Bots Apocalypse - Please stop them

Elsonso

Demolitionary wrote: »

Was in Stonefalls PC/EU, at the battleground near the dolmen.

I thought they were just a group of players waiting for the dolmen so I followed them, I then realized they carried on when the dolmen was up.

Mostly Sorcs with pets running in circles killing everything as it spawned..

Will look when home from work to see if they are still there and will report them.

I have a couple of reports out there. Near as I can tell, reporting them is pretty much the same as not reporting them.

Oddly enough, the current connection problems with NA are a whole lot more effective at dealing with bots than ZOS is. If they can't log in, they can't bot.

Tactical32

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Balsagna wrote: »

Console master race?

Sadly, no. Bots are a huge problem even on PS4.

I wouldn't have believed you until a week or two ago.

Just hit the Rawl'kha bank at like 6am. At least a couple days a week they will be in there unloading. You can't see a damn thing.

Stopnaggin

I've seen several spots on xbox 1 na, must be multi boxing, about 20 in a group and they all perform the same tasks at the same exact time.

qsnoopyjr

This title of thread, brings memories to me of GW2 Toypocalypse event.

I think however, they should allow boxing, the big time MMORPGs do it, look at WoW.
Diablo2? That game encourages you to use hack packs, remember those tower key grinds?? Those people doing them, ya know they on the hack packs. ALl of them, bots or casual alike.

Blizzard, they are #1 for a reason
They know great games, come with cheat codes.
Mario Kart 64 secret tunnels
Grand Theft Auto cheat codes
Civilization 2 cheat code mode
Star Craft cheat codes
Diablo 2 hack packs

Do you see any of these new games where people claim them TBE???
It's all the games with cheats that are TBE!

Wreuntzylla

Dracofyre wrote: »

i may have solution, make those mobs WB and dolmen that we can only kill one time a day, if the bots tried to kill them over and over, they get nothing (no drops), not even any xp or points.
it was only way for "kill-flagged" code would stop bot farming on specific mob bosses.

it would give players chances to kill and to score and qualified for rewards, and then move to next new targets. however, we can still help others who just missed, no penality, but it should feel great to help those in needs.

You should work for ZoS! That was their solution on PC back in the day. Only, they had to basically kill experience and drops from dungeon mobs as well and it made for a sucky game...

Stormahawk

@qsnoopyjr there is a huge difference between using cheat codes in single player and using bots/hacks in an MMO. Cheats are not something that make a game good. I sometimes wish the forums here had a "disagree" button like Blizzard does.

Bots making it harder for farmers to farm, and also make it far less rewarding by crashing the market. And with farming devalued like that, casual players and players looking to relax now have less incentive to farm, less ways to enjoy the game, and fewer ways to make gold.

They can fund guild traders for guilds that would never otherwise get a trader, pushing out legitimate trading guilds that aren't propped up by bots. This also drives up trader bid cost, and puts more pressure on the legitimate guilds, forcing the ones that remain to spend more time on fundraising than they otherwise would (which can also come in form of increased sales minimums). As for the members of guilds that got pushed out by bots, well, they can no longer sell and make gold and the bots now have a good stall to sell their botted mats.

AP trading is similar (may even be done with bots in some cases). A player working hard to get Emperor may never get it because of the cheaters trading AP, destroying a goal to work towards.

If your efforts are overshadowed by bots and cheaters, eventually the question will come up: why bother playing?

tl;dr bots ruin the game for legitimate players

Stormshaper

Reverb

I want to go on record as saying that Robot Apocalypse is the worst movie I have ever seen. By a lot.

https://g.co/kgs/pBrE6S

SilentRaven1972

Too bad they can't randomize all the spawns. Not just enemies, but also crafting harvest items. It would be hard for a bot, programmed to move in a set pattern and hit the mobs at the right times, to do that when things respawn in totally random ways. A bit annoying for regular players, but it could be worth it.

LadyNalcarya

Stormahawk wrote: »

@qsnoopyjr there is a huge difference between using cheat codes in single player and using bots/hacks in an MMO. Cheats are not something that make a game good. I sometimes wish the forums here had a "disagree" button like Blizzard does.

Bots making it harder for farmers to farm, and also make it far less rewarding by crashing the market. And with farming devalued like that, casual players and players looking to relax now have less incentive to farm, less ways to enjoy the game, and fewer ways to make gold.

They can fund guild traders for guilds that would never otherwise get a trader, pushing out legitimate trading guilds that aren't propped up by bots. This also drives up trader bid cost, and puts more pressure on the legitimate guilds, forcing the ones that remain to spend more time on fundraising than they otherwise would (which can also come in form of increased sales minimums). As for the members of guilds that got pushed out by bots, well, they can no longer sell and make gold and the bots now have a good stall to sell their botted mats.

AP trading is similar (may even be done with bots in some cases). A player working hard to get Emperor may never get it because of the cheaters trading AP, destroying a goal to work towards.

If your efforts are overshadowed by bots and cheaters, eventually the question will come up: why bother playing?

tl;dr bots ruin the game for legitimate players

Well said!
Bots arent beneficial for anyone except botters and their customers. Yes, its almost impossible to get rid of them, as long as people are willing to spend money to earn unfair advantages, but its the same with real life crime. Its still there, no matter what, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt fight it.
There are games that are popular despite cheating (not because of it!). People who create and sell hacks and cheats are just parasites who make money on lazy players. And they should be treated like any other parasites.

Tornaad

While I don't like bots and find them rather annoying in my mind it comes down to one question.

Would I rather they spend their time removing bots or patching, updating, and expanding the game?

On a PC all I need to do is put a paper weight on my mouse button and I have created a bot. On a console all I need to do is get a strategically placed rubber band and I have created a bot. Trying to stop botting entirely is almost impossible. Period. End of story.
So if they were to truly try to stop it on the scale being demanded here they would have to pull people from places like the expanding of the game to put a stop to it and that is something I really cannot support.
So unless I can think of a brilliant and simple way to do something that no one else has been able to do I will just live with it.

LadyNalcarya

Zuboko wrote: »

Would I rather they spend their time removing bots or patching, updating, and expanding the game?

But there things arent mutually exclusive. Better code and quick updates means less loopholes for cheaters and botters.

Trying to stop botting entirely is almost impossible. Period. End of story.

Its the same with any illegal (or borderline illegal) activity. Which absolutely doesnt mean they shouldnt even try.
A game where cheaters and botters rule is not a friendly environment for an average player, who isnt going to pay to win or doesnt want to be cannon fodder for all-mighty flying cheaters.

Nordic_Pirate

DON'T ban the bots!!! Instead, flag them for PvP and allow their loot to be stolen. Also, one death equals permanent death. Let the players take their revenge. I'll even take their loot and distribute it to the people.

Livvy

Some people must just do nothing but this. I went to the same coastline near Haven, like 4 days in a row. And every time I went there, they were there...doing the same thing...over and over and over again, with a huge herd of sorc pets. Didn't matter what time of day. Always there. Pretty sad...

Tornaad

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

Would I rather they spend their time removing bots or patching, updating, and expanding the game?

But there things arent mutually exclusive. Better code and quick updates means less loopholes for cheaters and botters.

Trying to stop botting entirely is almost impossible. Period. End of story.

Its the same with any illegal (or borderline illegal) activity. Which absolutely doesnt mean they shouldnt even try.
A game where cheaters and botters rule is not a friendly environment for an average player, who isnt going to pay to win or doesnt want to be cannon fodder for all-mighty flying cheaters.

I do not disagree with what you say. In fact I agree with you. I am just saying that to put as much effort as what many in this thread are saying then it could have some unforeseen side effects.

phairdon

Running a route between Stillrise wayshrine & Reticulated Spine dolmen. PC/NA.

KrishakPanettier

Seen several separate clusters of these bots on PS4 console all closely following each other and performing each task together. Started seeing them aggressively about a month ago from now. They are all similarly named with random letters and numbers.

qsnoopyjr

Oh trust me, multiplayer games people cheat too.
When everyone is on it, thats what makes it a great game, people like games they can cheat on.
Hence the top games like I mentioned before:
Blizzard, they are #1 for a reason
They know great games, come with cheat codes.
Mario Kart 64 secret tunnels
Grand Theft Auto cheat codes
Civilization 2 cheat code mode
Star Craft cheat codes
Diablo 2 hack packs

Yes on some Multiplayer games over 50% people cheating,
Diablo 2
The hack pack that lets you see the entire map, so you can quickly go get them tower keys rinse and repeat.

Diablo 2 did however, one time ban over 200,000 players because they decided to check to see who was cheating and over 50% of the playerbase was cheating.

Blizzard is known for having a lot of people cheating on their games, they also known for banning MASSIVE amounts of players in one sitting, as in hundred of thousand ACTIVE accounts. However they are very lenient, and the thing with them is, they allow you to cheat, but they put in the back of your mind...

AT any moment, YOU CAN BE BANNED.

ESO doe, theres no secret tunnels, theres no secret stuff, theres no tricks, believe me when I say this, ESO isnt going down as TBE in its current state. World of Warcraft has already claimed TBE, and you've got to be innovative to beat WoW...
This game with its static mobs, simplistic design, isnt anywhere near innovative.

PepterKleptic

The really sad part is that every time there is mass ban wave, the botters pool their ill gotten gains from the gold sellers they sell to and rent DDoS services to "pay back ZoS" for ruining their livelihood. Then we have to deal the fallout from that with massive lag spikes and not being able to log in. There are many countries where running MMOs bots is as normal as a job at a grocery store. Getting rid of them is nearly impossible without running evil spyware on client PCs to check for known programs, and even then it's cat and mouse with the folks supplying the cheat/trainer/bot automation software. There is money to be made so the unscrupulous will always be there to try and make it.

I just wish they would spring for some GMs to police areas of known activity regularly and ban them so often it becomes too expensive to keep buying the game to run more of them. Eventually the botters would be forced to move on, run out of money for DDoS attacks and the gold sellers would run out of product and also have to move on. Won't happen though as the game is on a shoestring budget already and GMs (trustworthy ones) cost money.

qsnoopyjr

PepterKleptic wrote: »

I just wish they would spring for some GMs to police areas of known activity regularly and ban them so often it becomes too expensive to keep buying the game to run more of them.

The developers get paid on salary basis,
meaning more tasks for them, does not equate to costing more.

GM?
Havent seen a Game Master since EQ days.
They have programs nowdays, they just dont go boasting it, just like how many people they have banned.
It's typical IT work.

You do work, very good work... No one thanks you
Once something bad happens... Mass amount of people demanding and threatening, they consider themselves the super customer and make huge demands.

Meld777

Lord wrote: »

Botting of any shape or form is not allowed in ESO.
Quote from ToS:
[snip]

There are active bots.
ZOS just didn't ban them yet.
If anyone who read this thread is planning to join the bots, I strongly suggest that you STOP thinking about it and don't do it.
Botting is not allowed and may lead to your account being banned/actioned.

I hope that a solution for the botting issue will be found soon.

This is a very optimistic view. You know, there is a law in Russia saying that if an officer of the law takes a bribe, he goes to prison. Yet, especially outside of capital cities, it is common practice for policemen to not pick up their salary for up to a year because it's way below survival level. Police make their living off bribes and it is accepted by society. Otherwise there would be no police at all because there is not enough money (well, there is, but it's on few people's personal bank accounts).

Yes, ZOS have a clause in their ToS meant to allow bot banning. But there are also national laws ZOS has to comply to, which are mainly anti-discrimination laws, in other words, "laws against screwing specific (paying) customers out of a group of many". And when those kinda laws are touched, the strictest level of evidence gathering has to be considered. To make it short, unless ZOS has a video of you in your house launching the bot and botting in ESO, whatever data they have, will not be enough to prove it wasn't actually you pressing buttons. One can quickly be banned from the European market for violating anti-discrimination laws.

Hacking can theoretically be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Botting can not. Valve have invested ~10M$ into a system that allows them to ban hackers with legally-sound proof (VAC) in games like Counter Strike. Something ZOS will never do. Thus, even hackers get unbanned eventually after threatening with EU authorities. I know one personally.

What ZOS really needs (and is working on) is a system that disturbs most bots. An auto-disconnect given certain behavior. Sure, good programmers will always find ways around it, but the mass population that is only able to press button x, then button y will be out. If they manage to break/detect MMOViper, 95% of the bot population will be gone overnight. And the smart guys with their self-written bots... well, you probably haven't met them anyway. They have complex algorithms that bot in places where there are no players and move on when players are incoming.

Elsonso

Meld777 wrote: »

Yes, ZOS have a clause in their ToS meant to allow bot banning. But there are also national laws ZOS has to comply to, which are mainly anti-discrimination laws, in other words, "laws against screwing specific (paying) customers out of a group of many". And when those kinda laws are touched, the strictest level of evidence gathering has to be considered. To make it short, unless ZOS has a video of you in your house launching the bot and botting in ESO, whatever data they have, will not be enough to prove it wasn't actually you pressing buttons. One can quickly be banned from the European market for violating anti-discrimination laws.

Yet, ZOS does ban people who bot. For me, the issue isn't that they don't do it. They do ban them, or at least apparently so. It just takes them so long to get around to it that there isn't much point in doing it.

Malmai

Jamascus wrote: »

Lord wrote: »

jcaceresw wrote: »

I get pretty tired of seeing posts about bots, people cheating on PVP and people who can make insane amounts of mats and selling them for millions gold everyday. I guess it's high time to stop subbing and moving on. No, you can't have my stuff. I may give them to my friend.

I'm getting tired of all this too.
I hope ZOS will listen to player feedback this time and something will be done to stop the bots & if possible other exploits and cheating.
It seems there isn't any software at ZOS side which can detect the botting.
An effective anti bot system is needed.

They implemented anti-bot mechanics in summer of 2014, the lighting patch. It ruined cyrodiil because it causes so much lag. Cyrodiil has yet to recover. They need to remove that part of the lighting patch.

Yes its bot anticheat that destroyed this game...

Malacthulhu

Wow Zos has not commented yet?

This is John Conner. We are at war with the bots, if you can read this, you are the resistance....

Universe

Meld777 wrote: »

Lord wrote: »

Botting of any shape or form is not allowed in ESO.
Quote from ToS:
[snip]

There are active bots.
ZOS just didn't ban them yet.
If anyone who read this thread is planning to join the bots, I strongly suggest that you STOP thinking about it and don't do it.
Botting is not allowed and may lead to your account being banned/actioned.

I hope that a solution for the botting issue will be found soon.

This is a very optimistic view. You know, there is a law in Russia saying that if an officer of the law takes a bribe, he goes to prison. Yet, especially outside of capital cities, it is common practice for policemen to not pick up their salary for up to a year because it's way below survival level. Police make their living off bribes and it is accepted by society. Otherwise there would be no police at all because there is not enough money (well, there is, but it's on few people's personal bank accounts).

Yes, ZOS have a clause in their ToS meant to allow bot banning. But there are also national laws ZOS has to comply to, which are mainly anti-discrimination laws, in other words, "laws against screwing specific (paying) customers out of a group of many". And when those kinda laws are touched, the strictest level of evidence gathering has to be considered. To make it short, unless ZOS has a video of you in your house launching the bot and botting in ESO, whatever data they have, will not be enough to prove it wasn't actually you pressing buttons. One can quickly be banned from the European market for violating anti-discrimination laws.

Hacking can theoretically be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Botting can not. Valve have invested ~10M$ into a system that allows them to ban hackers with legally-sound proof (VAC) in games like Counter Strike. Something ZOS will never do. Thus, even hackers get unbanned eventually after threatening with EU authorities. I know one personally.

What ZOS really needs (and is working on) is a system that disturbs most bots. An auto-disconnect given certain behavior. Sure, good programmers will always find ways around it, but the mass population that is only able to press button x, then button y will be out. If they manage to break/detect MMOViper, 95% of the bot population will be gone overnight. And the smart guys with their self-written bots... well, you probably haven't met them anyway. They have complex algorithms that bot in places where there are no players and move on when players are incoming.

I'm not a lawyer nor I'm an expert of European consumer law.
But I do know that ZOS have the right to ban the account/s or IP/s of persons who violate the terms of service.
As to how ZOS can prove the violation/s is up to them.
It is important that ZOS do something to stop this botting mess.

Malacthulhu wrote: »

Wow Zos has not commented yet?

This is John Conner. We are at war with the bots, if you can read this, you are the resistance....

I don't know if they will respond here, almost a month has passed since this thread was opened and there was no response, not even an acknowledgement of the issue.
They responded to minor issues but ignored most of the threads of major issues.
One example of response to minor issue concerning one player(today):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4387897#Comment_4387897

Meld777

Lord wrote: »

I'm not a lawyer nor I'm an expert of European consumer law.
But I do know that ZOS have the right to ban the account/s or IP/s of persons who violate the terms of service.
As to how ZOS can prove the violation/s is up to them.
It is important that ZOS do something to stop this botting mess.

I happen to be a lawyer and, sadly, the moment they take money from their customers it's not up to them.
It's kind of an equivalent to opening a store in the US and refusing your service to black people. If ZOS adds "No Mexicans" to their ToS, they won't have a good time and it wouldn't be up to them. And in the EU, it's if the customer is a consumer (private individual who paid money for a good or service) and violates the terms and conditions of a contract (e.g. ZOS' ToS), a company can only act on it if the consumer's fault is proven beyond any doubt, i.e. 100%. Basically, the consumer has to admit to his wrongdoings... or you have to install some super-complex systems like VAC that prove wrongdoings beyond any reasonable doubt. And even VAC doesn't detect bots, only hacks/cheats. NOTE: Even VAC does not ban you from the game itself, only restricts access to certain servers that are considered "VAC-protected". In the very beginning, it used to ban the whole Steam account, but then Valve tasted some EU legislation.

Bots exist in pretty much all games out there, and only F2P games can afford to ban them. But what they all can do is implement a system that detects bot-like behavior or known bot software (e.g. MMOViper) and causes disconnects. No botter will cry to customer support about getting disconnected 1 min into the bot running.

TL;DR EU legislation = it's better if 999 botters bot/hack than if 1000 accounts get banned and one of them is a false-positive consumer.

VerboseQuips

This bot wave is maybe a foreshadowing of the doors of the Clockwork City being opened soon.

Universe

VerboseQuips wrote: »

This bot wave is maybe a foreshadowing of the doors of the Clockwork City being opened soon.

Then the city should have been opened a long time ago
The botting issue is ancient.

Universe

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom responded in this new "bots" thread today:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4394649#Comment_4394649

There is still no response from ZOS staff in this thread.
I hope that ZOS will do something and post a comment in this thread too.
An acknowledgement of the issue and something like... we are working on ways to better detect bots will be very nice to see.
This thread is more than just a report, it is also a discussion about ways to resolve the botting issue.