On the Passive Bonuses Granted by Master/ Maelstrom Weapons

Joysheeped

This topic will only discuss the magnitude of the passive bonuses granted by the Master/ Maelstrom Weapons because that part is one of the focus of the latest patch (3.1.0).

On the latest PTS patch, 1-4-piece Max Health/ Stamina/ Magicka bonuses were increased by 13.3% and Weapon/ Spell Critical were increased by 55%. However, a quick login into the PTS reveals that all the passive bonuses/ enchantments of these weapons remain unchanged. Let's look at all the passive bonuses of Master and Maelstrom Weapons:

Master Inferno/ Ice/ Lighting Staff: 1032 Max Magicka
Master Restoration Staff: 1032 Max Magicka
Master Bow: 1032 Max Stamina
Master Dagger: 94 Weapon Damage
Master Greatsword: 189 Weapon Damage
Master Sword: 774 Max Health

The Maelstrom's Inferno/ Ice/ Lighting Staff: 189 Spell Damage
The Maelstrom's Restoration Staff: 668 Spell Critical
The Maelstrom Dagger/ Axe: 94 Weapon Damage
The Maelstrom Greatsword/ Battle Axe/ Maul: 189 Weapon Damage
The Maelstrom's Sword/ Mace: 774 Max Health


The first obvious matter I would like to point out is the lack of change to those passive bonuses involving Max Stat and Critical, meaning Master Destruction Staves, Master Restoration Staves, Master Bows, Master Sword, Maelstrom Restoration Staves and Maelstrom Swords/ Maces got indirect nerfs because of the 1-4-piece bonuses change. Of course, a possible reason to the lack of change is because the developers actually wanted to reduce the potency of those weapons. However, I personally do not believe this is the case because (please feel free to skip my reasoning if you find it obvious/ boring/ etc.):

1) For Master Swords and Maelstrom Sword/ Mace, in PvE, with the change to the Infused trait, I see little reason running setups other than 2/ 5/ 5 and Infused Crusher Enchantment for Trial Tanks while in PvP, although I am not 100% sure with my very limited knowledge in PvP, I simply do not think they are very effective;

2) for Master Destruction Staves, while it is not a bad idea to reduce the cost and increase the (upfront only, if I am not mistaken) damage of Destructive Touch considering players often knocking players back on the bridges with Destructive Reach and Reach/ Clench is an acceptable (just acceptable because it costs a lot, in my opinion) DoT in PvE, the Weapon/ Spell Damage Enchantment is, in my opinion, stronger than the active component of the enchantments of the Master Destruction Staves;

3) for Master Restoration Staves, while it is true that it is a strong tool in both PvE and PvP, note that in PvE Trial Healers usually run 5/ 5/ 1 (usually SPC + Worm/ IA/ Mending/ MA/ Twilight), so running a Master Restoration Staff means that particular healer cannot run 6 light/ 1 heavy, run any 1-piece Monster Set nor poisons; if we notice PvE Raid Healers also need to throw a large amount of Healing Orbs and Combat Prayers (and other support skills), the Stamina return from the enchantment is by no means overpowered and thus there is little reason for Master Restoration Staves to give less Magicka than the new 1-piece Max Magicka bonus, not to mention one of the new Undaunted Mask gives BOTH Max Magicka AND Max Stamina as a 1-piece bonus which is attractive to (Templar) Healers for CC Break/ Block Cast/ Power of the Light for Minor Breach and Fracture.

4) for Master Bows, in PvE, unless in fights with a significant amount of movement, The Maelstrom Bows crush Master Bows into dusts, especially the Infused Trait is getting even stronger. In PvP, Master Bow is a very decent choice. However, if we look at the active component of the enchantment, it is actually comparable to a Weapon/ Spell Damage Enchantment. Therefore, the passive bonuses of Master bows should not be less than the new 1-4-piece Max Stamina bonus;

5) for The Maelstrom Restoration Staves, 481 Magicka return for every 4s, i.e. 240.5 Magicka Recovery with 100% Regeneration uptime which cannot be affected by any %amp from passives and CP; in PvE Raids it is not an effective skill because it consumes 1 GCD with HoTs to just 2 people whom may not be the ones you want to heal and Healers are probably so tight on skill slots and they are unable to even slot this skill, not to mention Healers, in the current and upcoming meta (Healers are going to have more Magicka Recovery next patch because of the buff to The Atronach Mundus Stone), do not need the extra Magicka return from these staves; Master Restoration Staves are simply far superior to this ones. For PvP, again, I am not sure but I can see these staves have their uses in small group PvP, but again, the active component of this enchantment is rather lacking and thus I would prefer running 2 different 5-piece on 2 different bars personally.

Therefore, if the developers believe that the Max Stat and Critical 1-4-piece bonuses was less powerful than they are supposed to be, the amount of the passive bonuses of the relevant Master/ Maelstrom Weapons should also be adjusted.


The second matter, which is also rather obvious but I do not think it was discussed is the ratio of passive bonuses granted from these special weapons to the ordinary 1-4-piece bonuses. If we look at the old values#

Master Inferno/ Ice/ Lighting Staff: 1032 Max Magicka = ~1.067*Max Magicka bonus
Master Restoration Staff: 1032 Max Magicka = ~1.067*Max Magicka bonus
Master Bow: 1032 Max Stamina = ~1.067*Max Stamina bonus
Master Dagger: 94 Weapon Damage = ~0.729*Weapon Damage bonus
Master Greatsword: 189 Weapon Damage = ~1.465*Weapon Damage bonus
Master Sword: 774 Max Health = ~0.727*Max Health bonus

The Maelstrom's Inferno/ Ice/ Lighting Staff: 189 Spell Damage = ~1.465*Spell Damage bonus
The Maelstrom's Restoration Staff: 668 Spell Critical = Spell Critical bonus
The Maelstrom Dagger/ Axe: 94 Weapon Damage = ~0.729*Weapon Damage bonus
The Maelstrom Greatsword/ Battle Axe/ Maul: 189 Weapon Damage = ~1.465*Weapon Damage bonus
The Maelstrom's Sword/ Mace: 774 Max Health = ~0.727*Max Health bonus

#Old values: 1064 Max Health, 967 Max Magicka/ Stamina, 129 Spell Damage, 688 Spell Critical

Therefore, the extra Spell Critical and Max Magicka/ Stamina (1 ~ 1.067) granted from these weapons are significantly less than the Max Health and Spell/ Weapon Damage (1.455 ~ 1.465) from these weapons. Considering how strong The Maelstrom Bows (especially with the buff to the Infused trait) and Destruction Staves are, there is little reason for Master Destruction Staves, Master Bows, Master/ The Maelstrom Restoration Staves to have significant weaker passive enchantments than the rest.


Thank you everyone for reading and if there is anything I should add, anything I am wrong or any argument I made is incorrect/ debatable please let me know so that I can adjust this post accordingly.

@ZOS_GinaBruno could you please pass this to the team working on the item sets? Because I believe one of the main goal of this patch is the balance the bonuses granted from all kinds and Master/ The Maelstrom Weapons are definitely part of the most used sets and thus I think they should also be adjusted in this patch as well. Thank you for your help in advance.

Lord_Eomer

Joysheeped wrote: »

This topic will only discuss the magnitude of the passive bonuses granted by the Master/ Maelstrom Weapons because that part is one of the focus of the latest patch (3.1.0).

On the latest PTS patch, 1-4-piece Max Health/ Stamina/ Magicka bonuses were increased by 13.3% and Weapon/ Spell Critical were increased by 55%. However, a quick login into the PTS reveals that all the passive bonuses/ enchantments of these weapons remain unchanged. Let's look at all the passive bonuses of Master and Maelstrom Weapons:

Master Inferno/ Ice/ Lighting Staff: 1032 Max Magicka
Master Restoration Staff: 1032 Max Magicka
Master Bow: 1032 Max Stamina
Master Dagger: 94 Weapon Damage
Master Greatsword: 189 Weapon Damage
Master Sword: 774 Max Health

The Maelstrom's Inferno/ Ice/ Lighting Staff: 189 Spell Damage
The Maelstrom's Restoration Staff: 668 Spell Critical
The Maelstrom Dagger/ Axe: 94 Weapon Damage
The Maelstrom Greatsword/ Battle Axe/ Maul: 189 Weapon Damage
The Maelstrom's Sword/ Mace: 774 Max Health


The first obvious matter I would like to point out is the lack of change to those passive bonuses involving Max Stat and Critical, meaning Master Destruction Staves, Master Restoration Staves, Master Bows, Master Sword, Maelstrom Restoration Staves and Maelstrom Swords/ Maces got indirect nerfs because of the 1-4-piece bonuses change. Of course, a possible reason to the lack of change is because the developers actually wanted to reduce the potency of those weapons. However, I personally do not believe this is the case because (please feel free to skip my reasoning if you find it obvious/ boring/ etc.):

1) For Master Swords and Maelstrom Sword/ Mace, in PvE, with the change to the Infused trait, I see little reason running setups other than 2/ 5/ 5 and Infused Crusher Enchantment for Trial Tanks while in PvP, although I am not 100% sure with my very limited knowledge in PvP, I simply do not think they are very effective;

2) for Master Destruction Staves, while it is not a bad idea to reduce the cost and increase the (upfront only, if I am not mistaken) damage of Destructive Touch considering players often knocking players back on the bridges with Destructive Reach and Reach/ Clench is an acceptable (just acceptable because it costs a lot, in my opinion) DoT in PvE, the Weapon/ Spell Damage Enchantment is, in my opinion, stronger than the active component of the enchantments of the Master Destruction Staves;

3) for Master Restoration Staves, while it is true that it is a strong tool in both PvE and PvP, note that in PvE Trial Healers usually run 5/ 5/ 1 (usually SPC + Worm/ IA/ Mending/ MA/ Twilight), so running a Master Restoration Staff means that particular healer cannot run 6 light/ 1 heavy, run any 1-piece Monster Set nor poisons; if we notice PvE Raid Healers also need to throw a large amount of Healing Orbs and Combat Prayers (and other support skills), the Stamina return from the enchantment is by no means overpowered and thus there is little reason for Master Restoration Staves to give less Magicka than the new 1-piece Max Magicka bonus, not to mention one of the new Undaunted Mask gives BOTH Max Magicka AND Max Stamina as a 1-piece bonus which is attractive to (Templar) Healers for CC Break/ Block Cast/ Power of the Light for Minor Breach and Fracture.

4) for Master Bows, in PvE, unless in fights with a significant amount of movement, The Maelstrom Bows crush Master Bows into dusts, especially the Infused Trait is getting even stronger. In PvP, Master Bow is a very decent choice. However, if we look at the active component of the enchantment, it is actually comparable to a Weapon/ Spell Damage Enchantment. Therefore, the passive bonuses of Master bows should not be less than the new 1-4-piece Max Stamina bonus;

5) for The Maelstrom Restoration Staves, 481 Magicka return for every 4s, i.e. 240.5 Magicka Recovery with 100% Regeneration uptime which cannot be affected by any %amp from passives and CP; in PvE Raids it is not an effective skill because it consumes 1 GCD with HoTs to just 2 people whom may not be the ones you want to heal and Healers are probably so tight on skill slots and they are unable to even slot this skill, not to mention Healers, in the current and upcoming meta (Healers are going to have more Magicka Recovery next patch because of the buff to The Atronach Mundus Stone), do not need the extra Magicka return from these staves; Master Restoration Staves are simply far superior to this ones. For PvP, again, I am not sure but I can see these staves have their uses in small group PvP, but again, the active component of this enchantment is rather lacking and thus I would prefer running 2 different 5-piece on 2 different bars personally.

Therefore, if the developers believe that the Max Stat and Critical 1-4-piece bonuses was less powerful than they are supposed to be, the amount of the passive bonuses of the relevant Master/ Maelstrom Weapons should also be adjusted.


The second matter, which is also rather obvious but I do not think it was discussed is the ratio of passive bonuses granted from these special weapons to the ordinary 1-4-piece bonuses. If we look at the old values#

Master Inferno/ Ice/ Lighting Staff: 1032 Max Magicka = ~1.067*Max Magicka bonus
Master Restoration Staff: 1032 Max Magicka = ~1.067*Max Magicka bonus
Master Bow: 1032 Max Stamina = ~1.067*Max Stamina bonus
Master Dagger: 94 Weapon Damage = ~0.729*Weapon Damage bonus
Master Greatsword: 189 Weapon Damage = ~1.465*Weapon Damage bonus
Master Sword: 774 Max Health = ~0.727*Max Health bonus

The Maelstrom's Inferno/ Ice/ Lighting Staff: 189 Spell Damage = ~1.465*Spell Damage bonus
The Maelstrom's Restoration Staff: 668 Spell Critical = Spell Critical bonus
The Maelstrom Dagger/ Axe: 94 Weapon Damage = ~0.729*Weapon Damage bonus
The Maelstrom Greatsword/ Battle Axe/ Maul: 189 Weapon Damage = ~1.465*Weapon Damage bonus
The Maelstrom's Sword/ Mace: 774 Max Health = ~0.727*Max Health bonus

#Old values: 1064 Max Health, 967 Max Magicka/ Stamina, 129 Spell Damage, 688 Spell Critical

Therefore, the extra Spell Critical and Max Magicka/ Stamina (1 ~ 1.067) granted from these weapons are significantly less than the Max Health and Spell/ Weapon Damage (1.455 ~ 1.465) from these weapons. Considering how strong The Maelstrom Bows (especially with the buff to the Infused trait) and Destruction Staves are, there is little reason for Master Destruction Staves, Master Bows, Master/ The Maelstrom Restoration Staves to have significant weaker passive enchantments than the rest.


Thank you everyone for reading and if there is anything I should add, anything I am wrong or any argument I made is incorrect/ debatable please let me know so that I can adjust this post accordingly.

@ZOS_GinaBruno could you please pass this to the team working on the item sets? Because I believe one of the main goal of this patch is the balance the bonuses granted from all kinds and Master/ The Maelstrom Weapons are definitely part of the most used sets and thus I think they should also be adjusted in this patch as well. Thank you for your help in advance.

Buff Master Weapons along with VMA weapons. Both have their own benefits some good in PVE or some in PVP or some are awfully weak!

These weapons need buff and further improvements especially 1h mace/sword VMA and VMA restro.

You explained Master in detail but just wrapped quickly VMA

Vercingetorix

Nah, they should remain where they are and ZoS should just create a new arena with new weapons for you to get. Oh, and all gear should be brought up to 180CP, too.

bebynnag

technically master & maelstrom weapons are not actually a part of a set, they are unique weapons (dual being two halves of a whole)

that said i agree with the idea that the values should of been adjusted accordingly; but imagine that the changes to the infused trait has something to do with them not being buffed!

Dymence

The max stat numbers on master staves have long since been underperforming. Let's up those numbers to 2k and then we're talking.

Joy_Division

This is an insightful post and I would say similar logic could apply to all 5 piece bonuses, especially the ones that offer bonus stats.

PS4_ZeColmeia

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Nah, they should remain where they are and ZoS should just create a new arena with new weapons for you to get. Oh, and all gear should be brought up to 180CP, too.

You had a point until 180 CP. There is literally 0 reason to do this after 1T. I'm sure they've done the math that the mass exodus for negating 3 years of work would not be worth it.

Now if the transmog system could allow jewels and armor/weapon to be upgraded without losing the improvement status then I think there is an opportunity for this.

Without it, I'm gone and I'm sure most will as well considering the RNG system and the revolting idea of grinding again.

ccfeeling

Vma is bis and lasts forever
I wont buy any new dlc , those drops are suck

InFernalEntity

Set bonuses did get increased but if I remember correctly these weapons have unique enchantments rather than being part of a set.

vMA Greatsword has an enchantment that gives 189 weapon damage increase NOT a set bonus. It is not really a 1 piece set (even though all these weapons behave that way).

The 2 ways to buff them would be to either:

A. Make it a set bonus. These weapons could perform at a higher standard if you could enchant them and still have the current enchantment changed to a set bonus.

B. Increase the values of the Maelstrom enchantments.

Personally I'd prefer option A but either or even both is good.

FakeFox

Joysheeped wrote: »

3) for Master Restoration Staves, while it is true that it is a strong tool in both PvE and PvP, note that in PvE Trial Healers usually run 5/ 5/ 1 (usually SPC + Worm/ IA/ Mending/ MA/ Twilight), so running a Master Restoration Staff means that particular healer cannot run 6 light/ 1 heavy, run any 1-piece Monster Set nor poisons; if we notice PvE Raid Healers also need to throw a large amount of Healing Orbs and Combat Prayers (and other support skills), the Stamina return from the enchantment is by no means overpowered and thus there is little reason for Master Restoration Staves to give less Magicka than the new 1-piece Max Magicka bonus, not to mention one of the new Undaunted Mask gives BOTH Max Magicka AND Max Stamina as a 1-piece bonus which is attractive to (Templar) Healers for CC Break/ Block Cast/ Power of the Light for Minor Breach and Fracture.

There is no reason for a healer to run 6/1 or poisons. If master staff or one piece of a monsterset is stronger depends on which setup buffs the group better, since your own stats are less important. While it is true that you proc the master enchant only around every four seconds in most normal fights, spamming healing springs when there is too much incoming damage is often the best option, therefore increasing the efficiency of the enchantment when its usually most needed. Your only other option would be to run crusher enchantment, which I don't see as very effective on a healer and which gets less effective the more pressure is on your group. As for one piece monstersets, there are nice ones, but they are not needed. Stamina shouldn't be a issue since in block intense fights you can simply run potions that give back stamina. Never the less I would like to see a buff.

Lord_Eomer

ccfeeling wrote: »

Vma is bis and lasts forever
I wont buy any new dlc , those drops are suck

VMA Inferno, Lighting, 1H Axe/Dagger and Bow are on BIS...

Everything else is junk!

Joysheeped

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Buff Master Weapons along with VMA weapons. Both have their own benefits some good in PVE or some in PVP or some are awfully weak!

These weapons need buff and further improvements especially 1h mace/sword VMA and VMA restro.

You explained Master in detail but just wrapped quickly VMA

I also believe many of the weapons should be adjusted too. However, since this post is not about discussing how to make all the Master/ Maelstrom Weapons useful but rather just pointing out the disparity between the passive bonuses (because it would take much more time and effort while changing the passive bonuses are relatively easy and does not require as much discussion so that this change may be able to get into this PTS cycle), I only discussed a little on the active effects of those weapons which I would like to see their passive bonus put back in line with the most frequently used weapons (Maelstrom Destruction Staves, Bows and Daggers/ Axes) and explained that the active effects of those discussed are not overpowered compared to the rest of the collection and thus an upward adjustment to those passive bonuses are not over buffing them.

FakeFox wrote: »

There is no reason for a healer to run 6/1 or poisons. If master staff or one piece of a monsterset is stronger depends on which setup buffs the group better, since your own stats are less important. While it is true that you proc the master enchant only around every four seconds in most normal fights, spamming healing springs when there is too much incoming damage is often the best option, therefore increasing the efficiency of the enchantment when its usually most needed. Your only other option would be to run crusher enchantment, which I don't see as very effective on a healer and which gets less effective the more pressure is on your group. As for one piece monstersets, there are nice ones, but they are not needed. Stamina shouldn't be a issue since in block intense fights you can simply run potions that give back stamina. Never the less I would like to see a buff.

I agree that in the current meta there is no reason to run 6/ 1 because of the amount of sustain nerf together with the amount of purges needs in vHoF but I still think using poisons (on your Destruction Staff bar or both if you are not running Master Restoration Staff) is a nice way to buff your team's DPS a little bit (so that people can put less points into Spell Erosion/ Piercing if that's what you meant by not needed) since it is still uncommon to see a Stamplar in raids. And in the current meta because sustain management is emphasised (and there are also more Stam DDs), I will always run a Master Restoration Staff over the new 1-piece Monster Set even if the Master Restoration Staff is not going to be changed; what I wanted to point out is just the active enchantment is not overpowered by any means and thus there is a good reason to actually buff the passive bonus. Also, I agree that the extra Stamina from the New Monster Set is not needed but, using the same word as in my OP, is attractive, especially to people who have yet to own a Master Restoration Staff in good traits. The reasons I highlighted that particular Monster Set is 1) I kind feel that the 1-piece (and the 2-piece) is (are) overpowered and 2) to point out with the introduction of that Monster Set, there is 1 more reason for Master Restoration Staves to get a buff on the passive bonus if the Master Staves' passive bonuses have been less than they should have been is not an enough reason.

Dymence wrote: »

The max stat numbers on master staves have long since been underperforming. Let's up those numbers to 2k and then we're talking.

I know right! But probably not 2k because if we notice

189 Weapon Damage = ~1.465*Weapon Damage bonus,

then the Magicka given by the Master Staves should be around 1096*1.465 = ~1606, not 2k (I wish though :P).

Joy_Division wrote: »

This is an insightful post and I would say similar logic could apply to all 5 piece bonuses, especially the ones that offer bonus stats.

Joy commented on Joy's post = Joy x Joy = Joy^2 XD But yeah I actually made a post on the Mother's Sorrow 5-piece before this one because I only checked the Master Weapons after I made that post >_< :
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359096/mothers-sorrow-5pc-bonus-underperforming-3-1-0#latest

InFernalEntity wrote: »

Set bonuses did get increased but if I remember correctly these weapons have unique enchantments rather than being part of a set.

vMA Greatsword has an enchantment that gives 189 weapon damage increase NOT a set bonus. It is not really a 1 piece set (even though all these weapons behave that way).

The 2 ways to buff them would be to either:

A. Make it a set bonus. These weapons could perform at a higher standard if you could enchant them and still have the current enchantment changed to a set bonus.

B. Increase the values of the Maelstrom enchantments.

Personally I'd prefer option A but either or even both is good.

Yeah their enchantments are unique that's why they did not change them but I believe they overlooked these weapons exactly because of that. They are not part any set (or you can say each weapon form a set itself) but I think their passive bonuses (from the enchantment) should be related to the ordinary set bonuses and thus with the increase to the Max Stat and Critical bonuses the weapons should be changed as well.

And those 2 ways are what I thought of too, doing B is much more complicated and thus the easier way would definitely be A and it is what I suggested and thus I made this post

Remorseless

nice post @Joysheeped really enjoyed the read

Strider_Roshin

Without buffing the imperial City jewelry sets nor the Master/Maelstrom weapons, I have removed them both from my loadout. That's okay with me though, it's nice to be able to dust off Hunding's Rage gear again.

ManDraKE

There is no point in running VMA/Master + Agility/Willpower next patch. Backbar infused with wpn/spell damage enchant and 5+5+1monster/5+5+2monster is superior.

f047ys3v3n

I agree Joy.

Lord_Eomer

Agreed, no need to run VMA/Master and Willpowe/Agility unless they are buff!

Osseley

I love you!

WeylandLabs

Its funny you say this @Joysheeped, ive been trying to rally the buff to my vma weapons with torugs myself. Because i knew it would come to this point and to all vma weapons.

Unfortunately Zos blocks all buffs to vma weapons even if you want to throw torugs on it. A bug thats been in the game since the drop of orsiniam and they still do nothing about it.

I wish you and everyone else the best in this post rally. I givin up on trying to report bugs or throw out ideas. Hopefully this post gains traction, views, ZOS's attention and spoke about in many areas of our community to enhance diverse gameplay.

NotNormanBates

vMA and Master's weapons passive bonuses already act as set bonus, as we still receive the bonus when poisons are applied. There is no reason that they shouldn't receive a buff, especially considering the fact that since there isn't a cool down on the enchant, you lose out on a lot of the benefit of running infused, on a vMA/Master's weapon. And because infused is looking to be best in slot, it puts these weapons at a huge disadvantage.

Croblasta

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

I understand that HoTR just dropped and you're busy with launch week, but do you have any plans to evaluate the enchantments, passive bonuses and trait application of Master and Maelstrom weapons in light of all the recent combat and gear changes recently made? The upcoming Orsinium anniversary would be a great time for any changes.

A green "yes, we're evaluating Maelstrom and Master Weapons" or "We're happy with Maelstrom and Master Weapons at this time" would be awesome.

I agree with all of the points brought up in this thread.