Is it really fair??? (Hard counters in game)

Killset

LjAnimalchin wrote: »

I can't believe its halfway through 2017 and people are still crying about cloak, like a bunch of babies that didn't develop object permanence yet.
If cloak is overperforming so is breath of life, annulment, hardened ward, streak, dark exchange, vigor, rally etc...
Except they aren't are they? And neither is cloak. It's just different from what your class does. Please scrap these silly ideas of honor and such, implying a nightblade should stand and fight like a man, when most people play this game for fun.

Well said.

DeHei

I really dont understand, why you wrote this Thread. Nightblades can go in stealth like 99% of time and there is a reason, why there is a counter for that. Nearly all mechanics in game have a counter and you need to live with them. When you allways habe trouble with a kind of counter like you said, then *** rework your build!
For example with my light armor weared Templar i prefer hardened ward instead of my class burstheal now too, because with it i can go more Damage and Sustain and less tanky. I play a tricky build with mass Dots and ground effects and switched for example firestaff to lightningstaff. I will be defeated after that changes too, but only now i am able to kill all builds i know. Just shuffle and dodging are problems for me now, because i need Degeneration and vampires bane all time on enemy, but i can live with that. I can for example kill much of these permablock magicka DKs, where most guys have stress with. So pls explain, why you dont just rework your build or play more careful to deal with your counters?

Anti_Virus

Remove reflective scales from this list that skill won't hard counter anything.

Ectheliontnacil

@Anti_Virus

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Remove reflective scales from this list that skill won't hard counter anything.

Its usefulness is disputable, however I don't think the existence of reflect skills is justifiable. One skill makes a wide range of damage abilities completely ineffective. Even blocking doesn't mitigate all damage! I am all on board with damage reduction...but damage negation??? No, that's just wrong.
And on top of that the projectile actually harms the attacker...ffs it's such a silly concept.

yodased

You are funny.

Zordrage

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@Anti_Virus

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Remove reflective scales from this list that skill won't hard counter anything.

Its usefulness is disputable, however I don't think the existence of reflect skills is justifiable. One skill makes a wide range of damage abilities completely ineffective. Even blocking doesn't mitigate all damage! I am all on board with damage reduction...but damage negation??? No, that's just wrong.
And on top of that the projectile actually harms the attacker...ffs it's such a silly concept.

yeah ? tell me how any Non Tank players can survive a 1v1 ambush from a nightblade while trying to get somewhere......

your entire class is a hard counter to anyone in a 1v1 that is not a pure tank and kill people in seconds after the opening...hard counter to majority of the DPS specced people out there....

buhbuhbuh cant reliably 1v5 people and have 100% chance to get allways away and reopen instakill them 1 by 1 till they all are dead buhbuhbuh......

if anything we need more Hard counters build in every single class specificaly againts Nightblades......
maybe then 80% of Cyro would not be Nighblades......

( yes im a Nighblade hater most broken class in this game )

Ectheliontnacil

Zoliru wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@Anti_Virus

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Remove reflective scales from this list that skill won't hard counter anything.

Its usefulness is disputable, however I don't think the existence of reflect skills is justifiable. One skill makes a wide range of damage abilities completely ineffective. Even blocking doesn't mitigate all damage! I am all on board with damage reduction...but damage negation??? No, that's just wrong.
And on top of that the projectile actually harms the attacker...ffs it's such a silly concept.

yeah ? tell me how any Non Tank players can survive a 1v1 ambush from a nightblade while trying to get somewhere......

your entire class is a hard counter to anyone in a 1v1 that is not a pure tank and kill people in seconds after the opening...hard counter to majority of the DPS specced people out there....

buhbuhbuh cant reliably 1v5 people and have 100% chance to get allways away and reopen instakill them 1 by 1 till they all are dead buhbuhbuh......

if anything we need more Hard counters build in every single class specificaly againts Nightblades......
maybe then 80% of Cyro would not be Nighblades......

( yes im a Nighblade hater most broken class in this game )

There are so many things wrong in this post, that I can't address all of them. But if you want to provide feedback, please be constructive about it

JinMori

Sacredx wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

hard counters, which simply kill a certain build in 99,9% of all situations ruin good gamplay.

I take that this is the reason for your post? Assuming it is and deconstructing your sentence:

hard counters - Rock, paper scissors mechanics used in a lot of games.
simply kill a certain build - special build "Rock" gets beaten by special build "Paper". Someone else comes along with special build "Scissors" to kill paper and the cycle restarts.

I personally don't see anything wrong in that. You can always adjust your own build to mitigate the counters that your are having trouble fighting against (and yes there are counters to everything). But in doing that you will probably sacrifice your potential. But hey, that's what the opponent has done so its only fair that they should be able to outplay you.

I think your issue is based on solo play. Keep in mind that this is an MMO and not a competitive pvp game. That means you do whatever it takes to beat the enemy. Casuals tend to zerg, strong players tend to form good synergy groups, these are just some tactics that work really well, but all can easily be countered if the players possess the "know how"!

Here is some sample group play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyVnin4bXDU

Try group play and make a strong team, then tell me that its not fair

But it is fair, if people are more coordinated, and generally better, they should stomp you if you don't have the same skills.

There is no equality when someone is clearly better.

Ectheliontnacil

JinMori wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

hard counters, which simply kill a certain build in 99,9% of all situations ruin good gamplay.

I take that this is the reason for your post? Assuming it is and deconstructing your sentence:

hard counters - Rock, paper scissors mechanics used in a lot of games.
simply kill a certain build - special build "Rock" gets beaten by special build "Paper". Someone else comes along with special build "Scissors" to kill paper and the cycle restarts.

I personally don't see anything wrong in that. You can always adjust your own build to mitigate the counters that your are having trouble fighting against (and yes there are counters to everything). But in doing that you will probably sacrifice your potential. But hey, that's what the opponent has done so its only fair that they should be able to outplay you.

I think your issue is based on solo play. Keep in mind that this is an MMO and not a competitive pvp game. That means you do whatever it takes to beat the enemy. Casuals tend to zerg, strong players tend to form good synergy groups, these are just some tactics that work really well, but all can easily be countered if the players possess the "know how"!

Here is some sample group play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyVnin4bXDU

Try group play and make a strong team, then tell me that its not fair

But it is fair, if people are more coordinated, and generally better, they should stomp you if you don't have the same skills.

There is no equality when someone is clearly better.

Clearly better? No they are not clearly better, this is a group of semi decent players coordinated with discord and of course they're better than your average zerg. I don't even have a problem with those guys steamrolling through Cyrodiil ( though lets be honest, these groups are pretty cancer ), but why do they need hard counters at their disposal. This group is already doing fine without hard counters, why do they need to have people spamming detects and ***, its hard enough to get away from them as it is...

JinMori

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

hard counters, which simply kill a certain build in 99,9% of all situations ruin good gamplay.

I take that this is the reason for your post? Assuming it is and deconstructing your sentence:

hard counters - Rock, paper scissors mechanics used in a lot of games.
simply kill a certain build - special build "Rock" gets beaten by special build "Paper". Someone else comes along with special build "Scissors" to kill paper and the cycle restarts.

I personally don't see anything wrong in that. You can always adjust your own build to mitigate the counters that your are having trouble fighting against (and yes there are counters to everything). But in doing that you will probably sacrifice your potential. But hey, that's what the opponent has done so its only fair that they should be able to outplay you.

I think your issue is based on solo play. Keep in mind that this is an MMO and not a competitive pvp game. That means you do whatever it takes to beat the enemy. Casuals tend to zerg, strong players tend to form good synergy groups, these are just some tactics that work really well, but all can easily be countered if the players possess the "know how"!

Here is some sample group play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyVnin4bXDU

Try group play and make a strong team, then tell me that its not fair

But it is fair, if people are more coordinated, and generally better, they should stomp you if you don't have the same skills.

There is no equality when someone is clearly better.

Clearly better? No they are not clearly better, this is a group of semi decent players coordinated with discord and of course they're better than your average zerg. I don't even have a problem with those guys steamrolling through Cyrodiil ( though lets be honest, these groups are pretty cancer ), but why do they need hard counters at their disposal. This group is already doing fine without hard counters, why do they need to have people spamming detects and ***, its hard enough to get away from them as it is...

But they are better, they are using discord, they are organizing, they are better at playing, they are just better, you are just salty that you got roflstomped by some organized group.

The fact alone that they are using discord, is making them better, because they took the time to organize with the group, and join discord, even if they were pretty bad players, that alone would make them better then the average zerg.

What's really cancer, are group of 100 + players making groupballs, and lagging all over cyrodill, thank god these kinds of group exists to take out these trash players, that joined a massive zerg, because they could not even kill a single average player.

You just want to have everyone on the same level, by bringing down the good players to advantage the bad, but that's ***, if you are a good player, you get more kills, you survive longer, that's how it works in the real world also.

The ideology of bringing down the good to advantage the bad is identical to taking from the rich and giving to the poor, that's communism, and it's ***.

Also: This group is already doing fine without hard counters, why do they need to have people spamming detects and ***, its hard enough to get away from them as it is...

hard counters works both ways, why aren't you using them?

[snip]

Edited for baiting

JinMori

Is something doesn't have any counters, then it's generally op, you just wanna have a skill that allows you to destroy players, just because it's op.

Stealth, crouch, one shot, and then cannot be countered, and go back to stealth again, rinse and repeat.

I cannot believe that you didn't think about this.

BlitzWing97

The main flaw with your questions, is that your asking for a build which can top everything. That is not how the game works. If you wish to be good in one aspect of the game you must give up another aspect. Such that a damage dealer relinquishes their health to gain absurd magika/stamina based damage buffs.

Its just how it is. It prevents players from being OTT and OP simultaneously.
You're going to die. So stop complaining. If you meet a player that happens to be your Achilles heel. Tough luck. But you're going to be someone else's Achilles heel. If you're not, and you're playing the way you find comfortable, you won't succeed in anything. You'll most probably be an all round player [not built for PvP] which means you will struggle. End of.

Ghost-Shot

Stopped reading when you said detect pots should go, really there should be more counters to pull NB's out of cloak. That skill is stupid OP.

Grimhallow

SodanTok wrote: »

Just FYI for
2. In this scenario, scales are hard counter to your ability to kill him. Nothing wrong here. Leave him be or force him waste all resources on countering your light attacks.
3. This scenario is impossible to happen. Someone spamming shieldbreaker wont kill sorc and sorc will never stay in fight he has chance to lose. Is shieldbreaker counter? It is, but hardly hard...

Piercing mark is hard counter, more to stamblades than magblades (since they can actually use hard counter to this hard counter), but it is rare skill and competent NB have no problem dealing with it. Tho I would say it should not disable cloak (so you can still use it to get defensive boost and crits)

I largely agree with your assessment. However, I have to disagree with you on shieldbreaker. It is a hard counter if an experienced player can lose a 1v1 to a player who is only using light attacks. That being said, I do think shields need a good counter- but I don't like the way shield breaker works. If it allowed you to crit shields, or maybe that you could penetrate 50% of the shield (so that the shield is then equivalent to blocking in terms of mitigation), then that would be one thing. But oblivion damage is crazy strong, especially when your main heal is healing ward. All a sorc can do is run away or hope for a saving grace crystal frag for a quick burst kill.

But again, in general, I agree that these situations are not much of a problem. So what if you lose a 1vX every once in a while? It comes with the territory. However, the way shield breaker works simply is not fun for either side. It lacks depth on the shield breaker side and negates all defensive gameplay short of running away on the shield side, which represents a big design flaw.

Xvorg

2017 and people still complaining about cloak?

Regarding shieldbreaker, it works on 1/8 (maybe 1/4) of the enemies you encounter. It's a stupid set

Ectheliontnacil

@JinMori

JinMori wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

hard counters, which simply kill a certain build in 99,9% of all situations ruin good gamplay.

I take that this is the reason for your post? Assuming it is and deconstructing your sentence:

hard counters - Rock, paper scissors mechanics used in a lot of games.
simply kill a certain build - special build "Rock" gets beaten by special build "Paper". Someone else comes along with special build "Scissors" to kill paper and the cycle restarts.

I personally don't see anything wrong in that. You can always adjust your own build to mitigate the counters that your are having trouble fighting against (and yes there are counters to everything). But in doing that you will probably sacrifice your potential. But hey, that's what the opponent has done so its only fair that they should be able to outplay you.

I think your issue is based on solo play. Keep in mind that this is an MMO and not a competitive pvp game. That means you do whatever it takes to beat the enemy. Casuals tend to zerg, strong players tend to form good synergy groups, these are just some tactics that work really well, but all can easily be countered if the players possess the "know how"!

Here is some sample group play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyVnin4bXDU

Try group play and make a strong team, then tell me that its not fair

But it is fair, if people are more coordinated, and generally better, they should stomp you if you don't have the same skills.

There is no equality when someone is clearly better.

Clearly better? No they are not clearly better, this is a group of semi decent players coordinated with discord and of course they're better than your average zerg. I don't even have a problem with those guys steamrolling through Cyrodiil ( though lets be honest, these groups are pretty cancer ), but why do they need hard counters at their disposal. This group is already doing fine without hard counters, why do they need to have people spamming detects and ***, its hard enough to get away from them as it is...

But they are better, they are using discord, they are organizing, they are better at playing, they are just better, you are just salty that you got roflstomped by some organized group.

The fact alone that they are using discord, is making them better, because they took the time to organize with the group, and join discord, even if they were pretty bad players, that alone would make them better then the average zerg.

What's really cancer, are group of 100 + players making groupballs, and lagging all over cyrodill, thank god these kinds of group exists to take out these trash players, that joined a massive zerg, because they could not even kill a single average player.

You just want to have everyone on the same level, by bringing down the good players to advantage the bad, but that's ***, if you are a good player, you get more kills, you survive longer, that's how it works in the real world also.

The ideology of bringing down the good to advantage the bad is identical to taking from the rich and giving to the poor, that's communism, and it's ***.

Also: This group is already doing fine without hard counters, why do they need to have people spamming detects and ***, its hard enough to get away from them as it is...

hard counters works both ways, why aren't you using them?

[snip]

Edited for baiting

If you reply to my comments, try to understand them first.

1) I am salty because I was killed by an organised group? When did I say that? It is true, I don't particularly like them, because they break the campaign and as a solo player, no matter how good you are, you cant do *** about those groups.

2) I want everyone on the same level???? OMG this thread literally wants the exact opposite! When someone uses shieldbreaker on a sorcerer, heavy attack spamming with lightning, that sorcerer is at a disadvantage. It takes away skill, it makes good players more vulnerable to bad players.

3) "That's communism and it is ***" Hahah American chauvinist speaking I guess. And I would like to point out that I in no way showed my support for communism in eso ( tho it would be pretty awesome with how poor I constantly am )

4) Hard counters work both ways??? No they don't!!! So as a shield user I just slot shieldbreaker and I am fine???