Is it really fair??? (Hard counters in game)

WhiteMage

I have only seen one true hard counter in this game: a leki/shieldbreaker/kena werewolf vs my light armored melee magplar with shields. There isn't a snowcone's chance in hell nor a fart's chance in a tornado that I could beat that without completely regearing.

I like hard counters as a concept but their scope must be very limited in order for them to be helpful. The DK's wings are far too powerful (or at least, they could be) to be an acceptable hard counter because they shut out ranged builds, one of only two options. The is merely in concept--melee is superior in practice so that obfuscates it a bit.

Shieldbreaker is a very poor implementation of a counter versus shields, something that should exist. Unfortunately, the lack of CD skills can make the proper implementation exceedingly difficult to actualize. Interrrupts on spammable ranged skills are an example of the pitfalls of a GCD-based combat system. I would say that it is only a hard counter to shields insofar that it requires you to immediately change your play significantly in order to survive it. All in all, I think it is an adequate counter to shields, though it leaves much to be desired.

As for cloak and detect pots... well let's see. For a long time, the rogue archetype has been a squishy stealther that deals large upfront burst and then disappears again. The nightblade is completely unoriginal as a class in that regard so we can compare it to others like it. The NB is special in that it can stealth any time, many times in the middle of battle (a byproduct of the GCD system). Normally this would be reserved as a panic move with a high cooldown, but the NB is able to weaponize this very archetypical ability. When functioning properly, invisibility robs opponents of the initiative in a fight. This, when used skillfully, is absolutely devastating for the opponent and a severe disadvantage. Long story short, invisibility needs a counter, and the only sort of counter it can have as an absolute one. It would be very hard to give it a weak counter that still qualified as a counter.

There aren't many meaningful counters in ESO: there's not many things that make you change how you play. A portion of this could be how poorly mechanics scale to large groups. Hard counters, like counters, come in many shapes and forms, but there are very few that are actually in this game. Following a few guidelines, just about anything in ESO goes. Be greatful when you actually find a counter, even if you are a victim to it, because a lot of the joy in PvP comes from outwitting and outmaneuvering opponents around counters on both sides of the field. Know what they are, know how to use them, and know how to deal with them. There are precious few of them, though.

fred4

To the OP: Well, I can understand that argument. Once I'm up against an organised group, though, I run away. When people optimise their group composition, when they coordinate on Teamspeak, they become WAY stronger. Part of me is usually disgusted that people go to the trouble. You can't compete as a solo player, but you have to acknowledge that organised groups of not-so-good players ARE good at something you don't do.

fred4

Wings felt pretty essential on my medium armor stam DK, which I haven't played in a while. Couldn't defend against sorc burst without them. As someone else said, they are expensive. Only usable intermittently on a stam DK, and balanced that way, I felt. Force Pulse / Crushing Shock now fires through them...

Sacredx

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

hard counters, which simply kill a certain build in 99,9% of all situations ruin good gamplay.

I take that this is the reason for your post? Assuming it is and deconstructing your sentence:

hard counters - Rock, paper scissors mechanics used in a lot of games.
simply kill a certain build - special build "Rock" gets beaten by special build "Paper". Someone else comes along with special build "Scissors" to kill paper and the cycle restarts.

I personally don't see anything wrong in that. You can always adjust your own build to mitigate the counters that your are having trouble fighting against (and yes there are counters to everything). But in doing that you will probably sacrifice your potential. But hey, that's what the opponent has done so its only fair that they should be able to outplay you.

I think your issue is based on solo play. Keep in mind that this is an MMO and not a competitive pvp game. That means you do whatever it takes to beat the enemy. Casuals tend to zerg, strong players tend to form good synergy groups, these are just some tactics that work really well, but all can easily be countered if the players possess the "know how"!

Here is some sample group play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyVnin4bXDU

Try group play and make a strong team, then tell me that its not fair

Emma_Overload

Let me get this straight... OP wants to buff Nightblades by NERFING a Nightblade ability?

LOL, go right ahead!

Jurand80

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Jurand80 wrote: »

i am a msorc speced out to detect and kill nbs. running det pots, det poisons and SA. they are everywhere and they are nowhere uuuuuUUUUUUuuuuu.....

det pots are my fav. i love the look on little kittens face when he starts taking damage and tries to cloak and cloak and dies xD

Whats your point?

And how would you feel when those nightblades all used shieldbreaker and rekt you instead?

the point of my post is that you cant spec to counter every build in the game. i build to counter nb. the rest i can live with. nbs use a shield breaker and i die if they are in a group with someone who takes aggro away. i die everytime to a ww with shieldbreaker but i just live with it.

Ectheliontnacil

@Emma_Overload

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Let me get this straight... OP wants to buff Nightblades by NERFING a Nightblade ability?

LOL, go right ahead!

Come on, you know you're spouting nonsense
A nerf to piercing mark and detect pots would perhaps make nightblade 1v1 fights more even (when one side is using these detection mechanics and the other one isnt ), that is the only "negative" effect.
Overall, especially in outnumbered situations, a nerf to detection mechanics would be a buff to nightblade!
Anyway i think your comment was intended to be a joke...^^ just wanted to make sure.

Jurand80

according to wrobel - you should die when outnumbered and that's what 4v1 is. nb or not. i run with a mnb mate who can charge into a zerg, score a kill and disengage to safety. so maybe it's just you?

edit he runs war maiden front wiz riposte back

CTSCold

Removing hard counters simply because they hurt solo play would be bad for the game. Playing solo in an MMO open world PVP is supposed to be harder. As a NB you need to pick your battles a bit more carefully since you have no burst heal. Don't chase enemies, fight in heavy LOS areas to better use your shade when marked. In other words adapt. Don't attack that guy standing still in the open as he is probably bait for his cloaked NB buddy.

Or slot mark and focus the other NB.

Comfortably_Buzzed

I think my comment will be echoing much of the sentiment already expressed in other comments but I wanted to leave a reply anyway since I only use a magblade for PvP, I prefer running solo or in small groups, and piercing mark is usually a GG for me. The short answer is yes, I do think it's fair to have hard counters in the game. A few months ago I might have felt differently if asked this same question since cloak seemed to break from just someone looking in your direction. Now that it's "fixed" however it's a strong skill, especially in the right hands, and frankly other players need some way to deal with it otherwise it would be too imbalanced.

Hard counters are just one of many mechanisms used for balance and are themselves balanced in various ways. Generally, they are sub-optimal against all builds besides the ones they're designed to counter. Shield breaker is for the most part worthless against non-magsorc players, and piercing mark while great against NBs, is not BiS against any other class. It's not even top five IMO. Scales is great against magblades (though I would not call it a hard counter), but against most other builds DKs have better options. That is the point of skills like these though; they're for people who are willing to sacrifice their own effectiveness for the good of the group. ESO has no shortage of these types of skills either - magicka detonation, purge, siege shield, rapids, are all great examples of skills that are borderline worthless soloing but are outstanding in groups.

Cloak is a great escape skill that allows NBs to disengage from combat and reengage at a point more advantageous for them.
As much as I hate getting marked if cloak didn't have hard counters it would be overpowered as hell. Without them Zeni would have to find some other way to balance cloak. Maybe something like increasing the cost if cast in rapid succession (i.e.bolt escape). I don't like that idea b/c I don't want nightblade to be just a watered down sorc. I want it to have its own strengths and weaknesses. In other words to be its own unique class.

If I'm being honest I don't think it's reasonable to get mad if you attempt to kill players who are part of large group and then are marked and zerged down. As the group size gets bigger the likelihood of a player having mark or flare slotted increases, which means the likelihood of you getting killed increases. In other words exactly what should against increasingly large enemy groups. Reflective scales, damage shields, heals, all lose effectiveness as the size of the enemy group increases. Why should cloak be any different?

sly007

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

1) Cloak is actually overperforming, it's just too good now that's work, and it need a nerf on regen/cost increase like streak or mistform.

But a potion countering (not a good counter for a sorc cuz you can't still attack the palyer) a skill is so stupid, like piercing mark destroying a gameplay is also stupid.

Balance cost by nerf how it can be spammed and remove piercing mark and detect potion.

2) Not being able to attack someone at all because he have one skill is just a bad mechanic, NB need a skill being non reflectable.

Anyway, this game is make for counter magicka : Negate, Eclipse, reflecting scales, spell wall, so much counter against magicka not a single one against stamina, seems weird no ?

3) Shieldbreaker is the most silly thing in that game : alone, a sorc can kill a noob spamming it, but when you are outnumbered, you can't, cuz even if you streak away, the noob can just gap close you and still dealing you uncounterable damage.

Also, shields aren't performing, only shieldstacking is : make annulment and harness not stacking and sorc is balanced. Also remove the cps star that increase damage on shield. Is there a cp increaseing damage against bloking target ? Or one agaisnt dodging target ? No.

I agree with most of you points, but cloak isnt overperforming. I know it is an annoying skill, I know it can be frustrating if an enemy player just cloaks away . However, cloak is really the only defensive ability that nightblades have. They do not have a burst heal in their skill lines, they do not have a shield and they do not have strong defensive buffs like major protection/major mending.

Night blades have major and minor protecting, major and minor berserk, minor maim, major defile, and I believe minor vitality. Man, people that say night blades are squishy are simply wrong. They have strong offensive pressure with good heals and defence. Night blades have an answer to pretty much every class, including their own.

But to stay on topic, a counter to everything is good. But the counter should not completely cripple the person being countered. The only counters to unblockable cc are immovable pots and immovable skill, both are poor counters due to one having a long cooldown and the other being an expensive skill with a short duration. The list goes on. Stamina classes have their own counter issues that involve damage prevention. Curse cannot be blocked or dodged. Sweep and jabs cannot be dodged. Cliff racer most be blocked, cloak or absorbed. Soul assault cost half of some stamina bars to block but can be easy countered with annulment.

Either way, some counters to abilities are designed to pin you against the wall which, as bizarre as that is, seems to be intended, but don't assume only magicka builds have to deal with it.

Sanctum74

I keep seeing people say nb has no access to heals. Lets see they have:

Killers blade
Mark target
Refreshing path
Swallow soul
Siphoning strikes
Sap essence

Vigor
Rally 2 hand
Blood thirst dw
Blood craze dw

For damage mitigation
Dark cloak
Shuffle
Blade cloak dw

Poisons
Enchants

And you get your resistance buffs passively just by attacking. Sometimes you have to adjust your build to compensate, but there are plenty of nb healing options available should you choose to use them.

NBrookus

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@IZZESparkling

IZZESparkling wrote: »

...
You should perhaps slot skills that others have slotted to counter your class/build/playstyle. Because others sacrificed their precious skill slots to counter few classes/builds. And those counters are perfectly fine because it costed them other skills those people might find use for. So slot counter to counters.

Yes, counters cost skills slots. The problem with that however is that zerglings (group players) DO NOT need all their skill slots in most cases. As part of a zerg you get healed, you dont have to worry about cc'ing opponents and you dont require burst combos to finish off your enemies. So a zergling is easily able to give up some skills for piercing mark, able to give up a set bonus for shield breaker or to swap out his potions for detect pots. [Also, cost poisons are really nasty when used by a group that outnumbers you...].
My point here is, that hard counters are always more advantageous for the large group and NOT for a solo player or small group (2-3 people) player.
I play solo 95% of my time in cyrodiil and so it is impossible for me to slot counters to specific builds or even counters to hard counters to my build (WOW its getting complicated here XD ). The reason being that I am limited to a certain amount of gear pieces and skill and I must retain the ability to heal, cc and deal damage.
So in conclusion I would say that hard counters can make a skilled, solo play style completely ineffective. There are already enough mechanics out there to harm solo gameplay, there i really no need for hard counters.

I hope you get what I am trying to say here and I hope you can agree with me on this ^^.

I get what you are saying, but if there are no hard counters imagine what that will do to buff zergs. The worst zerg skills are the ones that are least counterable: destro ult, negate, permafrost, cliff racer spam. Which is, of course, why they run them.

acw37162

Hard counters, yes they are not fair and they are very much needed.

Ectheliontnacil

A lot of people seem to think that I want nightblades to get more healing or that I consider the class weak without the ability to go invisible at will. Well I don't, I am able to play nightblades quite successfully this patch and they're still a lot of fun to play in my opinion (but rip siphoning attacks :....( ). My sole complaint is the fact that there exist some pretty harsh counters to the class.

Lets say I am on my magicka nightblade, fighting 3 players, with relatively decent damage. So naturally I can just outheal their damage, instead I cloak and use shadow image to heal up sometimes and coordinate my attacks. All of a sudden though, I get marked, I won't be able to mitigate any damage: I can't dodgeroll cuz magicka character, I can't use shadow image because people will simply gap close or use ranged attacks and I can't outheal their damage with only healing ward and my good friends the heal-over-times (and maybe dampen magic but that skill sucks imo since it costs way more than hardened ward while being weaker, and sustain is harder anyway this patch.) UNLESS I have some very good terrain I can use, I will not be able to survive that damage for long. Other classes could streak away and reposition themselves, or spam those breath-of-life s or use coagulating blood and ultis to heal up soooo much faster.

So here is my problem: At the press of a button, a zergling can literally smash his head into the keyboard, your ability to survive in combat is reduced by 90%, there's no changing that and it's somehow unbalanced in my humble opinion .
Feel free to disagree though^^

Sanctum74

I understand your point about not having counters and i could also add negates, roots, poisons, unbreakable fear due to lag, and cc immunity not working properly to the list. I think theres a lot of things that could be changed, but seeing the direction things are going i think they would only make it worse.

Many of these things used to never be an issue, but with the damage so high now and the lag the way it is there is just no margin for error or your zerged down. When you cant drink potions, use abilities, swap bars, or get cc immunity then it really doesnt matter how good or bad an ability is.

I just want to see them fix the game and put a cap on cp for pvp. They keep trying to add new things which is great, but if the core gameplay is broke due to lag then it really doesnt matter.

I guess we all have our different issues with the game, but ultimately we keep coming back for more so they gotta be doing something right.

Joy_Division

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

A lot of people seem to think that I want nightblades to get more healing or that I consider the class weak without the ability to go invisible at will. Well I don't, I am able to play nightblades quite successfully this patch and they're still a lot of fun to play in my opinion (but rip siphoning attacks :....( ). My sole complaint is the fact that there exist some pretty harsh counters to the class.

Lets say I am on my magicka nightblade, fighting 3 players, with relatively decent damage. So naturally I can just outheal their damage, instead I cloak and use shadow image to heal up sometimes and coordinate my attacks. All of a sudden though, I get marked, I won't be able to mitigate any damage: I can't dodgeroll cuz magicka character, I can't use shadow image because people will simply gap close or use ranged attacks and I can't outheal their damage with only healing ward and my good friends the heal-over-times (and maybe dampen magic but that skill sucks imo since it costs way more than hardened ward while being weaker, and sustain is harder anyway this patch.) UNLESS I have some very good terrain I can use, I will not be able to survive that damage for long. Other classes could streak away and reposition themselves, or spam those breath-of-life s or use coagulating blood and ultis to heal up soooo much faster.

So here is my problem: At the press of a button, a zergling can literally smash his head into the keyboard, your ability to survive in combat is reduced by 90%, there's no changing that and it's somehow unbalanced in my humble opinion .
Feel free to disagree though^^

You say NB NEED cloak to survive. Well, people in Hell need ice water.

A NB doesn't need cloak to survive. Load up one of Kena's videos. And that you keep saying "Our" and "we" and refer to people who disagree with your stance as "dear Zerglings" just reveals your post to be full of bias.

Most DKs don't even slot Wings anymore because the skill has been nerfed and much of what once could be reflected cannot be any more.

You made a choice to fight 28 meters away with just projectile attacks and want that setup to work Vs. every opponent and be able to press a button and escape whenever you get in trouble. Sorry, no sympathy.

And you keep comparing Cloak with things like Breath of Life as if they were somehow equivalent. They aren't. It's apples to oranges. You know what happens when magplar gets surrounded by 3 good opponents? They die a slow painful death, which breath of life merely delays. A NB at least has a shot of escape / reposition because instant on demand invisibility is an incomparable skill that has potential beyond mere healing - especially when that can be paired with a heal just as good as breath of life and a fantastic heal ultimate just by slotting a resto staff and wearing gear like impreg, wizard's riposte that gives NB's ease of tankiness not normally accessible to the class. And this isn't even getting into the teleport. Because on demand invisibility is an exclusive and powerful skill, unlike a burst heal, it is fair for hard counters to exist,

I will agree that the shieldbreaker set is beyond dumb though.

lrizo

100% agree. If a skill is overperforming in any class the skill should be simply nerfed. Instead the geniuses working at ZOS always think that a counter would be way more effective than actually fixing broken game mechanics. 9 out of 10 times when zos introduces a counter, the counter becomes broken and now there's more broken mechanics in the game. Making room for more patches and fixes. Makes absolutely no sense why zos continues to do such things

revonine

is this thread really about to turn into a "nerf cloak" thread?

cpuScientist

revonine wrote: »

is this thread really about to turn into a "nerf cloak" thread?

Well it was nearly dead until you posted. But since you want it to be a nerf cloak thread why don't you tell us when you hate Nightblades

gecimokus

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

I want to keep this thread very simple. This isn't about class balance, it is about hard counters to certain builds and why I do not think they should exist. Some of these hard counters are:
- Piercing mark/Detect pots
- Reflective scales
- Shieldbreaker
I'll try to illustrate the problem with three examples
1) A magicka nightblade, very skilled player, fights several enemies at once. He cannot tank all of their damage so he has to kite them and quickly burst down some of his opponents. Now there are 4 people on him and he tries to enter stealth, he uses shadow image to teleport away from the group and attempts to cloak but he has been marked, so the enemies see him, gap close to him and kill him. Nightblades especially magicka nightblades NEED cloak in certain situations, because they do not have healing passives and burst heals like templars, dks and wardens and they do not have extra shields or streak like sorcerers. There needs to be some way for nightblades to mitigate damage and piercing mark/ detect pots completely destroys that.
2) Lets stick with the magicka nightblade. We are using a staff build, our offensive skills are perhaps swallow soul/crippling crasp/flame reach and we run into a magicka dragonknight. All he has to do is keep reflective scales active, which is easy since it has a 4 second duration and we cannot do any damage to him whatsoever, anything we do apart from healing will only hurt us! A decent magicka dragonknight simply cannot be killed by this kind of build...should we just accept that?
3)A magicka sorcerer, using shields is fighting a templar healer. All of a sudden another player appears and starts light attacking with his bow. This player is using the shieldsbreaker set and oblivion damage enchants. The sorcerer is taking 1k damage per light attack and his only heal is healing ward (which takes 6 seconds to work, all the time youre taking damage tho) and ofc his other shields, so he has absolutely no way of healing the damage of this second player. Unless he is able to burst the shieldbreaker down in seconds (which is impossible with a templar healer nearby or if hes a decent player) he will die, no matter what he does.

I am not saying counters shouldn't exist in the game, like healing debuffs, like aoes that pull nightblades out of cloak, like cp passives that make you deal more damage against damage shields, BUT hard counters, which simply kill a certain build in 99,9% of all situations ruin good gamplay.

I will probably hear these two things a lot so please let me answer them beforehand:
1) "But counters are good, you have to be SMAAART and tactical to use them, so you should win."
- My dear zergling, just because you run piercing mark, which allows your ZEEERRGGGG to chase down solo player nightblades, doesn't mean you're playing tactically. In fact such mechanics hurt combat tactitcs as there is absolutely no counter play to them.
2) "Sorcs are strong anyway, they deserve it when you use shield breaker on them"
- As I've stated above, this isn't a discussion on class balance. And once you use shield breaker, sorcerers become the weakest opponents out there, thats what the problem is. No matter how strong the class is, no matter how good your build is, a hard counter completely destroys all that.

Please let me know what you think

After reading your article and the all the replies id like to share a youtube video. And my only comment is. Okay so what the hell is this?

https://youtu.be/ygGm_JxMoYA

Waffennacht

gecimokus wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

I want to keep this thread very simple. This isn't about class balance, it is about hard counters to certain builds and why I do not think they should exist. Some of these hard counters are:
- Piercing mark/Detect pots
- Reflective scales
- Shieldbreaker
I'll try to illustrate the problem with three examples
1) A magicka nightblade, very skilled player, fights several enemies at once. He cannot tank all of their damage so he has to kite them and quickly burst down some of his opponents. Now there are 4 people on him and he tries to enter stealth, he uses shadow image to teleport away from the group and attempts to cloak but he has been marked, so the enemies see him, gap close to him and kill him. Nightblades especially magicka nightblades NEED cloak in certain situations, because they do not have healing passives and burst heals like templars, dks and wardens and they do not have extra shields or streak like sorcerers. There needs to be some way for nightblades to mitigate damage and piercing mark/ detect pots completely destroys that.
2) Lets stick with the magicka nightblade. We are using a staff build, our offensive skills are perhaps swallow soul/crippling crasp/flame reach and we run into a magicka dragonknight. All he has to do is keep reflective scales active, which is easy since it has a 4 second duration and we cannot do any damage to him whatsoever, anything we do apart from healing will only hurt us! A decent magicka dragonknight simply cannot be killed by this kind of build...should we just accept that?
3)A magicka sorcerer, using shields is fighting a templar healer. All of a sudden another player appears and starts light attacking with his bow. This player is using the shieldsbreaker set and oblivion damage enchants. The sorcerer is taking 1k damage per light attack and his only heal is healing ward (which takes 6 seconds to work, all the time youre taking damage tho) and ofc his other shields, so he has absolutely no way of healing the damage of this second player. Unless he is able to burst the shieldbreaker down in seconds (which is impossible with a templar healer nearby or if hes a decent player) he will die, no matter what he does.

I am not saying counters shouldn't exist in the game, like healing debuffs, like aoes that pull nightblades out of cloak, like cp passives that make you deal more damage against damage shields, BUT hard counters, which simply kill a certain build in 99,9% of all situations ruin good gamplay.

I will probably hear these two things a lot so please let me answer them beforehand:
1) "But counters are good, you have to be SMAAART and tactical to use them, so you should win."
- My dear zergling, just because you run piercing mark, which allows your ZEEERRGGGG to chase down solo player nightblades, doesn't mean you're playing tactically. In fact such mechanics hurt combat tactitcs as there is absolutely no counter play to them.
2) "Sorcs are strong anyway, they deserve it when you use shield breaker on them"
- As I've stated above, this isn't a discussion on class balance. And once you use shield breaker, sorcerers become the weakest opponents out there, thats what the problem is. No matter how strong the class is, no matter how good your build is, a hard counter completely destroys all that.

Please let me know what you think

After reading your article and the all the replies id like to share a youtube video. And my only comment is. Okay so what the hell is this?

https://youtu.be/ygGm_JxMoYA

What's the problem here?

CavalryPK

I play exclusively magblade. Inhate mag dks and stamblades. Mark is a requirement in my open world arsenal.

Crom_CCCXVI

If someone is willing to wear "Shield Breaker" essentially sell out other damage options solely to get after a certain type of player, I suggest you learn how to heal and dodge (instead of just stack sheilds) and deal with it.

It really sounds like you think your build should be better than everyone you face, when I don't think the game was meant to be that way.. some matchups should be good for you, some bad... that or you think your solo build should be superior to a group in a massive war game built around sieging down castles and battles of armies?
I play a lot of Cyrodil, and I know the trendy think is to call every group of 4 or more a zerg. They have Battlegrounds, they have dueling for solo players to showcase their skills, Cyrodil should be and is dominated by organized groups. ( and they aren't all mindless "zergs")

gecimokus

Waffennacht wrote: »

gecimokus wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

I want to keep this thread very simple. This isn't about class balance, it is about hard counters to certain builds and why I do not think they should exist. Some of these hard counters are:
- Piercing mark/Detect pots
- Reflective scales
- Shieldbreaker
I'll try to illustrate the problem with three examples
1) A magicka nightblade, very skilled player, fights several enemies at once. He cannot tank all of their damage so he has to kite them and quickly burst down some of his opponents. Now there are 4 people on him and he tries to enter stealth, he uses shadow image to teleport away from the group and attempts to cloak but he has been marked, so the enemies see him, gap close to him and kill him. Nightblades especially magicka nightblades NEED cloak in certain situations, because they do not have healing passives and burst heals like templars, dks and wardens and they do not have extra shields or streak like sorcerers. There needs to be some way for nightblades to mitigate damage and piercing mark/ detect pots completely destroys that.
2) Lets stick with the magicka nightblade. We are using a staff build, our offensive skills are perhaps swallow soul/crippling crasp/flame reach and we run into a magicka dragonknight. All he has to do is keep reflective scales active, which is easy since it has a 4 second duration and we cannot do any damage to him whatsoever, anything we do apart from healing will only hurt us! A decent magicka dragonknight simply cannot be killed by this kind of build...should we just accept that?
3)A magicka sorcerer, using shields is fighting a templar healer. All of a sudden another player appears and starts light attacking with his bow. This player is using the shieldsbreaker set and oblivion damage enchants. The sorcerer is taking 1k damage per light attack and his only heal is healing ward (which takes 6 seconds to work, all the time youre taking damage tho) and ofc his other shields, so he has absolutely no way of healing the damage of this second player. Unless he is able to burst the shieldbreaker down in seconds (which is impossible with a templar healer nearby or if hes a decent player) he will die, no matter what he does.

I am not saying counters shouldn't exist in the game, like healing debuffs, like aoes that pull nightblades out of cloak, like cp passives that make you deal more damage against damage shields, BUT hard counters, which simply kill a certain build in 99,9% of all situations ruin good gamplay.

I will probably hear these two things a lot so please let me answer them beforehand:
1) "But counters are good, you have to be SMAAART and tactical to use them, so you should win."
- My dear zergling, just because you run piercing mark, which allows your ZEEERRGGGG to chase down solo player nightblades, doesn't mean you're playing tactically. In fact such mechanics hurt combat tactitcs as there is absolutely no counter play to them.
2) "Sorcs are strong anyway, they deserve it when you use shield breaker on them"
- As I've stated above, this isn't a discussion on class balance. And once you use shield breaker, sorcerers become the weakest opponents out there, thats what the problem is. No matter how strong the class is, no matter how good your build is, a hard counter completely destroys all that.

Please let me know what you think

After reading your article and the all the replies id like to share a youtube video. And my only comment is. Okay so what the hell is this?

https://youtu.be/ygGm_JxMoYA

What's the problem here?

The problem is my dear friend, there is no build against nighblades. As this video prrove it. If u know how to nightblade u cannot be killed.

Jawasa

@Crom_CCCXVI so mag sorcs should dodge roll every Singel la?

Ffs zos didnt post half the post. Well anyway they are probably only too strong if you stack with harness vs a magicka build.

HiImRex

I really enjoyed watching the topic of "why design and balance an entire class around an ability (cloak) upon which it is completely reliant to be efficient, and then add complete hard counters to it" quickly devolve into "you're just a filthy 1vXer this is an mmo go play overwatch if you want meaningfully designed combat" by a swarm of angry zerglings

Ectheliontnacil

@gecimokus

gecimokus wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

I want to keep this thread very simple. This isn't about class balance, it is about hard counters to certain builds and why I do not think they should exist. Some of these hard counters are:
- Piercing mark/Detect pots
- Reflective scales
- Shieldbreaker
I'll try to illustrate the problem with three examples
1) A magicka nightblade, very skilled player, fights several enemies at once. He cannot tank all of their damage so he has to kite them and quickly burst down some of his opponents. Now there are 4 people on him and he tries to enter stealth, he uses shadow image to teleport away from the group and attempts to cloak but he has been marked, so the enemies see him, gap close to him and kill him. Nightblades especially magicka nightblades NEED cloak in certain situations, because they do not have healing passives and burst heals like templars, dks and wardens and they do not have extra shields or streak like sorcerers. There needs to be some way for nightblades to mitigate damage and piercing mark/ detect pots completely destroys that.
2) Lets stick with the magicka nightblade. We are using a staff build, our offensive skills are perhaps swallow soul/crippling crasp/flame reach and we run into a magicka dragonknight. All he has to do is keep reflective scales active, which is easy since it has a 4 second duration and we cannot do any damage to him whatsoever, anything we do apart from healing will only hurt us! A decent magicka dragonknight simply cannot be killed by this kind of build...should we just accept that?
3)A magicka sorcerer, using shields is fighting a templar healer. All of a sudden another player appears and starts light attacking with his bow. This player is using the shieldsbreaker set and oblivion damage enchants. The sorcerer is taking 1k damage per light attack and his only heal is healing ward (which takes 6 seconds to work, all the time youre taking damage tho) and ofc his other shields, so he has absolutely no way of healing the damage of this second player. Unless he is able to burst the shieldbreaker down in seconds (which is impossible with a templar healer nearby or if hes a decent player) he will die, no matter what he does.

I am not saying counters shouldn't exist in the game, like healing debuffs, like aoes that pull nightblades out of cloak, like cp passives that make you deal more damage against damage shields, BUT hard counters, which simply kill a certain build in 99,9% of all situations ruin good gamplay.

I will probably hear these two things a lot so please let me answer them beforehand:
1) "But counters are good, you have to be SMAAART and tactical to use them, so you should win."
- My dear zergling, just because you run piercing mark, which allows your ZEEERRGGGG to chase down solo player nightblades, doesn't mean you're playing tactically. In fact such mechanics hurt combat tactitcs as there is absolutely no counter play to them.
2) "Sorcs are strong anyway, they deserve it when you use shield breaker on them"
- As I've stated above, this isn't a discussion on class balance. And once you use shield breaker, sorcerers become the weakest opponents out there, thats what the problem is. No matter how strong the class is, no matter how good your build is, a hard counter completely destroys all that.

Please let me know what you think

After reading your article and the all the replies id like to share a youtube video. And my only comment is. Okay so what the hell is this?

https://youtu.be/ygGm_JxMoYA

Really don't see your point. We all know proctard nightblades are broken but that's not what this thread is about , since its not cloak that makes them broken, its the stacking of proc sets and the ability of nightblades to time their burst.

And btw that's pretty mediocre gameplay footage, there's way better stamblades out there now...take a look at their channels and you'll see just how crazy procs can be ^^

Ectheliontnacil

HiImRex wrote: »

I really enjoyed watching the topic of "why design and balance an entire class around an ability (cloak) upon which it is completely reliant to be efficient, and then add complete hard counters to it" quickly devolve into "you're just a filthy 1vXer this is an mmo go play overwatch if you want meaningfully designed combat" by a swarm of angry zerglings

Hahah great comment!!!

Alucardo

tbf the only Wardens that really slot burst heals are support/healer ones. The mushroom heal is extremely expensive, and budding seeds is clunky to use and forces you to stand in a circle, which using your kiting scenario as an example, you simply can't do.
The only heals you really use are vines and healing ward. Playing a Magicka Warden feels very much like playing a Magblade without cloak and shadow image. They both have sub par sustained damage and rely on well-timed burst to take opponents down, and they both heal through offence while keeping healing ward up as much as possible.
Detect pots only last 12 seconds with quite a large cooldown. This gives the Nightblade plenty of time to kite using shadow image and mobility to outlast the pot.
Shieldbreaker is just lazy, and I won't defend that one. Even through its nerfs, reflective scales is still incredibly strong and I won't argue that's a pretty hard counter against non-melee magblades.
Stealth however, well, I can't stand it, sorry.