Why to hell i cant use 2 5piece sets and a complete monsterset with 2H (continue) - change needful?

DeHei

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

STEVIL wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

I ask a simply question to all:
How would you think, when magicka builds would be supported from DW and 1H+S and these weapontypes just calculated with max magicka and spelldamage (heavy attacks would bring back magicka) like they actually do with staminabuilds. Now you need to look on our side, what would you do?

I am really interested in all answers!

i have already said both stam and magica need to have at least one 12pc option that returns their stat. So moving them all over to magica and leaving stamina out in the cold is no good.

I just do not agree that overhauling 4 of the six current weapon lines to remove some of their diversity is a better, easier, safer or more elegant solution than just adding a melee magica two-weapon skill line.

It was not alone for you. This question now is for all, who dont see the problem.. only with opening there mind they get an idea how magicka player feel...
Other like you or me just need to read the facts..

DeHei

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

tonemd wrote: »

As much as they catered to the Skyrim crowd I never understood why there was no spell+Sword option.

I would prefer 1-handed wands or gloves, (dual tuning forks). There definately should be a magic dual wield option separate from dual wield . Then get rid of the spell power bonus in dual wield, its so stupid.

But when you agree, there is no option for magicka user, why do you press "no change needed, i dont see the problem"?

STEVIL

A new magicka dual wield option should be integrated in TESO, that all have same possibilitys for builds

DeHei wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

I ask a simply question to all:
How would you think, when magicka builds would be supported from DW and 1H+S and these weapontypes just calculated with max magicka and spelldamage (heavy attacks would bring back magicka) like they actually do with staminabuilds. Now you need to look on our side, what would you do?

I am really interested in all answers!

i have already said both stam and magica need to have at least one 12pc option that returns their stat. So moving them all over to magica and leaving stamina out in the cold is no good.

I just do not agree that overhauling 4 of the six current weapon lines to remove some of their diversity is a better, easier, safer or more elegant solution than just adding a melee magica two-weapon skill line.

It was not alone for you. This question now is for all, who dont see the problem.. only with opening there mind they get an idea how magicka player feel...
Other like you or me just need to read the facts..

Right... i did not say it was just for me, i just answered the question where you asked all to respond.

You seem confused by that.

SirAndy

No change need, i dont see the problem

STEVIL wrote: »

You seem confused by that.

It would seem we have another one of those "Hey, what's your opinion" polls where the original poster only wants opinions that match his own.

DeHei

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

SirAndy wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

You seem confused by that.

It would seem we have another one of those "Hey, what's your opinion" polls where the original poster only wants opinions that match his own.

I dont have a problem with other opinions. I just want a argumentation for them to honor it.
Else i will ask question after question until i see the real reason for this other opinion

@SirAndy It wasnt very difficult to understand, that you dont agree it, with any argumentation. You will never accept it, doesnt matter when 90% of all arguments speak for it here. Its ok for me, that your niveau isnt high enough, to think about complexe thematics.
Only think you spoke was something like "2H is 1 piece.."
Sry that isnt an argument, that is just a fact how it actually works. Everybody knows it and you dont need to say this again and again..

SodanTok

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

SirAndy wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

If anything is dead horse it is argument "2H is 1 piece"

A two handed weapon is still just ONE weapon. It doesn't matter how many hands you need to hold it.

One weapon, one item. It really does not get any simpler than that.

Yes it is. What makes it dead horse argument is keep saying it like it means anything. Anytime ZoS can come and say "2H weapons are now worth 2 set bonuses instead of one" and in no way would it 'endanger' the logic of "2H is one piece"

And that is just the obvious way to bring 12th set bonus to 2H. All others are not even related to it being one piece (like creating another piece)

SirAndy

No change need, i dont see the problem

DeHei wrote: »

Its ok for me, that your niveau isnt high enough, to think about complexe thematics

olsborg

for 2h melee or bow, yes, not for staff

Ranger209

Ok, just got done watching Bill Maher and Religulous so I am going to have to subject you to the skeptic in me.
In regards to those saying that allowing 2 handers to be counted as 2 pieces or 2 slots of a 5 piece bonus would make them overpowered I ask how? How would it make these weapon lines any more powerful than they currently are? The skill line abilities would remain the same, they are what they are, so there is no difference there. I would assume there are certain set combinations, presently unusable, that would become usable and that the issue would lie here. If there is some other issue that I am missing please point it out.

So what 5 piece combinations currently untenable with current 2 handers would make them OP by allowing a 2 hander and 4 pieces of armor, or a 2 hander, 1 piece of armor and 3 pieces of jewelry to attain the 5 pc. bonus? I am saying that I don't think there would be much difference at all, but I don't claim to off the top of my head know every 5 pc. bonus out there. If someone has some examples please share them.

For the sake of argument lets assume gear for someone who is using 2 hander/bow or any combination of staffs as these are the worst case scenarios (2 hander front/2 hander back) and thus have the greatest chance to yield the largest power difference. Which sets would be viable, that aren't currently viable, and make an impactful difference if they made this change?

Bobby_V_Rockit

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

The tradeoff should be limited to 2h getting only 1 enchant

Joy_Division

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

SirAndy wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

If anything is dead horse it is argument "2H is 1 piece"

A two handed weapon is still just ONE weapon. It doesn't matter how many hands you need to hold it.

One weapon, one item. It really does not get any simpler than that.

Yet two gloves somehow makes one item. As does two boots. Yet two swords makes two items. However bow and an arrow are two items, but somehow one set bonus.

Not so simple.

Andele

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

This was explained a million times, item slots are the resource (not the item itself which is functionally skin + dropdown choice), thus how many slot are used = how many set bonuses it should give.

DeHei

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

SirAndy wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Its ok for me, that your niveau isnt high enough, to think about complexe thematics

Yeah this supports my thinking about you

olsborg wrote: »

for 2h melee or bow, yes, not for staff

All 2H weapons.. but i explain again.

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

The tradeoff should be limited to 2h getting only 1 enchant

For sure 1 enchant.

Ranger209 wrote: »

Ok, just got done watching Bill Maher and Religulous so I am going to have to subject you to the skeptic in me.
In regards to those saying that allowing 2 handers to be counted as 2 pieces or 2 slots of a 5 piece bonus would make them overpowered I ask how? How would it make these weapon lines any more powerful than they currently are? The skill line abilities would remain the same, they are what they are, so there is no difference there. I would assume there are certain set combinations, presently unusable, that would become usable and that the issue would lie here. If there is some other issue that I am missing please point it out.

So what 5 piece combinations currently untenable with current 2 handers would make them OP by allowing a 2 hander and 4 pieces of armor, or a 2 hander, 1 piece of armor and 3 pieces of jewelry to attain the 5 pc. bonus? I am saying that I don't think there would be much difference at all, but I don't claim to off the top of my head know every 5 pc. bonus out there. If someone has some examples please share them.

For the sake of argument lets assume gear for someone who is using 2 hander/bow or any combination of staffs as these are the worst case scenarios (2 hander front/2 hander back) and thus have the greatest chance to yield the largest power difference. Which sets would be viable, that aren't currently viable, and make an impactful difference if they made this change?

All arguments here are just for trialsetups.. in common dungeons it really doesnt matter, if the effectivness isnt 100%, but i trials for some archivments we need nearly 100% from everyone.

Indeed. Simply morphing them to give 2 set pieces would make them overpowered. The weapons for themself are good balanced, i think. 1 of the main issues to create this thread was for example tanking over froststaff. Main argument, that this nearly isnt used in trials, cause of not giving the 2th 5piecebonus with a full monsterset. This 5 5 2 is as much powerful to just thinking about it using a froststaff.

Another issue is that we only have Magicka supporting weapons with destrostaff. I would allready be happy if we had a magicka version of dual wield, but we dont have. The options now to use 2x Destrostaff, to have only your buildsupporting weapons. Buildsupportweapons are more important after Morrorwindpatch, because your light attacks give more damage and heavy attacks give sustain.
Other possibility to use them is to lose the full monsterbonus, to get 2x 5piece boni. Best option in my opinion is actually wearing full monsterset, 1 5pieceset, 3Willpower/3trialjuwelry and vMSA Destrostaffs.
Last option with wearing dual wield swords (trialgear!!!)give best stats, but dont support your magickaplaystyle. 2 swords with useful trait need to drop first to get this option and its not reachable for 99% of the people.
You need to do trials to get trialgear. There are enough player, which do enough DPS for example over selfcrafted gear to get the possibility to run with a trialgroup. Many more dont will have access.
I dont like this dual wield option, because of not supporting my playstyle, they give best stats, but i lose enough damage with using them.
While magickauser use trialproccgear like moondancer with dual wield over the backbar, can staminauser us it as mainbar. Its not my opinion, its just a fact.

In total every player would get same possibility to buildcreation with a new magickadualwieldweapon. We would only have this BiS weaponbuilds: dualwield/bow for stamina and magickadualwield/destro for magicka.
This would be ok, but wouldnt fix the other problem. To make weapons like froststaff as an option for tanking we need to transfort them to 2 setpieces. For example Healer could use a full monsterset too with it, they actually miss that completly, cause there werent good monsterset, which are needful and they could compensate that. With next patch we get a monsterset for healer, which should be absolutly BiS and we get trouble.. Which 5 piecebonus they want to lose?
You see the problem?

I dont want op weapons, but with making 2H wepons to 2 setslots, there would be more options for any build and unexpected of using a special weapon. 2H/bow is possible and dual wield/bow and both could create the same build..
Sure they really would need to rebalance this weapons, v
but for me its the logically consequence after last changes and comming changes. So i would prefer it

Eirella

A new magicka dual wield option should be integrated in TESO, that all have same possibilitys for builds

I'd like a one hand and rune weapon line, or something similar.

W0lf_z13

No change need, i dont see the problem

as many others have stated ... 2h counts as one piece because its ONE weapon ... they ( im assuming ) did this so people had to make a choice ... for magicka builds its either dw swords OR staves ... staves for regen or swords for a little damage boost and a second 5 piece and for 2h stam weapons its either an extra 5 piece set or a good head from rally

DeHei

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

as many others have stated ... 2h counts as one piece because its ONE weapon ... they ( im assuming ) did this so people had to make a choice ... for magicka builds its either dw swords OR staves ... staves for regen or swords for a little damage boost and a second 5 piece and for 2h stam weapons its either an extra 5 piece set or a good head from rally

I dont explain again, it isnt an good option!
When there would be only a dual wield option for Magickabuilds and no for stamina, would you use it for a bit damage boost and think its a good option?? Or would you make trouble until you get the same or a better option for all?

W0lf_z13

No change need, i dont see the problem

DeHei wrote: »

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

as many others have stated ... 2h counts as one piece because its ONE weapon ... they ( im assuming ) did this so people had to make a choice ... for magicka builds its either dw swords OR staves ... staves for regen or swords for a little damage boost and a second 5 piece and for 2h stam weapons its either an extra 5 piece set or a good head from rally

I dont explain again, it isnt an good option!
When there would be only a dual wield option for Magickabuilds and no for stamina, would you use it for a bit damage boost and think its a good option?? Or would you make trouble until you get the same or a better option for all?

my main is an mDK ( dw/destro for pve and i dw/resto for pvp ) i find no issues with it ..... I've gone destro'resto with him before but didnt like the feel of it ... personally i dont think it needs to be changed

Bobby_V_Rockit

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

2H should count as two SET pieces as it occupies two slots. It should be differentiated from DW by having only one enchantment and less weapon damage, just like it does now. So pretty much no changes necessary except letting it count for both slots it fills.

Emma_Overload

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

I'm glad people aren't letting this issue die, because it should have been addressed YEARS ago!

I agree with everyone who is saying it's the slots that matter. Two slots should equal two set bonuses, period.

DeHei

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

as many others have stated ... 2h counts as one piece because its ONE weapon ... they ( im assuming ) did this so people had to make a choice ... for magicka builds its either dw swords OR staves ... staves for regen or swords for a little damage boost and a second 5 piece and for 2h stam weapons its either an extra 5 piece set or a good head from rally

I dont explain again, it isnt an good option!
When there would be only a dual wield option for Magickabuilds and no for stamina, would you use it for a bit damage boost and think its a good option?? Or would you make trouble until you get the same or a better option for all?

my main is an mDK ( dw/destro for pve and i dw/resto for pvp ) i find no issues with it ..... I've gone destro'resto with him before but didnt like the feel of it ... personally i dont think it needs to be changed

Pls go to the dummy and just spam your flame lash with light attacks between. 1 run with DW and then with firestaff. Maybe you dont see this as a better option, because you dont use light attacks between your skill. You should try and say us your DPS here. I know many templar too, who just spam there skills. In PvP this maybe works but not when you need all DPS you can get..
But i can understand that point.. its a very relaxed playstyle, just spamming skills, sustain over sets or heavy attacks from staff.

BloodWolfe

No change need, i dont see the problem

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

2H should count as two SET pieces as it occupies two slots. It should be differentiated from DW by having only one enchantment and less weapon damage, just like it does now. So pretty much no changes necessary except letting it count for both slots it fills.

It's still one item wielded by using both hands so no it doesn't make sense to give it 2 set bonuses as if it were 2 items. BUT, by some of the so-called "logic" I'm seeing here by those crying for 2h to get 2 set bonuses, what about gloves and boots? I mean, those are actually 2 items each (1 on each hand and 1 on each foot) so should those also get double set bonuses? LOL see how ridiculous that sounds? Same thing regarding the 2h weapons. Every race, class, weapon, armor, ability, etc... has different pros and cons, pick and choose but don't try to make everything exactly the same.

You guys need to stop with this crying, 2h weapons do more damage, they have other benefits and this is a con of 2h weapons while 1h has different cons. The who point is to make strategic decisions on what weapon(s) to use, not so every single weapon is exactly the same in the end with different appearances.

DeHei

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

BloodWolfe wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

2H should count as two SET pieces as it occupies two slots. It should be differentiated from DW by having only one enchantment and less weapon damage, just like it does now. So pretty much no changes necessary except letting it count for both slots it fills.

It's still one item wielded by using both hands so no it doesn't make sense to give it 2 set bonuses as if it were 2 items. BUT, by some of the so-called "logic" I'm seeing here by those crying for 2h to get 2 set bonuses, what about gloves and boots? I mean, those are actually 2 items each (1 on each hand and 1 on each foot) so should those also get double set bonuses? LOL see how ridiculous that sounds? Same thing regarding the 2h weapons. Every race, class, weapon, armor, ability, etc... has different pros and cons, pick and choose but don't try to make everything exactly the same.

You guys need to stop with this crying, 2h weapons do more damage, they have other benefits and this is a con of 2h weapons while 1h has different cons. The who point is to make strategic decisions on what weapon(s) to use, not so every single weapon is exactly the same in the end with different appearances.

With your argumentation, 2H are the only items, which block 2 itemslots but just give 1 setbonus!

Ty for understanding..

Crom_CCCXVI

It's good the way it is....

The last thing we need is Viper, Selenes AND some other cheap ass set proccing from a bow or something stupid.
one hit for 3000 damage, and 15000 in Proc's ... great skill!

DeHei

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

It's good the way it is....

The last thing we need is Viper, Selenes AND some other cheap ass set proccing from a bow or something stupid.
one hit for 3000 damage, and 15000 in Proc's ... great skill!

I think you are in wrong thread man.. procc sets are surely another discussion and btw they can activated from all weapontypes...

Thrymbauld

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

It's good the way it is....

The last thing we need is Viper, Selenes AND some other cheap ass set proccing from a bow or something stupid.
one hit for 3000 damage, and 15000 in Proc's ... great skill!

That would indeed be stupid.....considering that viper and selenes are both melee range procs that do diddly at bow range it'd be a waste of two set bonuses!

Of course, Viper, Selenes, and some other cheap set proccing from dual wield happens all the time. Or Viper, Selenes, and several hundred weapon power(more than the difference between a two hander and two one handers) also happens all the time. I mean, imagine if somebody hit you with a two handed axe and procced Viper, Selene, and Red Mountain! It'd be exactly equally as bad as if they'd hit you with two daggers!

It really is a pretty simple balance problem. Dual Wield(and as a lesser problem, 1h/shield) wind up with three full set bonuses and all two handed weapons do not. As a direct result, dual wield handily outperforms two handed weapons, both on paper and in actual application not only because of proc access, but also because of the hundreds of weapon power potential that a third bonus can give.

So I guess the better question, in terms of balance, would be: Do you let two handed weapons get the third set bonus or take it away from dual wield/1h shield? If it simply got taken away from the double weapon loadouts, that'd eliminate triple procs and would force a choice between a second damage proc or a statistical set bonus. Honestly, that seems like it might be the better way to go to me.

Waffennacht

I want it to happen because I know it'll make me stronger.

I don't know if it should happen because I feel the DW and SnB lines are purposely lacking skills to compensate for having x2 weapons. If a 2H counted as 2 Weapons, I feel DW and SnB should be compensated?

DeHei

2H weapons should give 2 setslots (several possibilitys to realise it are possible)

Waffennacht wrote: »

I want it to happen because I know it'll make me stronger.

I don't know if it should happen because I feel the DW and SnB lines are purposely lacking skills to compensate for having x2 weapons. If a 2H counted as 2 Weapons, I feel DW and SnB should be compensated?

Its not something like you wrote.. I dont want to write 4th or 5th time same things.. If you interested in the reasons, pls look last 20 posts or you need to look on the complete thread.

Ranger209

DeHei wrote: »

Indeed. Simply morphing them to give 2 set pieces would make them overpowered.



How does this make them overpowered from what they are now? What added bonus do you foresee them getting from this that is overpowered? I am looking for specific examples of how this would make them overpowered versus how they sit right now. Would they become more powerful? Potentially, but how much more powerful, what is the worst case scenario you can think of? I don't believe that worst case scenario will make them significantly more powerful than they already are by using front bar back bar 5 piece sets. It will just make the bonuses more seamless.

I don't mind the magicka dual wield answer either, but that to me would be more difficult to implement than just allowing the 2 handers to count as 2 slots toward a 5 slot bonus. If I am missing something please point it out.

Ranger209

BloodWolfe wrote: »

It's still one item wielded by using both hands so no it doesn't make sense to give it 2 set bonuses as if it were 2 items. BUT, by some of the so-called "logic" I'm seeing here by those crying for 2h to get 2 set bonuses, what about gloves and boots? I mean, those are actually 2 items each (1 on each hand and 1 on each foot) so should those also get double set bonuses? LOL see how ridiculous that sounds? Same thing regarding the 2h weapons. Every race, class, weapon, armor, ability, etc... has different pros and cons, pick and choose but don't try to make everything exactly the same.

This is actually the inverse logic. What it boils down to is the semantics of the bonus, which is why I think they should change it to a 5 SLOT bonus from a 5 PIECE bonus.

In your example there are 2 pieces occupying 1 slot. What we are looking at is 1 piece occupying 2 slots. Your example illustrates as well how calling them "piece" bonuses really is a misnomer as the ultimately important aspect of this is how many slots do they occupy. Therefore a slot bonus is really a more accurate description of what is going on.

W0lf_z13

No change need, i dont see the problem

DeHei wrote: »

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

as many others have stated ... 2h counts as one piece because its ONE weapon ... they ( im assuming ) did this so people had to make a choice ... for magicka builds its either dw swords OR staves ... staves for regen or swords for a little damage boost and a second 5 piece and for 2h stam weapons its either an extra 5 piece set or a good head from rally

I dont explain again, it isnt an good option!
When there would be only a dual wield option for Magickabuilds and no for stamina, would you use it for a bit damage boost and think its a good option?? Or would you make trouble until you get the same or a better option for all?

my main is an mDK ( dw/destro for pve and i dw/resto for pvp ) i find no issues with it ..... I've gone destro'resto with him before but didnt like the feel of it ... personally i dont think it needs to be changed

Pls go to the dummy and just spam your flame lash with light attacks between. 1 run with DW and then with firestaff. Maybe you dont see this as a better option, because you dont use light attacks between your skill. You should try and say us your DPS here. I know many templar too, who just spam there skills. In PvP this maybe works but not when you need all DPS you can get..
But i can understand that point.. its a very relaxed playstyle, just spamming skills, sustain over sets or heavy attacks from staff.

actually... i DO use light attacks between my skills ... i have a very set rotation and i do fairly well with it. Between weapon swapping to the destro bar for a light attack on that bar and buffing up as well as weaving in light attacks on my dw bar