Group Finder troubles are representative of ZOS' attitude

Kurkikohtaus

edit: I changed the thread title from "GF" to avoid confusion between "Group Finder" and "Girlfriend"

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The group finder is in a dismal state. Despite small improvements (a substitute for a departed group member can now usually be found through the tool) it is still broken. To name a few ongoing problems:

• ready-check reports that someone has declined - but they have not, the tool simply failed to assemble the group
• although the tool reports that you are "at the front of the queue" after ready-check failure, you are clearly NOT at the front and must re-queue
• pre-made groups get removed from the dungeon upon entry
• Battlegrounds queues are reportedly a disaster, personally I have not tried them

These problems continue after months and months of severe issues which were introduced by Homestead and the advent of the failure that is the ready-check.

I cannot understand how fixing this is not a priority for ZOS. This is the type of thing that you iron out in Beta stress-tests to ensure that it is fully functional from day 1 and immediately iron out kinks and bugs the moment they appear through various patches.

So why is this not the case, and why has this been left "as is" for so long?

• Do ZOS networking specialists simply not know how to fix it?
• Are they understaffed, hiring contract workers who have no idea how it was put together in the first place?
• Are other things, like the re-skinning of assets for crown crates, higher up on the priority list?
• Do their accumulated metrics suggest that too small a percentage of logged-in players are using the tool in the first place to merit devoting resources to fixing it?
• Do they simply not care, because the state of the tool is seemingly not affecting revenue?

Whichever combination of these factors it is, the one thing that I find very disappointing is that ZOS has remained taciturn about the problem. Can they not reach out to the community, state what the problem is, and perhaps even ask those of us who might be network specialists to help solve it?

Turelus

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

I cannot understand how fixing this is not a priority for ZOS. This is the type of thing that you iron out in Beta stress-tests to ensure that it is fully functional from day 1 and immediately iron out kinks and bugs the moment they appear through various patches.

It is a priority in some regards, they've rolled out attempted fixes numerous times.

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Do ZOS networking specialists simply not know how to fix it?

I don't think it's a networking issue no? Seems more like it's on the code side of things.

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Are they understaffed, hiring contract workers who have no idea how it was put together in the first place?

No one knows, they are hiring on the company page though, so they're expanding either way.

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Are other things, like the re-skinning of assets for crown crates, higher up on the priority list?

Well, unless you want the at teams messing with code, that's probably a safer place for them.

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Do their accumulated metrics suggest that too small a percentage of logged-in players are using the tool in the first place to merit devoting resources to fixing it?

Again, they are working on fixes. However it's not so broken it's 100% unusable, it just has frustrating issues that come up.

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Do they simply not care, because the state of the tool is seemingly not affecting revenue?

Again they seem to care enough to acknowledge issues (PvE and PvP based) and keep pushing patches when they can, however if they haven't fixed the issue yet there isn't much they can put live or say.


Also in before being called a white knight.

Voxicity

Turelus wrote: »

Also in before being called a white knight.

That was pretty white knightish of you, but rightly so. I agree with everything you said.

Kurkikohtaus

Very disappointing post, @Turelus .

Members of the community defending a group finder tool that is uniquely broken in the greater context of all the available MMOs out there is not going to push ZOS to make this a priority and fix the issues. ZOS does not need people defending their ineptitude, they need people who will hold them to a higher standard than they are delivering.

Vipstaakki

Why does no one ever call out black knights who complain because they get a kick out of it?

Turelus

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

Very disappointing post, Turelus .

Members of the community defending a group finder tool that is uniquely broken in the greater context of all the available MMOs out there is not going to push ZOS to make this a priority and fix the issues. ZOS does not need people defending their ineptitude, they need people who will hold them to a higher standard than they are delivering.

The tool has issues, but the PvE one is working way better than it was.
The only times I ever have issues is queuing 2 DPS as it seems to not be good at matching that with anything.
The old issues of not correctly forming groups and kicking people back have seemed far less common for me, granted that's my persona experience but we're not at the point of 5 front page posts a day about how broken it is any more.
ZOS are going to keep working to get it back on track but as I stated, if they have nothing ready they can't exactly push anything live, throwing more developers (from the art team) at it won't do any good either.

The PvP one has a lot of issues but as was said in posts by Gina and maybe on ESO Live we have a patch for that coming tomorrow which hopefully will fix issues.
You can complain it's not working yet after lots of attempts but you can hardly say ZOS is not working to fix the issues when they've rolled out so many attempts.

Yes I am defending ZOS, sure I white knight from time to time but people have also reached the point where they see everything ZOS does negativity regardless of how well they've done and easily forget all the work and progress already made.

TL;DR PvE Group Finder still has issues, but it's not so broken it's unusable any more.

AzraelKrieg

Vipstaakki wrote: »

Why does no one ever call out black knights who complain because they get a kick out of it?

I do that quite often. But there is only so much of dealing some of these people one person can take before trying to do so becomes a chore.

ADarklore

We also need to keep in mind, not trying to be negative but realistic, that this is the same company that had to scrap their console version just a couple months before launch and had to take a year to completely redo it because they couldn't get it to work right. So let's just say that ZOS doesn't have a great reputation for quickly fixing complex problems. On top of that, whatever they do they have to make sure it doesn't break other aspects of the game- and how often have we had it where updates break quests and many other things. No amount of testing can tell them certain quests have been broken when you have 1000's of quests and numerous aspects to each quest... same goes with everything else they try to 'fix' in the game. Simply 'reporting' the problem doesn't mean the solution can be quickly resolved because a 'report' only tells them there is a problem, not where in the code the problem lies.

I give ZOS credit, for a game this immense with so many variables, they've been doing a good job of trying to resolve the problems within.

rootimus

Vipstaakki wrote: »

Why does no one ever call out black knights

[Insert Monty Python reference here]

rootimus

When I saw the title I wondered how girlfriend troubles had anything to do with ZOS.

Slack

How hard can it be to understand that people who design costumes, horses, hairstyles... Are NOT the people who write the codes.
That's what CODERS are for, and they work separately.

The worst is when people call companies incompetent or greedy , while not even understanding such easy things as this.
But I suppose it's cool to blame and name, without using or having any common sense.
At least the group finder can be fixed

RoyalPink06

rootimus wrote: »

When I saw the title I wondered how girlfriend troubles had anything to do with ZOS.

My exact thoughts too!

I used the group finder a couple of times over the past few days and it worked just fine, which was a nice surprise considering the clusterf*** it usually is.

Easily_Lost

Kurkikohtaus wrote: »

..... This is the type of thing that you iron out in Beta stress-tests to ensure that it is fully functional from day 1 and immediately iron out kinks and bugs the moment they appear through various patches......

Just wondering if you were testing this on the PTS.

Zolron

Slack wrote: »

How hard can it be to understand that people who design costumes, horses, hairstyles... Are NOT the people who write the codes.
That's what CODERS are for, and they work separately.

The worst is when people call companies incompetent or greedy , while not even understanding such easy things as this.
But I suppose it's cool to blame and name, without using or having any common sense.
At least the group finder can be fixed

Maybe I'm wrong here but the fact that they work 'separately' as you put it doesn't mean they are not inter related. Most company's have budgets, for example( over simplified) if my overall budget allows for 10 employees and I decide to allocate 3 for coding as you say and 7 for art design ( crown crates etc).
So in essence when people make this claim they are kind of refering to the fact that perphaps ZOS isnt allocating enough resources to 'fixing' their code and are instead funnelling them into designing there short-term money makers.

So if this is the case people have every right to call ZOS greedy or incompetent !
...just a though , could be wrong

Alcast

ZOS said it themselves:

1. They only care about people that buy DLCs and play for 2-3 weeks aka Story, Exploring & Achievements.
2. Endgame aka PvP & Raids community is prolly 1-5% of the player base > thus they dont give a FLYING *** about them.

That is why they have no intent to hire more people to fix things faster. Because they would LOOSE more money. Questers and Rolepalyes do NOT notice/care about most of those bugs so ZOS doesnt give a single ***.

Morrowind was a HUGE milestone, and they *** it up, aka Queue & too strict sustain changes. Yes, there are more people playing the game then ever. Questers etc rise, endgame ppl quit the game more then ever.

Do I love the game? Yes, I do, it still has one of the best combat systems and pvp and raids are fun, if they work. I am in the lookout for other games because I feel like getting kicked into the nuts every new patch.

Also, when you look at this list it makes me almost throw up. It keeps growing and NOTHING is fixed yet https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/213734/the-bug-notes-compendium-of-current-bugs-exploits

abigfishy

I am sorry about your girlfriend but at least she isn't as frigid as the group finder, lucky if it puts out once a month.

Keep_Door

I read that as GirlFreind troubles and was going to say just take a break and take your girl out. But after not reading your post im just going to say the same thing.

If the group finder is causing you any type of stress or discomfort maybe its time to take a break?

madchuska83

I can get in a group with my healer in under a minute, every time. Random or specific, doesn't matter. I farmed White Gold Tower with randoms for 2 days to get SPC without any trouble. On Xbox by the way.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

They released a chapter with a major part of it affected by the messed up group finder. A group finder that has been messed up for an extended period of time. So if they care, they have an odd way of showing it.

Stovahkiin

Have you been experiencing troubles while queuing recently? Slow or flat out broken queues can give anyone a headache these days.

Well not anymore! Introducing, the Just Don't Queue! This magic device saves you time and trouble of all sorts and costs a mere $19.99! Come on down to Stovah's totally not creepy garage and buy yours today!

Kurkikohtaus

Alcast wrote: »

That is why they have no intent to hire more people to fix things faster. Because they would LOOSE more money.

This is what I meant in my original post when I mentioned crown crates. I know that separate people do separate things, but the point is, how big is the team at ZOS who are currently working on fixing bugs that are related to coding, like the group finder? What resources has ZOS allocated to this? Are these people contracted or are they employees? What are the expectations and timelines that they have to meet?

In short, is it a priority at ZOS to make the game better, or are they more focused on keeping revenue streams flowing?

max_only

If you're having pug problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 bugs but a queue ain't one!






No really. Group finder has always worked for me until recently. I don't know what it is. I only queue for healer or tank and never for random. If it's taking "too long" (greater than 5 min) or it keeps saying someone declined, I relog. Seems to work so far. Maybe it's putting me in a different instance when I relog like that. Don't know. I'm coming up on a year and group finder has only fantastically failed me 3 times. Also, I rarely use premades (maybe if someone from the first pug needs a pledge I need then we two will re-queue). I don't know what to tell you. Dps characters have a hard time.
Also, for Zos, maybe the error margin is acceptable because clearly there ARE people who use it with success.

Huyen

There will be a huge fix in the upcomming patch. Keep up with the news my friend.

leepalmer95

Zos's stance on a lot of things is just pure disappointing nowdays.

Morrowind was mean't to be the patch that saves end game pve and pvp. Zos messed it up so bad.

Morrowind was a half finished DLC that had a $40 price tag attached onto it. BG's queues and the BG's themselves are not finished, this was mean't to bring all the high end pvpers who quit back so they can have a fun pvp experience without going into the zerging lag fest cyrodiil has become.

What did they get in return? Queues into BG's that are still broke over a month after release, you'd think it would be priority and they'd fix their new dlc in a week, they'd drop everything else to fix it because its a new product that is broke. Gamemodes that are horribly unbalanced as well as broken sets ruining it. Also 2 of the gamemodes have nothing to do with pvp, you can win them all while going 0-10 because killing players is actually detrimental to winning.

Warden seems like a half assed balanced class. Sure the skills look cool but thats it, it doesn't really specialise in anything and seems more like they threw as many 'unqiue' buffs and skill into 1 character. It has many completely useless skills as well as some OP broken ones.

Its passives and morph effects seem to greatly favour magicka more than stamina. Some stam morphs has no effects, a lot of warden passives don't benefit stamina warden. I understand on the base classes as this game was designed to be only magicka at the beginning but this class was introduced during the current eso. Why was stamina half forgotten?

The actual pve zone is slightly bigger than Orsinium but seems to have the same amount of content or even less. It's just a bigger zone but emptier zone. At least thats my experience anyway.

So for $40 you get.

Orsinium sized Zone

A class that was in the game at Alpha and is being reintroduced so its not even a 'new' class. It half finished with stamina ignored, some passives are useless and some skills are useless and in doesn't excel in anything in pve, dps/ tanking or healing.

A Pvp 4v4v4 arena what you need to pray you get into. When you do get in you need to pray its a 4v4v4 and not a half finished match of 4v2v2 or 2v2v2
You have to hope if your in a not full match that your opponent doesn't rage quit because then you get kicked out and get nothing for you time despite the fact you was clearly winning.
Hope you don't get put vs a pre made because the match is over before it begins.
Hope you don't get stuck with noobs trying out bgs for quests who are useless and just feed the enemy team.
Hope you get deathmatch so you can pvp and not play flag simulator in domination or capture the flag. In both of those game modes if you actually pvp with an enemy team you lose the game because you waste time.
Hope you don't randomly d/c because they you get a 20 minute penalty.

Rohamad_Ali

Zos is famous for saying we need to communicate more and then ignoring their own forums . You post this on Reddit and then you may see a reaction . The Reddit sub forums are monitored by extremely pro ZoS accounts that will dismiss and down vote anything controversial immediately . Facebook is like the forums with little moderation . It's difficult to give any constructive criticism without triggering someone on some side of the community and that's a shame . Nothing improves until the community is ready to blow up all together . There is so much room for better communication is not even funny anymore .

Elvenpath

• Do ZOS networking specialists simply not know how to fix it? (YES, they have no idea, it should be fix in 7 - 8 months and its prio bug)
• Are they understaffed, hiring contract workers who have no idea how it was put together in the first place? (YES, small team they expect to few developers do all ***.)
• Are other things, like the re-skinning of assets for crown crates, higher up on the priority list? (YES, because they like money)
• Do their accumulated metrics suggest that too small a percentage of logged-in players are using the tool in the first place to merit devoting resources to fixing it? (YES, only using for BG's because no other option, you can't go via door)
• Do they simply not care, because the state of the tool is seemingly not affecting revenue? (YES, they dont care)

TheRealPotoroo

rootimus wrote: »

When I saw the title I wondered how girlfriend troubles had anything to do with ZOS.

Ah, you beat me to it. My initial reaction was gee, I know some people love to beat on ZoS for every little thing but blaming them for their girl friend troubles? Really?

Kurkikohtaus

For the ZOS apologists, let me re-iterate one detail that is important in understanding my point.

My issue is not that there is "a bug" or "a broken feature" that has not been fixed yet. My issue is with the nature of the specific feature, the group finder. This is in my opinion a core feature in MMOs for the last decade and one that should work from Day 1 and always be on top of the priority list if problems arise.

The fact that it was broken before the ready check was added, the fact that the ready check broke it even further and the fact that response and improvements are taking over half a year and are still not finished is indicative that ZOS does not really care about the quality of the game as an MMO, as long as the revenue stream is still flowing.

Olupajmibanan

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

rootimus wrote: »

When I saw the title I wondered how girlfriend troubles had anything to do with ZOS.

Ah, you beat me to it. My initial reaction was gee, I know some people love to beat on ZoS for every little thing but blaming them for their girl friend troubles? Really?

Actually, Zos can be blammed for some Girlfriend troubles.

Doing random normal/veteran dungeon will guaranteely give you a reward only if you are logging as solo or 4-premade. I just can't count how many times I and my GF logged together and one of us didn't get the reward. Now we log this separately.

starkerealm

Vipstaakki wrote: »

Why does no one ever call out black knights who complain because they get a kick out of it?

Because, everyone knows Black Knights are mostly armless.

doggie

I've been wondering about the same things as the OP for a long time. A lot of ZOS actions have not made sense in the past. I mean for a company who specialize in Online games, it's pretty bad idea to be this lazy with fixing broken content.

How will the next ZOS mmo fare in sales? Nothing made sense to me.

Now that we know a little more about their intentions I think the truth is that they have given up on large scale mmo's and will make smaller games in the future. Like Android/iOS games.

They don't need an advanced group finder on those platforms and they simply don't care to invest in the group finder. Why spend time recruiting someone to come to Hunt Valley, when future games will not need that kind of systems?