Evasion (Shuffle, Elude)

josiahva

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Just finished watching a couple of BG videos since I haven't got Morrowind.
I noticed that all the toons looked the same. Four shadowy figures on one side, two or three on the other side.... all in all everyone was running Evasion.


Evasion:
Gain Major Evasion for 20s NEGATING 20% of incoming dmg and helping you avoid being CCed
Cost 3900 stamina

Shuffle: removes snares
Elude: increase duration. 5% duration increase per medium armor piece.

Okay let's talk.

1) The icon of the skills has a [snip] ninja. The description paints a stealth fighters ability. Shouldn't it be a NB only skill? I don't play NB, I don't like them very much atm because of proctard and the VD/Bomb/ST gangs However I know that before this proc mania, at least stamina NBs that were good in Cyro were good players.
I think that once this mess with overperforming proc sets is shorted out, stamNBs would get a TRULLY FAIR boost if ZOS were to limit Major Evasion to NBs and remove Evasion and it's morphs from the game, by replacing the medium armor skills with something useful for medium armor users, that complements their mobility.
Evasion is the most BiS skill across all the players in PvP ESO.

2) It's cost is lower than the heavy armor skill.
it's duration is far greater than the heavy armor skill
It's damage mitigation is far greater than the other armor skills.
It has a change to avoid CCs completely during that time. The HA skill has a 5s timeframe which you can avoid CC.

It is much more powerful than the other 2 armor skills. Most of the people run Evasion over the other two skills.

3) In a game with very realistic combat, including features like blocking, roll dodging and other mobility actions, 20% evasion of incoming damage is very very very wrong.
Are you a fighter with great mobility and stamina? use those mechanics to avoid damage.
Can you cast Damage Shields? Do so.
Are you a heavy armor fighter that can take damage and ACTIVELY block it? Do so.
Passive damage avoidance especially at 20+% and for such a great duration is crazy broken.

Besides, don't you hate that it makes your toon colourless like that? NBs look nice when they ACTIVELY go into hide. Pretty neat, but Evasion is just ugly.
And even if it doesn't bother you since it gets you the results, doesn't it bother you that most toons in PvP look the same dull colourless figures because of Evasion?

I think that Evasion should be removed from the game.
If not, it should be limited to NBs with a cost of 4500 Stamina and duration of about 10-15s. magNBs shouldn't have such an easy access to it.
If not, Major evasion should be removed. Evasion should grant minor evasion and last for 15s. (I don't see major Heroism in the game which is a good buff. Major evasion is broken as)

This has PvE implications too, so stop calling for nerfs and restrictions that will impact the game far outside PvP

A 15% dodge chance is NOT 15% damage mitigation....roll a 100 sided die 10 times, see how many times it comes up 15 or less....if you think its 1.5 times per 10 rolls guaranteed you dont know anything about statistics, the reality is you are far more likely to roll that dice 20 times before ever getting a number less than 15

[Edited for quote]

Kodrac

No more nerfs! Or else we'll end up with just two generic classes, one stamina and one magicka. It's pretty close to that already.

Jamini

1. Nightblades do not need shuffle/evasion, as they have Mirage/Double take (Cheaper and uses magicka)
2. Shuffle is very expensive for magicka characters (MagPlar, MagDK, MagWard, MagSorc) and shields and heals are a far better defense for the.
3. The remaining specs that use evasion are either stamina DDs, or Tanks.
4. The Heavy Armor active ability is fairly useless, leaving evasion ideal for non-NB stamina users, and non-NB tanks.

The only thing that needs to be changed would be a notable buff for Immovable Brute and Unstoppable

Right now Immovable Brute has the following:

* Intensify your physical presence to gain Major Resolve and Major Ward, increasing Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 5280 for 15 seconds. (This buff is exceedingly EASY to get through other sources)
* Also grants you immunity to knockback and disabling effects for 5 seconds. (Shuffle is roughly equal to this)
* While slotted, the Stamina cost of breaking free from a disabling effect is reduced by 4% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. (Very strong buff)

Cost - 4715- Stamina (Very pricey, as shuffle is. Stamina cost, which dips into your stamina DPS and breakfree/bash/rolldoge pool)
Duration - 15s (8s shorter than Shuffle, 5s shorter than spiked armor morphs, 6s shorter than frost cloak morphs, 5s longer than a Shadow Barrier passive proc (but Shadow barrier is free with any shadow skill), Equal to Rune Focus morphs (but rune focus has TONS of more utility at cost of mobility), Equal to Lightning form morhs (But again, lightning form has more utility)

Unstoppable has 35% more duration at 7 heavy (25% at 5 heavy) leading to 18-21 seconds duration, but no break free reduction

----

Ultimately, the main issue with Unstoppable/Immovable Brute is that it is a costly alternative to far more useful class skills, does very little on it's own outside of those buffs, and has a comparatively short duration.

Meanwhile Shuffle stacks with other forms of defense, has synergy armor sets (Tava's favor), and only conflicts with the abilities of a single class.

QuebraRegra

kylewwefan wrote: »

Nightblade can use magic skill mirage or double take for 20 second major evasion. Same thing as shuffle, but uses magic instead of costly stamina.

Like many of the very intelligent responses above, these skills are the only dmg mitigation that a STAMBLADE can use to survive, and they are RNG and not terribly reliable at that.

I had been looking for some form of dmg mitigation on my STAMBLADE for a while, and just recently decided to try MIRAGE. I can telly you firsthand that the dodge chance is NOT greater than 15% (if even that). The minor resolve and minor ward are pretty minor honestly, but better than nothing. I run MIRAGE on my stamblade because I'm not really using my limited MAG pool for anything else anyway.

leepalmer95

While we are at it.

Lets nerf really because every stam build who has a clue uses it in pvp
Lets nerf vigor because everyone uses it
Lets nerf breath of life as every magplar uses it
Lets nerf hardened ward because every magicka sorc uses it.

Nerf incap because nb's


etc...

You get the point.

There will always be 'must skills' in pvp. Evasion isn't used in pvp by DD's.

Strider_Roshin

Evasion needs to be removed from the game, and replaced with snare/root immunity.

Dodge rolling needs to be improved dramatically.
-Make everything except ground AoEs dodgeable
-Reduce the invincibility frames
-remove the cost increase punishment
-Increase the base cost by a small amount

Strider_Roshin

I like intentional defensive actions. RNG dodging removes some skill from the game, and replaces it with luck.

There's a reason why I prefer Chess over Risk.

idk

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Evasion needs to be removed from the game, and replaced with snare/root immunity.

Dodge rolling needs to be improved dramatically.
-Make everything except ground AoEs dodgeable
-Reduce the invincibility frames
-remove the cost increase punishment
-Increase the base cost by a small amount

Dodge cost reduction would need to be removed from the athletic passive and probably reduce the cap on the CP for dodge roll cost reduction, maybe even eliminate it for Zos to even consider it. The added the short term penalty due to perpetual dodge builds in cyrodiil . Realistically speaking, Zos would not bring back perpetual dodge rolling. Magicka has nothing equivalent, especially with the nerf to shields last year and how small they are in Cyrodiil.

Nelson_Rebel

Shuffle doesn't need to be nerfed

What needs to happens are these three things:

1. Make it so that the armor line skills can ONLY be used if you're wearing 5 pieces of that armor type (this prevents broken ass heavy armor users from also having high dodge chance uptime)

2. Remove the capability of shuffle to passively remove snares (this is because it becomes an imbalance of ability in combat)

3. Nerf shield stacking by making it so that only ONE shield can be applied to magic shields at a time. This makes it so light armor users aren't tankier than heavy armor tanks. And allows them to finally be damaged because shields ignore critical damage.

NOTE: #3 is a bit controversial since sorcs cry about their crutch here with overpowered 30k shields, so at least make shields critiable to bring it in line with other forms of armor types

DisgracefulMind

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Shuffle doesn't need to be nerfed

What needs to happens are these three things:

1. Make it so that the armor line skills can ONLY be used if you're wearing 5 pieces of that armor type (this prevents broken ass heavy armor users from also having high dodge chance uptime)

2. Remove the capability of shuffle to passively remove snares (this is because it becomes an imbalance of ability in combat)

3. Nerf shield stacking by making it so that only ONE shield can be applied to magic shields at a time. This makes it so light armor users aren't tankier than heavy armor tanks. And allows them to finally be damaged because shields ignore critical damage.

NOTE: #3 is a bit controversial since sorcs cry about their crutch here with overpowered 30k shields, so at least make shields critiable to bring it in line with other forms of armor types

Issue with your shield stack nerf is that most magicka specs use healing ward /:

Caligamy_ESO

Another example of PVP whining with zero insight into how it would effect PVE. Nerfing shuffle (even further than it just was) or making it so only 5 medium users can cast it would kill a lot of really fun PVE tank builds. There would also be little to no reason to ever craft the Tava's set again.. this is an idea without intelligent thought behind it.

DisgracefulMind

As for the OP, so you want Evasion removed for RP reasons basically?

I understand the frustration at the dodge chance, and yes, it's a CHANCE, it doesn't negate incoming damage 20% of the time, it just has a 15% chance to negate damage per spell/ability thrown at you. That being said, roll dodge and shuffle are the stamina defense mechanisms, and removing those tools from the stam toolkit would be highly unfair in PvP. I think after its nerf to 15% if became far more in line to what it should have been from the start, and I don't see and issue with it now.

Also, again, you mostly want Evasion to be limited to Nightblades for RP reasons. Like, I can't even with you.

Also, Major Heroism is accessible in the game through sets AND the Warden shield. So ya. There's that.

br0steen

Its threads like this that cause dumb changes to the game.

If you try and make the argument that shuffle negates 15%(not 20 T.T ) of all damage than you would have to acknowledge that shields negate 100% of all incoming damage. The caveat to these would be undodgeable moves and oblivin damage respectively. From that point of view what is more broken?

Both are just slight means of damage mitigation for different types of characters, neither of which should be touched. But if you scream too loud change will happen and you probably won't actually like the result.

Extinct_Solo_Player

@Ultimate_Overlord. A [snip] ninja dude....

[Edited to remove profanity]

Wing

in case you were curious as well, a rather large benefit of shuffle is the fact that it cleanses snares on you. this is huge (and the only snare removal practical for stam classes, and that's another reason why lots of people run it regardless of magicka or stamina.

also just because everyone slots a skill does not mean its over performing, breath of life, eye of flame, bolt escape, cloak, etc, etc, etc, it means its good.

also if you ever want to look at game design ignore the names, pretend its called class A or skill B, the names don't mean anything and are generally thought up after the fact to flavor the skill.

also it synergizes with the tavas set (pretty much a tank set) to help with ult gen, and thus is run on most DK's as that = sustain.

WhiteMage

Shuffle is OP for two reasons: it provides a passive defense that has no passive counter and it grants active immunity where no passively-triggered immunity, as a result of being afflicted by the effect, is available. From an objective standpoint, those make the ability "too strong." It should be noted though that neither have much of a bearing on wether or not it overperforms in practice. Since the nerf, I don't believe I have seen someone dodge more things than I thought was reasonable (I have had all my cc dodged though, but nothing else. That's pretty aggravating, especially when one of those is your ult.) I wouldn't say it is overperforming at the present. I would at the same time say that it is overpowered, though, even if it appears a bit paradoxical.

Morgul667

Shuffle is fine as it is, let it be.

apostate9

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Just finished watching a couple of BG videos since I haven't got Morrowind.
I noticed that all the toons looked the same. Four shadowy figures on one side, two or three on the other side.... all in all everyone was running Evasion.


Evasion:
Gain Major Evasion for 20s NEGATING 20% of incoming dmg and helping you avoid being CCed
Cost 3900 stamina

Shuffle: removes snares
Elude: increase duration. 5% duration increase per medium armor piece.

Okay let's talk.

1) The icon of the skills has a [snip] ninja. The description paints a stealth fighters ability. Shouldn't it be a NB only skill? I don't play NB, I don't like them very much atm because of proctard and the VD/Bomb/ST gangs However I know that before this proc mania, at least stamina NBs that were good in Cyro were good players.
I think that once this mess with overperforming proc sets is shorted out, stamNBs would get a TRULLY FAIR boost if ZOS were to limit Major Evasion to NBs and remove Evasion and it's morphs from the game, by replacing the medium armor skills with something useful for medium armor users, that complements their mobility.
Evasion is the most BiS skill across all the players in PvP ESO.

2) It's cost is lower than the heavy armor skill.
it's duration is far greater than the heavy armor skill
It's damage mitigation is far greater than the other armor skills.
It has a change to avoid CCs completely during that time. The HA skill has a 5s timeframe which you can avoid CC.

It is much more powerful than the other 2 armor skills. Most of the people run Evasion over the other two skills.

3) In a game with very realistic combat, including features like blocking, roll dodging and other mobility actions, 20% evasion of incoming damage is very very very wrong.
Are you a fighter with great mobility and stamina? use those mechanics to avoid damage.
Can you cast Damage Shields? Do so.
Are you a heavy armor fighter that can take damage and ACTIVELY block it? Do so.
Passive damage avoidance especially at 20+% and for such a great duration is crazy broken.

Besides, don't you hate that it makes your toon colourless like that? NBs look nice when they ACTIVELY go into hide. Pretty neat, but Evasion is just ugly.
And even if it doesn't bother you since it gets you the results, doesn't it bother you that most toons in PvP look the same dull colourless figures because of Evasion?

I think that Evasion should be removed from the game.
If not, it should be limited to NBs with a cost of 4500 Stamina and duration of about 10-15s. magNBs shouldn't have such an easy access to it.
If not, Major evasion should be removed. Evasion should grant minor evasion and last for 15s. (I don't see major Heroism in the game which is a good buff. Major evasion is broken as)

No.


[Edited for quote]

GeorgeBlack

We'll.
It's something. The new change that is.
Another one under my belt...

Samadhi

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

J...

1) The icon of the skills has a [snip] ninja. The description paints a stealth fighters ability. Shouldn't it be a NB only skill?...

NB only?
Nah.
The Mirage morph of Blur should give minor evasion on top of major evasion.

My StamWarden can dodge better than my Nightblade
what is up with that?

Warden OP


[Edited for quote]

Lexxypwns

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

It was nerfed to 15%

Evasion is with dodge roll, the only thing stamina toons have to reduce incoming damage. Doesnt make sense to me, to remove it.

It is being used by most people that PvP. Don't you think that this is wrong? Don't you think that it must be looked at?
Not all stamina users are stealth fighters. It's crazy BiS

Magika builds only use it when they have unchained and can pay 1k stam for it, maybe unchained is the real issue

GeorgeBlack

This is a necro btw.
Spare me the urge to answer...