Warden solution HERE!

scipionumatia

both in-game and on forums there have been two resounding issues with people playing AGAINST wardens in PVP and with people playing AS wardens in pvp (and I guess pve). the issues are as follows:

1- WHEN PLAYING AGAINST A WARDEN- "cliff racer shouldn't be undodgeable" "too strong when used by several wardens" and my own complaint I brought up a few weeks ago on here "cliff racer should be reflected" which some agreed with, some didn't.

2- WHEN PLAYING AS WARDEN- "bear ulti is trash" "bad AI" "doesn't hold agro" "too little damage, too slow" "needs to be double slotted and is bad ability"

I feel we can fix both of these issues with a simple change:

Take away bear as an ulti. instead have it be a basic class skill. still needs to be double slotted and have it work in line with how a sorc pet would work (permanent until killed/unsummoned). Have stam and mag morphs, and ZOS can adjust these morph effects as they see fit. (major savagery while slotted, major prophecy while slotted, Bleed dot on activation, etc take your pick)

Change cliff racer to animal companion ulti. Make it graphically larger so it doesn't look like a glowing Pidgeon. This should work as a RANGED ulti that could be comparable to Templar crescent sweep or DK Take flight or fighters guild Dawnbreaker (in the way of Burst area damage). Have it be the classes "low cost ulti" somewhere between 75-120. Keep it undodgeable, add a knockdown effect and have stam and mag morphs.

As things sit right now, many wardens aren't using bears unless theyre leveling the skill tree. As a class defining skill wardens should have bears, I mean the class symbol is a bear paw for [Freicks] sake! And if you have visited cyrodiil recently you may have noticed the copious amount of magicians pulling what appears to be radio-active pigeons out of thin air and pelting their enemies with them.

Do this change and it should fix some of the more prominent complaints people have with the warden class.

old_mufasa

scipionumatia wrote: »

As things sit right now, many wardens aren't using bears unless theyre leveling the skill tree. As a class defining skill wardens should have bears, I mean the class symbol is a bear paw for [Freicks] sake! And if you have visited cyrodiil recently you may have noticed the copious amount of magicians pulling what appears to be radio-active pigeons out of thin air and pelting their enemies with them.

Speak for yourself.. not all of us..

As the bear ultimate extremely strong single target DPS ultimate.. and is great in boss PVE fights... As a stam warden bear my main ultimate in pve vet dungeons...

And no they should not remove un-dodge able part of cliff racers... there is this ability all class's have.. its called block try using it.. if being focused by many wardens at range.. los them or run away.

Oh and FYI.. its not supposed to hold AGRO!! its not a tank pet its a DPS pet...

The only changes they need to make is make it only take up one slot.. though I think this should be for all pets not just the warden ultimate.. the attack speed animation should be sped up and the ultimate costing attack should have a charge mechanic or teleport mechanic attached to using it. In single target dps fights like boss fights it puts out a lot of dps over the course of the fight.

Smmokkee

I actually like this idea.


I guess I shouldnt be surprised zos effed that up. Seems like a much better idea.

BigBragg

So you want to warden to play more like classes that already exist?

p.s. They already have a low cost ultimate. Secluded Grove and it's morphs at 75 a pop.

idk

Sorry but I stopped at the first point made. It's really ooor taste to judge a skill by the damage taken when being attack by "several" players.

Somehow a skill should be survivable when being attack buy many players that just so happen to be using the same skill.

Understand, I am not arguing any change should or should not happen but the premise of the argument is weak. 1v3/4 should be very challenging. i recall the player QQing about RO being so strong because he was killed by a party of 10 with 9 Templars using the skill, the 10th was a NB iirc. Like he was going to survive.

Smmokkee

BigBragg wrote: »

So you want to warden to play more like classes that already exist?

p.s. They already have a low cost ultimate. Secluded Grove and it's morphs at 75 a pop.

How would it play any differently really? All it does is stop the pvp spam of dive and, make the bear more useful? Like what?


This actually helps stamina built wardens.

Smmokkee

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Sorry but I stopped at the first point made. It's really ooor taste to judge a skill by the damage taken when being attack by "several" players.

Somehow a skill should be survivable when being attack buy many players that just so happen to be using the same skill.

Understand, I am not arguing any change should or should not happen but the premise of the argument is weak. 1v3/4 should be very challenging. i recall the player QQing about RO being so strong because he was killed by a party of 10 with 9 Templars using the skill, the 10th was a NB iirc. Like he was going to survive.

I stopped reading at your first sentence..

RoyJade

So, you're basically saying removing the only warden spammabe, removing their distant skill and replace it by a weak passive pet ? No, thanks.
Cliffracer is slow to cast and hit, it's his weakness. Bursting is not really easy with it, and it put less offensive pressure than for example radiant destruction. It has no cc, average damage, is absorbable, can be blocked and is previsible. Yes, it's an absolute dodge-runner killer, but it's not broken. Crushing shock deal same damage while being instant, put secondary effect (concussion/chill mostly), active poisons/enchants and cc you if you're casting.


Bear isn't bad, only the IA is really awful. The double slot is as boring as sorc's pets, and really need to be changed. Personally, I'ld have to see these pets be temporary unsummoned when you switch on the nonslotted bar, then re-summoned when switching to the slotted bar. Of course, they would still need to be summoned with their cast time but will stay either visible (slotted bar) or hidden in a close Oblivion plane (non-slotted bar). And for the ultimate bear, it should disappear and then reappear on the targeted enemy when the special ability is used.

BigBragg

Smmokkee wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

So you want to warden to play more like classes that already exist?

p.s. They already have a low cost ultimate. Secluded Grove and it's morphs at 75 a pop.

How would it play any differently really? All it does is stop the pvp spam of dive and, make the bear more useful? Like what?

You answered your own question. Removing their spammable attack is a large change to any class. In pvp it has enough animation to telegraph that it is coming and you can block or shield up. The counter to the magica version is to gap close reducing the damage output and putting the warden on the defensive. Changing the bear just would free up ultimate slot for builds, but doesn't really make it any more useful as a skill unto itself. This all goes back to my point of reducing the uniqueness of the warden class in both magicka and stamina regards.

p.s. You also want to get rid of a ranged attack that can make stamina builds less reliant on bows.

idk

@RoyJade

True. I had focused my reply on the fact the example provided by OP was being focused by a group though that seemed to be a challenging concept for some.

While I had considered how slow the skill is, a lot of time to react and block/shield, but has not read to the OPs solution. Not only does OP want to remove the classes only spamable but wants it replaced with a skill that requires it to be double barred. Might as well play a Sorc.

SodanTok

This is not a solution. This is some weird experiment where you focused on 2 things SOME people complained about and do some switcheroo.

This would break more things than fix... and that is if we consider things you say are problem in need of fix.
Not to mention you literally "fixed" nothing about bear and just removed the main spammable from class that has no else and made it bursty ulti something that is the last thing the class needs.

TequilaFire

Another "professional" nerf thread.

idk

SodanTok wrote: »

This is not a solution. This is some weird experiment where you focused on 2 things SOME people complained about and do some switcheroo.

This would break more things than fix... and that is if we consider things you say are problem in need of fix.
Not to mention you literally "fixed" nothing about bear and just removed the main spammable from class that has no else and made it bursty ulti something that is the last thing the class needs.

I'm sure you noticed OP hasn't posted since creating the thread. The only person who seems to agree posted more like a troll monkey or his best friend in game.

I think it's clear we don't have to worry about these changes.

Smasherx74

old_mufasa wrote: »

As the bear ultimate extremely strong single target DPS ultimate.. and is great in boss PVE fights.

I'm guessing you've never played competitively before.

Let us know when you hit 40k in trials using the bear.

Shadeaux

I think the Warden is fine in PvP. I win some, I lose some.

The undodgeable racer makes up for the lack of an execute and gap closer.

My 2 cents.

DDuke

Smasherx74 wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

As the bear ultimate extremely strong single target DPS ultimate.. and is great in boss PVE fights.

I'm guessing you've never played competitively before.

Let us know when you hit 40k in trials using the bear.

Damage wise, bear is the strongest single target ultimate in the game and the cheap cost means you can have very high Master Architect/War Machine uptime.

Problem is that the bear is quite buggy at the moment and often just disappears, which means you have to resummon it.

There are also some boss mechanics that instakill the bear, so for these fights the bear is useless.


If ZOS just fixed the AI and the bugs, no one would have cause to complain about the bear.

Phatmattfu

Smasherx74 wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

As the bear ultimate extremely strong single target DPS ultimate.. and is great in boss PVE fights.

I'm guessing you've never played competitively before.

Let us know when you hit 40k in trials using the bear.

It will be possible, during execute phases at least. Hits way harder than 40k.
But I haven't taken one to a trial yet, so can't say with certainty

SydneyGrey

Wardens don't have a whole lot of offensive spells. The cliff racer is one of their only good offensive spells. You can't take that away without crippling them very badly. (I know you didn't say to take it away completely, but if it's an ultimate ability, then it would *mostly* take it away, at least for a lot of the time.)
For offensive spells they have the cliff racers, the shalks, fetcherflies and one ice spell. That's it.

idk

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Wardens don't have a whole lot of offensive spells. The cliff racer is one of their only good offensive spells. You can't take that away without crippling them very badly. (I know you didn't say to take it away completely, but if it's an ultimate ability, then it would *mostly* take it away, at least for a lot of the time.)
For offensive spells they have the cliff racers, the shalks, fetcherflies and one ice spell. That's it.

Actually, he wanted to make it the ult and bear a regular summons so yes, he wanted to take away the skill as is. Remove the only spamable for the class.

Vercingetorix

[/quote]
As the bear ultimate extremely strong single target DPS ultimate..
[/quote]

High DPS against a target skeleton doesn't count.

It's not realistic in actual combat performance where the enemy in question is mobile and since the bear doesn't hold agro, it's attacks miss frequently, including the ultimate attack. The bear needs an overhaul and yes, it NEEDS to taunt. It's not a suggestion, it's a damn requirement - and it needs to be dealt with soon.

MLGProPlayer

Magicka warden is trash overall.

All of their abilities are severely underpowered. They need at least another 5k DPS to be competitive with the other classes (not even talking magicka sorc here, they are 5k behind NB/templar/DK). If you don't slot bear ultimate, then they need another 7-8k DPS to be competitive with NB/templar/DK, which is just sad.

I would fix by:

- Up the damage of Fetcher Infection + add a debuff (this doesn't really affect PvP since burst is the name of the game there)
- Fix Winter's Revenge so it properly crits (it crits at 10% below your spell crit right now; a bug that was reported at least 2 million times in beta and still hasn't been fixed)
- Make Cliff Racer dodgeable but increase the damage (maybe turn it into an execute)
- Give the bear an AOE attack when you cast ult OR make the bear a single bar ability (wardens have no way of quickly clearing trash mobs/adds right now, making them useless in trials)

All easy fixes that don't affect PvP balance while actually making warden viable for endgame PvE content.

aisriyth_ESO

Overall, i like the bear as an Ultimate. I just wish pet ai/pathing was better. On paper the bear is pretty good its just in function it falls behind.

I don't want to see them swap, i don't want to see warden made into more of a sorc or more of a templar.

Unfortunately, a lot of the buff warden/nerf warden statements are coming from a view point that the warden should parse like a sorc yet support almost as well as a templar. The way the class is currently designed it would be way too broken, if the morphs were more exclusive that dictated its damage vs healing vs support vs tanking usage then i think we could talk.

idk

Vercingetorix wrote: »

As the bear ultimate extremely strong single target DPS ultimate..
[/quote]

High DPS against a target skeleton doesn't count.

It's not realistic in actual combat performance where the enemy in question is mobile and since the bear doesn't hold agro, it's attacks miss frequently, including the ultimate attack. The bear needs an overhaul and yes, it NEEDS to taunt. It's not a suggestion, it's a damn requirement - and it needs to be dealt with soon.[/quote]

The bear doesn't need a taunt and few boss fights have a lot of movement. For most of them if they're moving the tank is doing something wrong. If your talking about WB without a tank then that's more of a personal issue. Most classes done have pets. No need for any of them to taunt.

MLGProPlayer

old_mufasa wrote: »

scipionumatia wrote: »

As things sit right now, many wardens aren't using bears unless theyre leveling the skill tree. As a class defining skill wardens should have bears, I mean the class symbol is a bear paw for [Freicks] sake! And if you have visited cyrodiil recently you may have noticed the copious amount of magicians pulling what appears to be radio-active pigeons out of thin air and pelting their enemies with them.

Speak for yourself.. not all of us..

As the bear ultimate extremely strong single target DPS ultimate.. and is great in boss PVE fights... As a stam warden bear my main ultimate in pve vet dungeons...

And no they should not remove un-dodge able part of cliff racers... there is this ability all class's have.. its called block try using it.. if being focused by many wardens at range.. los them or run away.

Oh and FYI.. its not supposed to hold AGRO!! its not a tank pet its a DPS pet...

The only changes they need to make is make it only take up one slot.. though I think this should be for all pets not just the warden ultimate.. the attack speed animation should be sped up and the ultimate costing attack should have a charge mechanic or teleport mechanic attached to using it. In single target dps fights like boss fights it puts out a lot of dps over the course of the fight.

Bear ult is useless in trials where you need AOE ults to clear trash mobs/adds. It's also useless in dungeons when you are going for a speed run. It needs some kind of AOE attack, or to only use up one ability slot (so you can also slot an AOE ult). AOE ults are mandatory for endgame.

rotaugen454

Translation: I was killed by Wardens.

Tryxus

I would prefer it if the Cliff Racer was changed from a spammable to an actual pet, since it doesn't really feel like a Companion. You're telling the bird to go kill itself by dive bombing an enemy! Rather use Force Pulse while the Cliff Racer flies right next to me.

As for the bear, it is actually a very strong ultimate. But I think the problem doesn't lie with the bear, it lies with the Warden: we have to sacrifice a 2nd Ultimate just to use it.

So what I would propose is that while the bear is slotted, the Warden would gain a hefty stat buff: HP, Mag & Stam along with Damage & Crit, Weapon or Spell depending on the morph. This to make up for the loss of our 2nd Ulti and for the MagDens it would solve their DPS issues a bit

SodanTok

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

scipionumatia wrote: »

As things sit right now, many wardens aren't using bears unless theyre leveling the skill tree. As a class defining skill wardens should have bears, I mean the class symbol is a bear paw for [Freicks] sake! And if you have visited cyrodiil recently you may have noticed the copious amount of magicians pulling what appears to be radio-active pigeons out of thin air and pelting their enemies with them.

Speak for yourself.. not all of us..

As the bear ultimate extremely strong single target DPS ultimate.. and is great in boss PVE fights... As a stam warden bear my main ultimate in pve vet dungeons...

And no they should not remove un-dodge able part of cliff racers... there is this ability all class's have.. its called block try using it.. if being focused by many wardens at range.. los them or run away.

Oh and FYI.. its not supposed to hold AGRO!! its not a tank pet its a DPS pet...

The only changes they need to make is make it only take up one slot.. though I think this should be for all pets not just the warden ultimate.. the attack speed animation should be sped up and the ultimate costing attack should have a charge mechanic or teleport mechanic attached to using it. In single target dps fights like boss fights it puts out a lot of dps over the course of the fight.

Bear ult is useless in trials where you need AOE ults to clear trash mobs/adds. It's also useless in dungeons when you are going for a speed run. It needs some kind of AOE attack, or to only use up one ability slot (so you can also slot an AOE ult). AOE ults are mandatory for endgame.

So use the AoE ults that other use? That is the like the smallest warden related problem given how every or almost every popular ult in this game is from other skill trees than class ones.
Not saying that the bear couldnt use some bug fixing or buffing (it feals more like 1.5 ult not 2 ult in one), but some ult not being viable in trials is really not important

Drakkdjinn

throw my name in the hat here: mWard Healing ult is too cheap and promotes fights that are full of cheese. almost as lame as shield stacking one-button-hero sorcs

TheBonesXXX

Don't touch my Cliff Racer, thanks.

Enslaved

How about no? Cliff Racer is the only skill on Warden that poses even mild threat to enemies. All who QQ about it being non dodgeable, try evasion.

scipionumatia

Alright looks like I touched a nerve with some of the more sensitive individuals on the forums. I guess all I can say is "geeze sorry for posting what I thought is a good idea I guess I'll just keep my mouth shut from now on".

These are common complaints I've been seeing since the warden made its debut so I was thinking of a solution.

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Translation: I was killed by Wardens.

And yeah I'm sure at one time I was but that's not where this is coming from, like not even a little bit. I've actually spent the last week playing my
Magwarden and getting to know the class. Thank you for your top tier comment though, I'm sure you find yourself hilarious.