't care how tanky you are that's a bad vampire situation . Cold fire with oils is a death sentence . Vampire has many weaknesses . See a vampire tank and don't have a interupt on your class , hit them with silver bolts .

To be fair - Cold Fire with Oils hurts just about everyone. In this respect situational awareness is key for everyone, but perhaps slightly more for a Vampire. I'm just not convinced of the balance in this aspect of the game, and I've looked sideways at it essentially since the outset.

On the matter of art I also have to agree. I do not mind the paleness but I do mind the strange rash everyone gets around the eyes. I mind the fact that I have a khajiit nightblade who despite having a Black Mane only turns gray all over his hairy body with the exclusion of his facial hair. I mind the fact that my beautiful crocodile green Argonian turns blue-white. I can understand getting paler, but Vampirism does a completely strange thing with the color palette. I didn't want to get into the artistic element of Vampires though.

I want to talk about the fact that Fighters Guild should be mutually exclusive to Vampirism and should have competitive abilities both passive and active. In addition they need to stop balancing the game as if Health Regeneration were equal to Magic and Stamina regeneration. The health regeneration 'nerf' vampires receive is a joke and while talking about Tankpires lets not forget how annoying mist form can be. You are right that getting CC'd while under oil, getting cold fired is a bane of Vampires, but I would posit that what you just described is a bane to any tank.

Silver Bolts is shite. Silver Leash should work like chain pull. It always should have. Its a weapon skill line. You're pulling in the lead. Why does this only work on magicka? In short: Make Fighters Guild Great Again (or at least for once). I'm tired of this game being Elder Monsters online.

You are correct about silver bolts but I was referring to the utility of the knockdown . If you are posting this because you want Fighters Guild abilities improved then I agree but do not see a reason to nerf vampire . It has been nerfed enough already . I only have one vampire character because I love playing vampire and it compliments NB . My other builds would suck with vampirism and it is not a end all need for builds .

Drakkdjinn

OpponentSmile66 wrote: »

Gotta love how he fails to mention fire weakness. Fire is more abundant than lag and a Magic DK is a vampire's worst nightmare.

.

Unless of course they elusive mist away from the mag dk's range -- which they all do. How is a mag dk to close the gap -- oh ya: they be vampires. See the silliness yet?